 from Ontario Tech University. And I already presented him this morning. Akira was formerly dean of students in this university. Now he's professor in energy and nuclear engineering. He has very impressive list of his achievements and history and he works at the many organizations and is different. I met him, by the way, more than 20 years ago in GNC, which now, J.A., now in Mita, in Japan. First, for the first time, after that he was working in different organizations and now he's a professor in Ontario Tech University. He published numerous number of scientific publications, more than 200, and he also prepared more than 45 master and PhD students up to for today. Okay, Tokuhiro-sensei. Ah, last but not least, he is a member of Women in Nuclear Canada, actively contributing to increase the role of the women in our nuclear engineering. Also as me, by the way, I am a member, I am a contributing member. Means I pay a fee of the women in nuclear in the IEA and we, again, together with Akira, working on the increasing influence and role of the women experts and women professionals in the field. Okay, Professor Tokuhiro, please go ahead. Yeah, thank you very much, thank you. Let me share my screen. I hope I get permissioned. Can you see the? Yes, yes, we can. Can you see my presentation? Okay. Make a full screen, please. Good. Yeah, yeah. If you make it full screen, or probably if you first make a full screen, then share as a full screen, because now we see your... Ah, I see. Make full screen and... And then share as this window. Ah, I see, full screen first and then share. Okay, is that okay or no? I think it's again, again, this PowerPoint window. Now maybe a problem. Can you see the slide? The first slide? Okay, please go ahead with this one. Yeah, let's go ahead with this. So thank you, thank you very much. As Vladimir said, we met maybe almost 25 years ago. So I'm happy to be invited to give this talk today. And sorry I could not be with you. And thank you for people who are in person and online as well. And thank you to Professor Kosalawa about... We were talking really about module one and being very smart and aware of all the things that are going on, especially in this year 2022 with nuclear and renewables and hybrid energy systems. So I will speak a little bit about hybrid energy systems and this is just an introduction. So if you have technical questions or non-technical questions, I'll explain that in a minute. Then please email me. I just wanted to give you a short introduction in about 40 minutes or so. I just want to cite my co-authors and another professor here, Filippo Genko and Mustafa Ciptioglu who's just finished his master's degree last week. So thank you. Okay, slide two, just you can check my profile on LinkedIn. This is just a, I hope the slides changed. This is just a career summary of people and institutions above the diagonal and then the reactor concepts and the countries that I've worked in that I've had a very interesting career. Just this year I was very lucky to teach at the World Nuclear University Summer Institute in Spain. So, all right. So to start, this is really a talk about nine electric applications of nuclear but first of all, I'm going to focus more on the nuclear engineering, nuclear reactor types. But you know that there are applications in isotopes and medical isotopes especially. So just want to give you. Akira, Akira, I don't think slide does move, could you? Maybe you. Okay. Maybe I had to, am I sharing the slide? Is it moving? It's to start. Okay, next one. Is it changing? Non-electrical applications, it changed, but. Okay. I believe you have two windows. One is full screen and another just small screen. Power point. Oh, let's see. I would say, okay, maybe try again. Stop sharing and now start sharing and share a window with a full screen to avoid confusion. I learned this this morning, hard way. Share this one. Okay, what do you see now? Do you see the applications of isotopes? No, we don't see full screen, we see like. Oh, we see, do you see the full screen now? No, we don't see full screen. It's still the same because. Oh, I see. To make full screen, but it doesn't show. It shows still because it's to share as a win. Okay. First you make full screen and then you'll have two windows. One this window and another with full screen. And then when you start sharing, you share the one with full screen. It's like you. So now, do you see? No, this is, I believe now we see the desk. Oh, now, yes. Okay. Now you see the slide applications. Yeah, please click hide. Please click hide and you will see. Do you see the slide? Okay, now you see them. But yes, we see perfectly. Okay, do you see the isotopes? If you click hide, Akira, if you click hide here in this. Oh, yeah, yeah, okay. Then we perfect, now perfect, please go on. Okay, thank you very much. Thank you very much for the input. So when we talk about non electrical applications, I should first start where the history of nuclear engineering or nuclear energy and radiation science. It started with radiation science. So just, I'm not gonna talk too much about that, but I just want to say, in summary, there are over 700 radio nuclides with half life longer than 60 minutes. And the 60 minutes is important because if you, 60 minutes really is related to the half life of the radio isotopes, I think you know. And you have to apply many times the radio isotope in industry or in medical applications before the isotope disappears, right? So you're using it for imaging or cancer treatment and you have to use it within the half lives of the isotope. So a couple of six days, a general one