 Trying to get back to the basics of great products power comes from sharing information. I try to convince people to slow down Hello, hello, welcome back to the last episode of the season of the circle slash podcast My name is William from the appall and here at the Helsinki office and having Isaac rowdy with me in Copenhagen. Hi Isaac Hi, William. Nice to meet you again. Nice to meet meet you. Yeah Many times before I Think I've said that a few times actually. I think there's the first time I called you out on it Hey, we are gonna end the season with a bang We have the huge honor to be hosting two of north zones partners We have Wendy Shao Shaddick and PJ person welcome both of you Hey, everyone. Hi there. Great to be here. Super great to have you as is usually The way it goes in the circle slash podcast. We usually give the floor to our guests immediately So do you want to give a short introduction of yourselves and and you know, what you've done? How long you've been at north zone and etc Ladies first Sure So I'll start from the very beginning. I was originally born in China I moved to the US when I was about seven immigrated with my family to Michigan where I grew up Kind of the good old Midwest US upbringing and then moved to New York About 11 years ago and you know worked in management consulting here for some of the largest industries that were actually Disrupting right now and it was very evident That at the time a lot of them were just unable to cope with what was happening in in kind of Both organizationally, but also coping kind of against the new tech and come the new tech entrance that we're completely just eating their lunch And so I decided to give up on helping the old guard enjoying kind of the new guard and started a company In the co-working and childcare space Here in New York to help kind of enable young and new mothers to keep continuing to work in the in the workforce and kind of You know take an entrepreneurial dive while still caring for their newborns and then at that time I was also getting my MBA at Columbia and I met PJ and I decided to join north zone at around 2015 and I've been here ever since great and Wendy's Really spearheading our web 3.0 Practice and And that is that that also shows how fast this industry is moving I started when this industry was super small back in in the late 90s and And the the entire venture capital industry has gone through tremendous changes and particularly Europe and also in New York I would say over that time period and From being a very marginal Asset class where which very few people really cared about To now being at the center of I would say a secular shift where We're basically entrepreneurs are changing how we how we live and how work and and and everything and seeing that from you know From up close and being part of that transition has been a tremendous experience for me and I've been fortunate to work with some of the greatest entrepreneurs coming out of Europe but also out of New York such as Donnie Lee and co Spotify who I saw sort of on the board of directors for 10 years and Jonas and Philip who built a veto into one of the biggest Online classifieds platforms in the world. They actually Last time I spoke to them. They said that about 5% of the Russian GDP is actually traded on that Platform, which is pretty astounding And now in more recent years we Went in I co-led an investment in the spring health, which is a very exciting Healthcare company. So, you know, I've been a long time in this industry, but I've never seen such exciting times as now Yeah, it's definitely sounds like an exciting journey and something we picked up also Well along our own entrepreneurial journeys, albeit very short so far But still and also from doing this podcast is is the very same thing that the world seems to be full of Opportunities and there's kind of this validation going on for Entrepreneurs and venture capital and it's truly is a very great time to be doing things like this And it's it's a good thing as well because there are some really huge problems to be tackled in the coming decades So I'm happy we have good entrepreneurs and a lot of capital doing that and not only maybe heads of states and EU and stuff like that But we we agreed to talk a little bit about the European ecosystem What's going on but also talk about the coming years web 3.0 crypto Interesting new technologies, but maybe we could start off with we're talking about the first six months Of of this year and in terms of capital invested in Europe. It's been quite a record-breaking Period of time. So in your view, what's happening in in Europe at the moment? Yeah, maybe I should start then although that we are Wendy's US based and I'm Stockholm based we do look at the world Not so much on geography, but more on sectors But you know taking nevertheless the geographical standpoint, I would say that Europe has As many other territories over the past year experiences enormous fast-forwarding of Digital behavior That is not only driven by the fact that people can't Go to the workplace or that they have to log on to Platforms like this, but it's also that it has created a sort of second order of change where Processes business processes decision-making processes and And a lot of Ways that you work are being questioned You know in a way that we haven't really seen before and and most of the time the the big enemy of Startups is it's the status quo that you don't want to change, but there has been so much change fueled by by this Covid pandemic that has really