 That was short and sweet. Hello, good evening. Welcome to, I think, the best and most important session in the Open Forum and in Davos this week. Thank you very much for taking up your time to come here. And it's fantastic to be having this session here in Davos and in Switzerland where there is a particular approach to disposing. We have an amazing panel here and we're going to really push them to give their perspectives on this issue, but we're going to get to the audience as soon as we possibly can. So get your questions ready. I understand we're also supposed to be using social media as well, so I think there's a hashtag, Wef20, is that right? So feel free, get your questions ready and let's make this a really lively debate and let's make it one where we understand the problem and we go away with some extra ideas which we can share. My name's Helena. I am the director general of an organization called Consumers International and we think about what a consumer writes. How do we make sure that as a consumer you have a fair, safe and sustainable product and experience and as part of that actually that you have the right information about sustainable consumption. So you know all of my members in 100 countries around the world said this year World Consumer Rights Day needs to be about the sustainable consumer. We need to understand this and it's a difficult topic. There is a lot of intention. There is an increasing level of intention to do something about the fact that we dispose, that we don't live in a circular economy and we'll talk about what that is, but how do we get to action, how do we make it normal, how do we make it easy, how do we look after our environment in the way we should. So we're going to explore some of that today. I just want to remind us that like I was looking back in the research for this, in 1955 in Life Magazine there was an article praising the throwaway society. It was a good thing. It was a sign of modernity, right? And how much have we learned since then? We've learned that that's not the right way to think it through, but we've also learned that it's complex to get to that point. And you saw some of the stats here. I've been shocked by things like the average amount of times that anyone wears a sweater is seven, only seven times. Actually, when you look at textiles, about 60% of the textiles we wear are plastic and you don't know that, so you don't know how we recycle. There are all sorts of extraordinary pieces that we need to work through, okay? So what I'd like to do first though is to start with two people on the panel who have actually attacked this question and they've addressed it head on. And I apologize. My panel is working with me brilliantly already because I forgot a key point. I started out with, we are in Switzerland and we have a Swiss activist and social entrepreneur, Dominic, who is the founder of Grass Rooted. I apologize, I was so keen to get to my panel, I stopped. And I think it's really appropriate and fantastic that he's going to give us just a bit of a perspective from the floor. So come up here if you can and share with us your view. So thank you. Thank you. Our society is in a mess. The climate crisis presents us with seemingly insolvable problems. Nevertheless, we are turning our world into a giant landfill. So in the morning, we explode our finite resources. We do everything to exploit even faster, even cheaper and even more. In the noon, we manufacture products out of these resources, products which are supposed to be as cheap as possible. We are not interested in fair working conditions as long as the pricing is right. And in the evening then, after a single use, we throw that products mostly away. Our lack of respect towards resources our planet provides us fits in today's society perfectly. We don't care about consequences our fellow citizens has to suffer about people from regions which are exposed to the catastrophic implications caused by climate change. We neglect what our behavior means for future generations. We are ignorant and we all know that on ourselves. We all know that this is not a good feeling. That's why we are looking for temporary solutions and why we are convincing ourselves that it's not that traumatic that it actually is. But stop. This can't go on like this. Our consumption is at the expense of nature and humankind. If we continue like this a few more years, what we will tell our children? When we will finally understand that it will never be okay to use something just once and then throw it away. So what we have to do is to reduce our consumption drastically and immediately. We have to use less to buy less and to throw away less. And only then we can speak about techniques like recycling and the usage of bioplastic. The facts are obvious, but why we are still not acting? We need a systematic change. We have to change fundamentally how we think, how we act and how we live on this planet. But this transformation needs courage, so I can tell you something. The young generation, the really young generation, which is on the street, will calling on us, will call on you to transform this society and to take this up as a chance to change how we live on this planet. Thanks. Awesome. Thank you. Fantastic. So Dominic speaking from a country where, of course, waste management is one of the most efficient in the world, unless somebody is going to challenge me on that. But there's a recycling rate of 54%, a target of 60% by 2020. And there's a sort of principle of the polluter pays. And I love that even there you are challenging us to get into a reduced, reused, recycled mentality and go beyond. So thank you very much for that. And I should do the proper honours and introduce the whole panel before I get to our activists, our actors first. To my left is Malati. She started by bioplastic. We'll hear about that in a second. She's changing the way we use and recycle plastic in Indonesia, which is one of the places where this is the biggest problem. So absolutely fantastic. Jennifer Morgan heads Greenpeace, leads, I don't think, needs introduction and one of the leaders on this topic. Bastien Girot is both a politician and a scientist and a businessman. I think we heard the description. So South Pole is your involvement in business, but also a leading scientist at ETH Zurich. And in the Green Party of Switzerland, of course. So he's going to be able to help us with some of the complexity here. Akira Sakana managed to get a whole region recycling. You can tell me more about this, but I was inspired by this. She gets people to sort into 27 different categories of product. She's going to tell me more about that. But it's a fantastic story and one of mobilisation. And Fika Sveshma is the CEO of the global company DSM. So you could not have a better range of perspectives. So we're going to ask for a three minute intervention from each of them. And then I'm going to come to you for questions, as I promised. All right. So, Milati and Akira, you've made a big change happen. What was it? And how did you do it? OK, Milati, can I start with you? Yeah, sure. Good evening, everyone. So my name is Milati. I'm 19 years old today, but my... No, no, not today. Oops, oops, oops. As in like, yeah, no, no, no. I thought we were going to have a happy birthday. No, that would have been sweet, but no. No, as in I'm now 19 years old. But my story started when I was 12, and my sister was 10. And at the time, we grew up in Bali. Has anybody ever been to Bali or been to Indonesia before? OK, so if you don't already know, Indonesia is one of the second largest source of marine plastic pollution. We have so much plastic in our everyday lives that when we go to the beach, walk through the rice fields, on the streets, go swimming or surfing, there's literally plastic everywhere. But at 10 and 12 years old, my sister and I learned that 40 other countries at the time had banned plastic bags. So we looked at each other one day, coming home from school, and we said, why can't Bali not? Come on, Bali, come on, Indonesia, we can also do it. And so without a business plan, really, or a strategy or any budget, we kind of just started a passion project that today is called Bye Bye Plastic Bags. It's one of the largest NGOs driven by youth in the country of Indonesia. And we have 50 teams all around the world. After six years of campaigning, which meant really working with all levels of society, so going to schools, creating education and awareness campaigns, going to government meetings, understanding the regulations that were needed in place, what was the challenges, what were the barriers. Finally, after six years of campaigning, as of June last year, Bali officially implemented the ban on single-use plastic bags, straws, and styrofoam. So that was very good. And so that's what's been keeping me and my sister and our team in Bali really busy over the last six years. And now we're really passionate about helping empower more young people to get the realistic, activist tools. What are the skills that you need? What are some of the lessons that we've learned over the last six years that we wish we would have known when we first started? We're going to put that into a peer-to-peer learning program and have that shared across different platforms through our new project called Youth Topia. So that's something that I'm fully working on right now, graduated high school a year early to focus full time and become a full-time change-maker. So I'm really excited to be here tonight and have this discussion with all of these amazing people. Awesome. I think we always talk about how you and your sister work together as well, because that's a big one too. Awesome. Well done. Thank you. Akira, tell us about your story. Sure. So thank you very much. And hello, everyone. I'm Akira Sakano. I'm from Japan. And I'm part of the Global Shapes Community of the World Forum. But so here I'm presenting a community back