that I wanted to give as an example because in technetium 99 metastable because those can be produced using the nuclear reactor, but you have to, when you use a nuclear reactor, you have to put it in the reactor and you have to take it out and you have to deliver it to the application. So you have to think about that. And I just list the Wikipedia because if you have a cell phone, you can have access to Wikipedia and that's a good starting point. It may not be completely accurate, but it's a good starting point for many ways, for many people around the world to look at the information that's contained in Wikipedia. Maybe sometimes in French or Russian or Spanish in your own language that you're able to read the same article. So that's the power of Wikipedia. So, okay. So I will talk mainly in this presentation about non-electric applications, small modular reactors and renewable energy sources. And based on my mostly US and Canadian experience, we go back to 2005. We thought, we looked at the US, looked at this next generation nuclear plant NGMP or very high temperature reactor, PHTR, with a gas-cold reactor operating at very high temperature and then a hydrogen production facility. That project started in about 2005, went to 2010, it was suspended in 2013. And one of the technical issues that you should remember is the regulatory or what I call the non-technical aspect, the regulatory aspect, can you have a hydrogen plant, how close can you have the hydrogen plant to the nuclear reactor? Can it be side-by-side? It really depends on the regulator and that's an important point to remember. And we haven't really resolved that issue. So, and at the same time, there were other high-temperature gas reactors, HTGR concept. South Africa had a Westinghouse pebble bed modular reactor, Arriva had the Antartis high-temperature gas reactor and General Atomics GA had a gas turbine modular helium-cold reactor concept as well. And again, it's like the Wikipedia is an example, there is an article in Wikipedia about next generation nuclear plant. So, there are just two images of the concepts at that time. It was quite a bit of engineering in R&D but it stopped in 2000, essentially fully suspended in 2013, stopped in about 2010. Now, I just want to go back to what Professor Kostalov said about beyond the NGMP and VHTR initiatives, we now have in 2020 or 2022 SMRs and we have the IAEA booklet on advances in small modular reactors. We also have the OECD, NEA, small modular reactor challenges and opportunity. And if you have access to your cell phone, there are two applications, one called GridWatch, one called ElectricityMap GridWatch. And these are apps that you can download on your cell phone and they give you essentially the live data of the plants that are operating and the carbon footprint in that particular region or country and GridWatch is one for Ontario. It gives you the energy portfolio for Ontario, Canada and tells you the footprint. And I think from looking at the carbon footprint of many different countries, I think the emerging reference is about 100 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour. Lower than 50 grams would be much better. I saw that in Germany, it was 790 grams. And that's because you're using coal power plants. Ontario is typically sometimes less than 10 grams but typically 10 to 75 grams, about 60% nuclear in Ontario, Canada, 30% hydroelectric and about 10% natural gas and renewables and we don't have any, we have closed down all our co-plants. So look at, if you have time, download the GridWatch or ElectricityMap, those are very nice apps to get a live, to get real live data. Okay, the references there are the IAEA and the OECD and EA. All right, so issues and challenges. I can give you kind of low, medium and high just to make some comments. Remember, this is the Awareness Module, one type knowledge. We talk a lot about digital twins and they require high performance computing resources and although national laboratories or laboratories, research labs have access to high performance computing resources and likely to be a substantial use of these because it's not available at the engineering or technology development level to react to vendors, right? So although it's an exciting field, you have to remember there's a difference between research versus technology development and something related to the previous conversation about competencies and modules. We talk about thermohydraulic concepts that are now dated and we need to maintain the knowledge or preserve the knowledge and there are fewer and fewer universities, at least in North America, teaching courses or modules about fast reactor theory, sodium and look at metal thermohydraulics, fusion reactor concepts and turbine history and I think the bottom line is that knowledge preservation is very important and also those of you who are younger may need not need books but we used to learn many things using textbooks and some of those textbooks are out of print or many of those textbooks are out of print and disappearing. So although you can find them on Amazon, they become collectors items and they become very expensive, right? So you know that they have been out of print for many years and they become collectors, so items. So the fourth bullet here is the constant price of technology solutions, the return on investment ROI, the global supply chain and the disinformation, misinformation in the shared communications world that we live in with social media and of course we have many examples of polarizing G7 level geopolitics. So you have to have awareness, all these things in promoting nuclear