 Hey, let's get this out till we get to To we get going up a sky So I think we're gonna be able to do on here is say what we see here and say guys Yes based on this video if we go any further, you know, we've heard a lot of this and a lot of that But we're looking at first video because we think that's their best chance of us identifying where the truth We're not how just for my my understanding this video that we watched how long after the Three weeks three weeks, I thought so I thought it was first interview. Yeah, and it's less than three weeks I think I want to say it's a 26 right so it's the first interview they've done after appearing in front of cameras at the time and Circus all right, let's see I think it's fair to poke on this and beat it up if we see something don't look good That's I think we should be aggressive as we can but use facts All right, so you guys ready? Yeah Here we go. I'm Scott Rasmab Here we go. I'm Scott Rasmab body language expert and analyst I train law enforcement and military and interrogation body language or I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language I help people all over the world to stand out win trust and gain credibility every time they communicate Chase Chase huge I did 20 years of US military now I teach psychological operations psychological warfare persuasion influence and behavior profiling and I'm a trial consultant here in the US Great. I'm Greg Hartley. I spent most of 20 years in the army I was an interrogator interrogation instructor resistance to interrogation instructor I've written a few books on body language and behavior and I spend most of my time in on Wall Street and in corporate America Excellent. Well, we're gonna talk about Madeline McCann and her parents and Madeline McCann's disappearance and We've we've watched a lot of videos and this is the one we think is the best one to go over Greg You want to talk about whites? We think it's the best one. Yeah, and guys. I just arbitrarily chose the first This is three weeks after the disappearance and I figure if you're going to get truthfulness or the opportunity for truthfulness Before they've had a lot of time to think and go and stew and do that. This is probably our best opportunity There are many many other videos and I'm sure everybody wants us to watch some of those others Maybe another time, but this is the first time they're in front of an interviewer and these questions are pretty pointed All right. All right, well, let's get right to it then. We'll start with question one Tell us how you discovered that Madeline had gone as I think people are aware and we were checking regularly on the children and It was during my one of my checks that I discovered she'd gone and I can't really go into any details about that I'm sure any parent will realize How that felt the panic set it immediately Pretty much All right. Well here the first thing I'm seeing is the dad taking that heavy size soon as he asked that question And I think what we're seeing there is it's almost like okay. Here we go He's done it quite a few times at this point we're three weeks in after the after she's been missing And so you see that big heavy sigh because they've been thinking about this all day and probably they are two before because to set the Interview up and finally it's here and here. Here we go. So it's almost like a Alright, here we go when you get to the top of the roller coaster. Alright, here it comes Then when the mom starts talking Her her voice is quiet It's almost brittle as she goes along because I think what we're seeing here as Will address that few minutes we're seeing profound and overwhelming guilt and sadness right here over Over what's happened and her answer is rehearsed But it's not but it's rehearsed in the sense that she's told that so many times up to this point She's just going through it one more time and the the interviewer isn't very aggressive, which is good in this case And so that's why I think she feels comfortable and just kind of letting it come out like that so we see what I term is the the loping part but it's it's The stops we're seeing in it are the emotional things. She's trying I think to hold back as we as she goes through that When she's shaking her head. Yes at him when he asked when she's saying There are parts of this in other words. I can't tell you she's assuring him She's not going to go into details Because sometimes as we know the police say don't talk about this because we need we're gonna hold that evidence back for whatever Of the many embarrassed and married of reasons And then when he says did panic sit in you know immediately, she says she almost whispers Yeah, and pretty much because she's she's wiped out, you know, she's as it comes at yeah Pretty much because she's just trying to get through it. Obviously that's gonna sit It's the most horrific moment of her life that he's asking about right then right out of the gate So that I think that's what we're seeing there Also as we go through this there are no we don't see any barriers whatsoever There are no the illustrators are minimal if any at all I think the dad does a couple and we see the mom feeling with that little doll She's got there using that as an adapter, but that's normal because it belonged to the little child to Madeline But I think we're seeing with with their demeanor and the the movement that we're not seeing is Due to that profound sadness that that they're dealing with right now So this is this Breakdown is gonna look to moat to the Uninitiated in this world. It's gonna look odd, but when you see someone suffering from this, it's quite normal You know, it's it's almost what you see every time when someone is going through something that again, they use a word profound Greg Yeah, so guys, I'm gonna tell you something about my life I lost my only child and there is no way for you to put into words how that feels and After three weeks, you may think someone says hey, I'm emotional or I'm emotionless It's not emotionless. There is no ability to have emotion after three weeks of what you go through I can tell you at the end of three weeks both my wife and I would look at each other and just we're not the same people We had no feelings at all So for them not to be what you think of as an emotional person during this is not abnormal It's like being an empty glass at that point a couple of things to notice with her Her cadence has dropped to about if we normally speak