in, especially in the rural area, or rural regions in Japan, that actually I mean to achieve the zero waste this year. Well, as Helena just mentioned, we are actually famous for the so many categories of waste segregation, which is 45, actually more than 27. Wow. I don't go deep dive into this. But the whole point is that we engage all the residents, of course the municipal government, local businesses, all the stakeholders in the community on board to actually implement the local system that how we could actually be the zero waste society or a circular society in the region. So the point is, I'm not saying that, well, you need to separate waste into different categories. And that's, of course, you could imagine not that easy or sometimes stressful. But the whole point is by segregating waste into such a details, you could identify what you have in your community. Of course, as a waste, but also as a resources. And then we can also identify where that's all coming from. So mapping out where the source, where it's coming in from, maybe it's a supermarket, of course, where are the people, the locations where they are buying stuff. And how we could potentially alternate that source of waste coming from. So we mapped out all the stakeholders. And then, for example, we identify, instead of working with the supermarket maybe directly, which is quite challenging in terms of packaging, they already get the supply of already packaged stuff. And it's a risk for them to have bulk, which is quite risky in terms of humid conditions we have in Japan to have all the stock open. So we started, for example, working with the restaurants to share their list of what they use for cooking. And then share that with the community. And then now they are actually working together that the residents can approach restaurants and say, well, I want to get just 100 grams of sugar from you. Then that's all package free, because you can directly bring your own containers to the restaurant. And then for them as a restaurant, you can present that as a very good communication opportunity to say, hey, this is the ingredients we use. And then that's how good it is. So that's also an opportunity for both women's situation as a community to build different supply chain in a way. At the same time as a business, you could also benefit from additional, maybe the income, at the same time, the presentation. Such kind of mapping out is how we approach the community. And then that's what we actually need in the society as a whole as well. Brilliant. And you said the word circular. I think that's the first time. And so what do you mean by circular? Very good question. We have so many discussion around this. Yeah, but the circular, for me, it means that it doesn't go into the waste in the very end. So potentially recycling is one option to solve. Yet the recycling, of course, needs a lot of energy. And then in the end, it down cycles. I mean, the lower the quality of the materials. So the ideal situation is, of course, that we have all the resources once extracted from the earth, staying in the society, circulating in various ways. Of course, prolonging the life is one. But also how do we map out that as a common resources in the society as well? Of course, we're going to get into the circular economy topic, which, of course, is the very important way how we can map it out. And then, well, recently, we had lots of reporting this week that we could highlight later on as well. Perfect. So Jennifer, I'm going to come to you now. So we've heard the example of Switzerland, Indonesia, Bali. How do we turn the world circular? I know that's a bit of a big question. So perhaps you want to lead us into that. Well, I think the first thing is to recognize that our current disposable fossil fuel-driven economic system is completely broken. I just think we have to, Dominic mentioned it, and I just think that we have to move to a new economic model. So we'll come to what that can look like that actually prioritizes the public and the collective goods, as well as our whole life of our planet, rather than putting these band-aids on it. And so that comes along, yes, OK, we need to consume less and better. And I think that that's quite important. But if you think about what needs to happen and move into that kind of a world, well, it means that the companies that produce a lot of plastic. We're in Switzerland, Leslie, right? That they can't just recycle. This has been very grateful for anyone here who's participated in the Nestle campaign. Because I think there's this myth, and one might even say a lie, that we can recycle our way out of this. And that's just not the case. We actually need to reduce. And companies need to reduce. And then we need to build the systems that you were talking about, where you can reuse and refill and create the delivery systems that occur. And in order for that to happen, governments actually need to engage. We need to have regulations on this. We need to move away. We need to have peak plastic. I'm talking about plastic. But I could also talk about these, right? How many times every year there's a new model? Well, what about a system where actually you're not able to do that? You slow it down. You have more sustainable phones. So you can look at different products in there, whether it be plastic or electronics and the waste that comes from that. But I think the key thing is if you're engaging and working on our lifestyles, and we all need to consume less and better meat and dairy, we all need to do that. But we actually need that systems change. And in order for that to happen, we need people to engage in that. And to feel that it's OK to question our economic system, that it's OK to question never-ending growth because our planet can't handle it. But we also need to have a quality of life for people. So bringing that together, I think, is possible. But we've got to step it up because none of these companies that are out there have anywhere close to the commitments that are needed. And there aren't very many governmental examples either. I'm more inspired what I meet around the world in different places. Do you think there are any companies that are doing a great job, maybe we could ask? And why do you think it's so difficult to make a change? Great is a big word. Yeah, OK. I think the companies that are taking it most seriously right now, I mean, Unilever has a reduction target of 50% it is, and they're trying out different ways of delivery and that type of thing. But the pilots are pretty small. Nestle, just last week, thanks to a public campaign, I can tell you they had no intent to set a reduction target, has now committed to reduce 30%. It's not enough at all if you think about them. I think why is it so hard? I think partially because virgin plastic is so cheap. And so that's part of it. And so the economics in their companies don't work out. That also links back to how we're pricing our resources in our society. I think they would blame it on the consumer, right? And I think, yes, sure, there are lazy consumers out there, but I find that a really cheap throwaway. I think they need to take responsibility. The fun thing is, in the work we've done, the nice thing is everybody feels responsible, actually. Consumers do feel responsible. I think everyone here probably would say, are you feel responsible for what to know what to do? We were looking at the labeling of plastics for plastics and about what do you do to recycle it? And the number of labels is just extraordinary. And the difficulty of finding that recycling system. I know we need to talk about reduce and reuse as well, but just that sticks in the mind. Fika, I would love to come to you now and talk about how do you see us reaching a circular future? And how do you plan in your own organization to get that? Okay, appreciate it. Appreciate that you're all here and spend some time with us and want to listen. And as you listen to all the, my colleagues on the panel, and most likely you all agree, we cannot continue to produce as much waste as we do. But what is waste? Waste is also a matter of definition. The planet itself, before we entered the planet, didn't know about waste. We now create so much waste that we're even afraid that the mobile phones that Jennifer just showed, that there are enough metals anymore to make the next generation of mobile phones. So we get scarce materials in the world. Really? No, of course not. There's nobody at night who's stealing our molecules or atoms from planet Earth. There's no people from Mars who are coming at night and stealing all our materials. Everything remains on planet Earth. That's the good news. The bad news is that since mankind entered this planet, we invented a model that nature would never think about themself. We take things out of the ground, we process it, we consume it, and then what is left, we throw away and we call that waste. Planet Earth never thought about that model, the linear model. They will make it circular. We do that every time. I mean, metals are well-organized in mines. Many of those metals are in Africa, well-organized in mines. What do we do? We take them out, we put them in the mobile phone, we use it, we throw the mobile phone away together with plastics and metals and food waste and other stuff. Then we have a whole bunch of stuff and then because we are so kind in the West, we bring it back to Africa where we took it from and we call that waste and we dumped the waste over there. But if we design those supply chains a little bit smarter, like nature have done it itself, otherwise planet Earth could not exist for five billion years, then we can reuse our materials endlessly. Now one small example, Niaga. It's one of the products of our company. If you pronounce it in the reverse way, you'll read again. Carpets. Many of you maybe have carpet at home. Especially in the USA, carpets are the biggest landfill operation what the US calls which