 All right, well, I guess we'll get started. This is a talk about cultural shift and change and some of the things we've done at all state with branding and identity around how we're driving cultural transformation. I call this the feely talk because this is not really a technical talk. It's really about organizational behavior, how people identify with brands and and how to amplify your enterprise transformation. But I want to talk a little bit about myself. My name is Matt Curry. I'm the director of cloud engineering over at all state and my business card actually says super fly cloud guy because that's what happens when you give somebody like me a free and Open-text field on their first day of work to order business cards. So I'm gonna kick this talk off. This talk is a little bit of a narrative about how we're using brand and identity to drive cultural change and enterprise transformation at all states and I'm gonna start off by talking about how companies and enterprises grow over time and how they develop processes and how we've ended up in this place where we have a moral imperative to change because decision-making isn't fast enough for us to adapt to the current business environment and so I'm also gonna talk then from there about how the current all-state brand is impacting our delivery model and and how we interact with people in our internal organization and Then talk about how a small group of us came together and formulated some outcomes that we wanted to drive towards and then built a brand and identity around those outcomes and some of the learnings and success stories we've had along the way So if any of you remember last year from Andy's it knees keynote one of the things he really hit on was that We're we're driving transformation into all-state and we've had some challenges around the speed of decision-making Because everything that we do is grounded in this idea of actuarial analysis And I think Doug actually hit on it during his keynote just now as well, which kudos to Doug. He did a fantastic job and I want to kind of think about that But I want to think about it in a broader context Because all-state and the insurance industry aren't the only ones that actually Struggle with the problem of being able to make decisions quickly It's a much broader enterprise problem most large enterprises are dealing with this challenge And they're trying to deal with it with a variety of different ways And if you go back and look at the infamous Netflix culture deck There's about five or six slides in there that deal with this issue in a really interesting way Where they bring it back to this idea of it's all about how companies grow and evolve and scale over time And I'd like to review that with a little metaphor So when a company is new and small and agile, it's like a speedboat life is good You're going really fast flying by the seat of your pants. Woo-hoo. We got beer beer in the koozie and we're rockin, right? and as We see growth and success in this model The business model starts to get more complicated It starts to show a little bit of chaos that needs to be controlled And so one of the simplest tools that we have at our disposal in order to control some of that chaos is to implement a few simple rules and When we start implementing rules and we're early in the life cycle of developing our company They don't really have a huge impact because usually early rules are tightly aligned to our core values And that's really important. Also, they're small in number and they're fairly easy to navigate But as we grow and scale we find that We accumulate layers upon layers of rules and over time they start to weigh on our organizations and Before long we need a larger vessel And so now we have tools like committees to help us navigate this complicated Ecosystem of rules that we've created and we're trying to figure out how to do that while maintaining speed and agility But at the end of the day, we've basically made that trade-off We've made the trade-off of a facade of security and help and predictability for this idea you know and this idea of centralized control for Losing agility and losing our ability to pivot or rotate or take advantage of new business opportunities as they present themselves And what we ultimately end up with is a boat that we're like Hey, this boat can go pretty fast as long as we don't have to turn like but as soon as we have to turn We're basically screwed so If you think about it The rules were tools that we used to build and scale our organization There were things that enabled success early in the life cycle of organizational development and then over time they become the wrong tool to continue that scale and they start to get in the Way of the things that made us successful so before long rules and rules accumulate and We move from our nice little pontoon boat to the big river boat with now with having to tap into new tools tools like Governments and and more committees and layers and layers of rules and it becomes very unclear For our internal employees as to how to navigate this ecosystem Who's in charge of making the decision who isn't in charge of making the decision? Why am I going to this meeting where apparently nobody's allowed to make the decision? But I have to go anyway like I don't understand this This is very confusing. I don't really know how this ties to the outcome. I'm trying to achieve and so this is the backdrop of how we Came to end up in a in this place where we have a moral imperative to change You know Andy talked about speed of decision-making speed of decision-making We have a moral imperative to change to make sure that we can take advantage of new business opportunities as they present themselves Tying back to his talk. I believe he discussed about how the insurance industry is ripe for an uber-like disruption Rewind 12 months ago. Yes, that was absolutely the case rewind now to