at about, you know Let's make up a number and say 60 words a minute. I'm not that fast or fit Take 60 is a beat a cadence. Hers is about 40. She slowed really down. That's she's gone There's not animation in her. This is an intelligent educated woman and there's not animation in her speech Nothing flowery in her speech. The adapting is more comforting in this case, especially she's gripping this baby doll That's her her child the physical manifestation of what was her child She's talking about the worst moment of her life If you notice her eyes and I'm the eye movement guy you guys all know She has left the conversation in terms of eye contact and it's all internal Conversation and emotion all down left down right down left down right down left down right This is appropriate for somebody who's in this situation and when do Shane talk grief muscle this muscle here Anyone who has gone through a tremendous amount of our people in grief will have that curved Hard for me even to do it, but it comes naturally when you're dealing with grief So pay attention to her pay attention to where she's going here and realize this is like being a piece of cloth All the emotions are gone. It's not that she's sad or happy or anything. They're just gone Yeah after I remember Not not too long after that you can do the grief muscle because I said I rarely see somebody can do it Like I got it and bang it was right there I was like, holy smokes almost it was bizarre because it's so hard to do if you're not experiencing that obviously work So that was something you could do on demand, which was Mind-blowing, you know mark. What do you got? Yeah, so watch that stillness very quiet very still this is not something I would expect from people under Stress around answering these questions. So there's a great stillness to them a great reserve to them Watch out for those downcast eyes in the in the father. It'd be easy. I think to go Well, is that eye blocking because of deceit? it's shame it's Potentially grief. I think more likely a sense of shame simply because He names it he names the emotion later on so he tells us what it is Notice When the interviewer talks to her about panic Watch this part of her body and you'll see the chest Rise quickly and you see her relive through her breathing that injection of panic That tells me that somebody is reliving a real emotion That they had it would be very difficult to create that on Command so, you know, I concur with what you guys are saying so far, which is This feels very real grief to me Chase this I agree and at the beginning here we see Jerry's leg Has his hand his hands resting on his leg and it's in a certain spot And just one thing to take note of here as the questions being asked We're not seeing any digital flexion and even those tiny little retreat of the fingers curling back in the palm There's a big deal and we don't see any of that and this is going to come up later Or I'll bring it up later towards the end of the interview There's something just to take note of And I noticed One thing that you'll see with anybody who's been convicted of murdering somebody but they did a TV interview to say they were innocent first Neither one of these people made a deliberate attempt to show suffering or grief So both of them had had no deliberate attempt to do that which I thought was interesting and They both as the question was being asked had a downward emotional gaze both of them did and We also noticed that Kate socializes the issue She says everybody says this and you know as anybody would understand as everybody had probably has already heard so we're going to hear a lot of socializing and use of something called social proof which will come back to a couple of times here and There's a they're both breathing into their their chest Which is indicative of stress if you meet somebody with social anxiety you'll see the chest go up and down If you see someone who's relaxed It's typically the abdomen it goes in and out so watch a person sleeping for example The abdomen rises and falls instead of the chest and that's that's good. I mean, that's that's a truthful thing That's expected for a scenario like this. That's what I got out of the first first question Excellent you very want to add anything The only thing I would add at the end of this is both of these people are doctors They're accustomed to thinking about other people and talking to other people in a way that's meaningful and Engaging other people you can guarantee. There's not a lot of engagement here with her Okay, all right Tell us how you discovered that Madeline had gone As I think people are aware and we were checking regularly on the children and It was during my one of my checks that I discovered she'd gone and I can't really go into any details about that I'm sure any parent will realize How that felt the panic set in immediately Pretty much Let's move the next one This is a resort that offers child care facilities, baby sitting facilities Why then were the three young children left alone in the apartment while you were having a meal? I mean, I think if you know the location here, which you've seen What we did I think and then we've been reassured by the fact and the thousands of messages from people who've either done exactly the same or Said they would have done the same and for us It really wasn't very much different to having dinner in your garden and the proximity of the location. I Think it's fair to say that, you know, the guilt that we feel having not been there at that moment Irrespective of whether we had been in the other bedroom or not will never leave us. All right We're at the top here. We're seeing His voice is calm as it has been every time he's he says anything Be the reason being he is a doctor as we talked about before He's a cardiologist and he's the guy that knows how to has to give people bad news quite often And he and his answers are and his sin structure the structure of his answer is concise and it contains all the information that you're going to need for Giving someone bad information. He's used to doing that So he's he can get in there for this answer and give a concise tight answer that covers everything And steel keep his himself together emotionally, which is really tough at that point. He doesn't really hit anywhere again. We see Some that's indicative in someone who is just completely wiped out emotionally. They're just he's just me just talking that's really the only