played into the hands of startups and and scale ups. So It's it's been a tremendous amount of capital that's flown into the market But what I think is even more impressive is that when you actually look at the performance of these companies that are getting these kinds of you know substantive Financing rounds their performance is you know breathtaking and they have growth rates that are You know far and beyond What we've ever experienced before so so even no venture venture investor things that 150 to 200% growth In a year is phenomenal. That is more like the rule in many of these Exciting startups in this past year. Yeah, I'm just kind of sorry. Yeah, go ahead No, please when I Know I was just going to say to add on to that in terms of behavior change We obviously see kind of Europe leading a lot of that in terms of e-commerce penetration And it just you know and you know other other types of digital behaviors And it just doesn't make sense that capital availability doesn't follow. And so I think what's also become quite realistic In in the past six months is that that global venture capital Is starting to pay so much more attention to Europe than ever before and you know part of it I like to think it's just a part of human bias being kind of outside of your in-person meeting Mindset you get to reflect a little bit and think about the opportunities globally that you can access now virtually both for VCs And and entrepreneurs And so you see a lot of you know a lot of our US colleagues Again, I'm here based in New York So I see a lot of my colleagues in New York just like incredibly excited about the European opportunities And and as well as kind of on the West Coast I'd like to take a step back and ask about web 3.0 like you said PJ that Entrepreneurs are shaping the word world these days in ways that we haven't seen before I mean the shift can in many ways be seen as paradigmatic even I mean if we talk about web 3.0 then I Mean, I guess it's better if I let you give a short introduction, but at least the way I understand it like it When when me when the meetings or the the moments when people meet Move or moved increasingly to the internet the friction between those meetings And the political frictions whatever kind of frictions you want to apply to those they they are diminished and and the role of protocols And become much more important compared to institutions. This is the text that I read from you Wendy Taking it directly from there, but could you actually just give a shorter introduction? What is this paradigm shift? What is web 3.0 and how how What are the implications of it? So I think you know the the idea of web 3.0 is still fairly abstract and a lot of different things can be attributed to it But I think the very simple way of maybe internalizing the overall idea is The idea that you know, it's for us in tech And in us in venture You know, it's always about coordinating more human activity through technology And and a lot of that has been online And so if we look at traditional ways of doing that it could be through human organizations But I would you know propose that what web 3.0 is starting to do is Doing some of that coordination in kind of a digital marketplace type of format using code And that is what protocols are essentially. It's you know marketplaces without intermediaries That are automatically executed through code and so that you know For example, could be a Bitcoin mining network where people hook up hardware To the internet and run code and they help together Secure a financial system using encryption And and and power and then it could also be kind of you know, Ethereum, which is a a global more kind of executing Computer so to speak right you know again people kind of plug in their machines and can help kind of run financial smart contracts in a in a Decentralized and in democratized way But then if we also look at kind of you know, the idea of web 3.0 and what we've been Investing in kind of in this phase of technology adoption And I don't think we're fully there yet to what I've just described as sort of ideal Idealistic vision of having kind of everything run in a decentralized coordinated way via code I think what we're seeing is starting to you know Companies and protocols are starting to build bits and pieces of functionality that can be added to existing businesses Whether it be through the API or other types of kind of components and then these components together can be adopted by kind of existing sort of Financial services companies now or health tech companies or consumer companies I think DeFi is in a great movement You know example of that and we can talk more about what that is for folks who aren't familiar later But also NFTs is another great example of one of these components Whereas really about managing digital media online in kind of a seamless and decentralized way and that as a component Is very powerful when you apply to something like online football trading cards for example, but you know Companies that you know that that operate like that I guess they could consider themselves a part of the web 3.0 movement and they could could not But I think the definition in itself can be a little bit, you know limiting in that way because that is such an abstract idea And if I just add on to that because I think and we've been discussing that at great lengths Wendy and I said there was a really a big shift between web 1.0 and web 2.0 and and if you think of it all the big companies that are Currently like the real Trillion-dollar