 All right, I'm going to jump in with the library news so we can go ahead and get started with the panel. I want to thank you of course all for joining us tonight. And this is part of our more than a month celebration. We love the mystery writers almost as much as you do. So we appreciate you spending on your Wednesday night with us. We the library would like to acknowledge that we occupy the unseated ancestral homeland of the raw mutish alone peoples, who are the uninhabited poor the original inhabitants of the San Francisco Peninsula. We recognize that we've benefited from living and working on their traditional homeland as uninvited guests, we affirm their sovereign rights as first peoples, and wish to pay our respects to the ancestors, elders and relatives of the raw mutish community. And we'll see in the chat box a link to some reading lists that we created, as well as websites and great resources to learn more about Bay Area first peoples and some great places you could donate to. So this is part of our more than a month celebration what I already mentioned and that's the libraries version of black history month which we start at MLK weekend and run it all through February and we've had an amazing lineup. So I definitely encourage you to search our YouTube page which has a lot of the events recorded there. And I'll just mention that this year's national theme for black history month is black health and black wellness. So we really embrace that. And you can see the beautiful artwork by Tiffany Conway we're so fortunate to be able to work with an artist who created that work specifically for us if you go to the main library. You will see this thing just dawning the entire side of the building it's amazing to see it huge. I'm doing an artist spotlight on our YouTube channel. Next Tuesday we have for on the same page which is San Francisco public libraries by monthly read celebrating the amazing Jessamine Stanley. This book is available at all our branches right now you can walk in and pick one up off the shelf. You can see, I loved it. I am going to be a total fangirl on this night. And she will be in conversation with Tamika Castan Miller. So Tuesday, 7pm. Don't miss it. The amazing Dennis Phillips is hosting meditation every Wednesday in our African American Center. Dennis Phillips is a library long time long time long time library patron. We love him dearly, but he can also be seen in Netflix Crip camps he's an activist, and it's just a leader. And he's come checking out. He does meditation we're trying to figure out how we can keep him every Wednesday. This Sunday, again in person yes these are in person we're gathering where that mask though, and we'll space out but it's time to get back together friends. We have artist Ramacan Oristers, who is going to be leading a crochet jam and this is really all about community wellness, being together and get in that zone of doing a craft. So come by Sunday. It's a good day at the library at the main library because it's also the heart of the city farmers market right across the street. And every Thursday we are hosting our Thursday at noon film series and we're featuring high on the hog how African American cuisine transformed America. And then one last author talk coming up next week. Charlie Jane Anders SF icon will be in combo with Heather Knight and Peter Hartlock of the SF Chronicle total SF in person correct auditorium or streaming if you're not ready to come out. The correct is very spacious so there's a lot of room, everyone will still be masked it's still a requirement at our library. So come check that out Charlie Jane is a total leader and a she's along to been running a long time author talk called writers with drinks and that is also picking back up. And she's a total advocate of authors and books first so come check it out. And of course we could not do any of this without our friends in the San Francisco Public Library who we thank very much for supporting all that we do. Right, I'm almost done talking. Yay. I'm super excited about tonight we love doing the mystery panels because you all love it and it's so great to have a turnout for this and we do this with all of our campaigns it's been a now going on quite a while we've we've pulled together these panels and the crime writers come out and the crime lovers come out. So tonight, we're going to see who is on our panel we are missing a few people due to just our emergencies and so we're going to cross our fingers. But we have in the house Tracy Clark delia pits and they snowed in, and they are featured in midnight hour, and this is a chilling anthology. So without further ado, I'm going to let them introduce themselves and you know they're also their bios are in that doc and they definitely are some brilliant, brilliant women. All right, without and I see a hand raised we'll have some time for q&a towards the end. I want to stop sharing and turn it over to the panel. Great. Delia, I see that you are the first in my Brady bunch screen. So do you want to go ahead and go first. Sure, happy to. First let me say a big thank you to San Francisco Public Library for sponsoring this panel it was great that you brought us all together in this way and that you brought so many fans and readers of mystery stories, and gave us all an opportunity to talk with them so thank you very much San Francisco Public Library. My name is Delia pits, and I'm very honored to be here with two great mystery writers today. I was also honored to have a short story included in the anthology that we're basing our panel on today midnight hour, and we'll I think discuss probably each of our stories a little bit more. And I mentioned that in addition to the short story writing that I've, I've enjoyed I also have a mystery series of novels. This is a series of novels that contemporary, the noir, their private eye, they're set in Harlem, and I invite you all to, to take a look when you get a chance. Oh, you. Oh, okay. My name is face noden and I also want to thank the San Francisco Public Library for having me so great event. Love talking about writing will do it any chance that I get so this is wonderful. I have a story in midnight hour, a little story called chefs. I'm also a writer of a dark Southern Gothic fiction, very, very dark, and I have a series out right now called the killing fire. And the first book in that series of killing fire was published, I believe in 2019, but some exciting news, I have a new sequel in that series that's coming out in June 2022. I'm trying my hand at short stories so I have a few short stories and other anthologies and I also have one coming out. I'm in the low down dirty vote anthology, and I believe that's coming out July 4. So again, thank you. Tracy. Same here. Glad to be here with these talented ladies. I've got lucky 13. That's my entry into the midnight hour anthology. And when I'm not writing short stories and carrying my hair out. I write a PI series set in Chicago, featuring an African American female PI by the name of Cass rains. There are four books in the series so far and pretty excited about it so let's get talking. Yeah. So I have a question. I have a question that man. So my question is we all written novels. But, and this is the question I've been thinking about because short stories just like screenplays a few years ago used to scare the crap out of me I was like, I can't do it I can't do. I'm still scared to screenplays but I'm not so frightened of short stories because I can pull one off