 thanks for joining us on a brand new episode of 420 grams as we are coming together today to pay our respects to arguably one of the greatest ever footballers india has ever seen the late chuniga swami who passed away a couple of days back and the way of paying respect to a footballer by at least people who love the game is by talking about him talking about his legend and what he's done on the field and also off the field so much so that what he did in the 60s and 50s still is spoken about right now in 2019 2020 and 2021 as we move along my name is arjun i'm joined by jaydhi basu sadahan rani as we will take a close look at chuniga swamis career not just chuniga swamis career because if we're talking about him then you have to talk about that team from the 1950s and the 1960s arguably the greatest ever team india has ever seen which has gone on to win so much at the international level but sir before we get into all of that jaydhi sir keeping in mind locked down how have proceedings gone forward as far as final rights and laying rest to chunisa yeah very unfortunately arjun it was a very very low key affair because of the lockdown and if you look at things in the last 40 days the city of joy has lost two of its greatest footballers and for none of them they could they could they could they could really pay their respect people couldn't come out and in and when it comes to chuniga samy it is very unfortunate that his body even could not be brought to the mohombagan club tent which is which has always been a tradition whenever a mohombagan or east vangal player dies who has played considerable for considerable time for that for the one of the two clubs his body is taken to the maidan at least in a i kept at the club for a couple of hours maybe an hour so that people can come and pay their respect but chuniga samy chunida's funeral is being attended by a only a dozen people it is it is highly unfortunate and very very unexpected had it been the normal time yeah we would have seen a huge huge crowd in in keeping in light the circumstances we're living in right now so how his club he's of course been a one club man which is unheard of in these days and he spent all his playing career in mohombagan what sort of a tribute have mohombagan given in whatever limited way is possible in these kind of mohombagan all all of them have spoken very highly mohombagan former players have see now all of them what can they do they can they can they can sit at home and speak on Skype or video call or whatever I think nobody could come out come out I think one of one of two people went to his house to his to to meet his wife that's all nothing more lot of lot of tributes have come but so far they have not been able to hold any any meeting or maybe after the long term they will hold meetings and all so overall it was a very quiet affair which in not not because of anything else but because of the as you said because of the current circumstances sorry I'm just going to move on from here any tribute that is really touching in the way it's been written or spoken about of all the tributes coming in lots of lots of tributes have come in lots of them are also touching but I I liked one by Balram T Balram Tulsidas Balram his colleague and one I liked by by another of his colleague that is Franco from Goa yeah who who described him as the golden boy of Indian football and Balram said one thing which I he has said it previously also several times but in the in the context of this particular incident he said I came to Calcutta to play I was in Hyderabad looking at him because in a national championship he played so well and he had so many fans he was like a like a matinee idol idol so I thought why not I also go to Calcutta and play like him so that one day people will be after him so I thought it's a great tribute coming from a colleague who is who is regarded as good as him yeah so basically Chunni Goswami had a part to play in that famous trio being formed for Indian football some extent perhaps yeah sir since we're of course talking about Mohan Bagan and what all he's done not just for Mohan Bagan but for Indian football there is one story because what you and Siddhanth did you got in touch with the great Subhash Bhamekh who's of course was a young cub who was starting off when Chunni Goswami was at his peak as far as Mohan Bagan is concerned and of course Subhash Bhamekh has then gone on and earned laurels playing for India he's also a celebrated coach and he's nurtured the future stars of India someone like an I am virgin and one story that really stood out from that conversation was when Subhash Bhamekh said when I was playing for a club in the Calcutta League and we were winning one-nil versus sporting union yeah sporting union one-nil versus Mohan Bagan but then Chunni Goswami decided to take matters in his own hands and he scored not one not two not three but six goals six one they finally beat them so that was the kind of conversation Siddhant and Jairi sir has had and it's time we throw to that because Subhash Bhamekh talking not just about Chunni Goswami but talking about Indian football and where the next Chunni Goswami will ever come if ever when Chunni Goswami last played for Mohan Bagan I played against him I was playing in a club called sporting union a junior and most team and that that match I scored a goal in the very few minutes the starting of the game and after that Chunni Goswami take the ring in his hand rather than in his at his feet and scored a hat trick and made there was a guy called Siddhant Darsh he is also no more there he helped him to score another hat trick so he transfer six one so that's from that onwards Chunni Goswami was our hero you answered me one thing I wrote after PK Banerjee's demise someone questioned if these guys PK Banerjee Chunni Goswami Barram they were born today they would have been as effective greats are always effective anywhere every year because today's generation the support they are getting literally the nutrition support the gym support the psychological support these days there was no yeah I will ask now since we have started with Chunni da with Chunni Goswami I will ask him to make a imaginary thing if I play in 4-4-2 that that that safe formation Indian football team I would I would like to see them play always but do put Chunni Goswami in the team and who should be with him in as as a kakas you were talking about only the attacking line yeah mostly mostly yeah yeah right PK Banerjee who would be the players around him yeah I'm right PK Banerjee left Tulsi das Barram in front of him in the thing just behind of him Chunni Goswami so there is no place for your favorite footballer I am Vijay and in the team no no no no no I love him like anything but these four names I took I am vision could score from a chance which is has got 15% chance but in that thing could score from no percent of chance in that thing could score a goal many years ago I remember at least 10 years ago you told me that if I if I if I make a make a all-time India 11 then I am vision I cannot think anything apart from I am vision yeah I am vision would be my team in my team in my team yes another guy you guys don't mention he was a player from 80s his name is Shudhi Chatterjee he will be also in my team so you have seen Chunni Goswami play you have seen PK Banerjee play I am playing