word he hits as a Hits really hard is is the word never so that's really all I've got on that is just is he's He's delivering this in a structured manner because that's what he's used to doing That's and his sentence structure again It's just great because he's so smart and knows how to do that So he gets all the information in there Not that he's been rehearsing this answer because he doesn't have he's not saying here's what happened It went like this this and this he's just saying what happened as it's like you would explain to someone They have a serious health situation on their hands Chase. What do you got? Yeah, not much here At the beginning Kate here's Jerry start to answer She opens her mouth to answer shuts her mouth and then kind of looks away I think there's some shame here. I think that that could be an indication. I would Initially think that there are some marriage problems going on now that they're starting to have problems in the marriage and Not that not that this makes them bad people. It makes them human and I think that that's they're kind of suffering some problems in their marriage which Kate has talked about but I would initially think that that might be the case and ask some different questions, but obviously we can't and Jerry answers immediately with an eyebrow flash, which is very genuine unrehearsed eyebrow flash, which is what you know primates and humans We all squeeze our eyebrows down together when we're we're PO'd we're mad at somebody and the eyebrow flash is something We do to indicate innocence. It's the opposite of anger to other primates So we see him do this automatically at the beginning and we also hear him just like Kate did Socializes the issue using social proof We've got thousands of messages from thousands of people saying that they would have done the exact same thing So he's socializing the issue to make it. Okay Again doesn't make him guilty Okay mark, what do you think? Yeah, so I would agree Chase. We're seeing this idea of them setting up a Narrative here that they haven't mistreated. They haven't been abusive Leaving three kids in a room on their own is something that any parent would have done just like, you know being in your own garden And and so because there I would believe and what I'm seeing is there's huge guilt And and shame around this and I think that the father uses the word guilt There so he names the feeling quite clearly there When the interviewer says three young girls left alone three young girls left alone. We see a slow blink from the woman and That for me would signal her Unconscious agreement with that that would suggest to me that in her mind It is true. There were three girls left alone in the room This for me starts to discount some ideas that Something else might have been going on there weren't three they weren't left to you know There was something else going on at the time that the idea of leaving them alone was not true There's unconscious agreement there that three young girls were left alone in the room. I'll leave it there Greg Yeah, a couple of things when he starts the question She does start to answer and you can see she's relieved She doesn't have to answer that question her eyes trail down left. That's internal conversation You're probably right Chase this creates Tension between a couple no matter how good the couple is this creates tension is going to and some people don't make it through it It is a number one outcome of someone losing a child as they often split a lot of couples do so There's probably some tension there, but you can see your eyes drift down left and Probably thinking what's the next question? There's not a motion in that. It's a breakaway It's to get away from it and then he starts to answer I'll also say now mark you'll be able to speak back to this But if you're looking for a guy with a cheerful kind of persona, this is a Glasgow kind of a guy you're probably not going to get the The Dialect you're looking for from mark that sounds much more cheerful that kind of a Glasgow accent is kind of hard and if you're an outside that world person and you're talking to a cardiologist Who's matter of fact by the way his chin is up. We know that when people confess to crimes Their chin goes down they protect their throat So he is not in a pre-confession state or anything like it. He is what we should do for you guys is point out The things are not doing that liars do and liars a person who's guilty covers their throat a person who's guilty breaks I contact and changes words. It's easy to mistake the any normal person would have done this as Blame-sharing. I don't think that's the case here I think they're simply saying what we could see the door from where we were and we thought okay, this is okay They certainly feel some guilt because yeah, they were checking on them every 30 minutes They knew it there's a risk of some kind and it makes people really doubt them because of that And I'm sure they have a million times since this thing happened gone over in their head and said why did we do that? Why did we do that? Why did we do that? We'll never know all the all the facts But I think you can see that she breaks I contact and she's very stern and concerned at that moment And then he steps right in I would guess that they have talked about who takes the hard questions of which kind Not because they're trying to lie, but because the last thing she wants to do is fold on TV and just come apart That's couples even if they're not happy Okay, great just very quickly because you said people will break eye contact and then change what they're talking about They'll change the subject. They'll change as they deflect her So most people are in the impression that breaking eye contact means you're lying. So you go into a little bit of detail about that Yeah, so everyone listening I'm going to play eye movement for three minutes with you and just give you a feel for this Wherever you are in the world I'm not gonna try a national anthem story because we got lots of people all over the world listening to this So let's try something different think of your favorite song in the entire world right now And just think of the first few words that come to mind ding ding ding ding See your eyes moving around your head and you'll get to a baseline where you're going somewhere to retrieve information Now I'm gonna ask you another question Describe the first pet you ever had think about that pet for a minute And your