companies they were largely built on the premise of web 2.0 when the internet went from a relatively static almost like a You know shopping window Setting to something that's very dynamic and could actually start to organize business processes So so the level of abstraction increased and the functionalities Multiplied going through that in the early parts of 2000 and led the laid the Framework and the groundwork for some phenomenally big and successful companies and most of the startups that we invest in today Have that in a framework at it as it's core I think what's so exciting from both I think societal and an investment standpoint is now that's a web 3.0 represents another leap in that sort of abstraction and How that looks like in the future it's sort of hard to tell it's If you most of the if you compare most of the 3.0 companies right now with with a web 2.0 companies They they are not you know super competitive if you compare them light for light But they have a different sort of growth trajectory ahead of them and that's what's exciting for us as investors Yeah, I think this is it's I'm very glad that we get to bring this topic up also the podcast is slush slush is also all about looking for the next big things and This is something that it's it's interesting when talking about for instance Bitcoin how the media narrative is is quite narrow at the moment and it's What you see in mainstream media is that it's too volatile to be a currency and and this and that then and you know It's used for illegal activity and death and it's kind of a Nordic lens It's kind of a European lens. It's kind of like a privileged lens also to look at this technology true because if you You know, obviously in in very well-off countries You have a relatively low amount of corruption and relatively high trust in in institutions but in many parts of the world this technology can be a very it can be a leapfrog technology also also in terms of of you know Creating a new economy empowering people and empowering trust as well. So it seems like this is being This is being shrugged off somewhat at least in the mainstream media in in Europe And it's it's very it's very nice to be talking about this and how do you see, you know, the role of for instance Bitcoin here, I don't want to get stuck on Bitcoin But if you look at the premise of Bitcoin and the white original white paper of Bitcoin, it's it's pretty clear At least to me that it's one of the it's a very Unique idea in that sense that it's the enabler of all the layers that have come after that It's the enabler of Ethereum. It's the enabler of NFTs It's the enabler of DeFi That is kind of the original idea that got everything started and everything that's built after that is kind of a micro Micro trade and and Bitcoin is the macro trade. I don't know if you if you catch on to that, but that's kind of How how I see it at least at the moment Yeah, maybe I take a stab at that I think Bitcoin was really important in demonstrating a lot of again the primitives and the potential of This technology across a very important use case I think it's arguable still if it's, you know, truly a financial kind of payment rail I think, you know, most have settled that it isn't but it could be a proof of a storage of value rail or something, you know, a treasury type of use case but And I think, you know that in itself is a huge opportunity I think we're still in the part of the market where a lot of these things are still very They still rhyme from a consumer's perspective And so there's a lot of correlations and how people think about Bitcoin and Ethereum and all of these others And certainly from an investment perspective for a retail investor Maybe they consider Bitcoin the most de-risk from that perspective, but for us, it's actually quite different We look at them very very differently as technologies You know, because the use case is is sort of what we're focused on and the utility value of each of these protocols Based on that use case is what we're studying So a lot of what we're looking at is creating new internet infrastructures And some might disagree with me on this But we don't see a lot of that happening on Bitcoin rails We're seeing most of it happening in other kind of what they call layer one blockchains like Ethereum and others And so we're spending a lot of time understanding, you know, more importantly kind of what the developers are building You know useful business or user apps on And you know, we don't let kind of the infrastructure lead us in terms of investing We let the developers and the consumers lead us when we think about innovation And that just might mean a lot of these protocols that we're looking at are probably going to be a little bit further removed from consumer kind of mainstream mindset because you know, it's still like very much an early stage venture backed project But you know, I You know, I think that's sort of at least how how we think about kind of investing into this space And how we look at sort of some of the currencies versus others It's always been a lot less about the token a lot more about what's being built on top of it Exactly. One one one good example. I think Contrasting to the Bitcoin story, which obviously has much more appeal as a story in itself, but Wendy led the investment in live peer, which is an infrastructure to basically produce video capacity and it's a distributed system and The participants is that network is like a peer-to-peer network, you could say and they're being compensated With with the tokens