exist. They call it landfill, but the land does not need to be filled. But they put the carpets under the ground because they don't know what to do with it. I was thinking 400, 500 years from now, people start digging in the ground in the US and think, where are the pyramids or what will we find in the ground? Carpets. Good. Thank you very much. That was our generation. Now, why do we put the carpets in the ground? The carpets consist of the five different materials. And after using it, you cannot reuse it. It's too expensive to split it. But if you now simply make all those different layers of the same materials, you can endlessly reuse it. You have nothing to put in the ground and endlessly reuse those molecules. It's a small example, but dozens of those examples of continuously reusing our products and not divvying it waste anymore. The problem is most of the supply chains which we defined as mankind are so-called linear, digging out, producing, consuming, showing it away. And we need to redesign all those supply chains with many companies in those supply chains. And that is what we need to speed up because it's pretty complicated. Many companies involved. But it is doable. And I look always at Mother Earth is looking to us as mankind and said, I exist already for five billion years. What the heck do you invented as mankind? I never did that. Please copy me. And I think we need to do that. Very good. So it's design and it's innovation with purpose. Could you just, what's the most exciting new technology or design approach that you're seeing in a particular supply chain that you think might move this along? Now, I gave an example of carpets. By the way, I can also say our sales in this product is minimal. Why? Because the carpet industry does not easily want to change. The chemical industry supplying the carpet industry does not want to change. The oil industry supplying the chemical industry, supplying the carpet industry does not want to change. The people behind it have a whole business model on using that landfill. So we need to supply the oil companies, the chemical companies, the carpet companies, and the people make money about putting it in the ground. And here, what you fight, and Jennifer knows it well from Greenpeace, what you need to do, you fight to existing supply chains, which we need to redesign. But our people and companies today who have interest to keep it as it is, because they make money in the two days model. But at the end of the day, this will not continue because then we do get scarce materials. We will not have mobile phones anymore. We will die out of the plastic bags we find everywhere. So it won't work. If you look to what Melati is doing on the plastic bags I'm involved with the ocean cleanup, since the Second World War, we invented plastic. And plastic is, when it comes in the ocean, it's degrading slowly in 50 years to micro-plastic. The micro-plastic will be consumed by all our fish and it will be in our total food supply chain. We have another 30, maybe, no, not another 30, we have another, we have 30, 40 years done. We have another 10, 20 years maybe to clean up the whole ocean. If we don't do that, all those plastics will be in our food supply chain. So we need to change it because otherwise, I think it's threatening mankind. And sorry, Dana, but I cannot understand. I mean, mankind walks around here 10,000 to 50,000 years. The planet already solves, if you look to all the different systems of animals and nature and plants, they're all reusing everything continuously. Everything in nature is being reused because otherwise the planet could not exist for five billion years. Now, in the last 10,000 years, we changed dramatically the situation and we need in the coming years to change it again dramatically, my view. Thank you. So, Bastion, we come to you and I think I'd love you to add into this the political element. So what can politicians do to create the shift that we've just seen that needs to happen across supply chains? And then maybe add in, is there a moment, for example, COP26 this year, that we could sort of, how do you see, what can we do towards that? What can everybody here do to create a shift? Thank you for this question. First, hi, everyone. It's great to see you. English. Regarding your question, I think important, when we talk about the circular economy, it's important to see that actually it's not about one circle. There are at least two circles, like there is the biodegradable circle. So if you have waste that is biodegradable, it can go into nature and will become part of nature. So that's the natural part. But what's more of a problem is the non-biodegradable, not plastics. And I think what's important to understand is that we have no claims for 90% recycling. Even if you have 90% recycling and the remaining 10% ends up in nature, we have a problem. You described the Swiss system of having very high recycling. And it's true we have high recycling rates. We have a leakage. What goes to nature is just 1% of our plastic. But still, they collected plastic along the rivers and the lakes and they found on each square meter, also in Switzerland they found a piece of plastic. Of course in developing countries it's even worse, but it's only to show if you don't have 100% recycling or at least revalorization, so waste to energy, if this is not at 100%, it ends up in nature and animals will eat it and will starve and will then die and then we have a problem. So I think here we need a drastic change because the amount of mass we are transporting around is increasing so dramatically. So even if we recycle 80, 90% we are at the moment at like 10%, we will have a huge leakage rate. And I think what needs to happen politically is the biggest leakage actually is CO2, the waste we end up in the atmosphere. So we have now the Paris Agreement. And there we go to net zero. I think we need a Paris Agreement for plastic and all the other waste. So we need this net zero waste as a target and I think we don't have, can wait until 2050, it must be earlier at least for plastic. And then we need to increase pressure on companies. I think it's a responsibility of corporates to have these claims, but then also from the political side, I think in the end it's also about infrastructure. So there is also we have to work together with business, but it must be clear that the goal must be net zero, like zero leakage into nature. And I think this is what we have to support. We tried this in Switzerland. We had an initiative. We failed with the old parliament, which was not very green. Now we had some changes. We had big changes thanks to Greta and the young on the street. So the Green Party made the highest increase historically in Switzerland is just quite small because we were quite a stable landscape, party landscape, but still now the parliament is much more green and we will have a second attempt to reinforce. Reinforce, our law at the moment doesn't have the circularity included and we now want to include the circularity as a goal that must be achieved. I think the voting system helps as well. You sort of vote in response to that. Exactly. I think it's a very sensible issue. It's clear that the population wants to have a solution here. And it's also clear that many people see plastic as an area where policy has failed until now. And I think policy has failed, but it's also I think we have to... That's why I'm also in business, science and politics because I think the three have to come together to solve this issue. Very good. Okay, excellent. So we started out with a disposable society where we were sticking band-aids on and trying to work to a description of a circular approach with the goal of addressing the climate crisis. I think we heard some of the ways forward. I think we can go back and actually get a bit crunchier about what those could be and what we do now, et cetera, in the next round. But I did promise to come to the audience and see if there are any questions. Right, I'm gonna have some rules for questions. You put your hand up, you state your name, and you ask your question and be brief because we want as many questions as possible. I can always point to people as well in the audience if I get mean, but you never know. Are there any questions from the audience at this stage? There's one at the back, any others? I'm gonna do them in threes. Come on, there's a gentleman here. Yes, I can see a hand up there. My eyes are failing, really. Come on, there's got to be a third or third one. There's a lady over there. One, two, and there's two. There are two there. We've got two, there's one next as well. All right, gentlemen at the back in black. Could you state your name? Yes, my name is Alec Gania. I'm born in the development countries, Switzerland. And till now, we didn't hear much about the causes of the problems. We talked a lot about the symptoms, what we can't treat, and so on. It's like in the school medicine system. It's a very good business to make recycling and so on. So my question goes, for example, to Bastien. He had 2009 an initiative together with Yvonne Gilly, and they were talking about population growth in Switzerland. And then there was an incredible strong wind against them, and they lost the courage to discuss this issue. Then about the Paris Agreement. How is it possible that the war industry is not part of the Paris Agreement? Then the whole ship industry is not part. The flying industry is not part of the agreement. The meat industry is not part. How is it possible that we accept such a failure of decision-making procedure, which is just going in the wrong direction? And Jenny did it correctly. I think she was the only one who said, we cannot grow infinitely. In Switzerland, the SD, we have all political parties, including the Greens, they say we need GDP growth. Why are we not learning something from Bhutan who want to have gross national happiness? Awesome, okay. So