 I'm Joshua Cooper and welcome to Cooper Union. What's happening with human rights around our world on Think Tech Live, broadcasting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii, in Moana, New York, Haya. Today we're looking at rights without distinction in our world, the universality of human rights, Article II in Asia, the case of North Korea. It's an honor to have amazing activists and advocates being able to share. And Vinicius, I'd love to ask you first, what first got you involved in this important issue and why is it crucial for humanity? Thank you for the question. First of all, I'm South Korean Australian and I spent some time at the Sydney Juice Museum as a volunteer researcher and meeting all these survivors and seeing them really actively spreading the message of peace, justice and tolerance really inspired me a lot. And I think that having met some North Koreans living in South Korea when I was working in South Korea, their life stories and their escape stories have deeply moved me. So I'm somehow able to connect the dots and here I am. Yun, thank you so much for joining us and can you share with me why is this issue so important to you and why is it essential to the core of the global arena? I was a victim and survivor but until 2012, I didn't know much about universal depression, human rights and also international law because in my country in North Korea and in China, the communism countries never mentioned about the human rights issues. But now I am a human rights activist and my voice is North Korea, 25 million North Korean voices. So this is the international human rights law that is mentioned in the individuals and also human rights and dignities. So that's why this is really important for me. Thank you so much and thank you for being the voice of all the people of North Korea that aren't able to speak and exercise Article 2 as well as many of the other articles in UDHR. Can you share with us why this issue is important in international law to you and what first inspired you to get involved? As an educator based out of Taiwan for an international school, I think that human rights especially the reflection within the biologues on human rights are quite vital when it comes to the peaceful resolution of the cross-strait issue and it's quite important for us to be equipping students with with the tools and the mindset that's going to lead to the development of the capacity to engage with views that may be different from their own in a peaceful and amicable way without resorting to violence. Thank you so much and of course peace is at the core of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Michael Kirby we really thank you so much for joining us. We know you have done so much in Australia for human rights but also throughout the region and the role that you've taken at the UN. Can you share with us that role you've taken at the UN regarding North Korea in Article 2? Well I was asked to serve as chair of the Commission of Inquiry on North Korea exactly 10 years ago and therefore I'm going through a series of conferences remembering that 10-year interval and what we've achieved and what has not been achieved. The Commission of Inquiry conducted its inquiry in the Anglo-American way that is to say we had public hearings we had the media present and we kept the witness evidence online you can still see it there Commission of Inquiry on North Korea and the object was to provide the general assembly as a human rights council and ultimately the Security Council of the United Nations an independent impartial report on North Korea. I had been a judge for 34 years before I sat on the inquiry and that's what we did we prepared an independent report we made our findings and those findings were overwhelmingly very critical of North Korea we didn't agree with all of the submissions but we agreed with most of them and we presented a case for action against those who were guilty for human rights abuses in North Korea and unfortunately that requires the action of the Security Council and that has to overcome the veto power that belongs to the P5 the permanent five members and that includes the Russian Federation and the People's Republic of China without that action by the Security Council it's impossible to refer the matter to the International Criminal Court and so we have not achieved our goal but we have our record and the record speaks to the world and my hope is that the record will respond alternately to the appeal of Jiwon and other human rights activists for North Korea for the people of North Korea because they are the people who are the core of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Thank you so much Michael and that really gets to the point of what Denise was sharing earlier. Denise can you throw with me what's the state of human rights in North Korea and what are some of the most important issues the world should know about? Certainly there are other people who may know more about what's really going on inside North Korea and when people say you know we don't really know much about North Korea it's not a criticism it really is a country that is so incredibly difficult to know and and and what really goes on and you know the situation changed so at the moment the pressing issue one of pressing issues is that the issue of the repatriation of North Koreans back to North Korea from China so there are currently about 33,000 3300 3300 stateless North Koreans scattered all over China so you know we had Jihan here this morning and she was one of the most people miraculously was able to find her freedom and at the moment now that the COVID is over China is actually planning to repatriate North Koreans and they will you know face executions and all kinds of inhumane treatment back in their homeland so this is the situation that we would like to as activists the world to know and do something about it. Thank you Jihan what would you share the most important issues has the voice of North Korea that the world must know about and that we should all take action together to end? 10 years ago COI report came out but you know that many people still don't understand this North Korea systems so firstly it's many people they don't know that it's North Korea politics because it's North Korea controlled to us it's the 10 Prince priests and also Workers Party Korea they controlled all people and you know also it's the universal degradation human rights act for two mentioned that we respected all humans without the colors nationalities in our sex everything is mentioned that but in North Korea they divided classifications so this means they divided three different classes in North Korean people is the elitist and also middle class and the hostile classes so we hated each other's is Koreans each other's and we always is looking forward to them what they say what they kind