Fast-forward to where we are today and dug hit on Connected car is a real thing autonomous vehicles seem right around the corner We're seeing more venture capital come into our industry than we've ever seen before so Absolutely the threat is real the imperative is real We have to make adjustments as to how we deliver and so as we came together as a group and started to decide how to Navigate our current world and what we needed to do to change we decided that the real answer was decentralization of decision-making and for those of you in here who are Computer nerds. It's basically like parallelism at its finest. It's like hey Us engineers had this figured out a while ago a few leadership would have just come and talk to us We could have told you how this works, right? So so we're we're employing Organizational parallelism in order to drive Closeness to the customer better decision-making and scale and what we ultimately end up with is Spreading our crew across a fleet of speedboats that are founded on this idea of values behaviors and outcomes in order to drive consistency in How they deliver? And as we were developing this we started to understand our existing Situation a little better. We had a lot of conversations both internally and externally about the challenges We had in our operating model on how we're delivering IT services and over time something that became more and more apparent to us Is we had this challenge of a singular brand identity? you see You'll see our The the icon up there and all of you know us by good hands and mayhem and we take care of our customers And we protect them from Nate mayhem and we provide them with safety and all of those things are absolutely critical and important however at the same time all of those Ideas and behaviors in the aversion from risk had sleep their way into our delivery model and our we had an IT Organization that was built around this idea of we must protect the enterprise from any and all risk and Ultimately what that ended up in was a delivery model that was yeah, not very risky, but it was also really slow and really challenging and really difficult to navigate and so We decided when we came together that we needed to define some outcomes that we wanted to drive We really wanted to talk about How engineers develop innovative software how we how we drive Engineering best practices how we move with speed how we do experiments in order to test if our products are good ideas or not and And build a brand around the emphasis of those ideas now that doesn't mean we lose customer focus It doesn't mean that we're no longer taking care of our customers But it's a different emphasis for the engineers that we're relying on to innovate and get creative about building our next generation of products So it's really easy looking back with 2020 vision to kind of say hey We had all this insight to begin with this was really interesting We totally knew what we were doing, but that's absolutely not the case like we had absolutely no idea what we're doing We're all huddled in an office trying to figure out okay We want to write better software that sounds like a really great idea Let's start there and as as we're talking about what that means with tightening feedback loops and driving continuous integration and Doing things like extreme programming and pairing we said well We actually have to assign a name to this thing because it's actually bigger than any one of these principles Like we can't really just call it extreme programming because that ignores the lean product design side of what we're trying to deliver and we can't really just call it pairing because It this goes way beyond pairing and and there are pieces that we're trying to implement that are bigger than that So let's come up with a name for this thing and we landed on this name called compose labs and I want to talk a little bit about how we ended up there so Because all state is like many other enterprises we have this interesting Fascination with acronyms where we believe that anytime we name anything it has to be an acronym and so our Original ideas were built around things like idea labs and ideal labs and adept labs These are acronyms that mean something that I couldn't tell you what they mean today And I think if we had introduced them not a single person in all state would have been able to tell you what they meant 12 months later, so We said you know Maybe we need to take a different approach to this thing What we really care about is embodying the behaviors and the ideals of a Silicon Valley startup and transplanting that within our Organization, so we love this name composed because we it gives us visual indicators of you know An orchestra with a conductor and all these people working in harmony to build something That's of a greater good and then going on the nerdy side of it We talked about hey, we can have fine-grained microservices and start to compose these things together To uncover new business opportunities and new models that we can start to develop and index on and experiment with That could really unleash the next level of innovation for us It also did not hurt that once we changed the s to a z legal gave us approval to move forward So it's really interesting because you know the composed brand is is Emphasized on this idea of speed and moving fast and iterating quickly And then you've got the all-state brand of safety and it'd be easy to say like yeah Let's just keep those things completely separate and not and not have them integrated in any way And we've done that a little bit, but we really wanted there to be a certain sense of harmony between the two We kept some of the color parallel elements from the composed brand We made sure that it didn't look super awkward sitting next to the all-state logo because we really Wanted to highlight that these two things are complimentary Composed as an engine that empowers all-state