causes, population growth, wrong definition of growth and wrong people involved in the agreements. Let's have two questions down here. Keep it brief, state your name. Yes, sir. Herrmann of the Schweiz. My name is Herrmann. I'm from Switzerland. Switzerland is a highly industrialized country with a very high standard of education. The facts are clear. We're the way we're using the environment. I cannot understand how so much waste is simply thrown away. And this is happening at all levels of society. I simply can't understand it. Is there an answer to how this can be fixed? Okay, so I think that was another question about the causes of this and an answer to how we fix the level of disposal. And lady next to you, yes, please. Yeah, my name is Heike Hensel. I'm a member of parliament from Germany and I fully agree to Jennifer Morgan. She addressed the issue that we need much more regulation. I think the time of just voluntarily commitments is gone. We have to talk about regulations and we also have to address the multinationals. If you look, for example, they get the red carpet here in the web. If you look to Amazon, if you have the information that so many return products are still new, brand new, are destroyed. This is an unbelievable practice. We have to change this and we need laws for it. For example, France has the law that it's forbidden now to throw food away. You have to use it. So I think we need laws on this. And we have to address here, these multinational corporations, they are all here and they are behaving in a way which is unacceptable. And we should confront them much more. And it's also about my second question. It's about the question of the price of labor. As long as it's that cheap to make all these products, the clothes, everything, nothing will change. We need, really, we have to give more respect to labor. We had this panel today about slavery, labor, slavery and so on. And this we have to change and also we have to speak about the role of the multinationals because they are profiting from it. They can only produce cheap products because labor is so cheap. This is a circle. So my question would be, what can we do to get much more regulations, real laws on all this we are discussing today? And my question to Melati, are you also fighting against this export of waste, plastic waste from Europe? I think it's a very big problem in Indonesia that you get a lot of legal and illegal plastic waste from Europe. Thank you. Awesome, all right. Let's take a couple of those and then we'll come back to the audience, okay? So the first one I think is, let's get to the root problem which is our definition of growth. And of course you've got in Bhutan, you've got happiness. New Zealand has taken a different approach. How do we redefine growth and really get that embedded? I think I might want to come to Jennifer and Bastia first on that one. Sure. And actually if I may, I just need to say, hello, I can't speak Swiss German, but... I can't speak Swiss German, but I was an exchange student in Nida Elensbach and I can just say that it was a great time. Nida in Elf English. I'm switching back to English now because I've forgotten all my Swiss German. Using GDP. Because it's very, very clear that this definition, you know, which, you know, it's also not a mistake and it gets to the root causes of the problem as well, that this fully, you know, GDP only short-term growth shareholder value has dominated since the 70s, which is when, you know, the Koch brothers and the neoliberals in the US decided that they needed to take on what was happening after this is an American looking at our history on this and the role of making that the sole measure of success. And so I think now there is a recognition at least, well, there's not a recognition, there's evidence everywhere how broken that is. So I think we actually, and I would have hoped that the forum would have taken this up much more fundamentally in this shareholder capitalism debate of having other indicators as part of this, having health that gets to the value of work as well, having ecosystem and the life, you know, the planetary boundaries being measured in that as well, having, you know, a basic standard of well-being. I know here in Switzerland you've had a debate about basically a minimum wage for everyone. So I think we need to, there's lots of literature out there, just Steaklets, others have published on this, but there has been no leadership, I think in, maybe it's, well, it's obvious because that's not what they want. But I think if the WEF was really gonna take on the issues of inequality, of climate destruction, then they would put this at the center of the forum next year. Awesome, thank you, Basti. Yeah, I think it's an important point and I fully agree that GDPs should not be the goal for maximization. Actually I wrote a book on this, that we should maximize happiness and well-being instead of GDP. And I think especially policy should focus on well-being, especially also in countries like Switzerland where consumption is often like a treadmill. So you want to have the bigger car than your neighbor and you want to have the same nice shoes like the others. So it's simply about comparison and it doesn't really in a net effect contribute to the happiness of the society. So I think really, therefore it's important to focus on well-being but I think we have to be realistic. The transformation required to reduce emissions to zero is so massive that we will need huge investment. And this huge investment will not be possible in a combined with the growth. So I think at least for the next like 10, 20 years we will need to see a huge growth in clean economy which is necessary. So I think this is, of course we need the de-growth of the linear economy but the circular economy must grow and also must provide work for everyone. So I think this is important to keep in mind. And perhaps on this growth issue was also important to see, yes GDP and also population they are parameters we have to keep in mind but in the end it's about going to zero. So we will never go to zero with population. We don't want to go to zero with GDP or wealth and we can only go to zero by decoupling where we need massively the use of new solutions. Not just technologically, I also think it's new also social solutions but we need solutions that must be the focus else we will not reach these targets. Excellent, okay. How about that we had a question about can't we just put pressure on multinationals? There needs to be more push for organizations to be part of this. There are some that aren't. Fika, would you help us with that one? Yeah, put more pressure on multinationals. I agree, we are one of those multinationals. And I agree. And it goes back to how did the economy ever started? By making money, nobody invented that. One was better in catching buffaloes and the other was better in growing crops. And they said if you do this, I do this and we exchange goods at the end of the day. And then we got number three, number four entering the game and then we said, oh, we need something to exchange. We invented gold, we all agreed gold was worse a lot. It's convention and then the gold was too complicated. We invented money and money was too complicated and then we invent computers because only 10% of the money would exist also really exist. So we all believe that and we have our own economic system but it was only invented to specialize in what we are good and to live happily here together in a planet which remains. And I think I totally agree in the last decades we derailed and we thought that making money became the goal. Now making money was only the facilitator. So the way we measure the success of our company is what we contribute to the planet, what we contribute to society. And of course we need also we are not a charity foundation. So we need to take care that our expenses and our incomes are not out of balance otherwise we will stop our own operations and need to fire all our people. But we have three prime goals. Now, I discussed this a lot with our shareholders who say, well, doing well for the society, doing well for the planet, that is a side track that cannot be your main track. Your main track is making money. And I'm now 13 years CEO and when I started, I said, I disagree. You can fire me but I disagree. We will work on all those three dimensions in parallel. Now, till now they did not fire me, so they accepted it so far and that is my philosophy. On the pressure, what we advocate here in Davos, two governments, you are from government, put a strong price on CO2 emissions. Carbon emissions should be priced. And I was leading also a study on behalf of the World Bank, what price on CO2 will really trigger companies financially to reduce their emissions, $30 per ton. I make it very practical and I stimulate all governments in the world, let companies pay at least $30 per ton for their CO2 emissions. And I bet that the whole transition will go faster and I don't see any reason for governments not to do it. Now, I see a reason. They all say, ah, we lose competitiveness and then other countries will grow, et cetera. We study that also for governments and we find out that if it is not higher than 25, there is no evidence that you will lose jobs, lose competitiveness. So I say to governments, give a price between $1325 for your CO2 emissions and the world will change. And I don't know what you want to say about it but I stimulate all governments to do that, charge the multinationals. I want to be charged. We already prepared by the way because I charge internally everybody on 50. I say to our own sides, you will get the price 50 and people say internally India said, oh really? I said, you bet because I trust on the bastions of this world. Okay, I feel like there are a couple of conversations going. I want Milati to have a chance to answer the question that was posed to her. We might have one or two reactions