and and the consequence of this and the way it's set up On on the blockchain is that they can produce video ingestion and basically a video streams out of you know, a Small fraction of the cost of what the incumbents can today And and we think that that's how this will evolve that you will have just as you have in if you look into the the ride-sharing services like you now have, you know, hundreds of thousands of Independent entrepreneurs driving uber cars or lift cars or whatever it is There will be hundreds of thousands of entrepreneurs being a part of creating infrastructure for various things like being it for video or for for transaction verifications or Things like that and that I think is a new Class of of companies that are yet to be formed that can be a tremendous opportunity and the and for us as investors We obviously need to look at where will the value be captured there? Is it? With uh, you know with the drivers or is it with the Algorithm or you know, what is it and and that's a very exciting challenge I'm interested in this in this dichotomy between institutions and protocols And the shift do you do you think? I mean, I think william would have made a great point and there's a lot of I agree with there But but this question still kind of stands like what is this new world going to be like that is supervised by protocols and not by institutions I mean, it might not be that sort of clear cut of a dichotomy But but still that is the dynamic and so how do you see how do you see the future being? In contrast with the kind of the old world like what are some of the challenges that these decentralized protocols have to have in mind Maybe some of the goods or even some of the necessary evils that exist in this like Kind of stable Institutional world that we live in these days It's always fun to try to predict what the future will look like It's it's you know, not our job in in venture capital And that's certainly not the the approach we try to take at north some but we do have some great kind of theoretical debates about You know where this line gets drawn in the future I know pj and I have certainly had those in the past and You know, what I think perhaps is most important is is kind of looking at where these activities converge now on kind of these Already protocol primitives and company primitives forming on top of them and where the value is being added And more specifically what I mean by that is, you know When is code better to coordinate people and when when are people better to coordinate people? I think there's always going to be an element of human Humanness that just can never be abstracted away by technology And you know, I think there's also certain activities that can just be faster More efficient done directly kind of via code from computer to computer And I'll give an example of a company we invested in called grow labs It's uh, you know founded by a actually really talented swedish entrepreneur And what he's looking to build is sort of, you know, the human layer the the neal banking layer for the average consumer to build trust In this new financial system But then the part that can be coordinated by code is sort of all the defi components underneath So he's utilizing the various yield kind of seeking protocols and interest-generating protocols stablecoin protocols To build a financial product that looks familiar to a regular human today that deals with neobanks And all of the activity underneath between kind of lending and borrowing and interest rate determination That's being done by protocol and there's a bunch of traders and you know people that are much kind of more focused on that coordinating those marketplaces in court sort of Using those marketplaces facilitated by code But what the company grow is going to build is sort of the human layer of that You know helping kind of the average person understand What is the seven percent yield on a stablecoin? Should I trust it? What are the risks underlying it? How do I get insurance for it? How do I even access this to be a product? Like I think product building is a very human function that probably won't totally be disrupted by code And and so I think that's a good example of where we're starting to see the emergence of organizations adding value versus protocols adding value and I expect if you expect extrapolate that further It'll follow the same kind of principles of you know code being more efficiently coordinating activity versus humans I think yeah, I think you were on to something important there on on regulation and If you think of it, what has happened with bitcoin over the past Three to six months or so, you know, there's one person who holds more Power than I think anyone would have anticipated a year ago. That's Elon Musk. And if this would have been a like a regulated Entity he would have been in jail long ago For you know pumping and dumping anytime, you know Yeah, and and and that's that sort of goes to show that when you start when you build an asset category of this This size and there is a lot of consumers running on to the scene and and be being Lured into you know making really big and risky decisions because there are some famous people around that's That's when the regulator needs to step in actually and and I think that it's hard It's really complicated. I don't think that there are many people in congress for instance in the u.s And either in the european union who actually understands this market. So so I you know we we We anticipate that there will be some, you know Some