advancing the need very much, very much the need for nuclear energy. Okay, not in any priority or order. I just wanna stress that it's a non-technical the financial aspects or the sustained investments relative to the progress of completion of the SMR design and engineering is important. The lack of, or the regulatory review and approval, if you have a regulator and the approval of a design is important in North America and new scale SMR is still the only one that has nuclear regulatory commission approval and there are other, of course, national initiatives and that's very important in operating, constructing SMRs of any type of own design and then there's un-clarity or uncertainty about the export of the design. It may be built in one country but the export policy may be a non-technical issue and unclear. So how many SMRs do we need? We have about 425, 430 nuclear reactors. If you look at a model climate change and for example, maintaining the temperature rise to 1.5 degrees, we need something on the order of 4,000 to 8,000 nuclear reactors, small or large. So there is a large number of reactors that we need. How many, how soon is really the question that you have to ask to be to show awareness of what the challenge, technical challenge will be and then differences in recognizing differences in the funded approach in North America. We tend to look at the commercial sector and getting the funding for this expensive technology nuclear energy, nuclear reactors is very difficult. And then technical and partially non-technical is that we don't really have a reference design like we have with light water reactors, pressurized or bonding water reactors. And for example, the IAEA SMR simulator does exist but the probabilistic safety assessment or risk assessment model for this does not exist as far as I know. Okay, now hydrogen, there's been a lot of talk about hydrogen, excitement about hydrogen this year. In social media, there's talk about ammonia as well. Remember, ammonia is in some of your basic chemistry. Again, looking at Wikipedia is not, ammonia is not an energy carrier. It's a toxic gas and it's cyclic efficiency is very low in that, less than 20%. In order to produce, let's say 10 kilowatt hours, you have the, you have the electronis, the Haber-Busch plant equipment costs, new standards, manufacturing investments for tankers, loading, offloading facilities, fuel cell and gas turbine needs. And you just may get, after all that, only other, your target is 10 kilowatt hours, you may only get one to two kilowatt hours, right? So at that efficiency for that whole entire process. So you have to keep that in mind. And then, and remember that you may have endothermic or exothermic reactions. The thermodynamics is important, but the chemical kinetics really can determine the time scale and the use of catalyst is important. And now, if you use catalysts and especially nanomaterials, then you do have a supply chain issue. Do you have the catalysts and are they available in sufficient quantities to control the chemical kinetics? The thermodynamics may be favorable, but chemical kinetics and the use of catalyst is very important. So there's potential depletion and a price demand for these typical catalysts like platinum, nickel, rhodium, and other catalytic materials. And I saw a post as an example in social media where we tend to share our technical and non-technical information, just like in Paul Martin who wrote about ammonia and the cyclic efficiency of ammonia and that it's not an energy carrier. Okay, so, yeah, so let me talk a little bit about the investments and financing challenges. There's the technology readiness level. Also, it's in Wikipedia. You have nine levels here. We need to talk really about a common technology readiness level. There's one by the European Commission. You start at level one, the basic principles, and then by level nine, you're talking about approved with an operational environment or TRL-8. Systems complete and qualified. So you have to think about this in terms of, it's not just designing the reactor. You have to be cognizant of all the things at all the TRL scales. And we have that in other fields like the aerospace industry that are large scale as an example. All right, now, with startups and financing. I won't talk too much about that, about this, but if you plot the revenue versus time, and we have a lot of startups all over the world, startups cannot, and the startups on the right are the ones that have failed. And the reason for that is you need constant need investment, good to take the first step, the second step, the first step. In order to finish the design, initially you're doing it really out of pocket at your own cost. And although people who think of startups, you know, they want to maybe want to start up and eventually sell and retire young, or you may want to help humanity and undergo financial hardship, but getting to the end, finishing the design and engineering is very important. Okay, so, and for that, you can only make as much progress in your design and engineering as you have sustained investors. So that's the point I want to make with this slide. So there needs to be awareness of that, that reality, if you work in a startup financing cycle with investors interested in investing in technology. Okay, just a word about regulation. This is really critical also. I'm sorry about the resolution on the slides, but there is a harmonization movement that may take, gee, you have to ask how many years will it take? Can you agree with all these different types of reactor? What is a nuclear reactor? What do all different