to what to the conversation there and then we'll come back to questions. So get them ready. Milati, you had another really good question which was about the global situation and exports of plastics coming to you regardless of everything that you're doing locally. I think this has definitely been an issue that's been raised over the last eight months very intensely in Indonesia because we've been experiencing all of the incoming exports of trash and containers from other countries mainly in Europe and the US. And recently, last year in July, our government representatives on a national scale in July just alone, we sent back nine containers back and we said, deal with your own waste. So I think our government has made a very strong statement by doing that. Locally though, we're challenged with our own waste still and this is something that we don't talk often about or enough about. I started at 12 with the vision of just plastic bags and I entered the spider web of waste management, waste collection, waste separation, all of this. In Bali for example, just to kind of paint a picture, our main dump site or landfill got shut down because it was over capacity and it was on fire, it was burning. People living around literally had to move because it was that bad. But all of a sudden, you see, so just leaving alone all the exported waste that's coming into our own country, our own waste, all of a sudden, all the local village heads and all the region heads had to suddenly deal with their own waste. So right now what we're seeing in Bali are temporary dumps being set up. And this is like the bigger discussion. I mean, I don't know what you have to say, but this is again, looking at the bigger throw away disposable mindset where we don't necessarily taking consideration as consumers as well, like looking more as how when we pick something off the supermarket shelves, we use it, we throw it away, where does it go? And this question is really impacting us right now in Bali, in a face to face. I mean, our trash is piling up in our own homes because nobody wants to pick it up and nobody can bring it anywhere. So that's just something that I thought was really interesting and we're campaigning a lot right now with our team locally on the grounds and working how we can fix that problem. Okay, I want to use all of the expertise on the panel. So if there's a 30 second intervention that anybody on the panel wants to make to anything that was said there, please go ahead. I think Jennifer, yes? I wanted to just come back in on the multinationals if I may, because I think being here in Switzerland, you know, you ask about the root causes of the problem where you gotta, where do you go? You follow the money, you go to the banks, right? And the banks that are funding fossil fuel. And if you want to know how to engage, I think it's important to be out there campaigning against the major banks for your own way of what you can do with your own money but also to get regulation in the financial sector and join the nonviolent direct actions that are happening here in Switzerland by the youth. That, and I think it's a make sure that what you're doing is linked in with the systemic change, right? So, because I think otherwise you let them off, they can easily sit, not be put part of that shifting of the system. Perhaps only shortly on the carbon tax, of course I agree and we work in this direction so we are part of the EU ETS, we want to have a floor price in Switzerland for heating fuel at 120 francs per ton, so even higher. But for the problem we're discussing here, we also have to be clear that we don't resolve it with the Swiss carbon tax and that's, I come back to my original suggestion that we need something like a Paris Agreement for the plastic issue because you have to make companies here in the South, in Europe responsible for what they are doing all over the world because in Switzerland they do quite well with recycling but I think it's important, like for climate, we also have a system in place that includes scope three which includes like the supply chain, what's happening in other countries and we need the same for plastic and make them, make incentives that they send, set themselves targets towards like net zero leakage of plastic into nature. Although, Basien, I would like to say my philosophy, the Western and the richer countries in the world cannot hide my philosophy behind that we need to agree something about the whole world because people in Africa, people in India come with a different development perspective and I don't have any problem that we tax and that we make our life more heavy on this one in the Western part of the world and be a little bit generous for the time being, not forever, for Africa, for India, for Indonesia, et cetera, because they don't have the development state that we have and coming back to the population growth where I always want to be, I totally agree that the growth of population of course put a burden on the planet but I want to be very careful to make any statements about it because the growth of the population is coming from India, coming from Africa, coming from very poor families in the world who have only one way of survival and that is having many kids. It's not helping the planet but it's helping their private situation and I don't want to comment on that. I want to make them fast, richer and then automatically the birth rate will go down and I think we have the obligation to help Africa, to help Indonesia, to help Bangladesh, to help India, to have faster, a bigger prosperity and what is hampering their prosperity coming back on common pricing, et cetera, is that many of those countries that was just in Ethiopia, 110 million people, 80% of the Ethiopian people are farmers and for billions Ethiopia import foods and every year more, 80% is farmer and still they cannot make their food because climate change is reducing their yield of the farms every single day and I cannot accuse Ethiopia that they cause the climate change in the world that they are this victim now so I would stimulate us if you agree with me to take the lead, I think you do. I agree, yeah let's take the lead but let's make them accountable also for their action in these countries so also make sure that they help to clean up and build up the waste infrastructure in these countries I think this is important, yeah. I agree. We'll come back to that, I'm just gonna pause here. Akira? Yeah, just a little bit on top of what Melati just mentioned so aside from these big topics so within the community which is also very important to build the visibility if you're trying to tackle waste or all these consumption issues of course where it's coming from but where it's also going so for example like if you hear like 45 categories, it's crazy but we also communicate where it goes after you segregate what it will be, how much it costs or how much it actually earned to the community and then that's also to build on the happiness or how you feel to be involved within the community as well so these actions need to be both of course environmental impact well, positive, we need to make it also like socially that's to be for the engagement of the people, how inclusive it is so for example the residents in our community they enjoy not to separate the waste but coming to the waste collection center meet other people to engage in their information that's how we could actually change a system or bit of the infrastructure building on the happiness of the people so that's how it should be functioning I expect that interesting sort of definition of what growth looks like actually growth can be in a very positive way you could really see that sort of if we are to put in place an entire recycling and waste management system that is a positive and meaningful form of innovation I'm gonna sort of pause there and come back to questions because I saw hands up again if you have a question oh, awesome, all right I would like somebody who is under the age of 18 and I could see a few there was a lady with, yes with a blue t-shirt and blonde hair there's another lady with blue, yes in front of you yes, as well and there is a lady with a white sweater I'm, yeah, too late in the day so we've got three here already so the furthest in the back first, yes I think you're, no just you were there you're holding the mic, yes you, go my name's Sophie and I'm a student studying here in Switzerland and going back to the tax on carbon emissions if companies were taxed on it how would the amount be measured and where would that money go? Great, okay, excellent very good, just in front of you there to your left yes, there we go Hi, I'm Antonia and my question is how can we as developed countries help less developed countries because I mean, I think those people there don't really worry about the plastic but more about how they get their next meal so how do we help them or how do I as a normal citizen help them to raise awareness and help them with their plastic? All right, excellent, thank you and here Hi, I'm Soledad and what can consumers do to ensure companies they buy from take responsibility for the waste they produce and dispose of it responsibly and do you mean the consumers have to take responsibility or the businesses or both? Both, cool, all right another round of very good questions, all right so if we did tax where does the, where would the money go? All right, Biker first Yeah, I have been leading this whole carbon tax situation since 2015 when we made the Paris Treaty there's nothing about carbon tax in the Paris Treaty it was too sensitive, governments in the world could not agree on it so there was nothing written about it after Paris we agreed to pick it up there are two systems in the world one is a taxation system then the money goes to the government the government is richer government can spend it for the most vulnerable groups in its society or spend it on innovation