stantive issues going forward in this especially if you're sort of close to the You know to the money market like Bitcoin is and and the fact that it actually presents a threat to the the fiat system so there is a lot of Vested interest that that goes against that that infrastructure and and that fuels the the storytelling even more Becomes even more interesting to engage there will be hell fire raining down. So it's all bitcoin holders You know prepare for volatile years and and yeah do what you see see fit but I think it's a it's a great point that you raised Wendy about You know, why should we just only algorithms? And it's it's very easy to have this black and white discussion That's going to be either institutions or or then you have all their algorithms doing everything and Usually in these discussions the the conclusion is is that it's going to be a hybrid model where some part of the transaction is done quicker faster cheaper and more reliably by an algorithm But then you still want to at the end of the day have have a face to the company that have faced to the algorithm And then trust someone at least in in many countries not necessarily everywhere, but in many places. That's certainly true Yeah, and that's not just true in crypto, right? We're seeing those trends in in tech more broadly and I think here It's it's very much kind of observing an overall movement of the web around these different tech components And you know, basically providing more tools for entrepreneurs to build better and more robust companies at much less risk Than ever before and I think this all just ties back to kind of what we were talking about with the paradigm shift of tech In general and in cryptos just one kind of very far end of that But we're certainly seeing it in enterprise software With more kind of DIY no code low code tools. We're seeing it in in SMB software You know with a lot of developer adopted bottoms up adopted consumerization Of the enterprise type of software And so this we see kind of as just a part of that broader trend. Yeah, let's talk more about Yeah, let's talk more about more about that. So we actually had had a question about That are we in a, you know, general Development trend you can date it back as far as maybe web 2.0 as you mentioned pj And then you kind of have massive internet adoption that gets fueled by the smartphone around 2008 2009 And then, you know, that propels propels a new network effect Suddenly you have, you know, global growing GDP in many many countries more internet users coming in and suddenly you have a Massive market. So with the change is happening now such as crypto or 5g New companies being founded. Is it is it just a continuum of the same trends? Are we kind of just fortifying and developing these, you know Structures that we created in in the internet this kind of platforms or or this Is this a bigger some talk about the fourth industrial revolution with AI and machine learning? But is it just, you know, how do you view it? You it is it the big paradigm shift or is it a continuum of what's already happening? Well, well, I think it's um, it's more profound It has more profound impact than in the past because I think We started at the sort of at the surface with, you know, the as I referred to earlier the shop window and then So moved closer and closer to the core and more and more industries are being Being sort of changed to be on recognition and some of them have already gone through that You know, I would say that, you know If you look at the music industry, which I had a front seat that that transition That is continuing to change and and where the powers are being sort of Moving out into the two Endpoints of that continuum where where you have the consumers getting more value for it And also the artists are getting closer to the money and the middleman are sort of Disappearing out of the Of the equation Gradually so and and I think this is moving more and more into more and more industries and and Probably the lowest hanging fruit is the financial industry Which I think someone said that it represents some 10 to 15 percent of the global global gdp And if you if you think of it the only thing that the financial market is designed for is to be oil in the machinery It's it has no Other value than being oil in the machinery and it shouldn't be actually consumed. It should should be Should be actually used to For other purposes, but it's it's eating up 15 percent of the economy And it should probably only eat up like two three percent of the economy. So there's a tremendous Creative destruction that I think we have Head of America and I think they they will be driven by by for instance ai and and 5g and and the technologies and and I think something that Um when you mentioned also that the no code low code Transition that's also happening is if you think of it, there are some 25 million code like developers in the world And and they are serving a market that is exploding in size But if you change the way you access Uh, you know building of products and and instead you have to build each legal piece From the scrap and bottom up, but instead you get a hand in the box of Legos and everyone can be a developer all of a sudden And then you don't have 25 we have 250 million developers that is awesomely exciting Yeah And just to add on to that, you know, I think some have said the word finance shouldn't even exist Like what does it mean? Right? Like empowering you to do stuff with money? Well, what is money? Well, it gives you power to do other