concepts have in common? I would say, for example, that you have to have reactivity control, you have to have a core and fuel, but the core can, for example, in the molten salt reactor, it doesn't have to be stationary, it doesn't have to be solid, right? So we have to agree internationally in terms of regulatory and technical agreement, what is a nuclear reactor, okay? So we still have quite a bit of work to do there, but it really cannot go fast enough. Okay, so let me talk about now the technical issues in coupling SMRs to renewable systems. Here's the envisioned co-location of an SMR and concentrated solar power plant. This is, we looked at this, you can think of adding a wind to solar photovoltaic and energy storage, but we looked at this first and I'll tell you the reason why, and this is for both electricity production and hydrogen production, and we use a concentrated solar power plant using molten salt so that you could have a higher temperature, in this case, a hydrogen cycle, a copper chlorine cycle, and the dotted line, the reddish-brown dotted line is the side boundary, and as I said before, can you have a regulatory guideline or a rule that the hydrogen plant can be, right next to a nuclear power plant, a small modular reactor in this case, because otherwise you start to lose efficiency through heat losses. If the nuclear plant is located in one place and the concentrated solar power plant or a solar alternative or renewable energy plant is 10 kilometers away, that means if you want to use any of the thermal energy, then you have to have a thermal energy pipeline, essentially, that's 10 kilometers, you're going to lose heat, so it makes sense to have the renewable plant, especially if you're using a thermal energy only one kilometer away, for example, and are you allowed to permit it to do that by regulation? Okay, so this is the simplified plant that we modeled, my professor Jenko and my master student, Mustafa. We looked at, of course, using the CSB, the copper chlorine cycle, if you use a gas-cooled reactor, you may be able to go to an iodine, sulfur iodine or iodine sulfur cycle, a higher temperature, 900 degrees, and you have essentially here two different kinds of power convergent energy convergent systems, one for the CSB, one for the nuclear power plant, and then you're supplying both thermal energy, electrical energy to a copper chlorine cycle that operates as depicted. And yeah, you may be able to, you have kind of a de facto energy storage through the hydrogen, we didn't look at that, but you could use an emergency diesel generator, not an emergency diesel generator, but emergency hydrogen generator, so that the nuclear power plant could operate in an island mode or isolated from not needing the external power, electrical power from the external grid. Okay, so the main challenge here is really an intelligent control system with a quasi-steady output from the nuclear power plant and coupled to very much a fluctuating output from the CSB or renewable source, okay? All right, here's just the types of reactors, a spec sheet on the outlet temperature which may determine the hydrogen production cycle that you may use. Of course, you can use electrolysis and just use the electricity as well, and the numbers, the references, the numbers are in the thesis that I'll be out in about two weeks, I think, officially to the public. So these are essentially the generation four reactor concepts, and with each one, you can imagine coupling them to a renewable plant or through energy storage to produce hydrogen and electricity. Okay, here are the applications, the different reactor types and different mostly heavy industry applications, methanol production, coal gasification, blast furnace steel making, which has the highest temperatures. You have to have probably a very high temperature reactor, a gas-cooled reactor, in that case, to use the heat for a blast furnace steel making. And thermochemical hydrogen production is here listed as between 600 and 950 degrees C, methane reforming through a hydrogen production, 400 to 800 and so forth. So, and then at the very low end, which is still very important, is the districating is essentially from 150 to 200 or so, but you need, and seawater desalination is also important, are lower, but you don't throw away the lower-grade thermal energy as well. Okay, here is the kind of the economics of carbon capture and storage, use and storage, CCUS. Here are the colors of hydrogen that you may have heard about and the target prices in US dollars per kilogram of hydrogen. And these are just metrics. And of course, to be competitive against other energy, hydrogen against other energy sources, you want it to be essentially about a dollar per kilogram. Just look at the petrol prices where you are. So, right now, petrol prices are about a dollar 40. So, in order to be competitive, the hydrogen cost has to be about dollar 30, dollar 35, dollar 40. And of course, you don't want to generate hydrogen using coal because then you're not really contributing to energy transition to a lower carbon or net zero carbon. Okay, all right. There are four demonstration projects in the US under US Department of Energy, DOE. Right now, at these nuclear plants and they're essentially providing electricity for low-temperature, electronis, just as a demonstration that you can have a nuclear plant using the electricity produced hydrogen for the local economy or a transport economy of the energy supply chain. So, and yeah, Palo Verde, for example, hydrogen is expected in 2024. And Davis Bessie in Ohio, hydrogen production is expected in 2023. And the