against him I am playing against him you yourself you you yourself remained a very famous player and you played along with lots of famous players like in the same like like a lot of other other players and I don't know why not me mama yeah I mean by of course and what made you made you think the since you said a lot of things about the current Indian football what made you think that I am vision will still be there why because he has got all the talents but he was little behind of these four players he I am will be Biju will be always in my if you give me a 16 players like those there is to be more not more no more than 16 he will be in 16 if you give me 18 he will be in 18 someday he may in the in the in the thing is not delivering goods I have of course I love to be the course of this team and I will take in in that and put I am in that place this is a good option to have it doesn't cost it doesn't cost to dream my last question to you why why Chunigo Sami stand out from others on the pitch as a footballer many many things you answer me one thing we have heard in Indian football that he's like second journal Chandrashar Prasad modern number two we are hard no time within is a second Arungos people sometimes call me this is his second to pick up energy like his thrust his speed is shooting have you ever heard anyone is telling someone he's a second to me I haven't seen I'm hard his lightning speed with fabulous touch his peripheral vision and his shooting power his volley let me through you let I don't know how many of the viewers are there I compare him with anyone can laugh if you think I would have born today we're getting all this scientific support nutrition support all this shake multi-vitamins and I know what Sunil and all these players uses all all lists are with me Chunigo shami judge it do you remember the goal jinnabin jinnan's code for real against evacuation the second goal with that height the 10 5 foot 10 inches guy from his you have described it you have described from his from his shoulder shoulder length he took that volume it was a goal in a jibing ring final no less champions league final he I saw Chunigo shami day in day out to score from that height to take the volume and he used to in practice for few months one or two months he became coach of murmur and he wanted us to do all these things and when you could not deliver he used to laugh at laugh at us and say you guys are useless he used to tell him that if you could have done it then you would have been Chunigo shami we are not so Chunigo shami pick up energy all around general she didn't go she they were they have a rebirth and if I become as I could take main shops place my life would have been made so so was the so who are you we have been for the last one month we have been we have been writing and talking a lot about a lot of obviously a lot of obviously this and Pradipta and now Chunida everything and we are talking about things which happened 60 years ago close to 60 years ago 1962 is 58 years ago yes and as you as all of you have discussed we have heard from you all you people that how what do you call it how skillful the ball players they were how dazzling was their skills how good was their volley or their headers or their right footers or left footers or whatever and their success at the international level and then came the next generation where you people were there in 1970 Asian games you won the bronze medal and you had a you had a team forward line which was full of goals for us you yourself was a prolific goalscorer then it had Madan Singh it had not in the swing it had it had Amar Bahadur it had Shyam Thapa it had who's lots of players in the team and after that we saw we found it in the it was 70s then in the 80s then in the 90s we saw I am Vijayan coming then we Bai Cheng Bhutia coming why suddenly it has dried up can you please tell us 60 years so if we had so many brilliant ball players who could score goals at the international level with ease and regularly 60 years down the line why it has come down to only one footballer who can score goals at the international level in football there's there's a great man called Balaida Shadaji who on his own he created Chunigushan Mr. Bhagashom created Padi Banerjee Mr. Dasumitri Mitro created Arun Ghosh same as Mr. Balram was created by I intentionally am using this word created because they were born but individually these people took care of them and taught them the basic grammar of football so brilliantly that they were ball and then not separate in modern football in today's Indian football scenario I go to sometimes I go to so-called academies so called football schools I go and see there the coaches are directing the players I leave the ball leave the ball play one touch I just laugh at them and I call them sometimes stupid because man who can play one touch he has to have tremendous control over the ball these just coaches they don't allow to develop the personality of an individual player to have the ball under their control say that so that the boys the players got the mastery over the ball so the personality are not developed are not developed in a way I guess what what you're saying is we are looking at the we are concentrating on what the result that wants to be achieved without the process being in place of getting the individual players to that level I want to give an example I once asked you why you went from acquired this control he told me Mr. Bolaida strategy in a day is to take him is to take him from one ground to another ground for five matches to play him so let him play with small tennis ball rubber balls so that and always used to tell him you dribble you dribble but if and and when I start so he picked up like him those the stalwarts with those guys guidance they brought up in those process when in 80s I started a junior coaching camp from that coaching camp one Indian player was produced that his name is Susha Rukhi Jyadip must have known him that time he played for long time so he played for Monmangal but he played he played his major part in his team. Sunita used to come and see how I trained the boys he called me one day and said watch there that the boy who has got good touch and along with it you observe whether he has got that speed to carry that ball so that opponent once bitten cannot come in front of you which you see today's Rose Messi Ronaldo and Chini Goswami VK Venerjee Balram they used to like this my one of my experience at the new once Apollo team came three years back I was coaching the time Mount sporting team so we in Jamshedpur the match was played between Mount sporting and Sao Paulo that that team was not a professional team the amateur team under 23 team I was talking to the chief coach who through the whole night he was he told me that I don't believe that such a big country of your size cannot produce good football you don't do the correct thing what the process is on you don't have good grounds where you need lots of grounds so when I went when the in man with my small team to play against Lester City I saw the training ground had had at least 16 grounds there are training grounds for Saturday Sunday for the young kids where they are coming they are playing so that gentleman I forgot his name that famous coach he told me we don't do coaching we watch the young children play we allow them we allow