eyes are gonna go somewhere else because you're looking for visual cue or maybe even an emotional tie When I ask you a question that requires you to think and your eyes break contact. It doesn't mean you're lying It means enforcing you to think If your mother's 90 and I say what colors your mother's hair and you say gray that doesn't take thought So the question needs to ask Something that creates thought we could probably say stairwell to heaven. What's the ninth word? Everybody on earth has heard that song if you play it through your head You'll likely your eyes will drift slightly up and somewhere to your left most of us About 10% of go the other place So I want you to know that I movement will probably do something on this at one point is Normal for people who are thinking when you get to these two lower levels. That's all internal conversation whether it's emotional or navigating thought Great and let me add something on to that Greg. It's brilliant that you brought that up The myth that people look away when they're lying where people say look look me in the eye and and tell me tell me that again That myth is so pervasive That liars are more likely to make direct eye contact When they're being accepted well, and I'll take that a step further. I call that glossy It means they're so focused on you They want to make sure that you believe them that they're not going to break eye contact most people I've ever interrogated who are guilty or doing this the whole time paying really close attention to me That's because that myth is so predominant Everyone thinks that and one of the main reasons that I think that people keep that they don't break eye contact The liar even if they don't realize they're trying to keep looking because they know you think they're gonna break eye contact It's because they want to make sure you believe them Yep, so if you if you start giving it one of these they're gonna start adding these qualifiers to it to make their story more believable When if you question or if you pause and wait, which is the classic so All right good. Yeah, I think this is important to say what they're not doing market was your idea originally I think it's a great one. Yeah, thanks This is a resort that offers child care facilities, baby sitting facilities Why then were the three young children left alone in the apartment while? You were having a meal Right. I think if you know the location here, which you've seen What we did I think and it we've been reassured by the fact in the thousands of messages from people who've either done exactly the same or said they would have done the same and for us It really wasn't very much different to having dinner in your garden and the proximity of the location. I Think it's fair to say that, you know, the guilt that we feel having not been there at that moment Irrespective of whether we had been in the other bedroom or not. Well, never leave us Do you blame yourselves regularly? Certainly the first few days I think the guilt I was was very difficult But I think as time goes on and We feel stronger and we felt very supported from that point of view All right, Mark you want to go first? Yeah, just just here all the downward inflection in that so Downward inflection, you know, there may be around about three reasons for it either. It's because of depression It's that sense of this is over. This is done either. It's because of affirmation This is certain and sometimes when loud it's very clear affirmation. It's it's command and if somebody were Making something up and trying to check in with you to see whether you were buying this I would suspect that you'd be getting a lot more upward inflection especially on statements And and and even if you've got, you know, maybe maybe somebody with an Australian accent where it does go up a little bit at the end of each line You'd still get more upward inflection in that so you can tell still tell even with accents when people are being Affirmative and clear and when they're asking for approval This is all very affirmative and very very clear. So again, I'm feeling like there's a great deal of of Certainly emotional honesty around all of this I Totally agree with him and what we're seeing I think when they're when he first asked the question And we see the dad his eyes start darting around and then he closes them for a while We're seeing eye blocking there because of the the question because again, it's a heavy, you know, we're talking about blame That's what their whole world is is Teetering on is at that pinpoint of blame right there and guilt So I believe that's what that's what we're seeing there and that's so that's why his eyes do that The mom she she nods. Yes, almost the entire time she's answering. So do you blame do you feel blame when you're doing that? She's everything she's saying she's shaking her head. Yes. She's nodding. Yes that she feels blame. So that tells me that yet she's that that is Foremost in her mind as it is his obviously But that's what that's what cues me on that and the eye blocking we see that in her as well It didn't be any of that question and again It's like being somebody blowing in your face or throwing something at you You start doing this and they keep them closed for a couple minutes I think chase refers to that is the shutter speed slows way down on that their eyes state goes a little bit longer So chase. What do you think? So in this we have? she answers the question and Jerry doesn't makes no confirmation glance at all So there's a question asked and if we're both sitting here and I'm not sure who's gonna answer first I'm gonna maybe just glance or check in see if she's gonna answer So I think they have said like you know if we ask a question or we'll take turns Or so something has been set up So they're both still chest breathing So that's just to tell you that we're kind of monitoring this baseline as the interview progresses So that we're seeing the similar behavior here And we're also seeing a repetitive use of what I call team pronouns a Person can either use self team or others pronouns according to chase use And and I would listen to that throughout the interview and if those pronouns change That's a big deal, but if I'm trying to get someone to confess I Don't put it if they're been using team pronouns We us our the whole time and then I pitch like oh you need to confess to this This is gonna benefit you and I start using self pronouns to a person who's focused