first one by the end of 2022, we're at the end of 2022 or early 2023, nine line of point in the state of New York, low-temperature, electronis from this, from this high constellation is the utility plant. That's the case. Okay, and there's the reference. Okay, challenges in operational methods. Yeah, so when you look at the problem, you have a semi to fully automated applied, it's essentially a semi to fully automated applied control problem. You have a nuclear reactor and the SMR, maybe multi-unit. You may have in mind hydroelectric renewables and when the solar, they actually fluctuate hourly. So you need the data in order to do the energy modeling, the system level energy modeling. And that's why we went to the CSP. We found a CSP plant that had one year of daily data in hours, 8,760 or 8,800 hours, in order to really look at the constant demand nuclear source and then a fluctuating demand from the solar source. And you may be able to put in insert, although we did not look at it, an energy storage source that may give you a time lag or give you flexibility in operation. And then, as I said before, you need to look at offsite electrical power and you need to design the SMR so that it can operate in island mode without the need for offsite electrical power. Under any event, especially in accident conditions, you need to be able to operate without the need for offsite power, because that was a problem with Fukushima. You may be able to use data analytic methods like neurophosy method, machine learning methods for steady-state operation on data analytics and some limited cases of transients. And remember at the very bottom, that's a non-technical characteristic of nuclear power plants is that it's the most regulated of comparatory renewables, for example. Okay, here's the system advisor model from the US National Renewable Energy Line, N-R-E-L. It's called the system advisor model. It has, this is just a screenshot of capture of that model. It can accommodate many things that are not nuclear, solar PV, battery storage, CSP, wind, geothermal biomass, and fuel cells. So it's a very good techno-economic software model for looking at the aspects. You need, if you couple it to a system model analysis of a nuclear plant or an SMR, you need to make a model of the nuclear plant, the SMR, and you need to couple it to this system advisor model. Okay, so some assumptions. We looked at, with this master's degree thesis study from, research study from Mustafa, we looked at a California site. It's high desert in California and Daggett, California, in the US, there is one year of data, solar data, and the upper performance fluctuates because of solar data, and it has extreme temperatures, very cold at night, but very hot in the afternoon, and so forth. So, and with the molten salt use for the CSP, we could then use a copper-ploring cycle, and we assumed a current regulatory framework, both plants, both the solar and the nuclear plant can generate electricity and hydrogen. We didn't assume any nuclear energy storage other than that you would produce hydrogen, but we didn't look beyond producing the hydrogen. And the other constraint in the modeling and simulation is that neither the nuclear plant or CSP cannot produce electricity or nor hydrogen only, so you cannot have them producing 100% each electricity and no hydrogen or only hydrogen and no electricity, so we looked at those constraints. Okay, this is just an example of some early results, and yeah, so we looked at four seasons, the spring, summer, fall, and winter, and looked at the percentages of electricity generated and hydrogen production, the plot on the right top is the electricity in kilowatt hours, and here just the early results. The lower right shows the different types of different kind of optimization that you may have on maximizing the profit and maximizing the hydrogen generated, and we also considered what happens when you have an unanticipated transient at the nuclear power plant, we said a reasonable first order cutoff is four hours, you may not notice for four hours that you have some transient happening, but at four hours, you have to say under four hours, within the first four hours, you may shut it down, but actually to look in detail, it's important to look at two, four, eight, 16, 24, and 48 hours in terms of the unanticipated transient at the MPP. So this is just an example, as I said, the thesis will be coming out in about two weeks. Okay, on data analytics and methods, I just wanna say a little bit about artificial intelligence and machine learning. Here's a paper that I'm going back to, all the way back to 2009. It seems that for thermal systems and engineering design that this backward propagation, Levenberg-Markard algorithm, Levenberg-Markard is in Wikipedia. You can look at that and look at this paper, but I haven't followed up since, but there seems to be this method, the backward propagation Levenberg-Markard method seems to be well suited for thermal energy systems, engineering design. So instead of looking at different kinds of methods, you might start with this backward propagation Levenberg-Markard algorithm as a starting point because there's certainly a little bit of evidence that this seems to work well. Okay, now I wanna say something about complexity and design complexity and optimization. Whenever you have these nuclear renewable or nuclear renewable plus storage systems, if you look at the total number of variables and parameters, you have a complex system and complexity was studied by, again, based on Wikipedia by Alfredo Pareto and you have this thing called Pareto efficiency or