of actions but not only to that we also hated the Americans and the South Koreans and also who doesn't like that socialism countries so that is a kind of political emotions I learned that's where I when I was born so that is all North Korea systems so North Korean people still don't know that what's happened in outside the countries and also they don't know about the history too because North Korea published only fake histories and the brain was to people and they also destroyed their thinking so we North Korea's kind of is giving a regime's machines kind of is a puppet because it's a we don't know what is human right meanings what is human dignity we don't know also what is individual's meanings so you know that nowadays is when it's already mentioned that it's China repatriated to North Koreans North North Korean refugees to North Korea so you know there are many filmmakers they human trafficking in China after pregnant baby but the Chinese community party continued to send back to them so North Korea not allowed these mixed babies in North North Korea so they miscarried either this baby or kill the unborn baby in front mothers and also you know that in China too many is that the child who are born in North Korean mother and they also hatelessness so that is all happened in now but it's in the world they were listened and you know the world is still the silent it's North and China's issue thank you so much for sharing about the power of propaganda but also all the rights are interconnected and it's that part of the dividing and conquering is still going on within the people of North Korea but then also to perpetuate a distrust of people outside as well Jun can you share with us the issues in North Korea that we should all care about most sure I believe that it's all good and well for us to pay lip service to the issue of human rights but to really put this into perspective especially for students it may be necessary to provide greater relatability and greater connection to the personal stories that result from the circumstances that we find ourselves in especially those stories from survivors such as Tion and others I believe that this is very important for connecting the issue to students and to prevent it from being relegated to the type of issue that is far removed from their awareness and their baby lives and it's important for us also to encourage dialogue and reflection on the issue and so in doing so have students be able to relate to this not just on an issue that's mentioned in the news or that's mentioned in the textbooks but really as an issue that has a human face to it thank you and Michael you talked about the record and I think that's so important to really document what has happened to people to put a face on the situation in North Korea what would you highlight that are the most pressing issues in North Korea today well before I was pointed by the United Nations for North Korea I had worked for the Secretary General as a special representative for human rights in Cambodia and Cambodia went through the period of the Khmer Rouge misrule and one of the important lessons I learned in that exercise was keeping the record taking the record distributing the record was extremely important it's important for the history of the country concern and in terms of the work of the Human Rights Council of the United Nations North Korea is a really bad job and therefore the nine-point program which we were given in the Commission of Inquiry on North Korea dealt with the priority issues as seen by the Human Rights Council access and ability to get around in North Korea they don't allow their citizens to move except under great discipline and control they don't allow tourists or others to go and visit them and report on their condition as Gehorn has said women and children are a major issue many actions and abuses were brought to attention in our report the politics of the place is such that you can't have a different point of view abductions of foreign nationals including many Japanese nationals is a major issue I mean they said they've sent their agents into Japan effectively to steal Japanese citizens to bring them to North Korea to teach them Japanese language so that they can go back as spies and intrude into Japan and the problem of nuclear nuclear and other weapons long range missiles this is something really that has become worse than since the report of the Commission of Inquiry we didn't actually deal much with that because it wasn't such a big issue but since the report of the Commission of Inquiry the development of nuclear weapons and the firing repeatedly of missiles even one when Mr Kim Jong-un went to meet Mr President Putin a missile was sent just to let everybody know that that's the business they're in and that's the business they're rather good at and that's where they're spending their money instead of food food is a big issue in North Korea so all of these are the issues but the question is how do we move from a report and the chronicling of the sad history of North Korea since the Second World War and how do we convert it into an action plan and that's what is a high priority at this stage building on those great points from chronicling to creating the culture of human rights did you share with us Vinice a little bit about who you see as some of the champion NGOs and heroes and heroes that are doing action to counter the situation in North Korea to ensure human rights thank you for the question and it's a great one because actions speak louder than words and I really would like to take the opportunity to convey my appreciation on behalf of all the you know activists working to improve the situation in North Korea and here we have the unsung hero a very Australian hero Michael Kirby joining us and sharing his wisdom and experience of the past 10 years really because the I guess commission of inquiry you know you as a chair you only serve for one year you have no obligation to continue your activism or commitment towards the cause but Michael has really been such a champion in a sense that he always says yes to these engagements he does not need this I just like to say thank you for being here today and I'm still making your voice heard for the people of North Korea another person that I like to mention is not alive and his name is Raphael Lincoln he is a Jewish lawyer and philosopher and somebody who actually coined the term genocide and I think it's important for you know we talked about the you know the UDH article 2 in Asia and as an Asian person I never learned about Raphael Lincoln I never learned about what genocide really meant because we talk about atrocities and violence and you know bad things happening in the world but the conceptualization of human rights and all these contemporary frameworks and I guess the legal frameworks we as to mention we need to educate