them and we'll note it we have got 32 coaches we note it down what are the strong strong point we don't care about their witness weak point because we want to hone the strong points and he get he told me and not story fact he told me I am I'm sure you have heard the name of Kaka I said who is interested and that doesn't know Kaka well you know he was in one of those matches and after six months of his joining my old coaches came and told we must chop him up there is no chance of this boy to flourish I told them told them have patience have patience I said why you told him he said I could see that he's the introvert he's an introvert he's not expressing himself but he has got lots of talent but another six months time all of those coaches came back to me and told me said how right you are so we are we don't follow this process every can you tell me one place one club one every Saturday Sunday from the age group of 9 to 12 boys will come and play whole day in batches in groups you don't need a full round one round you may cut it into half make it two grounds 9 9 18 18 18 36 players playing one at a time after 30 minutes to change the system has to be incorporated our federation I'm sorry I'm always in a book backbook once once again I'm getting I don't care to be in that book all bunch of jokers sitting in that federation office license what is license license you need who doesn't know but license will won't help you to grow your imagination your productivity that your that eyes that doctors at clinical eye the clinical you can see and make it this guy he has got tremendous okay he doesn't tackle but his ball controls with speed he can dribble two three four players that's a that's an asset let's hone it all all coaches are coming out all like a b c d e g h up to z there's I go to and see hey this ball to the ball pass the ball pass the ball what is meant pass the ball if you cannot dribble you cannot pass this is the problem Sunil Chakri is an exception bhajil butia is an exception I am vision he is altogether exception Sunil Goswami was the first player to score 200 goals for Mohan Bagan he was also the second player after saabu maywal to score 100 goals in the calcutta league overall in the calcutta league he scored 145 goals now over the last few days I mean jerry best written a great story talking about his personal interactions with Sunil Goswami for news click of course and many other tributes many other stories have been coming out in all the major newspapers and all the football writers who've been around over the years have been writing about it and of course we've heard now by now the story of those magical years in the mid 60s where with Goswami and all these guys they were basically dominating Calcutta football and and the Grand Cup was one of the oldest tournaments is one of the oldest tournaments in the world actually I think the second or third oldest tournament in the world and historically the tournament was always held in Delhi it was the only chance for Delhi sort of football fans to get a glimpse of the greats most of whom were playing in Calcutta in those days and it was a favorite tournament of Sunil Goswami's and he deserved some of his best performances for them and in fact it used to be a bit of a tradition jerry you can correct me if I'm wrong but the president would come to the tournament and have tea with the captains of the final the two teams in the final during the halftime break at the final and Dr. Radha Vishwan was the president at the time and he seemed to have joked to Sunil Goswami that every time I come to have tea at this game I'm having tea with you so that was a sort of consistency with which that side was dominating the club scene in India at the time Mohan Bagan. So I want to come to you to go back to the origin sort of story and how Sunil Goswami got into the sport of football because we know also that he's a multi-sport basically an all-round athlete hockey tennis cricket and of course football so where did where did his football life begin how was he spotted and how how was he nurtured by Mohan Bagan and what convinced him despite being someone who was born in Bangladesh so perhaps had a national affinity for the East Bengal club but he spent his entire career at Bagan. So about that. Yeah, Sunil Goswami was of course born in Kishore Ganj in Bangladesh no doubt about it but he never lived there from this childhood he has he has been a he has been a Calcutta man so he was he and his older brother Manik Goswami. Manik da also played for Mohan Bagan for a short period he was a good footballer and all of you will remember Manik da for a different reason. Manik da was the secretary of the Bengal Tennis Association for a long time if you remember you have seen him in Davis Cup again and again a little shorter than Chuni da what whatever so both of them were playing where when they were youngsters they were in their early teens they were playing the Deshapriya park in Calcutta so and those those were the days when you don't have paid spotters great committee being formed to spot players to send but those those were the amateur days Mohan Bagan East Bengal all these big big big club officials they used to watch there was a lot of local tournaments and spot players so B.D. Chatterjee Balai Das Chatterjee was one of them which Subhas Bhomik was also referred in his in his year Balai Das Chatterjee played for Mohan Bagan for a long time he was a boxer he was a captain he was also a boxer he was a good athlete played for Mohan Bagan he was coach of India team on several locations Indian football team so Balai Das Chatterjee was in Deshapriya park was watching a group of kids play so once the game was over he called these two boys and said he what what is your name he said this boy he says my name is Chuni Gosamy and this is my elder brother Manik Gosamy then he says both of you from tomorrow onwards come to the come to Mohan Bagan ground I will I will take care of you and he he he contacted his father also he said let me take care of these two boys and Chuni Gosamy joined Mohan Bagan junior team from that day onwards actually Chuni Gosamy's what do you say elevation to the senior team was also very very very very I say interesting he played in 1954 he played his first first league match for Mohan Bagan he was he was only 16 at that time point of time he was drafted in the site but he never played because Runu Gotakutta was playing Sattar was playing Robin Patra was playing summer manager was playing all India players except for Robin Patra all are India players established India players and they were in inside forwards so Chuni Gosamy had no place a 16 year old had no place one day what happened I think Runu Gotakutta said he was in a he was he was working for court commissioners he had night duty he can't come he couldn't sleep and I think Sattar also had some problem and Robin Patra did not turn up so he was called a car was sent to his house and please come to the ground immediately he went to the ground and according to his his version he says Balayada was a was a great mother he was nurtured by Balayada strategy actually so Balayada everybody said you have to play Chuni today can you if of course Robin comes up Robin Patra comes up in time then it's all right but otherwise you may have to play the Balayada strategy told him put on the jersey