optimality and you have this optimization problem where if you use heuristics, you often use heuristics to solve a complex problem, but you may have, in terms of practical sense, does not guarantee an optimal or near perfect problem approach, but nevertheless reaches a short-term goal or approximation. So you may not have the optimal or the maximum or minimum, but it gives you a practical solution and that may be what you need, okay? So, and then you have this Pareto front, what's called a Pareto front in the upper right and for each of those squares, you may have a set of variables and parameters for which you did the simulation, but you're trying to determine this front and you may want to use AI or machine learning to know where you are on the front in terms of overall system design, okay? Now, in order to use heuristics, just some heuristics that I've used over the years, I want to introduce the LENVIT, Length, Energy, Number Scale, Distribution, Information, Time Scale as a high level when you do the engineering design and also when you talk to stakeholders, they may not understand the details of the science, but you really have to talk, as we say in English, apples and apples, oranges and oranges, not apples and oranges, so you may want to talk about these metrics, these six metrics, okay? See how much time do I have? Okay, almost done. All right, in terms of thermohydraulic systems, you often talk about pressure, temperature, mass flow rate, valve position and liquid level, and I use these as heuristics that are well suited. There may be others, but you all suddenly have to talk about in terms of the state of the system, the thermohydraulic system, mostly these heuristical parameters, man. Now, when you talk about unanticipated transients or conditions, then I use a different set. You're talking about a system or a subsystem. You're talking about the state of the system or subsystem. You're talking about what resources engineered or non-engineered resources that you have and how are you going to respond using those resources? So, I call this S2R2. Okay, partial conclusions. Integration and diversity are really important. It's really my opinion. There's a tendency to look at standalone energy solutions. We tend to design the reactor separate from other sources and when you have hybrid nuclear plus hybrid energy systems or nuclear plus renewables with storage, for example, then you have to look at the entire system. It's important to consider the entire system. Multiple unit nucleicides coupled to one or more renewable sources with energy storage or without energy storage, generating hydrogen, electricity, district heating. How much energy, really the question is how much energy can be extracted starting from hopefully a higher temperature. Yeah, and we really need to talk to, nuclear people need to talk to, in my opinion, to renewable people, to fossil fuel people, subject matter experts really very soon and we need to be cognizant of social media because public acceptance can really kill a nuclear, any nuclear project. And we need to develop analytically optimization methods, Pareto-like approaches, heuristic approaches in energy technologies because of the complexity of these systems. Okay, so here's the, here's the, here's the, a Samar with energy storage, wind power as well, maybe add a steady hydroelectric supply as well to the CSP, producing hydrogen, electricity, district heating and so forth. Okay, and yeah, this is just an example of electrical energy. There was a large electrical energy project that was, that was in the news, but it said that it can only store electrical energy for 10 minutes of an equivalent 1300 megawatt electric nuclear power plant or nuclear or large scale energy plant. So gosh, electrical storage is really still very small and there's the example of the Klaferke Lint Le Manu in Switzerland uses water storage and that's also Wikipedia. With any infrastructure project, how many and how much and how soon are really the key questions. Okay, here's some references to start. I didn't list all the references, I just want you to see the references and to start. And one thing about nuclear waste because that question is always asked, it's we have deep geological repositories, but public acceptance is really a challenge, but we only need to look, we also need to look at plastic waste, for example, relative to radioactive waste, because there's that the scale of plastic waste is globally is much larger than radioactive waste. Okay, I'll be ready to take some questions. Thank you very much. Okay, thank you very much. Professor Tocqueiro, so any questions to Professor Tocqueiro? Yes, please. Hello, going through the lectures, is it really worth able to produce hydrogen-wide reactors as the amount of production is very low? Yeah, so that's a very good question. So part of it is non-technical. Sometimes you have to produce a technology, although it may be inefficient because there is a lot of public interest, right? So that's part of the interest, although as an engineer, you may know that technically, it's very low efficiency, but does the general public understand what high efficiency is compared to low efficiency? I drive a hybrid automobile, and I made the calculation four or five years ago when I bought the hybrid automobile. How high does the gasoline price have to be? The petrol price have to be on the money I paid to buy this hybrid automobile, right? But not everybody makes that calculation, right? So sometimes you buy the car because it's the one you want and it has the right color. So it can be based on a non-technical decision, right? When