stuff Great, but you know to PJ's point we're seeing, you know e-commerce talk about a sector that's been forever changed now You know that we've been completely digitized We're seeing e-commerce companies Become financial companies using these no code or low code or api based tools Whereas before they had, you know merchants had to work directly with the bank and then work with their portal to kind of Talk to their customers now the two can come kind of in one package And so you're starting to see the erosion of this idea of finance from, you know Different service providers around kind of the the business Because people can use these financial tools as components. They can build with finance Legos like plaid like stripe Like, you know one that we're looking to invest in right now That is, you know looking to become the neobank for, you know, s and d e-commerce merchants And and true layer, which is one of our companies Yes And yeah, sorry just just to finish that I don't think it's it's like, uh, you know A lucky coincidence that, you know north zone alone Out of our our portfolio of 63 right now has eight new unicorns since, you know, just the last Few months and under a year, uh, you know, I think that that is, you know One data point from from our kind of very biased perspective, obviously that that, you know Things are really changing across all these sectors Yeah, exactly. It is it is a very Fascinating time for companies and let's hope the momentum keeps on Do you see any other big sectors? as as big as as finance and That truly, you know needs an overhaul Are there some other low-hanging fruits some talk about b2b platform economy being the next big thing, but what else? Well, I I can I can say that there There are a number of of areas that um are um being impacted as like the the first Order of change right now for many Many companies and and businesses is that they're looking at their business processes and how they can be Be improved and Interestingly enough Like if you go to a HR function in a company They have surprisingly similar requirements if you go from one company to another and for some reason up until recently Pretty much all the the platforms they were made upon the idea that You had to sort of create one Uniform idea around your company Whereas now, uh, I think the b2b software Revolution is about that which processes Do we have and how can we optimize them and then you go out and basically shop for um a solution that that can help you really improve that process and now for instance One of our portfolio companies personio is one of those HR platforms that you get on tap You can be productive from day one. You have pretty much the same need as the next door company of about the same size And and it's not only HR. It's pretty much all the core business functions and core work streams in across most industries that Undergo that change right now. And so it's a tremendous tremendous Change in perspective on how you work as a company And the other area that I would like also to highlight is healthcare healthcare has complexity that it's so localized and so Localized because everyone has different rules on financing and also The treatment ideas have up until very recently been, you know in person Converged to To practices or to hospitals and that has driven an enormous amount of of It costs into a very specific way to to deliver healthcare And and obviously the cost for for the healthcare has to go down over time and Now with with the coveted where we can't even go to the hospital at times the door has been swung open For a digital disruption here. So I see enormous changes in the healthcare going forward Yeah Just to touch on that, you know, it's one of the few markets we see for for good reasons You know, many would agree that the person who is who's paying for the service is not the one receiving for it receiving the service and so as such the market can be really inefficient in different ways And create all these pockets of value of misaligned incentives And I think we're just in our way of like reverse engineering that we see a lot of great companies Reverse engineering that complex incentive system by going directly to the consumer and saying here's your healthcare options You know spring health is a great example of that here's kind of what's best for you Let us take care of the payments and sort of all of that administrative part But um, we'll empower you with a better experience and better data to support Improving that experience over time and you know, we think there's a tremendous opportunity there for companies to To kind of grab the consumer's perspective And help them understand their data But there's also a lot of b2b opportunities there to kind of uh, in in you know, in more abstract ways You know connect to the pockets of value and just democratize sort of the data in a way that empowers the consumer you know, and so Um, I'm not sure if that buzzer means we're out of time or No, is that as is your phone? Okay I think one one more area to talk about which I briefly touched on is uh commerce, right? I think the fact that even has e in front of it as as now a staple idea is it means it's it's been permanently changed in ways that we can't We can't sort of uh rewind If you think about how you make a purchase decision today versus maybe how how your parents did, you know 20 years ago the first impulses are different, right? Um, you don't think to grab your keys to the car and go somewhere or you know You don't think to to leave your house, uh, you