he was hesitating he says put on the jersey I am telling you he put on the jersey it means Mohan Bagan tradition was if anybody puts on the jersey he can't be excluded if you have given him the jersey he can't be excluded when he put on the jersey then Robin Patra walked in and everybody said and Balayada strategy says but Chuni has already put on the jersey and everybody okay let him play so that was his start his start his start with Mohan Bagan so that's a very fascinating way of starting with Mohan Bagan so you know also it highlights the role of the mentor in you talk about any athlete who is way above anyone else so you will say supreme or sportsman skill level talent all of them will have that one mentor who's guided them through that very raw phase of life right that raw phase of life and I think in that in this in this in this case with Mr. Goswami it was Mr. Balayada strategy who if that conversation with Mr. Bhomek he also specified one point that Mr. Chatterjee and we've also spoken to Chuni Goswami's nephew he also said the same thing that he would take him on a scooter you take him all over Calcutta and you just make him play games and you fall in love with the ball and you fall in love with the ball then everything else everything else comes automatically to you and I think that is one of the things he was also pointing out Mr. Bhomek that that is the problem in today's coaching that is getting too structured hero wants the players to keep the ball one touch one touch kilo overlap karo formation make a lot of the ball running karo but if you're not going to be adapted keeping the ball only your balls have daroh gaye to have to mark how it is an arm or junior was also blessed with another thing he was he was a darling of the modern officials another man Birande who was the who was the all powerful general secretary of Mohanmagan form I don't know for how many years maybe 15 20 30 years I don't remember he was also the Birande was also the also the owner of the day's medical in Calcutta which is a very famous pharmaceutical company Birande was Mohanmagan secretary and Chuni Goswami was a darling of him and of course Chuni Goswami earned it because he was the best player on the team so so as you said to mentor if Balay the strategy was his mentor on the field of the field it was it was Birande because of these two people Chuni Goswami had all all the caliber I'm not I'm not disputing anything or taking the credit away from a by any way but these two also backed him to the all three scary also any it must be said man it was in an era that you know I mean and you're not moving around in fact and so Rokas and I used to be in Goa and even after I left and Rokas had been in Salgaonkar for close to seven eight years and whenever I would meet him what is the scene why you're not moving out what is wrong with you he's like I enjoy the stability but at that time to play Mohanmagan all your years and there's even a report that Tottenham Oxford had given him an offer to come and do a trial I mean that that speaks volumes about the personality not just the player right no so you see this happening only with a handful of clubs I think AC Milan I don't know about globally of course there are a few players who don't reach the international stature perhaps that someone like Chuni Goswami has reached you know local players particularly who do even now spend a lot of their careers with club like Yves Pengal Mohanmagan but perhaps very few that attract the kind of attention that some of these players do you know and and you look at I think PK Banerjee if I'm not wrong also spent his entire career at Arians he didn't even play for one of the he played for Eastern Delhi okay Eastern Delhi yeah Eastern Delhi he didn't play for big two basically yeah because he was employed with Eastern Delhi yes okay fair enough fair enough so so and globally if you look at it you know there's just a few clubs I mean maybe it used to be a thing back in the day but in Milan Bayern Munich has a few cases of course where players have similarly signed up for the youth team and then gone on to spend their entire careers playing for the national team some of them winning World Cups so but yeah it's definitely a rarity and in fact when we were doing that little selection game where one of the conditions was key you can't have two players that have played for the same club so some of these legends pop up there and I'm surprised actually oh in I'm surprised you didn't pick Chini Oswami in your squad really sir I was just talking I thought you want a serious world 11 okay but no no but generally since also around I mean I think we're gonna head into some conversation about his role with the national team and how the national team did over the years so just to lead into that if you can sort of give a give us a sense of around around that time you say truly a world 11 how far off were the best players in India from let's say the best players in Asia of the time thank you for speaking they were far far behind because I I know there was a in the mid 60s there was there was a what you call it Asian all-star team they used to make yeah in always a few Indians used to be there in the team in fact Genel Singh is the only Indian who has laid an Asian all-star team one Asian all-star team and I'm not very sure whether Chini Oswami was a part of it or not one Asian all-star team in the mid 60s played against Manchester United and the score was 6-1 in favour of Manchester United so you can always understand what was this standard of people in Asia there was there was a definite gap there is no doubt about it we may emphasize about it yeah just one thing so when he was playing in Mohan Bagan I've heard these stories also that he's been all tried very hard to get him to switch over officials from he's been all tried very hard to get him to switch over was there ever a case when he was close to leaving Mohan Bagan or I don't think so never never never it never happened first of all there are two reasons behind it first the first and foremost reason he was he was like a like he was like like a son of Mohan Bagan he knew the kind of support he gets in the in Mohan Bagan the kind of backing he gets from the officials which he will never get anywhere else everywhere he will remain a player but here he's like a that is one thing second thing is that foremost was of course his his loyalty towards Mohan Bagan that you cannot count out that is always there secondly there was one more thing there was not money involved in football goal states yeah the payment payment was maybe maybe what was the payment like sir maybe tuning or something was getting 10,000 rupees per year for playing for Mohan Bagan maybe 10,000 a year 15,000 would be how much in today's time like I mean that would be quite a lot I think 1500 per month is is a good money those days people salary was 200 rupees it was a good money but this way we're talking about what year are we talking about in the early 60s right mid 60s early 60s just to give a comparison mid 60s 1964 is when my father started his job with the government in the army and his first salary I think was around 120 or 130 rupees per month so that's huge money yeah 1500 rupees a month so if he was getting if he was getting 15,000 rupees East Bengal would have offered him 25,000 rupees not more than that so I don't