the risk is governments will spend it for all kinds of other things okay, there's another system which Bastien was referring to that's the European system the bad guys doing worse the bad guys pay to the good guys so the more you reduce your emissions and the more the bad guys and the less you reduce your emissions the bad guys pay to the good guys I personally, I don't mind so much which system we have, there are two systems in the world Europe, just like the cap and trade so-called system China likes that the North America does not like any system there's no system in the United States but in Canada, in Mexico, in Colombia and Peru there are systems which are more taxation systems I don't mind so much what we take but we need to do something fast and heavy and interesting is that China is already starting and interesting is that the US is not moving at all do we have any Americans in the audience? oops, sorry okay, you have to cover it alright, Bastien first and then to dinner I can tell you how the CO2 tax in Switzerland works, no originally the idea was to give everything back to the population have a CO2 tax on everything and give it back to the population interestingly, for building it worked but then we realized that the acceptance for the tax is higher if we use a third of it to support retrofitting so more efficient homes so that's now how it works third is going to retrofit buildings and supporting this and then for the cars, the acceptance was not very high so here we use 100% for climate projects it's like at the moment 5% now it's planned to increase at 5 cents it's planned to increase at 10 cents per liter and there it's used 100% for climate projects now, we plan on two further types of taxes which are interesting I think also for Davos, for VEV because many of you will have to pay it when you come to Davos the next time and this is actually a flight tax so we plan and we have now an agreement in the small chamber and in the committee of the large chamber quite a broad agreement that we have a flight ticket tax for 30 to 120 francs depending on the class you're traveling in and this would then be used for 50% to reduce the review to the population and 50% for climate projects and then, and that's now very important also for World Economic Forum we just decided that we will also have a private jet tax which goes until 5,000 for a private jet to contribute to climate and again, half of it is used for the population and half of it for... so it has also a social element now and half of it for climate projects and that's the plan I'm only afraid that the private jet owners can pay the tax but okay one other remark on tax some of you made the remark it is very strange that we invented over the last 100 years when we invented our tax system we tax labor we don't want people to work we make that very expensive we tax labor and we don't tax so much our use of scarce raw materials we say you can consume throw away your food that is not a problem that's a little bit of a weird model we can shift taxations from labor to consumption and there is a big group called X-Tax you can find it on the website who is trying to advocate for real change so that you can reuse and repair products and that's throw it away Jennifer can you answer that and also go to the developed how do developed countries support sure so I I've been on a journey on the CO2 tax and on emissions trading right because I actually think it is appropriate if done well so the details really matter so it's good that you've asked so where the money goes and who collects it and how it's you know how that's done whether there's an auction that then goes into a fund that goes into climate action right that's one thing but the European Union handed out a whole bunch of permits and you know that can go so well and so and then there's a sense of well I think for some sectors just to get a bit geeky for a minute for cars we just need to ban the internal combustion engine right and we need to get them out of our cities and we need to drive in get mobility systems to be working so a price on carbon isn't going to do that fast enough and I think the complexity you asked about how to measure it what a great question you know you can put in systems to to account for it but you know I've worked in China for a long time and I wish that the Europeans would just let them regulate that's what they know that's the system that they've got they can tax they can regulate so just let them get on with that rather than and increase the price of the bad and then put the money into the good things and I agree we need to look at our whole tax system so it's complicated but it's really important that you're asking the question and engaging in it because if you don't do it if it isn't done you know where the money needs the prices need to land and where the money needs to go it actually you know we lost a bunch of time on that I think how to help what a great question as well I mean and I'd be curious what you think too I think there's as an individual I think it's there's a number of different things it's hard I mean there's some things that are about creating partnerships with others in different countries and then you know creating that kind of a a partnership and a collaboration so it's really a collaboration back and forth because I think oftentimes people in the north think we have all the answers when actually you'll find that people in the south and least developed countries actually because they're living often closer to nature because they have to figure things out they have a lot of answers that we can learn from but I think finding organizations that can link you up with those who are living there that would be one suggestion and I was learning today so India puts the US to shame in terms of recycling in many instances it's you know Milati would you start answering and then go into the the other question around what can consumers do where I also have a view but I'd love to hear you first well actually just to build on top of that the perspective which was actually pretty interesting because recently as well we had a bit of a backfire where Indonesia asked the question not the government, not the not the people but more like a celebrity figures are saying why should Indonesia take lead on banning plastic or you know reducing consumption of plastic if the West hasn't done it you know where the strong example if Singapore doesn't do it why do we have to do it and this is really dangerous because this is a narrative where we start looking up or you know looking to places that don't necessarily move faster than us and I think as individuals one of the things then for for us is like campaign, knowing educating yourself where your own waist goes really understanding that and then sharing that with the people around you because then I think that that triggers a conversation here what you can do to better create regulation change, policy change with the consumption of plastic which then serves as a better example for a country like Indonesia yeah and consumers anything else that consumers can do to to themselves and then also hold businesses to account as a consumer again I think educating yourself is the most important thing understanding what what the company's values are what their goals are is it strong enough is it not and then connecting that to your country's regular regulations and goals and then calling them out for it you know I think that that's something that brings real truth to power when you can show different examples across different sorts of industries and connect it to innovations of local entrepreneurs grassroots organizations and say why aren't you doing more why why can't you do better what are the challenges and sometimes asking those questions really gives you a different perspective but also to build on how you can really make a shift if that makes any sense tons of sense I think there's something about obviously what you do with your wallet makes a big difference so thinking about that and being a conscious consumer because that's what you know a lot of the the change will be but customers don't want it they attend they say they're going to do something but they're not actually buying it so then to be able to go back to your shareholders or investors and say oh this is worth making a difference for it's a harder piece so when you can think about it I think also there are things like consumers can get involved in shaping standards I don't know whether you know that but there's a sort of a real effort that we can do to get involved in shaping the next set of standards for products and for services so that we take this into account there's a whole bunch of different things that we could be thinking about Jennifer and then Akira just one story I was in Taiwan sitting next to one of our of a Greenpeace volunteer and I don't she was younger than I am let's just say that and she said to me you know I've got I have we've created a community of 19,000 people youth in Taiwan and we swap tips about how to lead we've all made a plastic free commitment and so they all figure out how they can go to the night markets and what they can bring with them and how they do that and so I think that's another thing consumers can do is build your community use social media tools share that type of thing that that then also creates demand but also helps build that mindset shift because if you go and bring your own thing then and whatever other tips there are but I think that's kind of bringing together different people and Akira your view on what what kind of consumer do right so I I would not call consumers but the voters because we vote based on our consumption and what we choose at the same time like be clever about creating communities definitely in the way that well you could culturally or what could be more built on top of like your communication tool is quite important for example in