 Thank you for joining us. So glad to have you with us, Laura. And so glad to hear that background with the Patrick sisters. You are talking to us today, again, for this quick 30 minutes, but it's going to be packed full about solving problems with mediation. So we are excited to learn more about you. Laura Grizzlano is with Bridge Mediation and Leadership Solutions. So we will jump into this conversation with you here shortly. If you have not met us yet, we are so glad that you have tuned into the nonprofit show. We are a live national broadcast each and every weekday. Julia Patrick is the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. And she is the one to be thanked day in and day out for having this brainchild and idea. So it's been, we keep saying, 450 episodes strong. So I am so joyful to serve alongside you, Julia. I'm Jarrett Ransom, also known as Nonprofit Nerd, CEO of the Raven Group. And we are so honored to have the collective support of each and every one of these companies that you see in front of you. These presenting sponsors have stepped up to help us help you do more good in and around and throughout your community. So please do check out our sponsors. They are here to help you drive your number one mission-driven goals forward. So do check them out. But I'd like to remind you not quite yet, because our guest is someone that you don't want to miss. Laura, welcome and thanks so much for joining us today. Thanks so much for inviting me. It's really a thrill to be here. You know, Laura, it's really, Jarrett and I were talking about this earlier with now we're moving into our third year. I don't think we've ever had this conversation about the use of mediation within the nonprofit sector. 1.8 million nonprofits registered in this nation. Yeah, gotta believe there's a lot of need for solutions when it comes to problems that even just internally within our own organization and externally within our community. So wow, this is gonna be a huge conversation to have and we're thrilled that you are here. If you joined us for the Chitty Chat Chat, oh, I'm sorry, just to call it the green room chatter. You're the one. Laura and I went to college together. So like we said, just a few years ago, but so it's super cool to have you, to have reconnected and have you discuss this. So first and foremost, how does mediation work? Sure, well, I love the chance to explain you because I don't think enough people really know about mediation as a resource for solving problems. And there are so many different kinds. I think most people sadly get introduced to mediation through divorce mediation or really difficult moments in life or business disputes where you're sort of thrown into the legal morass of trying to resolve a problem. And so there is a formal mediation process that's protected by law that's designed to help parties be more candid, more solutions oriented and to help them save the cost and publicity, et cetera, that goes along with mediation. So I wanna share a little bit about how that process works, but then also I like to think of mediation as a much broader umbrella that covers all sorts of kinds of dispute resolution processes. So when I get hired as a mediator, I might go through a process with folks, but it doesn't have to follow exactly that sort of formal litigation model. But just quickly, typically what happens is that when both sides either need to mediate because it's in the contract or decide that it's the best way to proceed, they hire me as a mediator. And then I start with kind of a listening to her, right? Really talking privately and individually with each party to understand what's their perspective, what's going on. I serve as the neutral. I like to think of myself as an advocate for all of the parties. So I'm not necessarily purely neutral. I really want everybody to get what they need. So I do that listening first, then we meet together and talk about confidentiality and how the conversations aren't gonna leave the room. They're not gonna be able to be used in court. And then once we sort of tease out the issues, then we set kind of a roadmap for how we wanna discuss it and have a dialogue about possible solutions. It's pretty straightforward. Wow, okay, this is a much heavier lift. Than I would have thought. So can you tell us what that average time span would be until you actually even get to that point where you can all be in the same room together? Yeah, I mean, it really, really varies. I've had a lot of calls that are sort of crisis moments, right? So I think the fastest was we did it all in 24 hours because it was a really serious issue until you sort of speed up that process. If it's really an extended business related or sort of, there are contracts involved or maybe some sort of a workplace complaint or harassment or something, then it might take longer to produce a brief, maybe a shared statements in advance. So it really varies, but I would say my experience with nonprofits, you just don't have a lot of time. Your time is so short, there's so much to do. And so I like to just kind of very quickly, get to the point where we can listen to everybody and then schedule the time that we can meet together either in person or over Zoom. Now, I'm curious, Laura, is this high emotional connectiveness? Like, are we coming in with egos? Are we coming in with really tied to that emotional outcome as well? Oh, absolutely. I mean, a lot of times you started, if I had a dollar for every time somebody said this is never gonna work. We will never agree with each other. Sometimes people don't even wanna talk to each other, they don't wanna be in the same room. I had one person who literally started with their chair swiveled, with their back to the group. I mean, these are very high intensity moments and it's my job as a mediator to start helping to make people feel safe in the room to start kind of sharing, what's really going on behind the issue that actually is presented. Wow. Well, and I learned something new hearing from you just now stating that what's shared during mediation cannot be used in court. So you also mentioned sometimes mediation is called upon because perhaps people don't necessarily want to lawyer up. So I'm curious if you can talk to us because when I hear