the young ones to understand as to how we come to understand and exercise our rights as humans and protect others rights as well so it's not really about North Koreans at the end of the day as we protect others as we become a good neighbor when you're a good neighbor we are you know it's important to be a good citizen and be a good neighbor and this is for me that everybody is a hero there isn't you know one single hero in this world and we as adults we have a responsibility to I guess continue this legacy what the survivors of the Holocaust have really done in these rights so I just wanted to you know highlight it now thank you for mentioning Raphael Lincoln and there's important work that he did to then make sure that we had those five elements of what genocide is and noting that it's not all five but just one to actually constitute time of genocide so we really appreciate you shared that also the sense of solidarity that was really born in San Francisco when the UN was created that we're all in this together we must organize do you can you share with us some hero you see and work on North Korea on a daily basis yes for me I have two heroes so first is the icon copy and in the games so without them is this world still don't know the what's happened in North Korea because myself came to the UK in 2008 you know the many people didn't know North Korea they only knew Korea and also some people knew South Korea so they talked about the North Korea as a part of in province in North side and also many people don't know that is a Korean world I know that is a school is already teaching about the Korean world but it is not really important histories at moment so many people didn't understand about the North Korea and the human rights issues but after the COI came out and you know many people wake up because the people talked about the Holocaust already passed 1940s but this another genocide happened in 21st century so Michael Corbett reminded to us again is the the human rights issues so I'm really thankful as Michael Corbett here and also dating and the second my hero is 25 million because you know that I live in freedom country so sometimes you know I give up my opportunity sometimes I give up my freedoms because that is a freedom country but I think about the my North Korean people and them I just start up again yes freedom need and the freedom is not free you know the poor myself escaped North Korea and arrived in the UK that is a long journey 10 years journey but you know that my freedom is sacrifice my fathers and also my younger brothers and also my son so this freedom is not only my freedom that is all my father my younger brother and also my freedom's journey so it is nowadays is 25 million my North Korean people journey and they they will give up and they continue to fight I know they are momentous silent but they continue to fight is a kill me so they all my friends and heroes thank you so much in June can you share some NGOs that you see a really champion the issues in North Korea because as she pointed directly impacted are really the heroes as they endure and afford to have the rights violated daily but can you share some that you think that are making the world more aware of what's happening in North Korea why it's so important sure I would just like to echo when he's and gion's sentiments and comment on the fact that I think North Korean survivors have an important role to play in the education of the next generation not only in terms of addressing the issues which we presently face with North Korea but also in ensuring that this never happened again and regarding organizations that are doing good work in the field when he's and I are currently in discussions with one such organization unique Korea and I believe that in future the focus should be on educating younger age groups because this is really where we could have the most impact thank you human rights education of course is absolutely valuable and very important and Michael could you share with us some champions that you see that are carrying the mantle of what you've chronicled and are taking actions regularly to make sure North Korea is featured well there are so many civil society organizations working for human rights in North Korea that I hesitate to single one out but all the familiar and well-known international human rights bodies but also a large number of them in South Korea you don't get any from North Korea because of the rigid regime there but we were basically set up because of activism of civil society calling for a commission of inquiries they call for it over and over again but ultimately in 2013 it happened and we were set up and it wasn't a one-man show we had a very fine lawyer and human rights observer Marzuki Darusman and he was from Indonesia and a very fine activist from Serbia Sanya Berserker and so we three decided we were going to do this inquiry in a different way most UN inquiries are done in what I'll call the Napoleonic way the French law system it's the matter of going to a back room and reading all the reports and getting a report done but we did it in public and in our report every second page has quotes from the witnesses and as has been said by others in this program by doing that we spotlighted the human terms of the crisis of human rights in North Korea and I think that was the reason why there was such a result it is when the report came down it was a sensation in the United Nations they've never had a report done in this way and it led to the establishment of the Commission of Inquiry a very strong vote in the Human Rights Council extremely big vote in the General Assembly and then almost uniquely a decision of the General Assembly to recommend that it be referred to the Security Council because as has been said before by others human rights and international peace and security are both mentioned in the preambles to the General Charter of the United Nations and in the Universal Declaration so putting them together and intertwine led to the referral to the Security Council and the subject is on the agenda of the Security Council there was a meeting last December of the Security Council meeting more more recently and so it won't go away it's on the highest organs of the United Nations and what we need is our governments the governments of countries that respect human rights to be stalwart and vigilant in raising the issues presented in the report and COI and most especially the Republic of Korea South Korea under the previous administration of Moon Jae-in they were really very reluctant to upset North Korea because they thought softly softly and sweetly they might need to change and I think Mr Trump might have also thought that but it doesn't work with North Korea they've got too much of an investment in the King Kim dynasty and therefore it hasn't worked and that's why we've now got