 So it's my great pleasure to be able to introduce Dr. Josie Jacob Ponodat, who is joining us from India, where he is a principal of St. Thomas Orthodox Theological Seminary in Nagpur. This is one of the positions that he has now, so he's been very busy in the past with a different, he was a member of the faculty of the Holy Trinity Theological College in Addis Ababa. So this is of course where he spent a lot of time. So he has insight into not just the doctrine of orthodoxy, but actually also into the practice. So these are facts which allow us to ask our speaker questions, both about his ideas on a conceptual basis and then also the practical experience that he accumulated in life. I'm extremely happy that he will be joining us today for this CWC seminar here at the School of Oriental and African Studies, and I would like to pass the word over to Dr. Jacob now in order to allow him to introduce his topic and to speak for about 20 minutes, half an hour, longer if you want to, shorter if you think that is appropriate, and then we can discuss the points that you raised. So thank you very much and welcome here to our center at SOWAS. Thank you Dr. Laos. So much happy and proud that I have got this chance to be with you with CWC of SOWAS, the University of London, and I'm thanking Dr. Valmina Estrati who is a long-standing friend of mine for introducing me and I'm so happy with that. So the topic which we have already decided to present today is the Evangelical Missions of the Managari Workflow Research of India in 19th and 20th centuries, a reaction against the caste-based social structure. Here I think I have to introduce two major things, major, major things which are related to the topic. One is the basic caste structure in general in India and in Kerala specifically. And I'm sure that most of you are very well aware of this caste system which is very prevalent in Indian society which is really, you know, really structured Indian society or really an agency which caste system itself is so crucial and influential in structuring the Indian society and you know it well. Actually the general Indian caste system is four-tire plus one outcasted group, a four-tire caste system with the Brahmins, the Prishtli class, the Chitriyas, the ruling class, or the Novelites and the warriors together and the third class, the Vaisyas, the Mercantile class and the Shudras, the Labour class. And there is a big group of outcasted people who are now popularly called Dalit. Dalit literally means the word Dalit literally means broken. They are called panchamas traditionally. That means the fifth caste who are outcasted and they used to be regarded as subhuman people and I'm not entering into the details of the Hindu traditional understanding of explaining this group of caste and all those things. But while coming to the very society of Kerala which is a state in the southwestern part of India where the Malangra Ordruk Church or the Saint Thomas Christian community is surviving or is ordinated and it's a prominent Christian community there in Kerala actually. There in Kerala we have to understand certain things which are different from the general society of India. One thing is the caste system. In Keralite society the caste system is not actually four-tire but three-tire plus one. The Brahmins, the priestly class is existing. The Chitryas, the second class is existing. The third class, the Vaisyas are not at all in Keralite society. The third class, the Mercantile class is totally absent in Keralite caste structure. And the fourth class, Shudras, of course, they are there. And the fifth class, the panchamas or the outcasted. But that outcasted also is graded in different ways. And then coming to the community of Saint Thomas Christians, of course it is, I'm sure that you are scholars in this field of social sciences and you know that. Saint Thomas Christian community is the traditional Christian community in Kerala. Kerala is in the southwestern coast of India. It's a long strip of land with around 600 kilometers of length and 80 kilometers of width. It's a long strip of land with an entirely different terrain compared to the other states in India. And then with quite a different social structure, social patterns. And it's quite sociologically different from the other, culturally also different from the other parts of India and the other societies in India. In Keralite society, the Saint Thomas Christian community is regarded as one among the high caste in the caste structure. Assimilation of a particular Christian community existing there for at least for many centuries or at least more than one and a half millennium has been assimilated or has been accepted as a part of the higher caste society or the society in its you know the elite class of the society eventually. And then according to the traditional beliefs of the Saint Thomas Christian community in Kerala, the founder of the Christian community in India or the traditional Christian community in India is Apostle Saint Thomas himself. And then the community to which I belong believes that Saint Thomas the Apostle traveled all the ways from Palestine to Kerala to the to a part in Kerala and he established the church in 50 to 80. And then the church is still continuing without any historical interruptions. That's what we traditionally believe and I'm not entering into the details of that and I'm not trying to prove that because it is not totally historically proven a fact but it is a long-standing tradition that it is there. And then the presence of a Christian community at least from third century is almost a proven fact. It could be an extension of the Mesopotamian Christian community and they're not in particular details of that also because it is not coming under the scope of our subject. But what I want to highlight is that you know as this Christian community the Saint Thomas Christian community is existing in the state of Kerala in the society of Kerala for many long years or many long centuries it became accepted as a part of the higher caste privileged community. It became a part of the privileged community and certain of the historians of the current historians like Dr. Puri and Thomas I specifically wish to mention his name and he is the one who tries to bring an argument that the third caste is totally absent in the Indian society and that third caste used to be the mercantile caste, the traders and then majority of the Syrian Christians in early times used to be engaged, used to engage in this mercantile activities or they used to replace the role of the mercantile class in the Keralite society and they literally replaced the third caste and that's why a third caste, the mercantile caste is practically absent in the Keralite caste hierarchy and I'm not quite sure that that argument is generally accepted by the other historians and I'm not quite sure that he can produce