Japan people don't want to be refused so for example at the restaurant you can say well I don't need plastic straw then like general people just leave it right but what happens after that well people just throw it away but if you actually refuse directing phase to the people working at the restaurant and then they remember okay well I was refused then do that in front of your friends and then they also get impacted so what if that's just you know repeated twice and then they start to think you know well now people tend to refuse that then why not we asking them do you need that so that's kind of like mind's shift that we could even as an individual can approach and that could lead to the system change that's 30 seconds because I'm going to try for a third round of questions I think it's important this collective element you know I think especially also in developing country building the infrastructure I heard the story you know about a town collecting all the plastic putting it all on a place and then once a week a truck comes and picks all the plastic and then one of my colleagues from South Pole asked the truck driver what he's doing with the plastic and he simply throws it into the river you know so they are collecting everything they are doing everything correctly but in the end it ends up in the river you know and this shows how important it is that we built the infrastructure because else without the infrastructure it's very difficult as the individual to do something and in building up this infrastructure I think we have a responsibility because our companies put plastic there they don't have the infrastructure yet to correctly dispose this or reuse this so we have to help building up this infrastructure very good thank you I'm going to be ambitious Michelle I'm looking at you alright awesome this panel asked for more questions and to get to questions quickly so here we go a quick third round see here we go three quick I'm going to take three keep it super short and then as we come back to the panel pick your question but also what's your big takeaway the thing that you're sort of like blew your mind while here okay oh my god there's a lady at the end in the purple there is a lady with a scarf a grey scarf yes you yes and there is another my eyesight is so bad there is a lady with glasses and long dark hair in blue yeah do you know who you are I'm sort of like yes it's you you've still got your hand up alright have we got the mics to people lady in purple your name and quick question keep it quick my name is Petina and I'm from Austria and I want to go back to the consumer part because we actually do have like in my hometown we do have some stores that sell package free food for example they're just like several times more expensive than if you buy the regular food so I was wondering like what would make it more attractive for businesses to actually produce and sell package free food or also electronics that you could like reuse or modular phones for example to also make it more attractive for consumers great question it's a great question because it's crazy it shouldn't be more expensive right because as you said the market is tiny like there's like two stores without like that and like what would have to happen to make this market grow and like to help it great question thank you to lady with the scarf gray scarf yes hi I'm Caroline so Bastian you said that consumerism will further become and already is a problem our society faces so my question is how can you imagine companies so essentially brands cut down their product output if there are regular trends and the demand for these is so high I apologize I can you repeat that again because I didn't fully understand the first part but I apologize this is my so Bastian he touched upon like consumerism he said that people like they look at their neighbors like a car for example they aren't a bigger one or like their shoes yeah is that better keep going keep going yeah so my question is how how do you imagine companies so like brands that for example make like fashion or whatever cut down their product output if there are regular new trends and the demand for these is so high awesome thank you thank you for repeating that sorry that was my problem lady with the yes you hi I'm Selena so I was kind of thinking about well we're talking about raising awareness to all of these issues now but how can we be taken seriously and kind of go forward from today onwards and really actually make an impactful difference um yeah so it's sort of it and also a little bit on the less economically developed kind of thing like how can we in a way sort of encourage encourage them um you know like to participate in something greater because a lot of times it's not in their interest to kind of ban plastic bags or they might try to find the easy way out so yeah maybe more on the awesome and I'm going to ask everyone to end on your first question actually so we've got why are sustainable products more expensive and how do we make sure that they're not in the future when we've got influencers asking us to buy the next great thing and I want that next great thing because my friend has it how do we sort of get out of that loop and back to that healthy healthy growth um and then let's let's ask everybody so let's take this seriously what makes the impact full difference now the one thing and I'd want everybody to answer that who wants to go for the first piece I think we might need we might need biker I might need you on that yeah I'm not sure I know the answer um it's um no that's a good answer um you're right uh sustainable products should be cheaper uh but the irony is that sometimes not sustainable products are cheaper because you can store them longer the whole supply chain can deal better with it so economically and it has something to do with taxation system and the way we um that waste is for free um and the way we price in our products but with the current economic system you have that that the sustainable products are sometimes more expensive and we need to say also that not everything I think will be changed by regulations and governments you talked a lot about consumption also if I take one country it's very dangerous I don't know how many people here out of Germany okay that's a good answer um but Germany is very known in Europe to pay not so much for your food the retail companies in Germany have the lowest lowest prices of food and it is highly appreciated by by the consumers that demand of the consumers will be fulfilled by a supply of people who see a market for that so at the end of the day I think a lot of burden a lot of responsibilities for companies for governments but at the end of the day we need also to look I think to ourselves if we look to food waste we talked about 30 percent the latest calculation is maybe it is about 50 percent of the food we throw away and I take also in the beginning of the food production of the land if you take everything we throw away about 50 percent in the meantime we have also and you referred to that earlier a billion people go to bat hungry every year and of every day and that is a very very strange system now what can help us a little bit is technology we can reprocess we have new technologies which can convert agriculture waste into green energy etc but our whole supply systems need to be redesigned and I would like to give some respect to I think your neighbor asked in the first round also are people in Africa and people who are hungry not thinking about the next meal before they think about any pollution and I agree with you and I've been many many times in in those places and I think one necessity we also have is to ban hunger in the world it's ridiculous with so much waste that we have so much hunger and I think we need to make Africa we need to make India self-supporting in food production by local production local sourcing local converting for the local population Africa is importing for 25 billion on food aid every single year it's ridiculous Bastion how do we get influencers who tell us to use less and not buy the next thing that's very challenging I think what we have to see is that companies and markets are very efficient in solving especially scare cities no and that's why we should give them clear task so the task should be no more waste into nature and they can do it they will find a lot of solutions but we have to say it as a society as policy when it comes to consumerism I think it's important to defend also the community and the public space not everything has to be about consumption if I think about our railways you know our stations we have now this advertisement we have this animated advertisement you have to close the eyes to go through the rail stations not to be like notched to buy something you know there is this flight advertisement saying I have done this I have done that like so inspiring people to say yeah to brag about where they were in the world and I think this has people or companies will not spend so much money on it if it wouldn't have an influence and I think we should be get more aware about these influences and defend some spaces say okay market has its place to solve some issues but there should be also some places where it should be not about consumption and so for instance advertisement I think that's a bit also and of course Naomi Klein's claim but I think she has a point there that it shouldn't be everywhere and I think also the public can do more the rail stations are actually public but they look at the moment as a consumption temple and then let's end on I think Selena your question what needs to happen now what would you do as the most impactful thing now so I'm going to start here with Milati I think you because you were talking a little bit more about like how you can mobilize and get people moving especially governments I think first and foremost what we've learned through our experience with biahausig