on teams the whole time Then I make a big mistake So I need to use the same words that they do in my questioning and all of all of this something I teach an interrogation just a quick tip for you guys And when she says the words we feel stronger you see a little bit of a a shoulder shrug I definitely don't think they feel stronger at all. I don't think she has much confidence in that statement and You see her head withdrawal Right when she says from that point of view So right here she's saying point of view and in the in the next question What we're gonna see is is her husband Jerry start using very she says point of view and Jerry's gonna start using a lot of Visual words and for the rest of interview everything's gonna be listed mostly. I'm sorry most everything is gonna be listed as visual words So right there that's she's saying stronger and supported So those are her keywords and if I was trying to get her confessed At the end of this I would use those two words because those are very important words her adjectives and the way she describes things are very important At the end of our little interview. I'm gonna use her team focus pronouns I'm gonna say us our we everybody your family your friends. I'm gonna talk about teams I'm gonna say I think this is a way that you become stronger And I think there's no way that you're not gonna be supported if you make this decision So I'm gonna use her words that she's using Just just a couple of tips there. I went on a little long. Sorry guys. No chase your kung fu is good So Greg what do you got? Yeah, so a couple things I'm gonna steal a little bit of what you started down the path with their chase as well Remember I work in business in corporate America really good leaders say we not I and the guys that always jump on the I once things go well and the we when shit hits a fan those are the guys you really don't want on your team So that's a really good indicator of how people's psyches work in that. There's a note to pay and now Let's get back to her if you pay attention She's not asking for approval at any point in this entire thing, you know, I always use that I call this request for approval a Combination of that Ekman would call fishing for resonance trying to make connection doesn't happen she's just saying what she feels or Whatever she's just putting it out there and there's no fishing you don't see that when the guy does the eye contact thing in the Beginning I could see this is a guy who won't put it with a whole lot out of you in normal days I would just about bet you if you were to meet this guy in a pub and you gave him a whole bunch of Whatever he might give it right back. I can see it in his face and you can see it He he almost makes eye contact in a lock fashion at one point like that's a hard question And I think he's trying to protect her to some degree as well regardless of what's going on between them This is the person that you're spending your life with you both going through this thing together That quick eye contact is almost aggressive to me when I see it So I don't see anything that says lie. I don't see trying to convince you I don't see fishing for resonance see none of that. I just see a person telling how they feel Show sharing that blame But then I do see him being be cautious how you ask the question and this guy does ask some pretty pointed questions at times That are painful for these people to answer Yeah, let me add one more thing in there and Scott See if you concur with me on this because you're the son of a physician and and like me you spend a lot of time around Physicians and doctors and surgeons and and so we know the character of them There is one thing that you never do with a physician which is trying to lower their status because they will come right back at you They will they will show you their certificates They're gonna put on their white coat and they're gonna you know, you'd call them doctor and and that well In this particular situation we have two physicians who are taking down their status They are low-key This is very different from what we'd expect from a physician anywhere in the world, especially a British one so we're definitely in an extraordinary situation here under stress and pressure I would expect a physician to come back really hard at me Especially on something that I believe Chase is called the resume statement, which is do you not know who you're talking to here? Do you think we don't know how to look after our kids? Do you think we'd there's none of that? There's none of that which tells me Something extraordinary Has happened to them that they've not planned for Excellent Yeah, I agree totally Do you blame yourselves regularly? Certainly the first few days I think the guilt Was was very difficult But I think as time goes on We feel stronger and we felt very supported from that point of view Let's move on Is there a lesson here do you think to to other parents? I think that's a very difficult thing to see because if you look at it and We try to rationalize things in our head and Ultimately what is done is done and we do continually look forward That we've tried to put it into some sort of perspective for ourselves We're in a very safe resort If you think about the millions and millions of British families who go to the Mediterranean each year Really the chances of this happening are in the order of a hundred million to one. I think I think at worst We were naive and I mean we're very responsible parents We love our children very much and I don't think any parents could ever imagine Or consider anything like this happen All right Good. What do you got and I have a whole lot on this one You can see him moving his eyes around as he's accessing again. There's no visual no auditory visual and auditory cues are up higher I showed you earlier when your eyes are moving around as you're recalling something if I'm making up a story and trying to recall it I'm probably gonna have to go to something wrote my eyes are gonna stay in the same place consistently They're asking these people a very hard question. This is almost a slap in the face Do you think there's a lesson for other parents? and you can see he's a little Little forceful saying look a hundred million to one. He's using data. He's using the way his brain works He's he's saying lots of other people have said the same thing to us. Don't attack us for this I don't see him creating or pulling details from something he's