lawyer, I hear dollar signs, right? So what is the cost effectiveness of utilizing a professional mediator like yourself and how does that help us reach our end goal? Well, it's much, much cheaper than lawyering up and going to court because if you think about it, if you lawyer up both sides are paying expensive lawyers and I am a lawyer so I can talk about lawyers with empathy but both sides have to hire lawyers who have a much more kind of extensive process to make sure that they're advocating for you than they have to engage with the mediator. So it's much more expensive and then if you go to court, you have the publicity issues, et cetera. A lot of meteors are attorneys so the hourly rate might be cheaper or similar to what you would pay an attorney per hour but it's so compact. It's really, and I don't charge for those listening sessions I was telling you about because I view that as educating myself about how to be a better problem solver in the process but if you can get the parties together and sometimes it's two or three hours really to talk something through together. Sometimes it's a full day, sometimes it's a couple of sessions but if you think about that, if you can really get a collaborative solution, number one, it's a solution that everybody can live with as opposed to a judge making a determination that one person wins, one person loses but it's also just so much more compact and efficient and everybody gets something out of it. So just as a matter of cost, much more cheap but then you also have to look at the cost of not mediating and allowing that conflict to create stress, drama, sleeplessness, distraction from the work. So all sorts of costs. In fact, there have been studies that suggest that people spend 2.8 hours minimum per week dealing with conflict. Sometimes executives report spending 50% of their time dealing with some form of conflict. So if you can get rid of that, then mediation more than pays for itself. I can imagine. And I'm hearing you really talk about these win-win opportunities. So as you say, looking at, and maybe I'm remiss, is mediation between two parties or can it be done between more than two? Absolutely more than two. It's probably most frequently between two. Sometimes you have a manager and a direct report. Sometimes you have two co-founders. Sometimes you have, so it's frequently two people but I've done nonprofit board mediations that had, gosh, 15, 16 people sitting around a table because as often as the case, when you have a conflict, sometimes, it's almost like teams form. There's sort of a polarization that happens and sometimes it makes sense to get the group together to do a mediation. So it can be two or probably up to some manageable discussion size. Okay, you blew my mind here on fire moment with the board situation. When you get more people involved, do you have a lesser degree of agreement on the outcome? Do you have to let go some of, you know, you have to say, okay, maybe only 75% of you or 80%, I mean, do you have like those types of goals that are going to agree with this or how does that work? That's such a good question. You know, mediation is a process that doesn't, you can never vote, right? Because the whole point of it is to get some sort of solution that everybody can own together. And so it might be reframing the question. You know, it may be, and a lot of times, this is something that mediators talk about. They're sort of the position is the tip of the iceberg and that's what people come. Like we want to, you know, offer this in Spanish. We don't want to offer this in Spanish. You know, it's too expensive, whatever. And so people come in with that, you know, position, but then the discussion is about figuring out, well, what's, what are the interests that are driving those positions? And then when you really learn about what's going on and what's important to people, you can craft solutions that meet everybody's interests. So you're really innovating a solution, but you don't want to ever get to a point of voting, because then it's not, then you're not really doing it in a way that makes everybody feel collectively that they own this outcome. Does that make sense? It does. And I really am intrigued with the whole concept because it seems to me and Jared, I don't know what you think, but we have a lot of bullying in the boardroom and within organizations where it's kind of like the loudest voice wins. Yes. I hate to admit that. I mean, Jared, do you think that that's something you see as well? I definitely heard it. And what I also see within boards is the gaining the vote, right? Or persuading the vote outside of the boardroom, kind of like lobbying. And so they go into the boardroom and you already know those individuals in one position, absolutely. Yeah, interesting. Wow, okay, so I have so many questions. I really, I'm absolutely fascinated by this. And I've got to ask, this is kind of like a loaded question, but when do you know that this is right? I mean, how do you navigate to that point? Because it seems to me you could be perilously like have such hurt feelings and so distended from what the solutions are that it's hard to come back. I mean. Yeah, that's such a good question. And usually people start to feel that something needs to change, something needs to happen. And they don't really know what, a lot of people don't know mediation exists. So they know they need to do something differently and they might just be like exploring what in the world can we do? Because I can't handle this pain or stress or distraction or drama a minute longer. And I think that's when you, that's when it's time to think about mediation and also just to sort of think about a process like mediation. I do a lot of conflict coaching and conflict management, which looks a little bit more like a consulting or coaching process going forward. But the signs are clear. You have words and behaviors that look like kind of hopelessness, right? So people will say whatever or there's lots of sighing or they just give up and they just don't have that level of engagement or hope. You have small misunderstandings that lead to big problems because they're not getting resolved, especially huge problem right now during remote work because people aren't running into each