immediately grab that You know black mirror phone and it starts, you know, clicking on the buttons. You're used to clicking And for many of us it's amazon Unfortunately, or I may be fortunately for some but you know, I think that consumer journey has changed in such Dramatic ways that it creates so many new entrance sort of possibilities for for companies to intersect that journey using different ways to compete In and I think we're seeing a ton of that explosion and kind of e-commerce and aberman tool certainly we see a proliferation of e-commerce brands and and we've invested in a number of really successful ones in europe including naked Different business models bringing creators of commerce content to you know, the the consumer in different ways And also different ways to engage people as stakeholders around commerce because we used to only buy from brands And now we we like live brands we advocate for them. We design for them. We support we create, you know We work for brands and so We're seeing a lot of kind of commerce enablement tools helping brands and companies deal with this new consumer relationship differently in a 360 kind of way rather than just like a linear path to purchase funnel Um and a lot of that money that used to be spent on things like trade Which is just pockets of money, you know poured into retailers pockets We're being we're seeing it, you know spent in other ways to access the consumer even maybe give back to the consumer I think stakeholder ownership of brands is is going to become a thing And then, you know, we're seeing also a lot of improvements on just how to get the goods to the consumer in kind of a faster Better cheaper way our our portfolio company flink does quick, you know quick commerce delivery and and you know their their processes are just You know insane and then a lot of what they do couldn't have been built, you know prior to this behavior change That was partially driven by covet but also because of again of these underlying components of tech that you know were primitives Just, you know, more recently that they could build on top of Lastly maybe to round off then Super exciting trends for the world a great time to to be an entrepreneur and also be a consumer What's Europe's role going to be in all of this? Is it now the era of european companies are we are we finally going to be able to compete with With, you know, the u.s. and china in in many sectors or are we at the risk of maybe over regulating? and are we at the risk of a of a very You know widespread and Different home market than for instance, China and the u.s. Has so a couple of questions on there, I think the The fabric of the european economy is so strong and and now also I think entrepreneurship has become Also the one of the most Talked about changes if and if you go to any university In the world or in Europe Entrepreneurship is as basically at the top of the agenda and that was certainly not the case when I went to college and you know 35 years ago so so it's it's That's a that's a fundamental shift and I think Europe has really good school traditions and and such so I think that There is a disruption that will be driven by europeans and european companies And what I'm more worried about is also that there are basically three different systems that are emerging right now one is in a Autocratic authoritarian system that is, you know top Top driven and where we're basically, you know, the chinese system where they can optimize for for their power in the world And then there's the u.s. System, which basically is where where the government is Is basically outsourcing policy decisions to companies And and corpus whereas whereas in europe, we I think we have a much more a stronger consumer protection ethos and that I think I like as a as a citizen of europe And and I really hope that that will be competitive in in an area where you have basically two different forces But I'm I'm I'm not sure like quite frankly Yeah, definitely. I agree that we hope that that's going to be the winning case because it sounds like it's the best way for the consumer to go forward as well I don't I don't even think europe being the underdog is is like a relevant place to start from anymore because You know carna is a 31 billion dollar company We also have, you know Deb did a dog and you know, obviously spotify and you know, some of the Biggest companies started by european founders that people would think are american and that's just a bias, right? and You know regardless of kind of where the organization is built I don't think that's you know Also as relevant as it used to be and you see that more in kind of these developer facing Companies that that have been more distributed kind of as a first mover to start with And so, you know, that's I think another if you just look at the data, you know, europe is is more than capable of producing Deca-corns or multi-deca-corns Yeah, I think that's an excellent point and it's good that we're speaking up for the european ecosystem as well and The future looks looks a lot better and there's been There's been some great stories and i'm sure there are more to more to come We could go on all day. I'm I'm sure but we need to to let you get on with your days But it's been it's been a pleasure having you on when it has. Thank you so much for for joining Thank you so much. Thank you for having us. Thank you. Yeah, it's just fun And thank you to everyone who tuned in See you in the fall for some new episodes and until then get vaccinated and stay safe. Bye Bye