all-state is an incredibly powerful brand that has a lot of meeting with our customers and with the general public Hmm and so we've built this symbol and this symbol has deep meaning for us You know we indexed on pairing and on the shape of the hexagon Which basically symbolizes like a beehive and and all these individuals working together and in a in a cooperative and engaging way to build something that's better than each individual and This symbol became an emblem or a flag for the change that we were trying to drive and Really the fact that the change is touching every piece of our organization And as we were going through this and iterating we said hey you know what would be cool is if we could put powered by all-state underneath that logo and Needless to say corporate communications was not super-duper excited about that idea like not even a little bit And they were like well if you change your logo to the all-state logo, then that would be cool But they had proposed a number of compromises. They were actually very pretty open-minded They had proposed a number of compromises which Involved you know dropping the symbol and lower casing than Z and changing some fonts and color schemes And at the end of the day we had to bring it back to the outcomes We were trying to accomplish and say hey if we make these changes does this still feel like a Silicon Valley Thing does this still embody those behaviors does this available that still feel like a technology brand? That's driving innovation experimentation. We said no, okay, so what we'll do is we'll make minimal compromises So that the all-state logo can exist in the same state as the composed logo, but you know We won't actually Make a lot of these broader changes that would allow the two to be tightly integrated with each other We'll still keep them somewhat separate So as we sorted all this out we started to create t-shirts, and I don't know about what you Guys and ladies know about engineers, but they love t-shirts It's amazing what a t-shirt can do to get people excited and galvanized around a route around a cause You know the symbol is something that folks started to unify around People in the organization would see somebody wearing the t-shirt and they would say hey where did you get that t-shirt? I want to wear it and you know t-shirts aren't super duper expensive I mean it was a really great tool for us to start to bring people together and circle them around Something that was centralized in order to have a conversation about transformational change Which is a hard topic for a lot of people to swallow and so it was really that conversation starter I think the other thing that's interesting is all state being a Midwest company Most people do wear button-down shirts and like dress really formally and When the company buys you the t-shirt for some reason you're willing to wear it to work I don't know what's with that, but as we're trying to drive a more casual atmosphere a more collaborative atmosphere around open feedback and and really taking into account Empowerment and collaboration we found that to be something that was really helped move us forward towards our objectives And everybody was happy and dancing in the street. We had a flash mob in the middle of headquarters. I'm pretty sure Is it was great? But our work wasn't done right so we had to clarify this model and we had basically originally Incepted this whole composed idea around. Oh Like it's all about the methodology and then as we developed it we're like oh my gosh, it's not about the methodology It's about everything. Well, let's clarify that because we're not going to call it composed everything. So We broke the program down into three basic pillars composed labs the composed methodology and the composed platform And so the labs was the physical location. This is the Defibrillator for our culture these are the changes in the environment and physical location that we're going to allow people and Enable them to act and behave and work and deliver differently And so those were the the big original changes. Those were very visible people started to see these changes take place We started ripping down cubicle farms and standing up these different locations and Everyone was like what the hell is going on here? This is craziness And then we talk about the methodology and how we believe in hardcore engineering and test-driven development and doing Continuous delivery and tightening feedback loops and things like dev ops and you know Everybody gets excited about the words, but then when they realize that it's actually going to change their work Maybe they're not as stoked on it And so we spend a lot of time talking about why we think this is key to success why we think you know Integrating quality into the process of building and deploying software is absolutely critical to be able to iterate quickly and And we've still had some holdouts around core systems where people say well My service is too strategically important to the company for you to like test drive it or like build automated tests which is a Challenge we try to be empathetic to that but it's roughly equivalent to say like I'm really great at driving blindfolded I kill a very predictable number of pedestrians on my way to work Like why on earth would I take the blindfold off when I can just keep doing what I'm doing and like it's to a day It's not that bad so And then on the platform side we've built a platform and we've built Cloud Foundry is the center of our platform, which is why this talk is relevant for this summit But we've also built a bunch of services around that platform as we've gotten feedback from our developers one of the biggest services we built early was identity and single sign-on we found a huge need as Applications had users that needed to bounce between our Legacy stack and and the new Cloud Foundry stack and we wanted that to be a seamless