to a few off, but I have to ask you guys, what. What do you think are the biggest differences and challenges of writing a short story versus writing a longer work. I can say that they're the two forms are quite different. It's, it's not like just taking your novel and chopping it off at the knees and it becomes a short story. You have to think about the structure in a very different way you have to think about the language and the presentation and the punch that you need to bring to a short story in a way that you would you have room to develop in a novel, I'd say, you still want to get that first chapter in in a novel you want to get that first paragraph line in to grab the reader's attention, of course, but you don't have to deliver as much information I think in that first chapter of a novel, as you would in a short story I remember when I wrote this story that's in midnight hour called midnight confidential. And I want it instantly. It's written in the first person. And I think the first sentence I have the, the person the speakers say is that she hitched her bra strap into the groove on her shoulder. I did that largely because I wanted it to be known instantly, obviously that this was a woman. And I didn't want, since I was writing first person I, I didn't want to mess around with that fundamental fact and then very quickly I got, maybe within a three sentences got the fact in that she was African American I, I felt the need to move that in a way that if I was writing a story, I mean a novel I might have, it might have gone on for a couple of paragraphs before those things became crystal clear. Interesting. That's what makes short story so difficult I mean you have to do 90,000 words of information in arc and all the rest of that, in 5000 words, the panic sort of sets in right away for me. It's only my second short story. So I did wasn't really that familiar or that comfortable with the format. You know so the after the panic sort of died down a little bit, and I sort of eased into the story. The same elements are there you just have to be quicker, as Dalia said, and getting to your point. And you have to have all of those interesting craft elements in there, but you have to sort of condensed them and get to the, to the thing faster So it takes a skill, a talent, those who do it well, I applaud them, but for the long formers like our novel writers it's sort of an exercise it really is something that you really have to focus on and concentrate on. And then I just like the fact that you need to be able to convey a lot of, like you guys said a lot of information in a very short time span, and in very few words, and I like, I like images right instead of saying that So just kind of spelling it out, I like to have put this image out there and have the reader kind of understand like the broad strap I read that the broth or moving up the broad strap. So that's an access so much right. So I kind of like that, like doing those and star stories. And the other part that I like is I like the fact. I like to cut, right. There's a lot of people say oh my goodness I hate having to cut so much out. But sometimes when you cut words and images, you just end up with, with the so much with a very sharp, a very sharp story that moves rather quickly is what I like about it I just see it. So when I write a short story, you know I roam around the house sighing my head to my forehead. Oh my goodness. And then I have a clipboard and some scratch paper, but then when I get to writing it's like I'll write like five to 7,000 words but that short story when it ends may just be 1000 1500 most I think like 2000 words so I and I kind of like kind of sculpting I always wanted to be a visual artist or sculptor which I'm, you know I have no talent that, but to me it's almost like taking all those words or that stone and finding the the gold or the gym within it so yeah. How did you all work in setting into those very few words that we have allotted to us in a short story I found that very tough. The weather, the place, the time even the timeframe is this now or is this a decade ago or is this a century ago how did you work with those questions of setting. I think you have to really get specific about what words you use. I think it's all in word usage. I described the setting with this story as he lives in the raggedy house on a raggedy block. I mean everybody can sort of put in their mind what image of that would be that saves me a lot of word right there I don't have to go beyond that. I'm just selecting the right word in the right place to sort of save yourself a lot of real estate so that takes also a lot of time to sort of find the right word, put it in the right place. Invoke an image so that you don't have to actually put it on on the page. So, again, takes a great lot of skill for somebody to sort of do that. I applaud the people who do it well. I think there is also a little bit of trusting your reader right when I first started writing. I thought that I know Natalie Goldberg in her book writing down the bones. I believe that was it or maybe it was Annie Lamont or Anna Mont, but she talked about marrying the fly right. When I first started writing I want to describe if somebody was holding a glass cup I thought I had to describe the cup and wicked detail you know the little bubbles of water, the condensation, and people would say oh my gosh description. Some people loved it but a lot of readers especially the day with the attention span. They, you know they're not too much into that. So you want to just say she held a glass of water and then trust the reader to kind of picture that and in their head. So what I chose my settings is I was telling somebody else this is that usually setting doesn't come to me first it's the voice. It's like somebody who kind of you guys going to become. I am a little bit but I'll just start hearing this voice and seeing this person with the problem in my head and a person just starts getting so insistent that I have to kind of get that out on paper. This person was the person that's in the short story named chefs Johnny is actually a vet, but he's also an older man who's kind of coming in terms to terms with being middle age, who's dating this this younger woman. And so he I saw him first and then I'm a commuter I live in the Bay Area. So I used to have to drive to work every day. And it was a journey that a lot of people don't like their commutes I still love my commute. But because it was a way to wind down after work and you got to see you know the what was going on outside and I listened to audio books. But I've always been fascinated by that drive from the Bay Area, when you're going down to 99 and you get on the 120 to Modesto where I live. And then you see all the fields that are out there and I just remember seeing this pumpkin field that was all the pumpkin troughs matched up it was toward the end of the season or whatever. And it just, that's how I chose my setting and in this journey continues and they drive down to 120 and then the, I'm sorry the 120 then the 99 gets off on Karen and shoots down Karen and where there were several abandoned houses that have always fascinated me. And that's how I was able to come up with the setting for that story. It's interesting. I kept, I found that it helped me in my story, midnight confidential to be very, very confined. The whole story takes place in the single interrogation room in a police precinct. Some, of course, the character, the voice, the narrator talks