 Eric is not on the note today, yeah, we are live. Hello, I think we are live now. Hello, hello, hello and welcome to another coordinating meeting of DM25, the movement for Europe featuring progressive ideas you won't hear anywhere else. And today, we're talking about art. How can art help us to achieve our political goals? How can it bring about the change that the world so desperately needs? Now, DM25 is a movement that since its inception has always taken art and artists very seriously, from working closely with artists for creative campaigns, to developing cultural policy for Europe, to maintaining long-standing connections with some of the leading artists around the globe, which some of you guys who have been following our YouTube channel will be familiar with. And it does all of this through our arts and culture platform, which is called DM Voice. And I'm delighted that in today's call, we've got the three people that run DM Voice, Danai, Nadia and Kit. So first, they're going to be speaking about DM Voice, what it is and where it's going and how you guys can get involved. And then afterwards, we'll open up the call to the wider coordinating collective on the call to have a discussion about art and politics. You, out there, if you've got any comments, anything you want to throw at us, any ideas on these topics, please put them in the YouTube chat and we might be reading them out in between the interventions. Now, let me hand over to Danai to kick it off. Danai. Hello. Thank you, my friend. And hello, everyone. So I was the initiator of DM Voice, of the art platform of DM since the beginning. With Yanis, this is a dialogue which has been an ongoing dialogue how art and politics can inform each other since we first met, which is 15 years ago. And from this perspective, from the very beginning of DM, we founded the platform DM Voice, which aimed at the experiment of seeing how can art be informed by the politics and the politics also be shaped by the art. So this was an experiment. This is how DM Voice started in a way more by asking questions and being present at the political meetings of DM throughout Europe for the first two years. And giving the opportunity to the people who were following these events, our members and more, to express themselves, ask questions. And then these thoughts from our audience and our members would be brought back to the people making the politics, taking the decisions, but also to artists in order to create artworks. And for the political team, let's say of DM, to be informed of what people thought and include this in their priorities, let's say, or in the shaping of the ideas that would make DM go forward. So this is how we started off. And at some point, because always an initiative that is volunteer, as we have seen in many sections of DM, at some point may sort of die out. So here I wanted to say I'm not actually running DM Voice, but I was in, I was one of the initiators. But many people helped the first phase of it to run kit was one of them of those people, and she stuck with it for all this time so here she is running it now together with Nadia. Just to make this the link of how we got there at some point with it, you know, with the with the COVID and the pandemic and all that it brought to the art world. We thought and discussing this with the stage condivana and young is of course and everyone and Eric and other people within the movement. We thought that this was a good moment to re set, let's say, the invoice to see how it could function from the grassroots and be and become more integrated with the movement's goals in order to be able to reach to a wider audience of people who may not be so comfortable coming to a political movement but they may be more open to the art part of it. So let me quickly just wrap it up here and we'll be back and to introduce kit hill and Nadia Salis grad I don't know if I'm pronouncing this well, who were the two people we after many interviews and opening up a call and having amazing people who wanted to help with this effort. We thought that these two people were the ones, the best people to start this effort in order to to to integrate team voice within the goals of the 25. So I give the floor to Nadia, first I believe to inform us of what we have achieved in the last year since we started the we rebooted and then kit we will talk about the future plans. Hello everyone. So I'm just going to quickly summarize what we have been doing in these last months. So the first big task we had was to build up our websites, where you can learn about team voice current activities but also get in touch and know how to get involved as an artist, or as any developer because we think about the artists and culture in a very broad sense so if you are a creative in some kind of way you cannot you're always welcome to come to come to us and and try to get involved somehow in our in all our activities. So that was our big big task for our first text task and we launched the website in April. And with the website we launched the first online exhibition in our gallery on the gallery of our website called raise your voice for such and that was basically our first artistic campaign. So we have the DM 25 principles, and also in the defense of of a member of the advisory panel of the M25 Julian Assange. So we have at artworks on our gallery that you can look at. And after that we keep we kept on doing this campaign for on the journey starts birthday around the third of July. When Julian Assange celebrated his 50th birthday with a new campaign called why are you so afraid of such that had the two aspects one protest action on the main on the day of his birthday where the M25 members went out of the streets with masks or with the artworks from our gallery, or even with chairs replicates the David Dormino sculpture with the chairs and with