experience Where the all-state customer actually wouldn't know that that was happening and that was transparent from them So we spent a lot of time engineering that and then of course on the run side of actually making your app Operable we have things around application performance monitoring and log analytics as well as Push notifications for mobile and a few other services Communicate communicate communicate if there's one lesson that you take away from this you can't do enough storytelling and communication We created a website a central landing page for people to learn more about what we're doing We do track engagement metrics on it. They're not great offline conversations Can not replace one-on-one conversation guest speakers showing people how to do this It's a great mechanism for getting people into the pipeline and starting the discussion But it's not the end-all be-all and we've built a blog a newsletter a number of learning resources into here And we're seeing more use over time However, again, we really find that the more effective Effective engagement mechanisms are things like hosting events hosting lunch and learns Presenting at meet-ups and inviting colleagues works really well because then you're presenting out to the external community And we have expanded our reach into the external community like I said Traditionally all states been very internal facing we've done some things that are different as many of you know We've joined the Cloud Foundry Foundation That's a huge step forward for us in participating in open source in a more active way in addition We've founded the Cloud Foundry meet-up group with in Arizona, which is now a hundred members large Just and it's only maybe a year old, which is fantastic. We're seeing a ton of momentum there And we we use that to shore up our message and to give us a platform for The message that we have to carry about the cool things that we're doing as well as to interact with all of you and find out what you're doing around platforms and culture and transformational change because we're all In this together. We're here to drive change and drive transformation and bring our companies Into the modern era together We also clarified values and we had a few people that put together This composed manifesto and I thought it was really clever and it was really well-branded and they did a great job I mean it in and of itself is a piece of art and it really hits on the core behaviors that we're trying to drive You see things on there like deliver as early as possible and foster learning and empowerment Those are key values and what we started to do is we actually started to say well What are our rules and I don't know if any of you were paying attention to the beginning of my talk? But that was a bad idea So this is not about rules. We're saying this is about values There are implied rules here, but what we actually care about our values and outcomes We care about respecting your pair and respecting your team and trying to get better and always putting the user first and continuously learning and We made cooler t-shirts and people got even more excited, right? These t-shirts are awesome They make people look like superheroes. That's why I'm wearing it so I can feel cool and You know, we saw even more momentum when Andy would give his all-hands He would wear a hoodie and t-shirts. I can't tell you what having a leadership leaders stand up in front of an organization with a hoodie and t-shirt does to Cultural change it is absolutely Amazing it all of a sudden makes it okay for everybody within that organization to participate in that change And it's not something we see very commonly today And I think it's something that all as all of us as leaders should do more of if we're really serious about our teams Participating in this way PowerPoint slides do not change culture changes in behavior change culture T-shirts are hard We learned that a lot. I can't tell you how many different t-shirts from different vendors we printed and we probably threw a few away Along the way, but it was really important for us to make sure that the quality of something even as simple as t-shirts was Import it was important to us It was a representative of this brand that we were creating it We were treating it like we were entrepreneurs of this company if people are going to look at this symbol and think about what we're doing We wanted it to be of quality and that meant that we would get feedback from Individuals of all sizes and all genders in order to figure out how to get this right because we got it wrong a lot And you know, this is one of those ways It's a simple thing, but it's one of those ways that we consistently Live the behaviors that we're trying to get the organization to participate in As we're iterating through this thing and it'd be very easy to be very dismissive and say oh, it's just t-shirts We spent x number of dollars and we don't really want to redo the work because we've got all these t-shirts that nobody wants to wear But it's really important to send that message of we care about the quality We care about doing right by our engineers and our ux designers and our pms We want them to feel like superheroes and we want to create clothing that's comfortable for Diversity like we want this whole environment to feel welcoming to anyone who wants to participate And so there's nothing that will kill your culture faster than hypocrisy And that's one of the things that's really challenging with rules because you can only accumulate so many before at some point You have contradiction hitting you in the face Then we took branding even further and we started to brand catch boxes and these are like these little pillows with microphones and then we throw them around during stand-up so we can do global stand-up and We decided to put the compose logo on there obviously because we brand everything that we do and