rehearsed I see him responding more naturally and when you ask him a question He's rattling through what he thinks is what I see now. Am I missing something? I'll also say to you guys you need to keep me more honest here There's a there's a unique thing in humans or great power that we all have called mirror neurons And we feel what other people feel and we sense whether the people are going through well, guess what? This affects me I can guarantee you on a level that it may or may not affect the rest of you because I think about what would I feel like if I would be if we'd been grilled over what happened to our kid Would we feel like it was an attack and how would you respond and I can get pretty wound up and back in your face And I can see some containment of that in him You can see this chin is up that chin up and forward is not deception guys I mean, that's nobody sticks their chin out for you to punch if they're trying to hide it. Thank you Yeah, let me let me jump in there because I think I think you're right there Greg I would say because of the change of pace that we've seen in him the slight change in tonality that I can hear even with that Quite pronounced Glaswegian accent and even though the Glaswegian accent is is quite an aggressive accent in the first place I think with I'm certainly hearing anger From him at this point. I can't quite see it In him I can't see whether the top lip is really because he's got this Glaswegian top lip anyway Which is pretty tight in the first place. He's pretty tight anyway, but certainly the tonality and the pacing of it and the and The increase in sharp direct movement in his body says to me I think he just got made a little bit angry by that one there provoked I agree chase Yeah, so this whole thing is there a lesson for other parents here a Little bit of a slap in the face. I agree Jerry answers and there's no confirmation glance and Kate whatsoever She keeps her eye contact and so he starts saying it's a very difficult thing to see This is the way it looks from this perspective So he's starting to use a lot of visual information if I'm getting into confess later Guess how I'm gonna word everything. I'm not gonna talk about how everything sounds to other people Let's talk about how it looks just as a tip there and He again says if you look at it this way and Something that I thought was strange in this statement is when he says ultimately what's done is done So of course it could be referring to them, you know, leaving the kids alone But it should I think it's an unusual reference just a little bit something some a good data point and He just goes back to socializing The situation there's millions of people. There's the chances lots of people do this all the time Here's the proof that this is Normal behavior of some sort and when she says I think at best we were naive or Words to that effect when she says the word naive there is a tiny Neato-classoid Muscle right here movement where she shows a tiny micro expression fear Which I think is indicative of truthful behavior because she is terrified to admit this on camera They're doctors. They've probably prided themselves on their reputation. They both look like avacrombian Fitch models Which it still kind of goes speaks to that reputation So I think that's most likely where that fear comes from as she's saying the word Excellent, well, let me dress that part where he says what's done is done because I thought about that that jumped at me as Well, but I think what's happening here and this is as Greg and I talked about Kafka and what Kafka said was every person is Everyone is necessarily the hero of their own imagination Now this isn't his imagination. He's dealing with but this is the story He's had to tell himself over and over so he can get through this is What's done is done. There's nothing I can do about it. There's nothing anybody can do about it It's over. We've got to move forward. So I think he's he's running that story in his head Constantly to help him get past that. So I think that's why he said that he may not have meant to but in that little anger part That's jumping out. He's saying in other words. Well, we can't do anything about it. What's done is done I'm trying to hold his anger in yeah guys. There's also the piece There's a certain finality to losing a child and they don't have that yet because they don't have even now confirmation of death There's finality losing a child that is nothing like I mean, I've lost best friends accidents friends and Lots of situations my parents my father and my mother are still around but there's nothing as final as a child it changes fundamentally something in your psyche the day it happens and I can't imagine that when he says what's done is done. I Think a part of that is Equivocating and making himself There's there's a personal extinction piece when you let something happen to your child And if you can't get your hands around and grasp how that works You can't come out of it. That's I mean it is just I Don't know how to even explain to you that when you're going through this when we lost our kid You just have to come to a realization that It is what it is if that makes sense to you. Yeah, it's very different than anything. I've been through before in my life Yeah, there's something very big and cultural around What's done is done. It's it's literally Shakespearean so it is literally Shakespearean tragedy you know Macbeth if it should be done then it should be done quickly, of course That's the the murderer of a king and I don't think this is what what we're talking about here But that that finality of what's done is done is dealing with the fatal flaw Which is what did I do? What did I do? What did I have as part of me that has now changed my life forever? Well, I think in this circumstance we're looking at Who decided well, we'll just leave them another 30 minutes. They'll be okay That fatal flaw of it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be all right. What could go wrong? I think that's the horrible drama that we're dealing with here, which you know as Chase rightly says it we can see it Breaking them up right now awful awful situation. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree and again I think that go that goes back to him coming out of his his normal structure of Communication giving that information and those in that almost perfectly structured everything from his diction to content is just There it's all it's perfect But but that anger ramps up a little bit and that's when he jumps out of that out of the pocket of that and starts Convincing trying to convince the interviewer as well as himself again That there's nothing you can do about it. What's done is done So I Agree with you on that. I agree. That's that that's a heavy. That's a heavy statement right there for Either way anyway, you look at it. Yep. So All right, we good Is there a lesson here do you think to to other parents? I? Think that's a very difficult thing to see because if you look at it and we try to rationalize things in our head and Ultimately what is done is done and we do continually look forward That we've tried to put it into some sort of perspective for ourselves We're in a very safe resort If you think about the millions and millions of British families who go to the Mediterranean each year Really the chances of this happening are in the order of a hundred million to one. I think I think at worst We were naive and I mean we're very responsible parents We love our children very much, and I don't think any parents could ever imagine Or consider anything like this happening. Yeah Looking back I mean Did you see anything suspicious in the days leading up to her abduction? Did you notice anything if you've been racking your brains to try to to think whether people might have been watching? We didn't if we did we would tell you because it may be important information But we didn't you know it's such a relaxing holiday And in fact as a family unit up until that night and with the friends we were here certainly for us It was as good a holiday as we have had with the children up until that point Okay So Greg what do you think? Yeah, I think the the giggle here the kind of little chuckle He does will make people immediately think guilt But I think it's a place where he's saying look we're smarter than you're giving this credit for when I got Tell you something like that is all I hear now. Could that be hiding something certainly? I mean but at the end of the day his body language doesn't deviate from what it has done the entire thing Remember we talk about baseline. He's telling a story. His story is responsive His eye access and cues are moving as you ask a question. His cadence is pretty consistent he's not as emotional as his wife clearly and If you don't know that whole Glasgow demeanor and if you don't know that these guys are doctors And if you don't know that all those pieces this starts to be context All the things that we talk about you got to take all this into account and look at his baseline from the beginning If you want to see a disrupted baseline look at the night he reads a statement About the child he can barely talk But otherwise he's pretty consistent in everything I've seen and this is we're using this video specifically to pay attention to what we're talking about His his demeanor doesn't shift throughout the entire thing This chin is up the entire time if he chuckles it's we're smarter than you give us credit for if you think we're going to tell you Anything that's going to compromise the case. That's all I see I totally agree most people will think that's doopers delight for dooping delight. I don't see that at all I've heard a couple people say that so far Um, I think I watched two other things as I was looking searching through videos where people were saying it was doopers delight And I don't I don't I agree with you. I don't think it's that at all chase. What do you got? There's no doopers delight in here. I would stake my reputation on same We're we're seeing There's Jerry's got a contemplative Breath before he starts to respond. No And we see Kate She's doing a shoulder shrug while saying no and breaking eye contact a little bit there And her blink rate goes from 40 to about 85 give or take As she's denying whether or not they saw something in the room, which of course the police would say No matter what Don't say this on camera if you want your daughter back So and that's something an investigator could could tell them So her attempt And jerry's attempt at smiling and deflecting some of the tension there with a smile They're both like I said Very good-looking. They're they're doctors. They know how to fake smile If they want to fake smile and they did a horrible job here And I think that's indicative of truth Because if they wanted to sell something that would have put on a put on a show They have no desire to put on a show because they don't give a crap anymore There's no request for approval. There's no fishing and everything here is just facts just statement. Yep. Yes So this one one Unusual instance where I would say a really poorly executed fake smile is indicative of truth All right, I totally agree with you Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so watch at the end when he talks about I think he says as good a holiday as we ever had as a family and during that we see True sadness just as we've seen true shame We see the eyebrows lift up here down here drooping of the eyelids here Lip depressors here. That's all the signals you need to go That's somebody who is absolutely sad. That's sadness there and to have that on as good a holiday as we've ever had So it's contragestia to the words That's kind of hard to do And so I would say it's true sadness even on the idea of a great holiday Uh, I I really feel the sadness for in there. So so, um, you know Just as as greg's saying there, my mirror neurons are picking it up as well. It's good enough It's good enough. It's it's good enough real emotion that even over Really bad quality of video I I feel the sadness. So that's usually quite indicative of a very true feeling I agree 100% Looking back, I mean, did you see anything suspicious in the days leading up to her abduction? Did you notice anything? Have you been racking your brains to try to to think whether people might have been watching? We didn't If we did we wouldn't tell you because it may be important information, but we didn't you know It's such a relaxing holiday. And in fact as a family unit up until that night And with the friends we were here certainly for us. It was as good a holiday as we have had with the children up until that point All right. Well, that's the last question. So why don't we as we usually do this kind of throw it around the room and uh wrap up and and say what our percentage of Truth versus deception is chase you want to go first Sure, I think it's