the problem which is being focused in the 10th anniversary of the COI the problem of what we do to convert words into action I agree actions speak louder than words but words are very important because they provide the record and the mobilization considered society to keep the focus of discussion on human rights abuses in North Korea and I hope that is going to happen in the 75th anniversary of the UDHR which we will be observing in December of this year an Australian Dr H. Lee Evans was in the chair as president of the General Assembly with the third session of the General Assembly in 1948 and he gathered the UDHR into action so we have a special commitment and knowledge of the universal declaration and I hope we're going to have a lot of countries getting behind this for the reflection on the 75th anniversary of the UDHR on the 10th of December thank you so much and it's really great to have that background you also then provide insight as we're looking on the 30th anniversary of the Bangkok Declaration of Peace which was crucial for civil society come together and it is great to see where we're at now but pointing out the blueprint for where we need to go forward. Wenice can you share with us your future vision for the future of human rights in North Korea? Sure it's a big question because there's so much work to be done and and to expect changes in North Korea it's it's it's not easy as activists we often all go through this sort of fatigue and sense of despondency almost that what can we really do about the people that are trapped in the country and I guess you know I just wanted to mention you know about the importance of the Holocaust education the global Holocaust education and genocide prevention institutions initiatives that have been really really working hard to spread the message of tolerance empathy understanding and you know that we're all humans whether we're Jewish South Korean North Korean Chinese half Chinese half North Korean really doesn't matter we're all humans and I think it's important that we look out for each other you know and intergovernmental organizations such as International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance have been very very active in terms of spreading this exact message and I think that Australia is a member since 2019 but South Korea isn't a member in fact Australia is the only country from the Asia Pacific region to be a member and they observe in country in New Zealand but I think we need to do better that more Asian countries such as Cambodia, China, South Korea should join organizations such as Aira and really yeah spreading keep spreading the message that more people would be encouraged to it is important as we just had the 78th session of the UN General Assembly open last week Jiyun can you share with us your vision for the future of human rights in North Korea oh yeah you know this week is Korea's special week you know the full moon is a two-stop so every year you know the two-stop is coming and we are nearly came especially you know the I still don't know where my brother but yet and you know and where about my younger brother so that is my hope one day we reunited with my family but this is not easy you know that is for me when the report came out you know I believed that it's North Korea quickly changing and my people please yeah it's the same as me but it's 10 years it's still happening still my country people invisible in this world so it's now as I am activities and also many people mentioned that this education is really important so you know the article two also mentioned the languages so many people think about that is the South Korea and North Korea same language we used but North Korean people used the totally different language because it's a North Korea radio is a game tonight they destroyed our personal language they always use the political languages so we are writing the political issues we listen to the only political issues you know but everything is we use the politicals so many North Korean defectors they sharing the story in the outside world they speaking is a kind of politics but you know there's many NGOs and also you know that translations they changed a lot of meanings so after it's our evidence is gone because this is a different language so I hopefully in future in educations or academics and NGOs they have to understand the North Korean languages because our language is not only language that is our memories and our survival story and the history so we have to is that we have to is put our original is that everything in the report thank you June for really reminding us how personal this is for you and for so many North Korean June can you briefly share your opinion it would be immensely positive if we could be stronger collaboration in this area especially collaboration between activists NGOs survivors even forums and platforms such as this Joshua this which we're hosting right now I believe that this is immensely powerful and I think that for education it would be wonderful for the various stakeholders in the various forces to join together to create something that will hopefully inspire the future generation thank you and Michael final words your vision for this important issue well my vision is that the world and in particular North Koreans should know that the United Nations cares that we care that we are on the issue and we are going to not give up but insist on delivering the respect for human rights which really we gave an a plan of action a roadmap in our report and good things were done there is a special rapporteur Elizabeth salmon who continues the work of the CLI and the votes as I said were very strong in the organs of the United Nations and as has been said by others in this program all of these issues are integrated the issue of human rights the issue of the environment the issue of nuclear weapons and the safety of our world where would we be if we didn't have the United Nations to provide a forum and to provide the people of the world with the opportunity through their nations to express their concerns about these issues we've established a field office in North Korea in South Korea which continues recording the stories of those who have suffered and we participate in programs such as this so that citizens of countries who are members of the United Nations will know and will lend their support to the action which the CLI recommended we mustn't forget the people of North Korea thank you the theme of never forget was a huge aspect of the creation of the UDHR and of course with the UN sustainable development goals that halfway that enlarging to make sure that climate is also part of the conversation we thank you all for joining us and we know we'll all stay involved to achieve the UDHR on the 75th anniversary going forward into the future Mahalo Nui thank you for joining us today