bags it was building momentum through people powered movement we had to show like what was expressed we had to show that the people want this and that's the that's there's a miscommunication happening where we still hear industry saying that the people do not want it and we still hear government saying the people are not ready for it so there is a massive miscommunication here and that's where I feel like the younger generation can play a massive role in becoming that bridge so engage yourself find a local you know local person in your government that is willing to listen to you that is willing to help you understand the barriers within government but if you find that just one person for us you know like to get to the government to get to the governor we first started at the janitor and then at the security and then at the secretary and then to his assistance assistant you know and there's a ladder that you have to climb but to understand how you can influence and move a needle and policy change which is what we need for businesses to be able to move for consumers to really put their stance on we as individuals have to show that we want this and that can start with one person mobilizing an entire community and for us it was more the plastic bags but what is it here what are the local challenges in your community what are you passionate about as I think as young people that's something that we also have to understand is that the most important thing is if you find that one thing you're really passionate about that you think 24-7 about because when you're fired up about it nothing can stop you and I think that that's really really important that's where influencer right here and making sustainability irresistible Jennifer yeah I was going in a similar direction which was you know to pick the thing that you're passionate about and then work it through and make it and you know that could be you know this issue about you know cheap clothes and what's going on well then get all your friends to I don't know boycott pre-mark pre-mark or but pick something or you know worried about why are you buying precedents for your next holiday get people together and do a make something day and make a present right or so it can be many different things but I think it's it's picking what you're passionate about and then looking at how you combine a campaign that almost gives it an alternative you know alternative very positive way of of living but then also make sure you know that that is being communicated into the politician or the policy maker because I think I know that that sounds like an extra step but I think that and the company right so if you do something get it on social media but also identify who the decision maker is in your community or who the company is that you're trying to influence and connect the dots because there's so much information out there I think sometimes you know you think you do you think you do an action be climbing a an oil rig somewhere but don't assume that the energy minister has any clue that that's happened so make that extra effort to organize and connect those dots but do one thing that you're passionate about and just go for it same question I'm coming down the line and we're answering Selina's question about what's the most impactful thing that we should be doing right now I'm not I'm gonna allow you not you're not allowed to say the Paris Agreement peace okay because you've said that twice I want a new idea I think actually it would be a good but in the end we have to admit yes you've got that it'll only take a decade or two don't worry so put it down to one single there are so many areas where we could act I think what's important to see is that everyone has to make a step no I think it's the community I think here you're very engaged you have great questions and also put the issue on the table put some pressure this pressure is hugely important and actually I think oh we are a great panel and together we would find many solutions and if each one of us makes a step then we are a step further and this is circularity but there is no easy solution except the Paris one fine you've already got it wait we're in we're in awesome but to work towards this Paris goal for waste I think we need step by step okay good Akira right so coming back to that packaging a little bit so as he already mentioned that non-sustinable products are too cheap that's one way to look at it at the same time actually like I share the piece of restaurants then actually how we purchase through that is even cheaper from any of the non-sustinable products why because we work directly more shorter span of supply chain in terms of where it's coming from and then we work with the restaurant who's working directly with the vendors or the farmers even so one part to look at it is about the transparency of course to look where it's coming from but at the same time I believe the technology right now could trace it very well which will of course ensure for any of us to choose which is more shorter which is more right which is more sustainable so that's the way I also to answer how we could scale that kind of business model and for you to start with build your own community it doesn't necessarily be geographical community but like your own community of round of the people and then map out any kind of stakeholders potentially be engaged and involve all of them and map out what's the potential alternatives you could build awesome thank you Fika I don't know who of you lives here in Davos but I feel sorry that there are so many people flying into Davos even in private planes and debating here the elite of the world about the future of this planet and therefore disturbing your life during this week quite a bit here in Davos well I found that fine that they disturb your life for a week if they also take action to improve the state of the world and that is what the world economic forum is for to improve the state of the world and the commitment is not only to go for shelters value and making money but for all stakeholders the planet is one of the stakeholders as well and if the elite of the world is so called elite of the world is here together they have an obligation also what you can do you vote you can vote you can vote on a certain direction and when you turn into a consumer when you are in the shopping mall you can think about the same principles you used when you vote and there is a big difference between voters and citizens and consumers and please don't decrease your power as a consumer you can vote also there with your feet buying certain products not buying other products and companies will change fast if you do that I want to quote basically the most brilliant idea is the two people you see here in the panel both very young 12 when she started now not today she's 19 but look banning plastic bags in Indonesia and even the Chinese government last week said I will follow you so you can have an impact if a girl 12 years old where you were at that moment and yourself also and we were discussing another name and I promised to repeat her name many times Raina Otsuka you have no clue who that is a Japanese colleague of you who said I don't want to be a consumer anymore I only want to be a user and not a consumer of products and we all can do that and I quote one of your young colleagues and if we have a panel with two people who are like Jennifer said slightly younger than I am don't laugh I don't look that old but much younger than I am okay I buy it and improve the state of the world so much I think I think there is a lot of hope for all our people here in the room also I see a lot of young faces who can help contributing changing the world that is what I take away now as the consumers international I would say in addition to your human rights there are consumer rights and actually we need to use all of our rights right now in order to make the change we need to see happen so I would actually I think there is power in the word consumer whatever we say is a consumer so we have come to the end Michelle is just shouting at me down there and I I think this has been a fantastic discussion I am supposed to according to this to wrap up and that is pretty much impossible but we went from the disposable society and talking about band-aids straight into the heart of the question how do we measure this the ourselves how do we measure real healthy positive growth and innovation what are we measuring here how do we follow the money to make this work how do we get the finance working behind all of this whether it's taxation whether it's green finance etc and we talked about responsibility all of the different stakeholders came up here and each one of them had a responsibility from the consumer to business to government and they were all interlinking we talked about responsibility you've developed towards developing and locally internationally and I hope Dominic we did stop and think about how we reduce reuse recycle sufficiently but keep keep talking because everybody here said it's about community at the end I thought that was quite surprising 3.5% of any population are apparently a tipping point if you get 3.5% of any group together it's a tipping point for a change to happen so even if everybody came up with I think that's a pretty good point to end on and I would suggest that everybody puts pressure towards COP26 at the end of this year when we're going to be looking at the targets that countries set for making this whole change happen so I want to thank our amazing panelists I agree that was an awesome awesome panel I would also like to thank the audience for excellent questions and for working together as a group and even though we didn't get to sing Malati happy birthday maybe we'll just keep in touch and do that for when is your birthday? December 19 oh well there we go awesome okay excellent we will do that by social media or something thank you so much