a bit about her life and how her career and how she got to this point. But essentially she's just bringing us into that interrogation room so I found that it helped me keep the pace but also keep the descriptions to a form by literally confining all the characters to a single room. The, the person she's interviewing comes in, and then her lieutenant is she's aware is looking through the one way mirror over her shoulder. And there's a young cop who's acting as sort of a guard in the room. And so she's talking about all these different people but it's literally within four square walls. And, and I found that help just helpful. I found it easier to make it into a short story and stop being a novel. It's the same thing. It takes place in a house. Okay, four walls, one door, couple of windows. Easier for me because I don't have to describe a whole lot of stuff. And it's very much a two person sort of a deal, sort of a back and forth, sort of a tennis match. So that's easier for me because characters is where my head is usually at most of the time I love characters I love the interplay between characters. And this is sort of a two person match, taking place in this one little house so easier 5000 words, very containable, very doable. Okay, I've got to ask that question, pancer or plotter. And is that a relevant distinction in a short story. Maybe talk about it in novels as well maybe we ought to explain what pants, pancers are. The distinction is maybe a distinction without a meaning but essentially, pancers are writers who go at their short stories by the seat of their pants. And then the plotters are people who plot, not plotting, but plotting their story with a number of varying degrees of specificity as they outline the, the progress that they want to bring their characters through to the end so pancers versus plotters ladies. And I think your pants or whatever format you're in. It's just the way our brains work. I think short stories would probably be easier for outliners because it's very easy to sort of set the thing out. So you know where you're going. And then the rest of us sort of ping pong our way around and try to find a story and an idea and characters and stuff like that, you know, by the seat of our pants, but I think it's more difficult for panters to write short stories and that's just my opinion. I've only written to you, but that's, I'm thinking that's probably the case. Yeah, two fine ones right and then one was lucky 13. Yes. Yeah, so I, that is so interesting. So when I'm writing my novels, I, I start with my character so I define all my folks. And then I, I, and it's a mystery novel right so I feel like I have to have a really good understanding of the crime upfront. And then sometimes I describe my define my character so well, and that I fall in love with my murderer, so I don't want them to be the killer. That's when I kind of try to pants it off. Yeah, I try to make her innocent. So what I do is I describe my murder and I figure I know who did it when I'm starting the book. And then after that I kind of write the bones like the scaffolding. And then when I'm writing, I put flesh on the bones, but I'm never like, totally. I'm not going to adhere to my scaffolding originally right I'll go off and, and then do some other things for short stories, I think it requires, I don't know how you guys feel about it but I think it requires a little bit more discipline right because So I'll start with I love Natalie Goldberg writing down the bones and all that and like free writing on. And I think it's important I start with a free writing I get some first lines out and some images. But then once I get a good story going, I will do beginning, middle, and, and I'll have that kind of all kind of chunk out, and then I write to make sure that it fits within that structure so have that arc. Tracy, I thought you were going to use your image that I've heard you used before, throwing spaghetti against the wall. That's what I do. That is it. I mean, I come up with an idea of what I think the story is going to be about, and I try it out a little bit. It doesn't work and I start again and try something out. That's exactly it. I have no idea where I'm going when I sit down at my writing desk. I might have a glimmer of an idea of what I think the story will be on who the characters will be and then halfway through whatever session that is that might change five times. So, you know, I have no idea. Whatever I come up with that's what I come up with. I find that I find that in my short stories and I've written a number of them in a variety of genres I started out writing fan fiction and have written more than 60 stories short, varying from 500 word flash fiction to sort of novellas and novellas that are 10 and 12,000 words. So I've written a lot of different kinds of short stories, but I found particularly with the shorter end of the short story spectrum that if I thought of the first the character's voice as you were saying, but then if I thought about an inflection point in that character's life in that character's career or story as they move through their lives, what I if I could pick that moment, and maybe the immediate frame around that inflection moment, that was a that was a way to confine the story again I'm always looking for a way to make it short, as opposed to making it a novel. And if I found a turning point, a point from which that character couldn't go back, a point that made that character different from what she was when we started the story to when we end the story, and I kept it as close around that point. Then I found that I had some success in, in making it a short story but making it a powerful story. I hope. And I, and I love that and sometimes it wasn't listening to you I was thinking about, you know what I was saying, like you know I wait for the voice to come to me and then, then I decide and they talk, but to, it's not all that mysterious right I mean, and if I were to back up and listen to you and thinking about it it's a it's a lot about, I think, craft, and also about intention, right. So when I do short stories, I do start with a subject I want to write about. And lately, because the genres that we write in sometimes have these rules that kind of keep you a little bit kind of roped in a little bit I mean there's some room from transgressing some transgression and in my novels I might break all kind of genre rules but in a short story I feel that there's just a little bit more freedom right. So what I wanted to do was to take these incidents of little known black history moments that I think people should know about, but they don't. And that's the subject matter I try to build a short story around that subject matter, and then I look for you know the character and I try lines on and off you know first line last lines and situations. So it is a little bit about intention and craft as well I think. I have no intention. No purpose. No, I don't. Lucky 13 came about because I saw an old man carrying his groceries on the sidewalk. And that's how my story starts, because now I'm starting to wonder, where is this old man going. Why is he carrying his groceries he's kind of old. I'm waiting for him at home, if anybody. And that's where my story started. I just sort of took that little image of that little man. And then I sort of sat down because Abby was waiting for this short story to be written, and I started. And then I'm wondering what this person is who this person is, what is his life like, and then