the whistleblowers and the journalist general Julian Assange. And also we organized the DM TV special episode with David Dormino and Angela Hister to artists that have been doing exactly what we want to do more and more with GM voice which is bring artists to together with politics make this this perfect mix between both and be able to get to a broader audience. And what else we have been involved with many different DM 25 projects such as people's gatherings such as Green New Deal for Europe. And we also organized, we have already like a team of work in design organized that you can join to help us with design with video with photography. And those are in terms of visual identity. You can also get involved with GM 25 and help us make all our overall visual identity look more creative, basically. So now I'll give kids the chance to talk about the future plans of the invoice. Hi, thank you Nadia. Yeah, so now we've sort of we've re reignited and sort of done all these initial projects come autumn. We're really looking towards starting to develop and create our cultural policy. Especially the pandemic has shown a clear light that shine a light onto why we need to refocus on this now it's so crucial. There's lots of Did we lose you kid. Yes, it looks like we did. So kid will be back later when she sorts out her internet problem. It's live that's what happens but it's yeah, you had raised your hand and then we'll bring it back in if she reconnects. Thank you. Very briefly just a quick reflection on how art should work a key role. More and more in politics and in our cultural revolution, we should do a we we should need. I think we also should think a little bit about a definition of art because in my opinion, art and brass literature, writing, art, painting, sculpture, I mean, many different topics and tools. And they and we need all of them in this cultural revolution at all levels. If I think in my country, one of the most important dangerous we have is due to the last 20 30 years. Due to our Berlusconi cultural. Let's say way of thinking. It is completely wrong so the only way we have to try to change completely this kind of thinking is through art and art in a way should be the way to train curious and life angry thinkers. I think it's a good point to think about. Thank you. Thank you, Patricia, Claudia. Yeah, thank you, Patricia. I underline everything you said and but but one thing you missed in arts, it's music. And yeah, as you may know that I was working in the music industry and I'm still working for musicians and artists to music. And I still think this is a very important tool and as we can see in Germany, for example, the the bad thing is, for example, there are many right wing bands here. They are doing really bad texts and they are really huge and they have a big, big audience they are doing concerts with thousands of people like it's it's called. Rock means right rock. And this is really huge and I think we shouldn't keep them the floor to do this. There are also left music bands and so on and perhaps sometimes we should try to cooperate also with those kind of musicians who are interested in those topics as for example I was working with a musician, which is very deep into the topic of climate crisis. And he has many songs about that really cool and it's a kind of rap hip hop and doing in French and English and in German so it's multicultural it's it's it's left wing it's antifascism and those kinds of musicians we we also need to to to to. They need to come to our movement I think we have to work on this as well. Just my two cents. Claudia and we're already getting calls in the chat for people asking for the dim 24 the dim voice website. We will put it in the chat we're just resolving some technical issues but for now, the website can be found at voice dot dm 25.org. You'll mute it done I sorry. Okay, sorry about that. Just to take it from Patricia and Claudia. I just wanted to say that we have started already. Mera, Mera, which is in the Greek Parliament has a small part of the money that we take from the Greek state has to go to cultural and research projects, and it can only be given to that so we have created an institute called Center for post capital for post capitalization which has been running for a few months now we launched it in May. And we had the chance through that exactly to experiment live and to see what can really the impact be and does it actually draw more people in if you speak through the artistic language and through the artistic perspective. What we have done is exactly mixing different forms of art including music, of course, but also not just the high sort of arts, but also more popular kind of arts. Recently we have done a an on tour, a small with performance with three different groups of artists so it's a shadow theater, which is a very old traditional Greek and Turkish and practice. But of course, bringing it to today and making political comments because we had this, in order to look at the future. We had to stand up comedians to young women, amazing, which is a very different much more Western kind of sort of form. And then we had an amazing musician, a young person with a huge following. See, after us, today's the last day actually of our event. He's going on tour in the States. These are, it was a group of musicians from Northern Greece playing traditional Greek music but they have reinvented it, and he has done an amazing new way of his own in order to be a one man show. But so he plays his musical instruments, six or seven different ones of them different. And then he sort of records himself and creates these loops and an amazing so we had more than a thousand people coming in each of our events. And this is really, it does work. This was the proof that we had an audience that would never come to any political sort of, I mean we struggle to