ample evidences to prove his hypothesis and so I'm not that's it called I'm not arguing that it is a right right understanding or it's it's properly factually acceptable but it is quite an interesting observation a bright historian has made recently that the Syrian Christian community's assimilation into the Keralite society is practically replacing the third caste the Vaishyas the the mercantile class that is something to be not anyway it is interesting that Syrian Christian community has enjoyed a lot of privileges in the Indian the Keralite social system, the privileges which they have enjoyed were almost equal to the privileges of the higher caste Hindus and that is we have got ample evidences for the fact that the Syrian Christians used to enjoy different privileges which were granted to them as a group of ethnic as an ethnic group the caste system as you know it is ethnically endogamic groups ethnically endogamic groups the Syrian Christians or Saint Thomas Christians the so-called Saint Thomas Christians or Syrian Christians of Kerala are also almost keeping their endogamy even today not very strictly but they are so concerned traditionally they are very concerned about their endogamy which is a common characteristic which we could notice among all the all the Hindu higher caste people all through India all over India and specifically in Kerala too so what I really want to to to to argue is that Saint Thomas Christians practically got assimilated or they actually got assimilated into the Keralite society for many centuries but they have never involved in any sort of serious evangelical missionary activities until the late 19th century we don't have any any specific evidence that the Saint Thomas Christian community uh involved in engaged in any sort of missionary activity in Kerala until the late 19th century one of the reason is that the privileges which they were enjoyed were something of the highest higher caste Hindus and then the caste system is unlike the class or unlike any any any other social stratification system caste system demands a strict endogamy to keep the ethnic identity intact so the Syrian Christians practically used to follow the same system of endogamy endogamy was so much a particular uh what's it called a particular aspect of their ethos so that that prevented them from making anyone uh joining their community even though it is a religious uh you know community even though it was a religious it was a Christian community this endogamy attitude and their specific consciousness of their higher caste identity and the social status in Keralite society status in Keralite society practically prevented actually that's what I believe prevented them from engaging in evangelical mission then the concept of extensive evangelical mission was introduced into Indian society as a whole in general was uh by the Portuguese people the Portuguese mission was began in 1506 in 1498 Vasco de Gama arrived Kerala Kanganob it's one of the one of the port cities of Kerala then then Kerala and then in 1506 Francis Xavier a Catholic monk priest began his formal mission evangelical mission in one of the western central western states of India called Goa and then it has been extended down to Kerala to prove the cost this coastal mission uh of Francis Xavier and the Portuguese missionaries was practically the first extensive missionary activity evangelical missionary activity uh done in India and after that in 19th century the British people came and the church mission society also did a lot of missionary activities but their missionary activities were just converting people mostly mostly and almost uh the main practically all of them practically actually all of them were converted from the group of panchamas that means the people who were outcast and the outcasted people were converted to Christianity by the Portuguese people and the British people uh starting from 16th century and through uh in almost up to the middle of 20th century that mission was very active missions were very active what happened with those missionary communities they were converted to Christianity but they continued to remain as Dalit Christian communities because their Dalit identity was not taken off and they continued to be Dalit Christian communities because all the members in their community were Dalit people all the members in their community were converted from this lowest caste or the panchamas the outcasted people and they continued to be labeled as a Dalit Christian community or panchamas Christian community or the lowest caste community the first serious evangelical activity of the Malangara Orthodox Church which is the most traditional sect in the Saint Thomas Christian community began in late the fourth quarter of 19th century the Malangara the Saint Thomas Christian community which is a traditional Christian community in India has been divided into three all the three general groups of Christianity as certain people joined the Catholic Church by the influence of the Portuguese people and certain of them joined the reform church the Anglican church and joined in communion with the Anglican church and they became a reformed group and then a a sect of them a group of them remained with this continued with the Orthodox community and then but generally they are they are the interesting thing is that their endogamy is not practically affecting this church affiliations they are still still trying to continue to understand it as one ethnic community not we don't explicitly I belong to that community so I know it from inside I can I have an I have an emic perspective of that so but I hope I will I will be trying to be more objective on that but so this endogamy is in the heart of the community still in the heart of the community but that endogamy endogamy is not seriously challenging or that that endogamy is not seriously considering the the the church affiliations whether they belong to the reform group or they belong to the Catholic group or they belong to the Orthodox group they don't seriously mind so I would say that it is more an ethnic consciousness than a religious thing or a denominational thing that is that is that is what I want to highlight there but in 19th century one of the great visionary bishops Saint Gregorius of Parimala we call him Saint Gregorius of Parimala he began the missionary activities of the church and then he decided to conduct took a lot of initiative to convert many of the lower caste people into orthodox christianity to the Malangara orthodox church which is the which is the most which is a very prominent group in among the saint Thomas christians and then he was so particular to convert the Dalit to the Malangara orthodox church and he was very keen to keep them as a part of the community as a part of the community he wanted to extend the identity of the community to the newly converted to as I have