the twist become comes because now I'm wondering. Well, I don't, what's happened in this guy's life. That could be sort of interesting and sort of flippy and kinky. And that's where it starts, then you sort of build kind of like building a Lego house one brick at a time. You've got your character, you've got your setting this one little house, and the interesting guy wondering about his life. And then you just sort of right. And that's how panthers do it. And just because that's how our brains work. I mean, I wish I could sort of sit down, like the geniuses that sort of outline everything and have character descriptions and they know what social size their character wears and what color their character. They know all of that information. Before they start their writing, and I don't, I have to this day I could not tell you what size shoe cast range wears. I don't care. I don't think readers care. She is who she is. What's interesting about her is what's inside of her what she wears and how she wears it. I don't think anybody, you know, gives that much care about I don't. Oh, so I don't write it. But yeah, so the idea sort of start where they start, and they lead you where they lead you. And one writing session might be great you might just sort of tear through a thousand words at once. The next day you come back and half of those you have to tear up, and you only write 20 for that day. So that's how pants is sort of, sort of go it's just a stressful sort of a tense filled sort of a way of doing it but that's, that's the kind of brain that we have as a Capricorn that makes me itch. I found some plans so that makes me itch. Capricorn here to Capricorn to in my brain when I, if I have to wait it all out like that like an outline that my brain says hey you've written your story you're done. And you haven't even started. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. No that's true. Yeah, when you were talking Tracy I was thinking about your, you're almost as curious as the reader. So you start from a point of curiosity, and I can imagine how that, you know, passion to know what this little old man carrying his groceries for you and you could put that in the story and then when a reader sits down they're wondering the same thing so you almost have this like synergy with your readers me and a panther back and do. And I know I agree. I sat down to write a story thinking I know who the killer is and who gets killed, and it changes. I might find an interesting way of telling that story. And the killer might change the victim might change. So all of that is sort of up in the air and I just have to sort of see where it goes and what feels comfortable what has a rhythm and abide to it. I might write 500 words and, you know, have to throw all that out, because I found a more interesting way of doing it. So, you know, it's kind of fun. It's kind of stressful, but the new capricorns are weird I mean. Although I agree with, I am a Capricorn December 31. But I also agree. Yeah. The whole world is celebrating exactly. And they wait for it to be over right. I also agree, Tracy with the notion that the characters, and even the story itself has to be allowed to flow in its to its own level in its own course and I remember very much in this story that's in the anthology we're talking about today. Coming to a point in the writing process when I thought, that's not the way I mean to end it. I'm good it needs to end in a different way than I started out thinking it was going to end I was might like the character, I was myself in a what is she going to do to get herself and her so informant out of this fix. And I, she as she played around with it I played around with it and we worked, I think between the two of us, the character and me, we came out with a pretty cool solution that got everybody off the hook and and and perhaps not undo all the corruption that they'd been involved in but at least they were off the hook temporarily. But that was a process that evolved and I where I had thought I was going to end is not where I ended up ending that story. So you're sort of a panther. I'm sort of a panther, for sure. No spaghetti on the wall but yes. Don't knock it to you try it. I have to have some type of rails guard rails. Yeah, yeah. So somebody asked a question in the chat how long does it take you to write a short story. Oh, how long is the string. It depends on when the deadline is right because I'm also Exactly. Before it's due. I think I know for me the ideas that I used in this story were ones that I had worked over in a different story. And maybe three years before. And I then cut it up, reformulated it, sewed it back together changed a lot of the circumstances, but kept some of the cool descriptions that I like the best kept some of the dialogue that I enjoyed. So this one was something that probably was in my mind for four or five years not in its finished form, not to be put into this anthology because this was, I started writing it long before the anthology was dreamt of a week to write mine, because I sort of wrote it in between the books. So that line was looming. I hadn't sort of gotten my idea yet, until I saw the old man and so about a week maybe start to finish. But that was sort of panic time. So it was accelerated so I wrote really quickly because I knew I had to. The short story that I wrote for the low down dirty vote of anthology, because that was like both procrastinating and life events I worked that in a weekend, because and, you know, misty was like oh Faye we can give you. And it was it was a huge life event it was my, I lost my stepmom unexpectedly, kind of expectively but it's never you can never expect those things. And it was like what we'll, you know, you will give you a little longer and I'm like no I'm going to turn mine in when everybody else turns theirs in I want to be treated the same as everybody else so which that may be a capricorn. I don't know what that is that's just a thing that not very healthy. But anyway, after we got everything taken care of for her. And I just spent that weekend just writing that short story and it was good I mean I liked it I liked what I came up with I was surprised as heck that I was able to do it and you know you start off with that blank page and I usually write on scratch paper so take a novel that or something that I printed out now X out the front, the letters on the front I mean whatever on the front and then I'll write on the back of that paper. So, I was staring at that black paper blank page just like in a total panic, but it was, it was the Halloween weekend that I was able to finish that. The other thing is is that Lietta, I think ask. Have you guys always been into crime and mystery, or even as a young reader. Yes. I started reading. I, I don't know when I started reading but I know that I always enjoyed mysteries short stories Sherlock Holmes was for many years and still is the books of the stories that I go back to at least once a year I try to read many of the Sherlock Holmes stories. When I was in grade school and then certainly in by middle school I was reading Agatha Christie but also some of the British tradition the most traditional of the British lady crime writers, Marjorie Alling hand Dorothy L Sayers, PD James a little bit later by high school. So I was always very involved in a high school friend recently told me that she remembered me in high school, reading a mystery story from the back forward. She said it would drive her crazy I don't remember