you had the enthusiasm, then you are willing to pay in spite of a low efficiency. So maybe that's not a satisfactory answer, but that can happen. So thank you. Okay, interesting answer, of course. Just to extend this question, let's say I had this in the reports that one gigawatt nuclear power plant can generate a hydrogen. I know whatever is hydrolysis or whatever, but which will be enough to feed 400,000 average cars per year. Okay, per year or whatever, because it's in per year. From the other side, if you make simple calculations, the electricity produced by this one gigawatt standard power plant will be potentially enough to feed two millions Tesla cars. So it's five times more. Of course, there is a problem of storage and blah, blah, blah, but still it's like you can use this electricity to drive five times more cars than this hydrogen. And unless it's solid, I think it's, could you comment on this, okay, simply? Yeah, so that's a good question. So I think the answer is if you combine, well, if you have a nuclear power plant is already the case, or if you combine, if you add a renewable energy plant to a nuclear plant to produce hydrogen and electricity, it depends on the location, right? If you produce hydrogen, for example, for hydrogen vehicles, then you, we already have about a billion fossil fuel vehicles in the world. And if you go to some countries, I'll give you an example where I've been to, Argentina, you see a 50-year-old car still being used. And those people that drive a 50-year-old car do not have the economic means to buy a Tesla. So if we replace automobiles, one billion automobiles we have to replace with electric vehicles or hydrogen vehicles, non-fossil fuel vehicles, it may take 50 years, right? Because you have people still driving those fossil fuel old vehicles. So you have the, well, return on investment is a spatial temper, it depends on where you are, right? So if you're in Western Europe or Eastern Europe and you can build a nuclear power plant, you can build a hydrogen plant, and you can sell a Tesla that people will buy, but that's not the same solution. That solution does not work for many parts of the world like South Latin America or Africa. Or Southeast Asia. It only works in really in today's world in G7 countries, right? Or G20 countries. Well, even G20 countries only partially work. So, yeah, it takes, the answer is it will take, Vladimir, it will take time, right? It will maybe take 50 years. And the question is, do we have 50 years? This is, I agree, but just still, for me, from technical, not from investor point, from technical. For the electric car, you already have all infrastructure. You have Tesla here. In the U.S., you have in China a lot of electric cars, everything is ready. For hydrogen, you have to produce everything. First of all, you have to produce hydrogen somehow, okay? Yeah, you're right, you're right. So we don't have that. And also, you have, you need these hydrogen cars. Of course, this is a little bit complicated, right? Okay. Yeah, you're right. But I understand your point. I understand your point also. We don't have the infrastructure for hydrogen in technology development-wise. We don't have it today. But, it's possible. I think engineers can decide, and we'll decide that there's a lot of excitement about hydrogen, but it really is not going to work. We have one more question here. Yes. Professor Tokuyo, thank you for your attractive presentation. I have two questions. First, about licensing challenges. You talk about technologies in North America, and say that the just new-scale SMRs is licensed by the NRC, and between many of the technology that's under developing. So, in another slide, you said about challenges in operational methods. And in one another slide, you said that nuclear power, by far from the most regulated. So, what's your prediction about the future of the SMRs for Canada and North America? It's very important for me about your prediction. Yeah, so... In replacement in the energy profile of the Canada or USA. It's my first question. Yeah, thank you. So, first of all, I had to really thank Vladimir for this, because from the list of participants, you have a financing model that are national, and we need more details about activities in China and Russia, even in Argentina and Korea. There are many different kinds of SMR concepts. If you base SMR development and regulatory approval based on a commercial investments, then although you have about 80 different types of concepts, only maybe I would guess, my first guess would be less than 10 will get to the end, and will actually be constructed. Maybe only 5 out of the 10 out of the 80 will be constructed because there's enough investment, right? So, that's a practical outlook. You hope that all 80 will be constructed, but I doubt it very much, because if you look at other industries, you see that we have less than 10 automobile makers, less than 10 aircraft commercial aircraft makers. You'll see only a few, less than 10, so that may be the case for nuclear power plants and SMR concepts. So, and as far as the regulatory harmonization, I think it's a great movement, initiative, but how long will they take for international consensus agreement on what a reactor is and what should be harmonized? For some people, for some nations, it may be that you say, oh, the NRC has approved the new scale design. We have the money. We will accept the NRC approval so that we don't have to do it on our own, or we have to do just a minimum regulatory approval, and we will build this plant in our region or in our country. So, let's see if this actually