about, uh 90 92.761 Is what I'll go with for this one All right, mark, what do you got? Yeah, so, you know, what's amazing is Compared to many of the videos that that you've seen us, you know comment on Is we've got no resume statements here. We've got no Obstification we've got no distractions. We've got no hey look at the squirrel over there None of that going on Uh, look, you know lying is one of our most important social skills as is telling the truth So so are they telling us absolutely? Accurately about everything. No, that's not going to be the case because They're telling a story their idea to help them get their daughter back and and You know a whole bunch of things. So so am I seeing about the things that matter around this I would say we're absolutely hearing the factual truth Accurate truth about all the things that would matter most Around a young child being abducted um Now we also I think get some truth about how they feel very clear Let's go through it again guilt shame The worst feeling helplessness helplessness guilt shame sadness They're very clear. They tell us all of those and they show them. So it's very honest very truthful what we're seeing here Yeah, I agree 100 percent what i'm seeing is is it's straight ahead No, read that they have no reason to like I think greg was saying No reason to hide anything there are and chase was saying as well and you too mark They're just saying what happened and what they saw. We don't we're not again like I was saying at the top No illustrators are very minimal No barriers We're not seeing any big eyebrow movement except for a couple of medium things, you know the eyebrow flash that chase talked about earlier We're not seeing anything that's indicative of deception At all except for that that one part of their laughing because obviously they've been told don't mention this part Don't mention that part a little little thing in there um And I think what we're seeing here is profound sadness and guilt The two parents who it's about to eat them alive You know as they're trying to get through this especially so soon after this has happened and for me I'm seeing I'm going to count that one part is four percent deception and and the 96 percent of being Truthful I'm being truthful. Yeah, I think what do you got? This is one of the sad, sorry go ahead please just I think it's first time scott's ever been kinder than I have Well, if I surprised So guys this is one of those sad times that I actually Am saying that people are telling the truth because you're it's a horrible situation. There's nothing good for these people You can see they're just done. There's nothing left If you were to ask them how they felt at that time, I tell you they would say empty There's nothing left they've cried enough. They've been angry with each other all that kind of stuff Now their emotions are gone. They're just there if you notice there's no attempt to sell Nothing there's not even the attempt to look ashamed For you the shame they're showing is for them. They really do feel ashamed. They're not covering their throat because they've done something wrong In fact, there's a couple of times he almost gets indignant that the questions that you're asking are probing into something That they've been over a million times in their life I a lot of people use the word congruent This is a congruent message My hands are moving at the same time my voice is speaking and my head is moving There pieces of their body language that you would have a hard time faking That lack of energy in this face of an interviewer who's asking you these questions Would be very difficult The fact that he's indignant in his body language, but doesn't go at him is probably a good indicator mark I think he would have come back and said boom boom boom boom I'm more qualified than you are to talk about this and this and this and there's none of that I think guys, this is one of those cases. I'm going to say 90 to 95 percent Somewhere in there. They're they're hiding data that they need to hide about what happened Things that they can't share But and they're certainly probably protecting the fact that they've been angry with each other and that kind of stuff That's normal looking around that kind of thing is normal anybody If you found evidence tomorrow that said these people killed their child, I would be absolutely Astounded now you can find circumstantial evidence But I would venture to say we're not going to find that based on what I see here And if so, they need to we need to talk to them to learn how they got so good at life Yes, I I agree with you completely And this is I'll show you guys something you don't have to put it on there I just realized it was happening and why I closed my thing. This is an emotional thing for me Look at my left eyebrow Compared to my right one. That's just it's not intentional. Yeah. Yeah My my dominant eye has started closing down on this on the story. It's just weird sitting there doing it. I'm not doing it in Wow weird just happened Fascinating. Yeah, that's that's they sound like spot. Yeah, that's that's yeah, incredible. You can see it. It's just yeah done its thing So well incredible. All right. Well, I think this is a good one And I think it's going to be a little controversial because of our take on it But again, we call them like we see and we don't we don't lean toward anything politically We don't lean any toward anything And internationally we don't whatever it is we call it like we see it We don't care what it doesn't matter what it is if it looks like deception We say we think this is deception Here's why if it looks truthful we say this looks like it's being they're being truthful This person's being truthful and we we get the reasons why so as you go through this and say, uh You know, there's so many things that tell us that that's not true I you know, I think the four of us would be able to find something in here We did find that one little part but a good reason for it But again, I would put I would put all my chips on these people didn't do this All of them and I know I know you guys Feel the same way. I'm here in this conversation So, all right. Well that one's in the can. Let's move on to the next one. Cool I'm glad we did Where are they chase they out in the water They just pulled in and the brand new party barge and then they left. I was going to show you The party barge is left without you honey. That's funny So after so I just heard