already already mentioned the mission evangelical missions done by the portuguese people and the evangelical missions done by the church mission society of the british people converted a lot of people the number of converts were much more than the converts made by the people who were brought to christianity by Saint Gregorius of Parimala and I'm calling him Saint Gregorius because he was declared a saint by the church 45 years after his death in 1947 he Saint Gregorius passed away in 1902 and then he passed away at age of 54 at a very young age and then he was declared a saint in 1947 he was the first declared saint of the orthodox church of India and his specific interest was not simply to convert them to christianity but to integrate them into the into the Malangara orthodox church which is a part of the Syrian christian community and then that really brought big changes in their lives their status has been elevated from the untouchables to members of the Syrian christian community to a great extent even then even then the community or the members of the community did not accept them into the endogamic system of the community even when they were allowed to participate in the liturgies and the worship and in social activities together with the other members of the church but when it comes to the marital relationship they were so particular for many many decades even after to keep the endogamy then this in the social realm of Kerala this conversions made by Saint Gregorius brought a lot of changes then the untouchability of the panchamas or the fifth caste people or the outcasted people were so much a social taboo or social problem which they were facing and their lives were very much in trouble because of this so-called the problem of untouchability but by the conversion of these people into the Orthodox Church they got the identity they began to share the identity of the Saint Thomas Christians by becoming the members of the Orthodox Church of India and that really brought significant changes in their lives and that really brought a social status elevation for those who joined and then this bishop was a shortly person I told you that he died at the age of 54 and then it is so unfortunate that nobody took up that responsibility and continued the mission until the second quarter of the 20th century another person who his name was empty Peter and then he was a very well educated young man and was appointed as an officer for taking care of this lower caste people by the king of Kochi which is a small state in Kerala Kerala was divided into three sovereign states of three kingdoms and then the central kingdom was called the kingdom of Kochi and the king of Kochi has appointed this bright young man from this Balangara Orthodox Christian community as an officer who is supposed to take care of his for taking care of this lower caste people and he was called this Bulea special officer and then he was given his office was given judicial powers and then when he began to interact with these people he realized that you know these people cannot get a better living condition and they cannot be integrated into the society without taking them out of the clutches of the Hindu hierarchy caste hierarchy so then he with all his dedication began to make involved with the evangelical mission resigning his bureaucratic position and he joined a monastery and then he became a monk priest and then he involved in evangelical mission with a specific orientation to bring them into the mainstream of the society to integrate them into the mainstream of the society. What he tried to do was not simply extending a an identity to them but he tried to to bring them into the mainstream of the society by providing facilities for education and healthcare to the poor to the to the Panjimas who joined the Orthodox Church of India in the second and then his works were extended to mainly his works were the second and third quarters of 20th century and then through his works this integration became became seriously possible and then in the independent India too they the integration continued but later there was a problem from the from the side of the government that you know government has decided to cancel the reservation rights extended to these people that they cancel the result they stop providing the reservation rights to the Christians who joined or who integrated into the mainstream of the church because they say that this reservation right is for the Dalits whom are facing caste based oppression and the Dalits who left Hindu hierarchical structure by joining Christianity is not no more facing this oppression so they don't need to get any reservation or any extra support from the government that was really a problematic situation for them because they were they were given a privilege to be members of the church and they were regarded as you know regarded as the members of the Saint Thomas Christian community but their socio-economic conditions were not that much better comparing to the other other members members of the Dalit community who continue to belong to belong to the Hindu religious groups so what I want to highlight is that the interest of the church leaders and even the church is concerned about that interest that the bringing them to Christianity is shouldn't be for simply for the sake of converting them and to add the number of people into the church not to add to the bulk of the church but to bring them into the mainstream of the social life and I don't think that today there is a serious significance for that and then this opened a new understanding in the mission aspects of all the churches and then later the communities the different churches in Syrian Christian communities like as a Catholic group in the Syrian Christian community continue to follow this one and they're also involved in serious missionary activities to bring these outcasted people and people of the lower class the so-called Dalits into their church and they also got this integrated they also got this privilege by integrating themselves into the mainstream of the church. Another important thing which I want to highlight is that these two bishops in Gregorius and Bishop Ostatius who whose former name was Mr. Peter they insisted the Syrian Christian families to extend their names to give their family names to this newly converted people because family names play a crucial role in Keralite society in determining to which group they do belong so I don't know how far it is in the west it's been in Keralite society the Syrian Christians used to have their own family names and these family names are really determinant factors in expressing their social status and then these bishops particularly were so particular to extend family names of the Syrian Christians to the newly converted and that really worked and then their integration into the mainstream of the society was