other in hallways. So you have these little grumpy misalignments that then turn into huge dramas and also just reduced productivity. Sometimes you see staff just sort of like letting things drop balls drop that they didn't before, people who were real hustlers just sort of throw up their hands. I think that there's a lot of, you know, it's really time when people start taking sides, team Roger, team and or team advancement versus teams ticket sales or that's really when you're in the danger zone and something needs to be done. Wow. Have you seen an increase of mediation and or conflict resolution over the last three years, you know, as we continue to navigate these pandemics plural? Oh my goodness gracious. I mean, these have been two really tough years for nonprofits, especially nonprofit smaller businesses, family businesses, so many things to juggle, so difficult. And then people are having to do it all remotely. And, you know, as I said, we're human creatures who are, you know, we're herd animals, we work together, you know, best when we can kind of read each other's body language and kind of sense what's going on. And so I think it's a really, really rough time and I'm getting an awful lot of calls from organizations where the morale is down, the staffing challenges, people quit, which means that the people who are left are doing the work of like, you know, two people or three people or four people, which makes things even tougher. So there's a lot of unresolved conflict right now. And I think that mediation and mediators are having to adapt and evolve to make sure that we can help, you know, in new ways with these teams that are remote and really struggling. So to tag on to that, is mediation available in this remote setting? So, you know, I'm assuming it is, because as we look at, and I was just watching the news about how many people are taking onto traveling and longer stays, right? Over a week, sometimes a month, because most people are still working in a remote location and have that ability. So when it comes to mediation, you know, having this virtual opportunity or regardless of where individuals and boards may reside, I'm curious, and we don't have much time if you could talk to us about, you know, how mediation can be done and effective with this virtual component. Absolutely, I mean, we've had to adapt. I, at first, I was pretty resistant to doing online mediations, but I've now really come to embrace it because you can include so many more people, you know, before you used to get people together. And now I do global mediations with people in different countries, right? And I think you have to be a little bit more creative. I do a lot of offline sessions, sometimes in the middle, you know, in person, we would just take a break or step outside. Now I'm having, you know, let's hang up. I'm gonna call you. I'm gonna chat with you over here a little bit more back and forth. But, you know, once the parties get comfortable with talking candidly, you know, with the mediator, with the neutral person, it actually works really well in a Zoom session. And we have to make sure we're staying confidential and taking all of those, you know, cautionary protections in place. But it's great and it's frankly cheaper because nobody's traveling, you know, and you're not renting a conference room. So, yeah. It's so fascinating. And I would think that there's been so much duress in our country with our workforce, at homes, I mean, in homes that there's gonna be an escalation of people, well, I think we are, you're seeing an escalation of what I would call bad behavior or uncivil behavior, right? I mean, people saying things to other people that they would have never said, you know, several years ago. And so it seems to me like there's an escalation of behaviors that might really lead to more crises or upset behaviors. And so this might be one of those things that really becomes a tool. You mentioned before we got started that there are ways for all of us to navigate this, maybe even internally. And again, we don't have much time, but could you chat about that? I was intrigued by that because I think there's a lot of mediation as bringing that outside person in. But you were like, well, no, you can learn some skills to use it internally. Can you touch on that? You bet. I mean, I think active listening training is something that every organization, it's worth training all of your people and having it part of onboarding because it's not just listening to other people, it's listening with an interest in understanding their emotional experience, hearing what they're saying beyond sort of that, you know, surface level and then being able to respond in a way that shows I'm hearing you, right? I'm clarifying what you're telling me. I hear you. And once you start to give people those skills to do active listening, you can create little internal listening sessions. And I think it's worth getting people together, not for a venting session, but really to hear, you know, how are you guys doing? What's most difficult right now? What small things, maybe free things, cost-effective things, could we do to make this situation better right now? And, you know, that will reveal some things that need to be discussed. And then you just get, you know, a neutral teammate or colleague or board member who can be that facilitator, because sometimes it's just a matter of starting an uncomfortable conversation, right? We all kind of tamp things down. We don't like conflict, we avoid it. And so sometimes it's just giving somebody the permission to start that conversation and help people talk to each other. So there are lots of great strategies for organizations to use internally without even having to hire somebody. So, you know, I'm wondering if this is a newer approach to management because I hear Jared say this, have this framework a lot. So there's a 20-year time difference between us. And I know clutch your pearls. And one of the things that Jared will often say, which I will man up and say, this is the last thing I would think of, Jared will say, well, ask, you know, ask your staff. Ask your done. And I'm always like, what? No way, you tell them. You know what I mean? It's a really, so I've got to think that maybe this is like a