think money was always a big deal it's not like the job he just was getting 9 lakhs in East Bengal and 60 60 lakhs in 80k it's not to sit on the bench yeah so the gap gap was never so much but again we must say he was he was very very loyal to Mohan Bagan that Mohan Bagan's five greatest players they always talk about that they are all greatest players whatever people say so all of them are basically because they never never left Mohan Bagan as Ghostopal, Sailan Manna, Chunig Goswami, Subrata Bhattacharya and Satyajit Chakrachy these are the five greatest who all of most of them have gone on to lead lead the country but always played for Mohan Bagan sir I think we've spoken about Mohan Bagan right now but it's also important that we speak about Chunig Goswami's time with the national team and what a time that was with the national team no matter how far you buy it you might be behind say somewhere like Manchester United and so on but I mean arguably no one can I mean arguably you cannot there is no point also that was the most successful period for the Indian football team period but from 1956 to 1964 the Indian team played 47 matches right now don't say that they play very few matches because at that time that was the amount of matches you were playing regularly they won 25 of them this is over 8 years 8 years yeah 8 years 47 games over 8 years and 125 drew 4 lost 18 but now this is the this is the one that really caught my eye in those 47 games they scored 102 goals that tells you about the attack line conceded 78 agreed because also the formation they would play and success rate was 53% so much so because of this the success in the field here is what all they've won Asian Games 1962 gold medal which we're going to talk about what they did in Indonesia Asian Cup 1964 when again Mr Chunig Goswami was the captain both these tournaments Chunig Goswami was the captain Mardukha Cup 1959 joint runners up and Mardukha 1964 runners up and just just just for some information for all our people watching that that famous trial Chunig Goswami PK Banerjee and of course Tulsi Ram Balaram Tulsi Das Balaram in whenever they would play together total number of goal they scored 13 by Chunig Goswami PK Banerjee 13 goals Tulsi Das Balaram 8 goals means 26 or 8 Chontas Gold in Tino Mardukh what an attack line that was and I don't know if we'll ever find an attack line like that and there's no point going down that route but so I think let's just start talking about a few strategies and no talk of that team can be complete without talking about the coach Mr Ase Rahim and how that team was say let's say 1960 Olympics 1960 Olympics may even though they didn't get past the group stages they put a good account of themselves versus Hungary in France but the coming together of that team was put from way before 1960 right and his practices and everything what he wanted to do yeah because I have spoken personally to most of these players of the 1960 Olympic and Sixth Equation Games team they all think their best performance was most of them think that their performance has has in 1960 Olympics has always been overlooked because they say Asian Games we were champions no doubt about it but we played teams against France and Hungary Hungary which were very very strong team and Hungary almost brought their world cup side for the simple reason Hungary was a communist country so there was no no no difference between professional and amateur players they used to play the same team in the Olympics and the Asian Games in the in the in the world cup because in their country everybody was amateur basically in fact so in the beginning the the world cup it took a while for the world cup to pick up and become the sort of pre-eminent football tournament in the world that it is now because the Olympics had football from much earlier and and before the world cup began so the the Olympic gold medal was actually probably for a long time the most sought after prize in football also no certainly or in fact in 16 at the Rome Olympics I suppose it's also in the neighborhood for the European teams no what I mean to say that that that none of the European teams apart from Hungary brought their professional teams like 1958 if you look at 1958 World Cup France France is the semi-finals but in 60 Olympics when India played France it was a completely different side that none of those professional players played in that team amateur players but very good players they played very important at this point is made we discussed about it yeah so Hungary is so all all these people say all these players used to tell me that our match with this Hungary and France were perhaps our best because we were playing against European sides and in against France we almost won we almost won we were I think the score was 1-1 if I'm not wrong India was leading by a goal and I think one mistake by Amar Bahadur in the top on the top of the box it was a mispass or something they got the got the equalizer so 60 all Arjun actually in 1952 Olympics India lost to Yugoslavia 10-1 yeah and Mr. Rahim was the coach that day he he made a made it a point now he will he will build his own site which he started building from the 54-55 so 56 Melbourne Olympics then 58 Asian Games semi-final Melbourne Olympics semi-final 58 Asian Games semi-final there are 59 Mardek runners-up 60 Olympic good show after qualifying India play India won the pre-olympics and then went on to qualify and which culminated into 1916 situation against Goldman to show he started building his team from 1955 50 for 455 onwards and he brought it down to 1962 it took him many years to seven eight years to build a perfect site for this so he he actually predict that told me once that when he was when we were leaving we weren't they were mostly practicing in in in in at the Ghosemal stadium in Hyderabad Hyderabad she said when we were leaving we're about to leave in a day or two he always used to tell us this should bring us the gold medal because he believed now the team has really picked and this team will win also also any i'll get you into it because possibly even though they lost that game versus Hungary till date if you go back to people who were covering the game and possibly part of the game they're saying this was probably Indian football's best ever performance over a period of 90 minutes the game which they played versus hungry 21 Jovo Harim and interestingly this is the pure example of why you need an Indian coach because he understands your players and he can get them to move mountains for you because that communication is there and that trust factor is there so Rahim Saab in fact was Joe yeah formation with the three to five he had taken it from the Hungarian sides that was so successful at world level just imagine watching the game I'm bored because body school right out right in left in left out everyone is sticking to your position and playing must have been such an exciting time to watch football yeah and you can see by the number of goals that this is international competition where if you look at things today in total in these 47 matches between what India scored and what they conceded it's almost 200 goals yeah so that per goal average yeah or at least something exciting I suppose in many ways the goal is the pinnacle of the excitement that you can have in a game right so the climax yeah