so easy in that regard and then eventually I believe that as we are noticing eventually with this family names and with their complete integration into the system endogamy is eventually getting a little bit open and then they are also getting integrated into the society in many regards and this perspective of mission is something which is to be studied properly with an anthropology perspective I believe and not only from the perspective of Christianity and not only from a missionary evangelical perspective or not only from the perspective of theology but it is to be seen from a sociological perspective and I just wish to highlight this aspect to you and then this is what I really want to raise an issue before you and I am so happy for the discussions if you raise questions and I will be very happy to be a part of the discussion thank you. Well thank you. I don't know how far I was clear in present very clear actually and since I well as a historian I recognize some of the place names as well but I'm not an expert in the social structure of Kerala but what you said is definitely something that I recognize from for example the Middle East where you have literally well endogamous societies which are defined by religious affiliation and this is something that you get very well if there are people who go against this mainstream then you get very determined reactions by the by let's say let's call them family members or representatives of conservative representatives of a representative of a conservative society but so this also works in societies where a formal caste system does not exist but this is perhaps something that we can discuss in the in the next few minutes so who would like to ask a question Shehan or Joe or Richard I should say that I've received a number of messages by members of the center who can't get in they it's one of them is Romina but but she's actually in Addis Ababa at the moment that she is in a meeting so she can't she she can't join in online but others are online but they they say it's impossible to get in so I yes that's unfortunately what I what I feared that that the internet is not strong enough for there is a problem with the internet but so those of us who are here we will need to lead the discussion and we will need to again we will need to make up for the for our members who are outside the door so to speak Shehan would you like to ask something yes or you need to your friend I think you're mute yes yes thank you for that very stimulating talk I have several questions one is I am from Sri Lanka so I'm familiar with the Portuguese and I'm talking social setup after independence and we have the Dutch and the British after the Portuguese all about 150 years each yes yes one quiz is the family names which you mentioned like my own name De Silva sir name so that is an identifier okay so if you if the people took those names on at the time of conversion during Portuguese times the question is why didn't they change when the Portuguese lost power during the Dutch and the British times and there is a a pecking order of European descendants the British at the top the Dutch at the second and the Portuguese third so Portuguese is not a good descendant to be today it's a low low end of the social spectrum so why do the Singhalese and the Tamils the majority who are not even Christians or Catholics who are Hindus and Buddhists even carry on with these names like Fernando and Pires and Kure and you know and identify to the Portuguese during that time okay colonial times it's a social badge kind of a westernization but what benefit is then in independent times when nationalistic thing is to become all you know Singhala and Buddhists the majority so yeah you know let me say what I mentioned is about the Kerala community the Kerala traditional Christian society we never accepted any any family name either from Portuguese or nor from yeah we never accepted either from Portuguese or from Dutch or from British it's traditional my name itself is must be very strange to you my family name is Fernando that is that is that indicates what what category of a family I'm from only in my locality and then that is that is a peculiar kind of social structure existing in in the Kerala society and it is it is typically a Kerala family name and then this family names are shared with the people who joined and that is what I mentioned and it's not it's not an adaptation of family names from any of the foreign agencies who came over here the colonial powers who came over here but this this but you know when when my when my grandfather was alive certain people who were living around my ancestral properties got converted by this Bishop Maro Stathios or MP Peter I mentioned earlier then it was so particular to share and naturally it happened that you know they have assumed the family names of the major families of Syrian Christians who in in proximity in proximity that's how they got integrated into the community when after one or two generations when they mentioned their names and they can mention this name as their family name then the discrimination is eventually eventually got reduced that is what I mentioned and then family names with the western western you know western family names are with the people who are mostly converted by the British people so I'm sorry mostly converted by the Portuguese people and the British and the death period in Kerala was too short of period and I don't think that there are death family names but you know Portuguese family names are there but that family names keeps them very clearly distinct that they are converted by the western missionaries or western mission western missionaries actually that's it but when they when they when they act when they hold the family names of typical Kerala Syrian Christians and they have a different social status that's what I mentioned you know not a social status but you know you can understand that their integration to the society is much more easier than holding a western family name. Yes thank you and I just wondered about the first Thomas Christians how did the linguistic barriers they had what how did they overcome them did the converts understand what they were converting to or were they? No actually the symptoms Christians in Kerala Kerala is having one language and the Indian states are mostly divided as linguistic states not ethnic states you know ethnic cities are always overlapping everywhere and then ethnic groups are not there but ethnic classes or the castes are there in India that is something making Indian society very peculiar if you in Africa of course and I'm familiar with Africa because I have lived in 97 in Ethiopia for 16 years so I know the African system in Africa ethnic groups are there but in India there is no ethnic group but ethnic classes or ethnic classes can be called ethnic castes castes are there ethnicities divided