generational shift in just overall management behavior. Yeah, I agree with it as a generational shift, but I think it's also, as you were mentioning earlier, that times just call for this. I mean, everything is different. The internet is different. The polarization from all angles is just there. And so I think the old strategies of kind of command and control and, you know, creates the spin and the message, it just doesn't work anymore because people are just like, that's not, I'm not being heard. I'm not, I don't feel like I belong in this. And so they just give up. So yeah, I think it is a new way of thinking about it and doing it. And even the most resistant, skeptical, command and control folks at the end of a mediative process are like, wow, that was something. Yeah, well, and I hope that it's not fully generational, as you said, Laura, that it's really this cultural shift. It's the dynamic of the workforce is the dynamic of us as humans. You started out saying, you know, we are, I think you said pack or herd animals. And so we want to feel included. We want to feel apart. We want to be, you know, within a community of likeness and acceptance. And perhaps this is one of the ways in which our systems are starting to change and shift to really accommodate the person. And I cannot help but to think about right now what's being coined as the Great Resonation. And we're going to talk about that with a guest here in a couple of weeks. But, you know, I've heard that it's really not about resigning. It's about standing up for yourself and your beliefs and your work systems. And again, I find great value in all that you've shared today, whether it's the conflict resolution, the active listening and the mediation. There's so much value in and around all of that as we each continue to move forward with such heavy weight and plates, you know, our plates are full and our shoulders are heavy. It's so true. And your point, Jared, is exactly right. Sometimes it's just about having the conversation. You don't need to resign if you can share what you need and have a dialogue about it and figure something out. And boy, we would be a lot better off if some people just could stay, you know, and then we could just adjust to make sure that everybody was taking care of. Well, yeah, I mean, to Jared's point, you know, with this major shift in the labor force, it is incumbent upon us to keep our people together. And move forward because we know every moment that we have to search and replace and retrain and reframe a job position, that's valuable time and money that's lost. And so I love the concept of looking inward and saying, okay, what can we do to mitigate this issue and make the family whole again, if you will, and move forward versus, you know, getting everybody so hurt that they walk away and then, you know, you have to recover. So really fascinating. Wow, I just wanna get Laura's information back up here because I'm a believer in this. I mean, Jared, if you and I ever come to blows, we might have to call Laura. That's right. And I would look forward to that opportunity. It sounds like you're really just a gem to work with to know that you also have the legal degree behind you. I always think anyone that is, you know, capable of serving as a mediator has some very special, special skills. So thanks for what you do. Well, I have a soft spot for the nonprofit community because I spent my 20s working for nonprofits and still serve on a nonprofit board. So like the nonprofit world and my nonprofit clients are just, you know, so dear to me. In fact, I give discounts, you know, to nonprofits because I just, I really admire people who work for nonprofits and because you wanna make the world a better place. It's a joyful industry when it can be at its best. When it works. Yeah, when it works. She offers discounts to nonprofits. So if you are in need, this is Laura's contact information, bridgeadr.com. Do check Laura out. Phenomenal. And if you jumped on a little bit later, you might have missed that these two, Julia and Laura, know each other from their college years. So it's so good. We are so glad to have you on and to share your valuable time and your expertise with us. Well, thanks so much for having me. And if I could ever be of any help, let me know. Wow, it's really been exciting. Hey, you know, this is just one of those magical things. If you've missed the live broadcast, you can find us on Roku, YouTube TV, Amazon Fire TV, Mio. You can speak into your smart remote and say the nonprofit show. And as Jared likes to say, we will practically be sitting on the sofa next to you because it'll come up. I'm sorry, say that again. We show up as holograms. I mean, literally we do not, but we're working on that technology. Soon, soon. Yeah, I mean, it's scary, but it's true. Hey, we want to thank all of our presenting sponsors. Without you, we would not be here having these robust discussions. You know, Jared and I off-camera marvel every day at how much we learn. And this has been our sector. We have both put in decades in this industry. And yet we still learn something every day. And I would say we're pretty sharp women, I mean, but literally there's only something new and exciting. And these sponsors of ours allow us to have these discussions. Jared, if I may, I want to really quickly mention that we've been talking about fundraising academies, accelerator program that's starting up for development directors, major gift officers, even CEOs. I believe that tomorrow is the deadline for applying to that. You have to apply because it's at a higher level of leadership going in through that cohort. It's a national structure. It's not been done this way until now. And so it's an amazing opportunity to work with Hanneberger, the folks at Fundraising Academy on cause selling. And so we have been captivated by it, but just to let you know, check out Fundraising Academy site because tomorrow is gonna be the last day to get involved in this. So anyway, yay team on that. Hey everybody, this has been a fabulous episode, but I say that every day. And the one thing that I also say every day as we end our episode of the nonprofit show is the reminder to stay well, so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow everyone. Thanks, Laura.