we get people excited about what we're doing but we also put this beautiful just say no to waterfall logo on there because That's what we're about like It all waterfall will exist at all state for a while, but within the composed program We apply agile methodologies to anything and everything that we do and it looks cool And I want a t-shirt with it on there so that I can wear it, but You know it was really a way to introduce fun and like You know you throw the catch box to somebody who's new into the environment and they look at that And I'm like I can't believe somebody let you put this on there And we're like they kind of didn't like we just did it anyway So as we've evolved this over time we realized there was a need for the composed accelerator program a training program for internal employees to expose them to the platform the methodology and the labs and It was what we found was really interesting benefit is we said oh we just need something to shore up our skill set But actually cultural and transformational change is much bigger than just you need the skills to do test-driven development And what we found is by putting them in the environment exposing them to the platform and teaching them the skills of the methodology That culture was reinforced for 12 solid weeks stay in day out And we found that it really helped us accelerate the transformation by the end of this year I think we'll have over 250 developers developing against the composed platform It is fabulous momentum considering that I think we started the year at less than a hundred So we're seeing that doubling factor. We're seeing growth. We're seeing it organically and we're super excited about it Composed changes the game You know as we start to embrace these behaviors as we start to look at our talent pipeline holistically We used to treat campus recruiting separate from we're going to recruit from other companies separate from we're going to recruit At community event XYZ and we actually had like different people running those things And we've actually started to internalize some of that and say, you know The whole talent pipeline is a strategy and we need to lean on our existing developers and resources in order to help Us recruit because they're going to be the best vocal advocates of what we're trying to do And it's really funny when you interview engineers. You're like, yeah, we're doing agile. They're like, uh-huh and You're like, no seriously like and they're like, uh-huh. Sure. You are all-state. Whatever And so it's really important for us to have that advocacy because The developers can stand in front of their peers in front of their peers in the community and say hey No, this is real. We are really doing this My boss put a meeting on my calendar that says don't go to meetings like that's a real thing that we did and The developers love it because they are connected to the value that they're delivering and they feel like they have meaningful work This is the first time we've changed Everything Literally we are changing everything. Nothing is out of scope for this program. We're touching real estate. We're touching HR We're touching application design and customer focus Many of us have been a part of change programs that touch one of these items or another But this is the first time at least as all-state that we've touched all of it And it's the reason that we've seen such momentum and success thus far Nothing is out of scope and I think we see some groups kind of like cowering away like please don't like touch me Like go away leave me alone stop spreading this crazy agile stuff and so It's been really powerful and and you know like Doug said the role of the management and the leadership layer has really been just unblock unblock unblock Take feedback on how we can be better how we can enable these distributed teams to be empowered and collaborate and learn and Go do more unblocking at every layer no matter what it takes Lessons learned iterate quickly. So like I said when we started out, we had no idea what we're doing We still maybe have no idea what we're doing, but we're pushing forward and we're learning a lot as we're going Communicate always I hit on Communications and the website that we built and how important storytelling is it's why I'm here telling you this story because people in my Organization will watch this on YouTube and send me nasty notes about all the things I said that I shouldn't have said And constantly be inclusive right so we got to be empathetic. There's this bimodal challenge Where like I think Bridget calls it Awesome mode and sad mode like it creates this dichotomy of Competition and resistance and that's really not we're trying to create like the people in your legacy stacks are really proud That they re-platformed their What like it took them ten years to wrap what re-platform on the web sphere like they're really excited about that That was amazing accomplishment and you can stand that back at that and throw stones But you really need to be empathetic and start to understand it and really see like okay Why did it take ten years like what what are the learnings here? And let's build a shared purpose around going and like making this easier next time Because I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want to do that again either Understanding incentives, how do we incentivize people? How do we make sure the environment is conducive for them to be successful? How do we make sure that they get public notoriety and kudos when they go out and give public talks when they live the behaviors? We want to see you know obviously changing performance management within a company the size of all state is super challenging and we're not there yet, but we do everything we possibly can whether it's through little gestures or Personal emails or taking teams out to lunch in order to try and reinforce those behaviors And actually it's those