into castes in India but linguistic divisions are there when states were constituted in India in 1950 and after. So Kerala is having one single language which is called Malayalam. So there was no language barrier in conversion of people because Keralite the St. Thomas Christian or the Malangara Orthodox Church mission was mostly focused within Kerala itself where we are following the same language of course different slangs are there in different parts of Kerala but mostly the same language and then only one sect of people who joined to the church from the Catholic Church that was not an evangelical mission I wouldn't count it as an evangelical mission a group of people joined the Orthodox Church whom were earlier converted by the Portuguese people and that joining of that group occurred in the late 19th century and that was that was not a part of the Vandal Commission we didn't convert anyone from outside Kerala whom are having a different language. Okay and so because in Sri Lanka linguists say that the first time people understood religion the word of God was the Wesleyan through the Wesleyan church which is a working class kind of church and that the previous converts didn't understand what they were converting into so I mean how I mean they converted due to what they could get jobs or their social prestige you know for those reasons not really understanding what they were converting to in terms of religion. But I think I think here in in the Kerala society that means the conversion when it happened late 19th century the bishop was involving in conversion was really seriously seriously making it as a matter of the church and then he was a very very very genuine person and he became a bishop at the age of 29 and possibly at the age of 54 in such a dedicated man he was and then he was so particular to bring them to Christianity with all its content and it was not for social status he did he taught them properly the faith of the church but at the same time he was so concerned to bring them into the mainstream society by integrating them into the church and then it was not only simply for social uplifting of the community but it was the intention was really to to bring them to Christian faith. So the number of converts you know who joined the church in the Manukar Watrao church is much smaller than the number of converts who joined into the other churches especially to the church in communion with the CMS mesheries or church in communion with the Portuguese church or Catholic church it is significantly smaller but the the intention was not simply social uplifting or not simply adding number to the to the to the church but it was for both in it was for both. Thank you. Thank you. Richard we have your hand yes. I want to go back in time to when I was about 15 or 16 which is around 1961 I think when I think the Goanese sorry the Goa was taken over by Krishna Menon or instigated that I remember it very well and my late father who was a master mariner he was a captain in the British India line and the saloon crew on British India line ships with by and large were from Goa and I remember going on my father ship in the docks when it came and many many of the the Goanese including the butler were very very upset and worried about you know the invasion of Goa because they did not want the car system it was you know some of them were even crying about it and that that sticks in my memory very much indeed that's just a thought about what in a way it's not a total digression from what we're talking about but it was a reality in 1961. Yeah of course the situation Goa and Kerala are much different actually in Keralite society has but it's Keralite society has undergone serious evolutions because of many reasons and then I am sorry that I apologize that I cannot speak very authentically on the situation Goa which I am and so I'm not capable of making a serious comment on that matter but in if you have anything related to the Christian society in Kerala I hope I will be more able to make comments on that. I have a question that leads directly from what she had said earlier on namely languages and the understanding of the the the gospel by the first converts. From what point onwards do we get printed catechisms and similar literature that is meant to explain the the gospel is it from the I mean that would be in the speaking to those who were actually able to read so it would have to be it's also a literacy question you know who is literate at that point and if if they belong to the outcasts are there schools that cater where there are schools that catered specifically for the for the costless or outcast people children. Yes the viral was translated into Malayalam and was published for the first time in 1829 and that was that was in a translation was done by mostly under the auspices of the British missionaries especially CMOS missionary group and then local certain of the local priests of the Malagra Orthodox Church also got involved in the translation and but the publication was done by the CMOS missionaries and then we are really thankful for that to the CMOS missionary group and then the question is very very interesting and it is very very much an important question I feel that you know the Dalits or the the the outcasted people were kept powerless by keeping themselves away from education. Epistemological divide which the traditional society society built up between the uppercast of the people and the lower cast of the people really kept them deprived of any sort of accusation of knowledge that really kept them weak and powerless for generations and generations and it is the western missionaries especially the British missionaries who brought a serious change into that situation and it is CMOS missionaries it is CMOS missionaries who brought a chance for them to learn in systematic schools and then it is because of the works of the CMOS missionaries and the catholic church too I have to say the catholic church too I don't specifically say the Portuguese missionaries but the later catholic church seriously got involved and then it is interesting to say that you know Palli in Malayalam Palli means the church and then the name for the school the word for the school is Palli Kudam Palli Kudam means the attachment the the annexure of the church the annexure of the church that is that is an interesting that is pointing to an interesting fact that you know education was established in was provided in these schools and then I'm so proud to say that the English education began systematically in I built and I heard that in India at least in Kerala for the first time is in our seminary which was established in 1815 and then we began this systematic foreign language education in India began in our seminary in 1815 and the church of Baragara approach that was so particular to bring the light of education and to the to all all members and