like that ultimate moment when your teams scored I guess it must have been something else to watch these sides play and I don't know if you so what do you talk about earlier about this Asian all-star 11 playing against United and losing by 6-1 maybe there are many factors involved I guess those players didn't play together ever man united must have been a well oiled side at that time the team that when England won the World Cup in 1966 we can always understand what kind of team man you use and another thing another another very pertinent point you have you have picked the Asian all-star picking up was a haphazard I think no which you were talking about in the context of Rahim Rahim's up picking his own squad right because so Rahim had a had a had a had an advantage because he had that that he even even in Friday he used to tell people this advantage I got because he used to be the secretary of the Hagrabad Football Association also so he had a boat in the air anyone who has a he was not only the coach he was all he was an executive committee member member of the federation and a boat in the federation so it used to be there used to be problems there used to be problems but he somehow managed to and I have heard I don't know that he was a very pragmatic people if he taking 18 players he will take 15 players of his own and one or two he might say a little see There was no overconfident competition for us, so we had 2-3 extra spots where back up players should have been there, instead there were these guys who were, you know, along for the ride, anyway. I wanted to ask about one game, if you have any knowledge of this game, this is of course before this time. But because we were talking about sort of national sides playing against European clubs, after the 48 games, London games, the Indian team apparently went on a bit of a tour and one of the games they played was against Ajax, Amsterdam. Which of course we all know as one of the probably best academy sides and one of the top clubs, I guess, in Europe. And that game, the Indian side won by a massive margin. Do you have any sort of information on this game? Yeah, I have. The thing is that India went on touring a lot of places at that time and that Ajax team was an amateur side. They always played against amateur sides. They never played against, because if you... I will give you the source of the... While writing my book in 2003 on Indian football, then I went back to the library and a lot of places and a lot of backup sites found out. They were all amateur matches for Europe. But at that time, Mewala scored a lot of goals. I think he came back from Europe scoring around 40-50 goals, he scored by that time when he came back. But they played good football. Sir, I am bringing it back to 3-2-5. How did 3-2-5 operate? I mean, I am thinking that you are playing 3-2-5. And the other team, if you play 3-2-5 with Hungary, the people you have taken this formation from. And because also the thing is we must say that our statistician Mr. Botombrouy has helped us a lot with this. So what he said at that time, you stick to your positions. So if you are playing 5 forward, then your defensive duties, you don't need to come back for defensive duties. So in a sense, the 2 midfielders and 3 stopper backs that you are playing, they have to handle your defensive duties. And maybe that's a reason why so many goals were being scored as well and conceded. Because that numerical advantage per se would always be with the attackers. Yeah, that is true. And if you are asking how it happened, I can tell you that it took time for Mr. Rahim to adopt this system also. To start with, to start historically, in 1954, when the quadrangular football tournament was held in Calcutta. So that time India had a coach. His name was Albert Flatley. Albert Flatley was not exactly the national coach, but he was appointed by the National Federation to look after all the teams and everything. But Mr. Rahim was the coach. And according to Amal Dutta, the former coach who was a member of that 54 team, Amal Dutta also played the 1954 Asian Games. That Amal Dutta told me that Flatley said, let us switch over to the 3-back system. But Mr. Rahim did not like it. And he overruled Flatley. And it has been a little too much for both of them. But Mr. Rahim had to say that I have at the moment 2-back system I am playing and the 2-backs are Azizuddin and Silen Manna. They are all time defenders. If I switch over to 3-back system, the kind of movement they have to do, which they will not be able to adopt. So he brought back the, he finally switched to 3-back system from the 1956 Olympics when Salam played in the middle. And later on, if you were talking about the 1966 Asian Games, a lot of changes which you were talking about. That time Trilok Singh and Chandrasekhar were playing the 2-wing backs. So they were adept to the system. So Rahim also did it according to the availability of his players. He did not push the system from top. He saw whether he has players to adopt to the system and he went according to that. So you brought it up in 1962 because now in 1962, Rahim has changed his formation and he has taken cue from Brazil at that time. But he is going to 4-4. Yes, there are 4 defenders in the middle. By God's trust, those 2 were your midfielders because they had to do all your work in the middle. So they had to have your engine of a lifetime. And then you had your 4 forwards in which 3 of which were of course Mr. Chunni Guzmami, P.K. Banerjee and Mr. Balaram. Sir, and you know, some crazy stories also. Like you just said that Hyderabad used to have a camp. They have a camp for more than a month in Hyderabad. And Rahim sir has not given them some plush place to stay. He used to stay in the stadium near the stadium. And there they have a camp where they have a good camp. They have a strong camp. And after that he has sent them there for Asian Games. On top of that, I think it's pretty well documented that India was not giving them enough foreign exchange because of some economy issues or something. However, they did not get enough foreign exchange. I think it was not allowed. Foreign exchange was very tight. It was not allowed for anyone to go there. The allowance was very little. No, eventually they were asked to drop a number of players and take a fewer number of players and move ahead for the Asian Games. After that, they went there because of political tensions from the Arab states and from China. So there was something that did not give ID cards to teams from Taiwan and Israel. And one of the Indian officials spoke against about it. He was part of the Olympic Committee as well. And ever since he spoke about it, he was sent back home to India. And the entire country, press, fans in Indonesia, they were against the Indian team from the word go. So what we say is that finally it was such a tough affair because you had 80,000 people against you. They were used to it by then. Because throughout their Asian Games journey from in 1962, the crowd had been against them. The press had been against them. So in a sense, if anything, I think it got them even stronger. Because I don't know if you agree with me that you are playing the tournament well. And then suddenly you meet the final. And everyone has appreciated you throughout the build up to the final. But then come the final and you have a