little personal things that make a much bigger difference than getting an email from the CTO who someone's never met That says like hey congratulations like I don't know. Here's a sock or something I don't know what you know some some willy-nilly gift. That's very impersonal and kind of disconnected So that personal high-touch is like really an important part of this and like getting to know people in the human aspect and Really kind of understanding like how this stuff evolves And then living the culture at all all levels you heard me hit on when at the start of my talk about Nothing will kill your culture like hypocrisy. I'm gonna repeat that again because it's absolutely true I mean that's the challenge with the rules which says oh we have a rule that says you can't ride scooters because they're tools of vehicular destruction and you're like oh maybe not so much you're like well That's really interesting like but we you give us bikes to ride across the parking lot because the buildings are so far apart And that doesn't really seem particularly safe either and they're like oh it's cool like if you get killed outside That's all right But if you sprain your ankle inside then we've got a problem Hmm So this is my mission statement. This is our emblem. We're composed. We're serious about building software craftsmanship We've galvanized around this symbol. We're changing everything and We're super excited about The cultural change that we're driving and being a real software company within all state. That's all I have. Thank you so All state is a big company. You guys have a compensation structure similar to all the big companies You have a base and a bonus and all that. How do you change your performance evaluation structure and the process to match with the Cultural change you're talking about. Sure. So I think like anything you have to iterate into it So there while your performance and compensation structure is something If you have buy-in at least at the local organizational level You can definitely have conversations about how you rank people and make sure that as You're ranking individuals and as you're going through the performance management process If you say hey this person is a top performer Can you stand back and look at the values and behaviors that you want and say that that person embodies those Because if the answer is no, they're probably not a top performer And that's a really hard conversation to have with your peers But it's a conversation that needs to be had and then furthermore Usually there are small bonuses and tokens of appreciation Like I said, you have to use those to your advantage as you iterate into the larger conversation with HR and Compensation and other teams to really make meaningful impactful long-lasting change question just wondering how much and you know Internally have you guys like people not being on board this and the attrition rate I did your guys turn over increased because some people just couldn't make this a Shift to a more dev-opsy agile type environment So we've seen some It depends on the group I'll say that it depends on the group We've seen some increase in some localized increase in attrition in certain cases Where we've tried to make the shift more aggressively and folks have said this isn't for me in most cases We've been able to locate them positions elsewhere in the company or within another teams but we've also seen the opposite effect where Somebody will engage in a conversation with their team a waterfall team That's maybe not ready to make that transformation and usually what happens is one or two of the top engineers step forward And they say actually I want to do this like can you help me find a job in a team that's actually going to do this Because I want to participate. So it's kind of an interesting dynamic It's kind of a shuffling of the piece on the plate a little bit right now You know there are certainly some people who've opted out but you know, I don't know if that's Just they like going to meetings all day long and sitting on the phone. I mean some people are kind of into that, right? Programming engineer, I know that you learn well while pairing on the job Is there a reason why you guys chose to have a training center? So spend eight ten weeks training the engineers So the training center why did we choose to have a training center is the question? Because it was Important that we helped people get comfortable with pairing because none of these folks had ever pair program before In fact, many of them haven't programmed at all in a very long time. So it was bringing their skills back up to back up to snuff and Communicating patterns that are that are now well accepted that maybe five to ten years ago weren't things like 12-factor Application architectures and what our best practice is for how to do release management As well as like getting people short up on test-driven development Which if you haven't done before is a different mindset and a different way of thinking So we felt like wrapping the training around all of that would help people To adjust a little bit more seamlessly Are there nice talk? Hey quick question on coming from a communications My my communications interests and what you're doing put up a little slide there I talked about getting real estate involved getting a couple of other groups involved I wonder where are you with going outside of your developer team because There does seem to be this danger of making this an either-or thing cool not so cool And you don't want to do that. Yeah, like what are you doing? Are you doing stand-ups? Are you doing Tuesday talks? What are what are some ways that you're actually talking to other teams in your own team? Yeah, we do all of those things. So we're doing stand-up in Tuesdays We don't do Tuesday talks, but we do lunch and learns things like that community events We still battle what you're talking about