all all all all people of Kerala and then the church also ranks a lot of schools and then of course we have to thank the CMOS missionaries for their great mission very very good at question that was yes because I was thinking of the Jesuits in Goa that the connection that they got here from and at present for for many for many decades Kerala is having the highest literacy rate in all through India Kerala is a state with the rural and urban but you know its literacy rate is mostly 99 plus because it's it's 99 plus and then in healthcare and in education Kerala is far advanced and the other states thank you thank you very much other questions John maybe no can I can I ask absolutely yes we there was the Indo-Portuguese of coaching I don't know think there was a local name linguists call it Indo-Portuguese of coaching so but in Sri Lanka in the 1820s earlier than what you said we have Bibles in the Indo-Portuguese of salon Robert Newstead so I just wondered whether you have Catholic Bibles you know Bibles that the Catholic Church translated into the Indo-Portuguese of coaching I don't think you know as far as I understand the Catholic Church was not so particular to translate Bible and to make it available to the people until 1964 the 63 to 65 under the Second Vatican Council the Catholic Church was not so particular to exactly in the in 19th century the Catholic Church never published anybody they never made any Bible available to the to the common public and the biblical knowledge was even to the people through the readings by the the priests in the church and through the sermons that is that was a policy of the general Catholic Church so as far as I understand the Catholic Church was not so much enthusiastic in translating the Bible into any local vernacular and it was it was the interest of the Portuguese sorry it was the interest of the of the Protestant missionaries the reform missionaries to bring Bible into the hands of everyone in a way they can understand it that means into the local vernacular so that is that is what I understand it is not about the Catholic mission I'm not saying that the Catholics were not enthusiastic in conducting their mission magical activity but not very much enthusiastic in bringing Bible to the hands of the odd people that is a policy of the Catholic Church in general not only of the missionaries in either in India or in Sri Lanka so they wanted to maintain some kind of differential between the church and the could you make it clear did they want to maintain some kind of gap between the church the you know the clergy and the people that was that was there in the Catholic Church at least at least until the Second Vatican Council and they would say Second Vatican Council brought a lot of light into the Catholic way of thinking and then before that of course it was there and the the sacred profane distinction was so so clearly kept there in the Catholic understanding and the clergy and the latee difference was there and that is that's that's a fact and the I'm not criticizing that but that is that was really that was real as far as I understand and you mentioned yes you mentioned there was an absence of the vice yes the trading cast yes there is practically there is some absence of the vice yes the third cast the trading cast in Canada that is true that is why why did it happen is it unique in India not to have a no it's it's unique in India I think it's unique in India the caste system in the northern side of India I actually I live in the north India around or the way from Kerala I personally I'm in Kerala and I will be moving to the northern side of India and they have to do more so then in the northern side of Kerala you can see clearly distinct forecasts and the panchamas that we've cast the brahmanas the priestly class the Chitri as the rulers and the high ranking warriors and third the vice the traders and the the the chudras the general labourers and the outcasted are not allowed to enter into the into the habitats of these upper caste people and to the main street society and even to the main roads earlier not now not now earlier then in Kerala you can see the brahmanas very clearly distinct you can you can understand you can identify the Chitri as the ruling class and the high ranking warriors and then you can see the chudras whom are the labourers and then some of them are used to be used to be in the warrior group not as high ranking warriors but the solid years but you the third caste the vice the trading classes are completely absent totally absent yeah I mean it's on the coast why would there be why wouldn't they want to trade Christians or the saint Thomas Christian community must hold most occupying that role that is historically a reality they were almost occupying the role and then their Christian identity they used it very well for their trade purpose I think when this when this when this Europeans came and then they they they could very well interact with them because of their Christian identity I think it is it has not been established anyway the Syrian Christians and the Muslims used to involve in this trading activities in Kerala and then that could be one of the reasons that you know this third third caste the vice the trading caste is practically absent and it is true that that caste is not in the hierarchy of caste hierarchy of Kerala society yeah so you probably have a historically a landowning class if they were not trading they were rich because they were land ownership was mostly with the Brahmins and the Chitri as a top two and then eventually it came down to the other two that means you know the Syrian Christians and to the Shudras and to Muslims too the land ownership of the Dalits in Kerala it was it was not an established fact their ownership of the land is can be traced back only to 1950s when the communist government of Kerala Kerala is the state where communist government first communist government came into power through a ballot an open ballot that means you know by by election but in a democratic manner that was in 1956 I think and they made the land reforms and then through their land reforms Dalits also got ownership in that until that time they were not given ownership they were possessing some land but you know the ownership used to be with the either of the haircut Hindus or of Syrian Christians or of Muslims and the like that so we don't have any any any document which is clearly speaking about the land ownership of the lands thank you thank you so much and apologies for popping in and out like that I have been focusing and listening even despite my jumping around and now what did you ask my field is is sub-Saharan Africa particularly South Southern African Christian history and one of the things that struck me in your discussion is that it seems as if your Saint Thomas group and with an orthodox sort of background is engaging in