this but she said that what I did was, you know, get the book out of the library. Read it, start reading the end. And she asked me challenge me why are you doing this this is horrible and I said because I want to know how she wrote the story. And so I guess I was always meant to be a mystery writer. I'm sort of the same thing. I started sort of like Nancy Drew books party boys right. I had sort of segwayed into Agatha Christie, and I read all of those. And then I sort of got to that sort of period that early 80s when this great wave of female crime writers sort of came out. So I was really into that and that sort of hit me right at the same spot where I was starting to seriously sit down sort of try to write something of my own. So I sort of had those and as an example and something to aspire to, but it was always mysteries it was always dead bodies and puzzles and it didn't interest me at all. It was all about the crime. So, you know, I guess prime writers are born not made. At least I sort of would like to think so. And that's just sort of our sweet spot. Yeah I started I mean I had a love for literature and writing very very early on I came from a family of writers my dad was a hero poems and have them self published and then I also had an ant that that's what he said and was that California, Louisiana and aunt and aunt. She wrote books, and she wrote a book called it's good to be black and 1954 which I thought was very brave of her. And then another uncle who wrote for gun smoke. And that's why I came from a family of writers and my mom was scared to death when I told her that I wanted to be a writer because she did she looked at me and go full writers don't make no money. Like do something else and she says wouldn't even you know I kind of laugh and I say that even my home at teacher needs a home economics. I told her I wanted to be a writer and she looked at me and said, What else do you like to do. And I said, I don't know push buttons and so I went into the it a computer key. Anyway, so I've always love literature is usually we kind of grew up with like, you know, the poems of in the Harlem Renaissance and all of that. And I started, you know, watching TV didn't have a very happy childhood so I did a lot of I did a lot of work on the shape and TV, and I was just a hold at not seeing anyone that looked like me. Looked at a horror on Star Trek, I was just mad at the way they treated her. And then, you know, and then of course I watched bewitched and I was mad at the way she was treated as a woman what do you mean she can't lose her magic. And so I would just make up little stories in my head, little alternate stories about the horror being the star of the show and Sam on bewitched being the star and just it was I just created this old little fantasy world and ever since then I've been compelled to write. So, it's like a my star. And I just wanted to ask about since you touched on that, Fay about focusing as so many of our stories have on black characters on exploring African American experiences contemporary experiences sometimes historical experiences. I want to talk a little bit about how that plays into the crime genre in particular through yours, not only in the stories but also your novels. Yeah, that is that is interesting to me. And there's always this conversation about if you're a black writer. Do you need to focus on a, and like an, you know, an African American Malou, I mean, is that what you need to write about African American characters and predominantly black settings and, and I think I mean, I think that it's depend on what characters that you want to write what story you're trying to tell. If you're trying to tell a realistic story, you know, there's, it's diverse I mean there's all kinds of people in that story. I think it's incumbent upon you as a writer if you're trying to tell it could tell a contemporary realistic story to include all flavors of those characters in your, in your books, let me back up. You don't have to do anything you don't want to do if you're a writer but I think if you want to be read and, and, but I think you just got to be realistic, but I also think that you write anything you want. You don't want to write anything that moves you. And I also like to think as a English major, English literature major, and to haven't studied really studied critical race theory theory not all the stuff people are talking about in the news. I mean because they have to read a speech by Malcolm X and may feel bad. But even if you don't write about it, what you say and in the subtext and how you feel. That's going to come out that's going to be there in the subtext you're going to be able to kind of see that. And I'll just say one more thing and then I'll shut my mouth. So you remember in. They called them the white savior movies so they'll have this movie, and then it'll be like all black cast and black story, and all of a sudden this white savior will come up and save everybody and save the day. And those people that sat down and wrote those screenplays didn't say, I'm going to write about a white person saving the day for this group of black people right, but because of where they're from. How they see the world, how they engage with the world. That's the story that came out. So I think that even when you're not writing about it, you're writing about it in a way. What do you think Tracy. I think that's true. Um, when I started seriously writing about this character. I very specifically wanted her to be African American and female. I had that before I had anything else. So I wanted to see myself on the page. I enjoyed these mysteries, these series that were written by these wonderful writers but I was not in there. You know, it became very clear that I was not in there. And I figured I could sort of write a hero of my own, a main character that was just as smart, just as accomplished, just as capable as these other people. And that was my main focus when I started. And then it was just a matter of putting that point of view that world view on the age. This character is a private investigator. She does not go out of her house in the morning and say I'm going to be black today. She is just who she is. This is what she does. This is where she's coming from this is where she originated from. This is her viewpoint. This is how she looks at the world. And then the case is in front of her and she has to deal with that. But the interesting thing about this for me is sort of showing readers or presenting to readers this alternate perspective. It's not something that I hit over the head. This is not something that I preach about, but she is going through the world in her own specificity. She's not anybody else but herself. This is a background that she's dealing with. This is what she sees. And this is how she sort of deals with the bureaucracies around her. The police department, the municipal organizations that she has to come up against in the venture in the sort of course of doing her work. They see her in a certain way. She does not sort of present herself that way. She's just presenting herself as an investigator trying to solve a problem. But when they look at her, they see a black woman and then she has to deal with whatever that whatever comes. So it's interesting to sort of play with that in the context of crime fiction in the context of PI sort of a dynamic. So yeah, that's what my motivation is. That's what I'm doing. And I'm getting kind of good at it. So I hope readers enjoy it. I found