right this is the core cool team the awesome mode versus sad mode thing Or you know, I like to call it bridging the bimodal gap, right? So bimodal drives this wedge in your organization and it's a terrible terrible thing And so it's really about empathy As developers come over they tend to reach out to their friends that they've been working with for a long time and kind of Spread the message and say hey I and you know Doug talked about the frozen middle and that's where we see a lot of the Misinformation come from because they're trying to protect like Hey, I don't want to come off as the bad guy for not letting you go agile because as Doug said like the engineers want to and so there's this hesitation kind of at that frozen middle level and the Way to manage through that I guess is just to kind of use the interpersonal relationships and direct communication as much as possible We're trying to get better at it What we've started to see is where we have Business level buy-in where our business partners are bought into what we're doing and they're starting to see the difference That those leaders who've been unthought so to speak are starting to have a discussion about how they transition their entire portfolio into this way of working so the The transition becomes more of how do we integrate it back in? But we're very careful about the fact that we don't integrate it back in too quick because What we found is that if we start to do that then the corporate culture like Doug said with the gravity It will suck you back in and next thing you know You're integrating with teams in your organization who are going to meeting you to death and want you to prepare 8,000 architecture diagrams to like change a print print line statement So yep Have you guys had success bleeding some of these practices into other departments like IT security The business the larger business as a whole architecture Yeah, so We've had It's been interesting from an architecture perspective the role has changed a little bit To more of a consulting role early on and then maybe if if we need architectural leadership They get plugged into the dev team like we're very insistent on this like hey Whoever like architecture security real estate You know risk and governance We're not gonna show up to some meeting that's scheduled once a week that you're gonna only show up to like half the time Like we're not gonna waste everybody's time that way if you want to have input into how we do this like Give us a person and we will transplant them into the team And we will be happy to Represent that interest and we've had a lot of success actually worse just starting. I'm really excited. We're just starting on a tool to allow us to automate the provisioning of firewall rules, which is like Not a thing and we've managed to find a partner within the security organization was like yeah This can be done and like I'm really tired of working weekends And so like let's let's do this and he's been a great partner. He's partnered with our developers And again, it's putting each other, you know getting in each other's shoes And he's like hey this I don't like this this doesn't feel secure and we're like hey We don't like this this feels like a terrible customer experience Like maybe we can meet in the middle and like figure out how to work together, right? All right. Oh and more in the process of change you have for the the engineering and the developers What have you done to help your business partners get better and more focused around requirements and not having You know a three-year six months design phase. I Think that we're in the beginning stages of earning credibility And I think that was really important like we had to start this journey knowing that we had lost Credibility with the business on our delivery and know that we were gonna catch up and get to the place that we needed to be so that we could then go have the conversation we're talking about that you're talking about and We have a couple strategic business areas where we've started to have that conversation and we've started to orient it around metrics How do you how are you seeing? Whatever they call the the pirate and if you call it pirate metrics the our thing Which is like adoption and I can't remember what they are But anyway, there's some metrics about you know, how are you driving business value into your products? And those are the conversations we want to take back to the business partners because That's a value like hey We delivered this in MVP in eight weeks and guess what nobody wants to use it So like let's just kill it and like let's go do something fruitful But that's a tough conversation to have when you they're used to you taking nine months to deliver anything Two quick questions one can you quantify the difference between? The compose team and the rest of traditional IT and then even Gartner likes to talk about this bimodal You know systems of records systems of engagement concept any other thoughts about how to try and minimize that us versus them mentality I have a couple thoughts. How do you want me to quantify it like people count? Oh? That's a tough so whatever what percentage do you I'm looking at Linda what percentage do you think it's about to? Yeah, right Yeah 200 out of 7000 So it's a very small percentage but Yeah Yeah, it's leaps and bounds like I said, it's the doubling effect and then on your question about bimodal. I think awesome mode the people who are in awesome mode have to go after Optimizing legacy systems because as you build new systems they'll have dependencies into the legacy infrastructure and you can't have your agile team waiting six to eight months for a test environment from your Waterfall team and so as you start to create that bridge and actually do things to help people in sad mode they become Mildly upset mode Well, that's it. I think I'm out of time. Thank you for all your questions