something that we contemporary call liberation theology is there some kind of that sort of social uplift that you're talking about is there something in that orthodox doctrine that lends itself to being understood in that way yes you know I don't want to put it I don't know whether we can put it in the category of the liberation theology but social uplifting was always a concern because the orthodox Christianity especially the Balakrotha understand is that the purpose of incarnation of God the Son is to enhance or to empower the humanity physically, mentally, spiritually and socially so this empowerment is the very purpose which we were trying to do to extend empowering the humanity empowering the humanity by bringing it by physically empowering spiritually empowering mentally and socially empowering so we converted them to Christianity with great vigor and then we tried to extend them education and then their hygiene and healthcare were taken very seriously and it was I don't know whether the approach of liberation theology and the approach of the great missionary leaders of the Kerala society were exactly in the same line but in the very purpose in the core of the issue in the core of their minds I of course there are some that the purpose is practically the same. That is so interesting because actually the the sort of historiography of liberation theology is dated from the South American theologist Guterres whose name I've never been able to pronounce and yes Gustavo Guterres yes right and he was he was from Peru he was from Peru yes and yeah so I've found traces of what he what was called liberation theology in the 19th century in the southern african situation but and your right to use the word empowerment because that is the core that seems to be common and the same kind of non-confrontational you know it's not an exotic it's not a call to overthrow it's a call to build from within so that's really really interesting thank you so and I as I know the church in the orthodox church of India and generally the orthodox churches and the orthodox church of India doesn't want to highlight this sort of eschatological hope-based Christianity of course it is it must be realistic and I don't know whether our focus is totally matching with this the focus of the liberation the audience because they are more focusing on the liberation or the uplifting of the people in this world and then we have a balanced approach more more more more an approach of keeping both sides equally important and then healthcare and education were major focuses of these bishops and by integrating them into this may I just follow up with a little question was this um upliftment and empowerment aimed at both men or girls and boys or men and women or yes of course you know that is that is an interesting question I'm so happy that you and thankful to you for raising that question you know this same Gregorius of the the bishop who lived in the late 19th century he is the one who established was who prompted or he and under his leadership was the first school for girls got established in Caroline society the conservative Caroline society especially the surreal Christians and the upper class Hindus were not allowing them allowing their they they they were not allowing their children to join the schools where boys are studying so so conservative of them in 19th century so then uh then Gregorius didn't try to change that attitude but what he tried to do is that he established school for girls so that they they also could join and then he he continuously talked to continuously try to propagate the idea that the girls shouldn't be enslaved in kitchen they should be sent to school and they must be empowered with education and all and then it was his interest that brought many schools for girls established in 19th century later later of course the education was open for men and women but in 19th century itself he was so particular to bring and then uh for both for for for uh girls and the Syrian Christian community traditional Christian community and for the converted adults it was open for both it was not it was it was not it was neither religion based nor caste based but just the gender only for girls because if boys were allowed there the parents wouldn't send girls over there and in 19th century so he allowed only only girls to join the school and then that really brought a lot of difference in the Kerala society for you know in as far as in regard to uh empowering women women empowerment but unfortunately he was shortly and then possibly in 1902 I have one question which I've been keeping in the back because it sounds quite ignorant but what is it that makes the um Orthodox Christians in Kerala Orthodox are there theological um aspects which are which would set them apart from the Catholic tradition but I know it's it's the it's it's an ancient Saint Thomas that is an ancient offshoot of the original Christians but in concrete terms because you mentioned um the development of the Catholic Church with Second Vatican Council you mentioned the Protestant missionary set but um an Orthodox you know the Orthodox Church that what what does it retain in terms of theology that makes it Orthodox that's a good question actually the Malagara Orthodox Church or the the so-called Indian Orthodox Church is belonging to the Oriental Orthodox family and then you know that nothing which is which includes only which includes only six churches the Coptic the Egyptian the Syrian and the Ethiopic and the Eritrean the Armenian and the Indian then we the Syrian Christian community in India were not very much into the classification of either into into Catholic or Orthodox in the early phase of their history that means until 16th century that means the pre-Portuguese period Portuguese people came to Christian came to India in the late 15th century in 1498 only Vasudeva came and then their active participation in the social life of India began in 16th century and until 16th century the identity of the Christians in Kerala was not very much established as either Orthodox or Catholic or in any way any other ways but the interference of the Portuguese people brought some problems in the society and then the church was divided and one group joined the the Catholic Communion in 1599 the whole the Portuguese Portuguese rollers tried to bring the whole of the traditional Christian community of Kerala into into the Catholic Church and then they they were forced to and then in 1653 there was a separation occurred there was a reaction against the Portuguese role Portuguese religious domination and then many of the atrocities which they claimed to happen there during the Portuguese period there in India anyway after that when they got separated from the Portuguese communion or Portuguese when they got separated from the Catholic Communion as a reaction against the Portuguese and then the