very much agreeing absolutely with what both of you are saying. I found that when I created the setting for my PI series, I found it very easy to want to create a world that was largely black set in Harlem. And I ended that very much on purpose, because I didn't see the characters spending a lot of time talking about their blackness. Right. They were black, as Tracy said they get up in the morning they go out not being black they go out into the world, hoping to solve little tensions and disturbances in their neighborhood. This is something that I wanted to focus on was the the the background tension of course is that most of the people in the neighborhood that is very distressed and pressed do not want to bring their problems to the police. Sometimes they have issues and situations that fall below the radar of the police and the police don't wouldn't bother with them anyway. And so they come to the little detective agency that I invented. And in other cases, perhaps the the crimes that occur might have risen to the level of calling for police or official intervention, but people don't want to their I didn't go in. I don't go into great philosophical discussions about police community tensions or policing issues in the black community, because that I don't think is the way people talk from day to day. But it's simply a given that the choice, if given one is to go to this small neighborhood detective agency that I made up, and to throw your problems and your concerns into the hands of some detectives who look like you, and who come from your community. So that was sort of the basis for how I then developed my PI series. And it reminds me of, you know, and I know Morrison didn't write. I'm crime fiction, though I think beloved as a crime novel but centers around murder but yeah it's like writing about the black community, not the black community in relation to another community right with that. Yeah, and I also wanted to underline that the, the African American or the black community was diverse in and of itself is that so I liked being able to bring into my novels the the immigrant African experience. The fact that there are Chinese Americans who own shops and there are Latinos who operate shops and also operate other less noble enterprises in the neighborhood that there is a variety within the community there's a variety of religious experiences there's a variety of language experiences of educational background of economic background all of that is found within the community. There's, you can go the entire book without speaking to or about a white person and have a completely diverse and vibrant experience in the fictional world that I work in. Yeah, that's great. You know I thought we might want to talk a little bit about crime writers of color, which is sort of the organization which underpinned our book midnight hour and enabled us to to get to the point where we could have a collection and anthology like midnight hour that who wants to give a thumbnail or a long mail description of crime writers of color. Me. No, I remember way much longer than I have right. I think we sort of started with maybe five or six people and then it's not what over 300, which is fantastic. We have writers of every hue and cry and everybody writes different things which is delicious. We've got really noir and cozies and all kinds of things and it's mostly just for support and commiseration and add a boys and kicks and pants and we just there sort of as a family, supporting each other so I think it's absolutely wonderful for all of us to sort of just have that group to have that support because publishing is a tough business. A lot of rejections a lot of setbacks, you can write for years and never get anywhere you can write for two weeks and get a you know, so it's it's capricious and just to have to have that support, and that family and that foundation. It's just a sort of a wonderful thing. Yeah, and then it was I think it was founded by Walter Moseley gg Paddington at Kelly Garrett. And it kind of came together and it just grew and I was invited by a Rachel house a hall. When I first got back into the writing and she invited me to join the community and I think just like it like you said, and just you know, being able to network and have conversations with other people who understand your own experience that your life isn't publishing. So you don't think that it's a one off right I must be an anomaly and you know people you don't know no that happens and kind of help validate your experiences, and this very tough business. I think one of the wonderful things about crime writers of color a couple of things one, I would definitely point everybody to the fabulous website for crime writers of color and particularly the books section. The marvelous resource Marlard Radine put together and maintains the book page for that website and you can search it anyway from Sunday you can search that website by author name you can search by genre, so that you can find traditional mysteries you can find private I mysteries if you're really into cozy mysteries, you can search by ethnic group and so if you're interested in the Latino or Latino Latin X writers you can type that in and find dozens and dozens of examples. Oh, look who's come Frankie. So I would say that that it's a great resource for anyone who wants to read widely and deeply in the crime genre. There's historical you can find wonderful books in the historical field. And I think it's a great place to go I think the other thing that's really been important to me about crime writers of color is the support that we give each other. And as you said the atta boy, the atta girl the cheerleading that is so important because writing is is often a solitary activity, and it's great to be able to share successes and to share setbacks. It's great to be able to celebrate with someone when a book is released into the world and celebrate that book birthday. It's great to celebrate when someone gets an agent, or someone gets a great movie or television contract. Or when, or when other kinds of really wonderful or public or publishes in a short story or gets awards. All of these things that happen in the course of a writing journey to be able to celebrate them among people who's who are really quite selfless I have to say, really quite supportive, and who who seem, and I do believe have each other's best interests at heart we have each other's backs. Is, is Frankie coming to us. She seems like she is, but she's muted muted Frankie. I'm sorry I had a dog thing going on my dog went in for vaccination. Yesterday I got two shots and I was out trying to cope with him because he's been sleeping a lot so it was trying to get him settled. So, but we're glad to see you thank you introduce yourself a little bit to the group Frankie. Hi, yeah, I'm Frankie Bailey. And I'm a professor at university at Albany criminologists and I have a mystery series featuring crime historian Lizzie Stewart and two police procedural set in Albany and what is now an alternate universe and I'm working on 1939 historical thriller. I do research on crime and detective fiction as well as write it. So, and your story in the in the midnight hour anthology is. Yeah, I'm trying to, what is the name of. Oh, night off. Inspired by the painting. Yes. Very good. Well we're so glad you were able to join us. We've been talking about any number of things here. What's our next question we just got finished talking about, and you might want to comment on