happens. I think it will save a lot of time in some places, especially in emerging nuclear nations, if you accept a certain type of SMR design as already safe and approved. Assuming that it can be exported. Okay, thank you. I really got your comment. It's very attractive. And the NRC approval, after the NRC approval, the investment is very important. So, my next question is about the licensing of the combined hybrid nuclear and renewable energies. How the licensing must be... This energy system must be licensed. There isn't any experience about, for example, hybrid hydrogen production besides the nuclear power plant. I think, in my opinion, it's a really challenge. What's your opinion about this issue? Thank you. Yeah, that's a very good question. I think you have to, when you have a combined plant, and you have to look at the technical safety issues. So, for the nuclear plant, we know them. I think you know them. I won't go over them. But for the hydrogen plant, what is the probability, low probability, but high consequence of a hydrogen explosion? Can it impact the safety and operation of the nuclear plant? So then, what is the distance that you have to maintain, or what are the barriers that you have to construct or think of in the combined nuclear plus renewable or hydrogen plant area that you designate as an exclusion zone, for example. So, I think that... My opinion is that you have to look at the safety issues of the combined plant. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Akira. I also have a question now. It's actually... So, it's related to your question, which you raised in one of your slides. How many SMRs we need? How soon we need them? Let's say, I have been trying to answer this question. If you want to be, let's say, net zero in 2050, let's say you want to... that SMRs will be producing 10% of electricity required in 2050. Then, knowing the projections, how much electricity you need in production in 2050, you can easily calculate that from 2030, I assume the first day, then we can start deploying SMRs. You will need to start three 77 megawatt electric SMRs every day. For comparison, Boeing produces two civilian airplanes per day. So, this is a big challenge. In principle, possible, of course, because plan makers, they can do it. But then you need as many, let's say, SMRs approximately as airplanes. So, that means... Okay, but maybe we should not put this always, that SMRs are solutions for the climate change, because it's... Okay, I don't want to be pessimistic, but it seems to me it's very difficult if SMRs can contribute to this goal, at least up to 2050. Could you comment on this? Yeah, so I think, let me... we are thinking alike, but we say different things. I think it's... I said in my talk, we have about 430 nuclear power plants in the world operating, or in some state of operation. If you look at the... If you do the macro-techno-economic model, using, for example, what's called the DICE model, it's a climate change model, that's maintained, reduced the carbon footprint by 2050 or 2060 or 2070. We looked at it... I asked the same question as you did. So, I went all the way to year 2100 starting in 2020. Yes, you have to build at a tremendous rate, and then you ask, do we have the workforce? Do we have enough construction trains? Because those may be bottlenecks. So, I guess they... I'm not sure that I have the answer, but I know as an engineer, I'm always looking at the uncertainties, and I'm a bit of a pessimist. I worry about how can we do this as engineers and as technical people, and it looks almost impossible. I always say... I would say I hate to be a pessimist, but many people have hope, right? And for an engineer, hope is uncertainty. So, I would... Sure, I understand that people have hope, but for me, it's uncertainty, and I want to look at the details of the uncertainty. Okay, maybe, by the way, it's a good idea if for the groups, we are working on groups, could you also make these calculations? How many SMRs, to answer the Akira's question, how many SMRs, how soon we should have this just small presentation to be from the general consideration? For instance, I was considering that to be visible, 10% of electricity production, but you can assume something else with hydrogen. And at the end of the... On Friday, you can deliver this short presentation of this. Yeah, that's a good challenge. And for certain, you have to close all the coal plants. Okay, maybe... You're not gonna get to a low carbon... So, I just wanted to say, okay, I assumed, for example, to be visible in this non-carbon energy, clean energy production, in 2050, if you want to produce 10%, generate 10% of electricity in total by SMRs, how many SMRs you need? How many reactors? Let's say, you can take 100 megawatt electric on your scale. You also can consider the hydro more complicated, but please just calculate from your estimation. And then, because if you start from my simulation, only one per day, that is only 3%, which is invisible, negligible. So... But that doesn't kill SMRs because they will need them later. And they work also like planes, even more than planes. Nuclear reactors operate for 60 years, 50, 60, 70 years sometimes. So, it's investment to the future, actually, in fact. Not one moment. Okay, any questions to Professor Tokuhiro? People, sorry, Akira, people, maybe it's afternoon for you, for us, it's already dark outside. So, people are tired, but you, of course, we invite you to join us tomorrow and during the discussion, discussions and so on. Okay, thank you very much again. Okay, yeah, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.