hostile 90,000 crowd that is jeering you everything you're doing. And that can really throw you off the rails. But if you've been used to it throughout the tournament from the start, if anything, you will be stronger by the time you get to the final and you could see what they did to Korya. The team they lost 2-0 to at the opening game. They needed a job, and fortunately it came in the very first match. That was it. Fortunately, it came in the very first match. So, I believe Chunidha told me that Rahim was very upset, he couldn't take the defeat in the first match. Then they made some changes, Arjun, I think Arumanigam was kept out, whatever changes he was talking about in the formation and everything, that formation was changed. Janayal Singh was sent up. Janayal Singh was sent up in the semi-final because not before that against Vietnam only when they played in the semi-final. Actually, in the semi-final and final they played with a three-back system. If you look, Trilok Singh and Chandrasekhar were playing the two side backs and Arun Ghosh was playing the centre-back, he was a lone stop-back because Janayal Singh was moved up for this. So, a lot of changes he brought in between. See, like Prashanta Sinha, Prashanta Sinha did not play the match up for semi-final. Rambadhu was playing with Franco and Rambadhu, I think, fell ill. There is a story which I am not sure how much right or wrong, Rambadhu said, I am not well, so he was asked to take rest. Rambadhu found out that Rambadhu was dancing to a tune in the radio or something in a room or somewhere in the village. So, he was so upset, he said, he will never play this game again. So, Prashanta Sinha came in place of Franco and Prashanta Sinha and Franco played the semi-final and final. So, he made changes in the team as and when it is required. Of course, his biggest challenge was to play Janayal Singh as a withdrawal centre forward, which really clicked, which clicked in the semi-final, which clicked in the final. It was a huge thing, definitely. So, whatever he did, he did according to the situation, he never had a static idea in mind, which you said is a sign of a good coach. He was not sticking to the idea which he brought from India. From match to match, he was looking at things. And you talk about the three up front, Ani, and how different those three top players were. Say you talk about Chunni sir, and you say he is adept at dribbling, taking on defenders, putting them under pressure, good with both his feet. Then you talk about PK Banerjee, he was such a direct player and he was such a strong shooter of the ball. Both his feet, again, he could shoot from distance and he had power in his shot. And then you add the guy who used to bind them together, Balaram, probably the most intelligent of the three, especially in his off the ball movement and his moving. So, they often say that you have three players, so one player who does selfless work, where he takes your markers away, he moves the defenders for giving you space to then move in. And that was what Balaram used to do for this striker moving forward. Another player Arjun, who is not often spoken about, he was like what you say, like was Revelino in the 1970 Brazil team, that was Yousuf Khan. Yousuf Khan was the key factor of the team. And Yousuf Khan's biggest asset was, he could play in ten positions, literally he could play in ten positions. In Hyderabad City Police, he has played from right back to left out, all ten positions in the pitch. So, Yousuf Khan was also a very, very key factor in the centre line. With the three, of course, these three were the star of the teams, because Yousuf Khan was also Rahim Saab's one of the, what do you call it, Cog in the Will. Final question, I think, whenever we talk about that team and people like us who follow football, of course, no Jarnayal Singh and his contribution to the game. And the qualities that he used to possess. But I don't think he's been given his due by, I don't know, the rest of the community or the rest of the country, at least. As far as what he was, the type of Indian player that he was, which was so different from any of the other players, who was silky, who was smooth, who was skillful. But here you had a powerful guy, you had a guy who was aggressive, you had a guy who used to play with his heart, man. He has played Asian games, he has played with the stitches. There are stitches in between, blood is coming out, he is running away, I have a teammate like that. So, after seeing him, I will turn on the game from the inside. Just to get a sense of Chunni Goswami, the person, and beyond the superstar, what I did was I did get in touch with his nephew. His name is Supriya Goswami. He's also a pretty well-known sports producer. He's worked for channels like Star Sports. So, we worked together. And this was my conversation with him and how he was reliving some of the times that he spent with the great Chunni uncle as he used to call it. My father says that his first memories of my uncle would be when my father was in class 6 and he was in class 10. He was around 4 years elder to my father and those days in Calcutta, you had used to call it a height tournament. There used to be a cut-off mark, 5 foot 5, 5 foot 6, and anyone below that could play that tournament. He didn't allow anyone to play that tournament. My uncle used to take my dad over there because my uncle used to think of him like he was, my dad was his palace man, lucky mascot. So, my dad used to accompany him and he used to take him and my dad used to watch him play. And my dad says that even then, I was like normal stuff for him which he would do years later when he started playing for India and more and more. But even then, class 10, he was about 15, my dad was about 11. He was brilliant when it came to dribbling. So, those are my dad's first memories. My first memory is to do with cricket because I was around about 8-9 years old when he came to Jamshedpur. And that's when Tata Football Academy started and he was the first director. So, I still remember meeting him for the first time and for the second time. He asked me, what are you doing? I said, I have just started playing with the leather ball. So, he says that playing the V for the first few overs. When you do that, you can frustrate the best of the bowlers. So, those are my first memories of meeting the great man. And the amount of cricket you've covered now, play in the V still holds true. So, any top quality batsman you play in the V, then you know he's a top quality batsman. Exactly, exactly. The one thing which my dad says was that, and I don't know if you can drop parables with someone like Sachin Tendulkar is that Tendulkar played a lot of matches while growing up. Thanks to Ramakanth Arshaikar. Arshaikar used to make him sit on a scooter and Tendulkar used to go from one ground to another ground. Another ground in Bombay. Play a lot of matches. My dad has a very similar take on the way Chuni uncle grew up. He used to travel to just about any place in Calcutta to play football tournaments. There was nothing as practice. I guess the whole practice thing came much later when he joined Mohan Bagan. Then obviously the national colors. You had someone like Saeed Abdul Rahim who was such an inspirational figure then the coach. But for starters, my dad's take was that growing up. And he never restricted