crime writers of color as an organization as a, as a gathering as a group. Yeah, I'm really, yeah, I was really excited when it was started because I was, I remember Eleanor Taylor plan and she was always trying to bring together you. The diverse groups of crime writers and so this is just sort of her dream realize in the sense that we are coming together in that forum. Exactly. Another question. Hey, you have a question for all of us. I mean, what are you guys working on what are you working on next you plan to continue. Well, I have a question. I'm going to back up. What advice would you have for someone who wants to write and kind of get into the business. My advice was fool you're not going to make any money doing that. My mother told me my mama said, Oh, you're not going to make any money. But no, but, but yeah, what advice. My advice would be to just write. You don't know what you have until you start. And that's probably the hardest part of it, starting, because you're going to try to convince yourself that you don't have what it takes. You can possibly write a book. It's too long. It's too difficult. Just write. Um, he's got an idea. Put it down on paper. Keep going. Um, this is tough road, a long road, and you have to sort of stick with it. You have to sort of focus and commit to it and just write. I would say join a group. Oh my gosh. Sorry, my dog has to care. Live TV. I agree. I think it's just to write, just to get started writing and do everything you can to kill that inner credit. Just, just put down your words, right, right, like the commercial. So you do it right. Do it. I also think to meet and get to know other writers, whether that's through your local library, maybe there's a club that you could join at your local library. I think it's good to test out your writing. I think at some point, it's not enough, frankly, to just simply write for yourself. I mean, maybe that's your only goal and that's good. But I think there's a difference between writing for yourself and publishing and publishing in the broadest sense means putting it out there in the world for others. It's not necessarily your blood relatives to read and to react to. And I think you learn a lot through that interaction, whether it's in a critique group, it could be very informal it doesn't have to be some kind of highly structured of deeply committed writers that can just be people who are readers who like to read and like to read in your genre, and who want to read more, and they will give you from their time and from their heart, their insights into what you put on paper and I think that's an important aspect of the of the writing process is getting that feedback. I think that's a good point to it also sort of teaches you not to be too precious about your words, because you sort of have a tendency to sort of grip on to them, and you don't want to change anything because they mean so much to you. I think getting that feedback sort of gives you an opportunity to sort of step back and look at what you've written objectively as a writer of something that might be marketable. So you sort of looking at those words, not so precious easily changed if you sort of give yourself over to that. And I think you sort of get that through the feedback so you sort of let the writing go you put it as much as you can into it, and then let it go and put it out there, and then see what comes back and see what you have to sort of massage and change. Oh, just real quick I think study your craft. I mean and then find your heroes and read read read everything you get your hands on. When I first started writing I was like that I thought everything I wrote was, it was to precious and I thought, I don't need to study my craft because I was brainwashed and thinking that it came from an innate talent and no one. No, no one can learn writing and that type of thing so study your craft read. Yeah, practice. And I would say also study other arts, you know, they you are mentioning poetry you were mentioning sculpture. I think film I think television. I find that I get a lot for my writing from other medium media that are not the written word, but that I will get I will I will get vocabulary I will get images, I will get sensations from from a movie from a poem from a magazine article from a newspaper article, and it could be from almost anywhere and I think opening yourself to to reading specifically into all the areas and genres that you enjoy, but going beyond maybe it's sculpture maybe it's going to a museum and looking at the latest photography exhibit on display in your town. I think those are, to me anyway important sources of inspiration but actually literally of language. You remind me of one of my short stories I'm so to short stories to Hillary Queen, but one was inspired because I was looking at fashion design. I'm working in a nonfiction book about dress and appearance, and I found this black velvet evening coat from the 1930s and that became the inspiration for the short story that I did. But I always yeah. Music you have used titles. Kenny Rogers title was an inspiration for the first book, first short story I had an Eleanor Taylor blends and theology. So yeah I agree with that completely. Yeah. It all blends in your head. It does material. Yeah, it's all material. Anyone from the audiences have questions that we haven't covered that gives maybe give them five or some time to ask questions to us. CJ asked, how did you get involved with this anthology and did you did you write specifically for it. And did we answer that question. And was that a different kind of pressure from your other stories and books. Well, we ought to give credit complete credit to the one who's not here abby van diver, who put together this anthology abby had the idea, well, they had the idea for it and came to us in crime writers of color, and put out the call. And we asked if we have there were people who were interested. And there were plenty. And when she had a goodly number. She went to a variety of she put the proposal out to a variety of publishers to test the waters to see if there were people who might be interested in such a thing. And I think we and we formed a little Facebook group, and we committed communicated it was very interesting was a very communal sort of experience in contrast to the being in your own little narrow hovel with your narrow desk and writing story. The process even we went through the process of coming up with theme with coming up with a title for the book. We, we discussed the contract with the publisher once one had been identified. And all that collectively it came very naturally I mean it, I think back on it I think that's really weird, but it actually came very smoothly and very naturally, at least of my feeling, it was, then gave us the That's right abby gave us the deadlines and gave us the word link and said, turn it in by his date with this link. And we went on. It was a wonderful experiment to me I know at the second time I use that word. I hope nobody I hope the word police don't come for me but it was such a like an experiment because and the book is doing so well the communal way we did it that you were talking about. And the, it's doing great so that was just the way you know several nominated stories including Tracy's in there and it's getting wide recognition and I just, I just, I don't know. It's like, that's one of the things that I'm really proud of is how well the book is doing so and the way about right. And viewed in the New York