Portuguese activities and then the Portuguese are the one who brought them into Catholic Church and then as a reaction they departed from the Catholic Communion and then they seek the help of certain Orthodox churches in the Middle East and the Syrian Orthodox bishops and the missionaries came over there and they eventually accepted the Syrian Orthodox faith and that's how we began to be known as Orthodox and then we are sharing the faith of the Syrian Orthodox Church who sent bishops and clerics for our training and then for keeping the Episcopal succession there in the Indian Orthodox Church and then we have a lot of similarities in liturgy practically we have adopted the liturgical systems of the Syrian Orthodox Church and the faith of the church but the church still remain an independent church and it is an autonomous and autosaphalous church of India that is so fascinating that is very fascinating yes okay so usually the the seminar comes to an end now if you but we can extend it now so if you if you want to have discuss more questions Sihan or Joe I can see that also Richard has dropped out I'm sure this internet is too weak Joe yes please yes if I may I wonder is this kind of a doctrinal and liturgical development discussed under the headings that are sort of oftentimes brought to African Christianization or Africanization of Christianity like um you know some syllogy and sort of a weird and is it understood as just a normal natural development or is there a branch of of a philosophy which tries to distinguish that version of Orthodox Christianity as different from and lacking in comparison to the traditional structures I know you it's not very clear to me I'm sorry could you could you make a little clearer I do I do about the order is it about the orthodox identity of the church or no so so every time you in in the African context when people when people adapt the the liturgical and theological processes from the ones that came with so for for example we also had the Portuguese as well and the Dutch and then the English in almost the same way um every time there's a move to indigenize that or to Africanize okay okay okay okay in you know the situation in Africa and the situation in the in the Malangra or the traditional civilian Christian community are quite different because in Africa Christianity came to their own uh to their own social cultural situations and then they adapted they accepted Christianity and they tried to bring indigenous elements into their practice of their religion which they recently accepted but in Saint Thomas Christian community the culture developed together with them the presence of Christianity was there in India in the early since since the early centuries so they they developed their system they they didn't they adapted they don't have any evidence we don't have any evidence how they adapted when they became Christians in in the early centuries and maybe uh maybe and according to our our traditional belief in the first century itself so the 20 centuries of the cultural development in Kerala and cultural evolutions in Kerala happened them being a part of the society so there was no question of an adaptation or there was no question of a of an integration of the culture or indigenization because it is already naturally indigenized and then then the process of indigenization happened was quite in a different manner because it took too long at time for these people and then many of the people say that you know the integration or indigenization of the Kerala society because Saint Thomas Christians are quite an interesting area we can study if you if anyone of you wish to because it is it is not something which happened in a short span of time but it is something which happened through the development of the culture that means that practically the culture of Kerala developed them being present and them being a part of the process of the development of the culture so it's kind of um it's a natural development that occurs over two millennia rather than yes yes of course and the culture developed with their contribution too their role was there in the development of the culture so it was not it was it was not an integration or it was not an indigenization but the culture developed uh they had their own role in the development of the culture okay thank you very very much thank you very much you're welcome thank you so much I mean this is this lecture and the discussion that has been an eye opener when it comes to both the social structure the linguistic complexity um and the also the historical development of of the um Christian community in Kerala and the even after the independence you know the from from from Britain so um thank you for designing I I have uh if because I know Kerala a little bit but just as a visitor and I I would have liked to spend more time there and the I you are most welcome yes I thank you yes and the the way I come across um Kerala in my studies is actually through the the Portuguese so it takes us back to that but I don't want to go out about this this is um uh something that interests me anyway but um I I think we should put the put the stop here and if there are no more questions um I know that it can happen that members of the our center that they write in in this case I'm going to pass on the the questions to you and this is because these are it's a very um not not just interesting it's actually a vital part of what we understand as word Christianity because this is takes us back to the beginnings of Christianity when you know Christian groups really spread out over the whole world and the the south of India is in a way a logical extension of this because it goes across the sea to to the first land to the first beach that they see so this is the this is um to me it is only logical that the church would have taken root there um yes anyway um I'm extremely grateful that you found the time to speak to us and um I would like to welcome you as a permanent member of our of our center it is your seat so if you have any of uh at any further at any future point in time if you would like to join us for a seminar then please let us know thank you so thank you very much and also happy so happy to participate in the in the seminars in which um uh you know and I have to be a little uh I'm a little concerned about the topics and I will be very happy if you could send me the topics sometime I will be happy if you could include me also in your emailing list yes I will do that this afternoon uh as soon as the server works again because this has been out of action now for some time but I I'm yes we have to we have to trust God that this will become if not the university authorities anyway so thank you very much and um I would like to wish you a very nice evening thank you thank you and thank you goodbye and also goodbye to the others except for Joe okay thank you bye bye bye