himself to first say proper Calcutta town. He lived in Jodhpur Park, which is South Calcutta. And my dad, we lived in a place called Agurpa which is North 24 Pradhanas. But my uncle used to travel literally the length and breadth of Calcutta just to play football tournaments. It didn't matter who the opposition was. There was no money involved. Just the passion of the game and play matches. The one thing he was very accommodating. That's one thing that has stayed with me even after all these years. Obviously growing up, we didn't know who he was. We knew he was Chuni Goswami. But the stature of the man, we got to know much later. So growing up, class 7, class 8, we used to meet him and we used to give our gang about what we thought about football and this. He would patiently listen. And then he would present his point of view. Even the first few years when he came to Jodhpur, late 80s is that he used to come to our place. You had friends coming. Everybody used to give gang about football. He used to listen. He used to give his point of view. Like I said, very accommodating. He was always willing to listen to what others had to say about sport first say football. And then he would silently present his point of view. So Kuruksu, could I ask you, when a man talks about football, you kind of get a sense of his ethos and how he perceives the beautiful game, how it should be played. And there are so many different ways of playing the game. There's no one correct way of playing. Did you ever get a sense of what his approach to football was then? The one thing that remains with me after all these years is he never spoke about his method. It's just that my dad, my other uncles in the family, they spoke about how brilliant a tribbler he was. And he could shoot with both feet right and left. It happened that often, equally strong of both feet. But my conversations with him about football, primarily I would say mid 90s, late 90s, his take on where the game is going. And that, when I think of 20 years later, I think it's quite astonishing because whatsoever he said then, mentioned then, I think is very much relevant today as far as modern day football is concerned. A bit of insight into that conversation. What was his take on football then in mid 90s? His take as to where the game is going, if you ask me, because if you look at Indian football, then we had already gone down a fair bit in the pecking order. His first take was you have to be strong because if you are not strong, you will not be able to hold on and quality opposition will blow away. Forget about Europe, South America, Asia itself will get blown away. So his first take was that people need to get strong. I remember in one of these conversations, one of our family friends was there and he went to the extent of saying, Guys, we need to start having beef because that is how we go strong. And he was like, beef, what are you saying? You want to get strong because that is where football is going. Second thing, which again has stayed with me after all these years is that you need to have a pair of eyes behind your head. So if you look ahead, you are going nowhere. In our times, we probably played like that. But now the way I see the game, two eyes need to be here and we need to watch what is happening. We spoke about position play then that people need to hold on to their positions. You can't run helter-skelter. Oppositions will just roger you. You need to hold on to your positions. And the other thing which used to be quite fascinating when he used to talk with my father, because my father also played for Mohan Bagan B, they used to talk a lot about off the ball running. I don't understand it. But after all these years, when you watch and when you understand, these for me are the three-four things. Strength, two eyes behind your head, hold on to your position and off the ball running. These are the three-four things that I think even then, mid-90s used to talk about. So if you're just getting away from Chunigo Swami the footballer and Chunigo Swami the person in the public eye, what sort of a personality was he rather? You said accommodating was one. Any other traits you would... The other thing for me is that big, wide, big massive smile, grin bolo, smile bolo, however you want to label it. That stayed till the last day. Even in his last days, there was a slouch, walking me, chalne mein dikkat hoti ki, but that smile stayed till... He would make people feel at ease. That is how I would have put it. A lot of people I have seen in front of me go and get them said, introduce to him, talk to him. I think he had this knack of making people at ease. Obviously, I've seen people in absolute awe of him. And I think if you look at that era, I think that is when... It's probably the faggant of the aura of Mohan Bagan and East Bengal. Started in the 60s and 70s, 80s, 90s, and he was like one of the poster boys. So people had seen him in places. They were in awe of him. He would make people at ease keep. No worries. I'm here for you. Right guys, so we are wrapping up the show. Sir, on the field, we talked a lot. It's been more than an hour. But off the field. He was a fan favorite. He was always a very accommodating personality. He's always been very accommodating. In your personal one-on-one interactions with him, because both Siddhant and I, we've met enough sportsmen, gone on to do interviews and all. And let's be honest, not all of them are the most accommodating personalities. Many of them just come and say, come here and do whatever you want to do. What was the interaction with Mr. Goswami like during your time as a reporter, of course? Mr. Goswami had always been polite. But as I wrote in my article also, he will not suffer fools. What I have noticed when a journalist goes to him, instead of a journalist assessing him, he will assess the journalist. Whether this man knows enough about football, whether this man knows enough about me, if he thinks this man is serious, he's doing his job properly, he will talk with him. Otherwise, he will dismiss him very politely after a couple of things. This I have seen enough times. So I won't say he was rude. But if he was aware of the status of his standing in the football circle, I don't blame him. He was, isn't it? That's true. Siranth and I can warrant it, that when we've gone to do interviews with post-personality, and they're looking you up and down like this. And within the first two questions, you know whether that personality has judged you or not. Do you know, brother? Have you been with him, sir? No, not at all. Yes, it happens, it still happens. Homsomely, always being judged. Always being judged. They're a tough life. Alright guys, I think that's the end of our conversation. We hope you enjoyed the show. As we were paying respect to the late Chunni Goswami, one of India's finest ever and part of a team that has possibly go down as India's finest ever, at least as we're speaking right now. Jedhi, Basu, Siddhanta and I. And to Mr. Subhash Bombay and also to Supriya Goswami, thank you so much for taking our time and joining us on our show. And also a shout out to Gautam Roy, who provided us with all the stats and info with the team that was playing in the 1950s. And of course, a Mr. Goswami's time in Mohan Bagan. Until we meet again, thank you so much for watching. It's been a while. Goodbye.