Times in the, the column on crime fiction in the New York Times. We even worked on the cover together as I recall, we collectively thought about and came up with imagery for the addition to the title of the page we came up with the cover imagery for it so we were, we were on all fronts at all. And then at some point didn't abby send us. Once the publisher had put together the galleys. She sent them. She sent them back to us and said well obviously first read your own story. Your own story is the way it ought to be and that there are no missteps or typos or, but she said if you have the time please read any others because we want as many eyes as possible on the other stories catching the typos catching the dropped lines or the, the missed, the missed punctuation. So, again, a very collective effort to make that to polish the book. As it got to its later stages. And then that and I like I said I just that's something that's blown me away. That way this that it turned out to be successful. So we have the second question about research. And it is like, do you do extensive from Diane, do you do extensive research into the particular crime that you write about. And so how do you do this. And I think a writer will tell you don't, they hope that the FBI never looks at their searches. I would go back and clean mine up after. Clear the cash out. I'm not kidding. Seriously, I do. Yeah, how extensive, how extensive it's expensive for you. How far do you go on the radical. I make sure that I the crime like a for example of I'm in this book there's a murder weapon that I can't talk the next book that's coming out in 2022 there's a this kind of weird murder weapon. When I'm doing that, I make sure I have three or four corroborating sources. And if I get like three or four corroborating sources and I stop because you can go down that rabbit hole and never come back up to write. So that's kind of my role when I'm doing research like that. But I don't, I don't want to take what people call creative license so much that people that are familiar with those types of weapons or can say you just did that all, it's just totally wrong and not realistic I don't like. I just want to have some similar, you know, what is that for similar to having ever similar to it or whatever but I want to have a little bit of that right. I teach a course on historical research so I spend almost every day doing research. And so I'm the rabbit hole is a problem for me but then I have the other part that because I'm a criminologist I have all that exposure to real life and so I sort of, I'm inspired by those crimes and then I plug them into whatever I'm doing. But yeah, I feel really responsible for doing it right and making sure what I do is correct because I do research for a living. I remember one of the one of the books, the previous books that I wrote, I, I based the sort of core plot or the core heist that was going on financial heist on an actual newspaper article that I pulled out of the New York Times. Don't you know that was the one part that was challenged by a friend, a reader friend. She said, you know, it doesn't seem realistic that they would do this and that and I'm going, that's the one part that I didn't make up the whole rest of it I made up every page except for that crime. No, that was unrealistic. So I'm also noticing, yeah, I also, yeah, I'm also noticing there was a something on Twitter about that. The other day about somebody a reader challenging something about the way they'd be bachelors and master's degree in Louisiana and certain fields yeah. The author was wrong and author was right but yeah, but we're losing folks people are dropping off so as they drop off can we talk about our book recommendations do you have any book recommendations. I recently read it's getting a lot of publicity anyway but I'm going to give a little more secret identity by Alex Segura. The book was wonderful. I really enjoyed it I it's a comic book noir set in the 1970s in New York City as a young woman attempts to work her way into the crime unto the comic book writing field it's great. And I'm reading deal years book right now on murder take two. I love PI fiction and Brooke her PI is one of my all time favorites. I love the writing just the writing style is wonderful. I, whenever she releases a book. That's the first thing I have to be. So that's what I'm reading right now, along with a couple of other things but that's right at the top, and I'm halfway through. I know what's going on but she always fools me. So, but I would recommend the earliest book any any one of them just pick one. You won't regret it. Thank you. Actually I'm reading Tracy's book right now so at the beginning so I can, but it looks like it's going to be great Tracy. Your most recent. Thank you. I'm also reading Tracy's cast rain series and I'm loving every minute of her at the characterizations and everything, but I'm kind of like I'll read two or three books at a time. But I've also read recommendations bathhouse by PJ Vernon is really really good. Yes. Yes. And then another one was the nickel boys by Colson Whitehead. They run the Pulitzer a couple years back but I just ran it read it. And the interesting thing about that book to me is that if you have a good story to tell. Just tell the very plain language there's not a lot of lyricism or it's just, it's almost like journal. Don't kill me Tracy. It's almost like journalistic language but the story is just so good that that I really like that book. And then I the latest book I just read was under the color of law. It's a Trevor Finnegan police procedural procedural set in LA. And, you know, I'm cheating because I had to pull up all my books I just did. I'll let you guys know that I've been reading a lot of stuff. But that one was an interesting read about it to see how the police in LA were deal, how they, I mean how a black officer deals with police corruption and you know thereby may have become corrupted So, so that kind of stuff I don't want to give too much away but I was an interesting read as well. I was going to mention also these toxic things. Wonderful, wonderful twisty story. And if you really want to go down the private investigator route anything by Cheryl ahead. I think it has a wonderful series set in Detroit with a black female private eye who is who's great. Well I think it's we're almost to 715. So I think, and like I said we're losing folks it was. I think about 10 people have dropped off so there you go I see Lisa. Hi. Oh my gosh that was so good and like I said friend library friends out there we tried to keep up with those book list I started losing the links though as you went but I will add them to the doc, which is right here has all the books, not all the books because there's a rapid fire book top there and links to our presenters, you can get all these books at SFPL or your favorite library or favorite bookstore. Also many they talked about many folks that have been at SFPL. So we've been doing these panels for a while now and it's just such an amazing to see, like this community of crime writers like gracing library community so we know we don't pay you enough we want to put like lots of zeros after what your honorarium is, but thank you so much for speaking to our library community, I know they love it. And thank you for being part of our more than a month celebration. And you're all brilliant I said you're all brilliant and it's true. Thank you so much. Thank you. Let's do a wave. Thank you everyone. Bye bye.