have people come to the political event sometimes. Unless of course there is an election or such things, but it actually worked and mixing these art forms. I think was the way is the way to go and look into the future. Thank you Danai. Anyone else like to comment? Add your two cents. Well if I can add something after Danai, in the meantime, can I? Go on please. Thank you exactly Danai. Thanks for telling us that because exactly what I trying to say, I mean the only way we have to invert the paradigm, the today paradigm that today the only important things is to appear in social even if you, I mean you don't do anything. You are not able to do anything but just an appearance it to create it to encourage curious people. And again, absolutely art in all sense is the only one of the most potential arm we we have and I'm proud to be part of DM and DM voice because yes we are the only movement in Europe working in this direction at the same time. In a network and connecting exactly all these tools. That's important basically. Thank you Patrice. Yeah, Simona. Simona. There you are. I managed to unmute myself. Hi everyone. I thought a lot about the question of our meeting tonight and my. Mentally, I think that art is a revolution in itself. It's revolutionary in the very idea of putting once all of once energies and passion and time in doing something just for the sake of creation just for free. And this idea of freedom and creation is revolutionary in in as much entails a consequence concerning power, the power of creation and the alienation of this power concerning freedom. The freedom not to sell once time and to be free to use it for creation for art. There's a series of revolutionary meanings and consequences that are just framed into a capitalistic frame when we think on how to use art. We live in a capitalistic frame so we can't help to play this game and to use art and creation for the spectacle and for getting more audience for our message and so on and so forth. But let's not forget that by using art this way we are playing into the we are playing the game of the spectacle the game of capitalism. And when playing this game, we confirm it. It's like you remember Bansky produced the tons of fake banknotes just for fun and for a ridiculizing money. These banknotes now have a huge value in real money. This is the capitalism and the spectacle frame absorbing the his gesture. So let's not forget that the real revolutionary Contribute of art is in pointing out the possibilities of men and the creation and the freedom that are inside these possibilities. Thank you, Simone, a barrel. Okay. Thank you, Mary. I think it would be helpful to consult three people in this regard. Rancy Badiou and Nicolas Bouriot because they have already proven the intensity of the relationship between art and politics. Since many years they are really reaching large publics with their writings and ideas. For example, in the politics of aesthetics, which is the most important book in this subject, he concludes himself that he considers his own work to be a poetic endeavor. And he also shows us that there is a critical dilemma. There is an antique idea that defines artwork as a common craft labor. This definition has also infiltrated into modernism. And through modernism into the cultural policies of conservatives or rightist parties. I think we have this, we have still this problem in our party policies, political party policies. And Rancy's aesthetic regime of art, we mentioned in that way, breaks down the terraces of the regimes which are infiltrating into the art. And says that new kinds of artwork create new communities and ways for people to relate to one another. And this gives the artist a possible relation to politics. We all know today that art contributes to politics such as critical thinking, gaining aesthetic perspective, guiding communities and maintaining peace and wisdom. However, it was also generally determined that artists should be influential in politics. But under the so-called traditional conservative conditions, artists upon entering politics cannot always sustain their position in politics as artists. So there is a kind of restriction to their position in the political influence. We know that the populist political party policies, Patricia just mentioned the situation in Italy. These party policies argue that artists should remain detached from the society by staying isolated and in their eclectic positions. And otherwise they would jeopardize both art itself and target the audience behind them. So I think opposing views defend that artists should set light to the society without being isolated from the rest or restricting their art to a certain political view. And they should hold art and university of art one step ahead so that they can speak to every individual in the society. As Danae just mentioned that art should reach to different profiles of the society. So if an artist is working on refugee crisis, on migration, on borders, what is his position? It's political, extremely political. And since 40 years I'm making political exhibitions. So art is already a political issue in this world. Thank you. Thank you very much for that Beraal, Juliana. Yes, I couldn't agree more. I think that if you're living in the world and you're expressing yourself through art, you will express what you experience. And if you experience a certain kind of society, you will see that in your art as well or in someone's art. What I wanted to add is that I think that art also has a very educational component to itself. Because I remember when I was younger, I would go to a concert and listen to bands who are political and they would bring a topic to me. Like you consume art as a young person and maybe you don't even realize in that moment what you're consuming, but it prepares you for what you will learn ahead in your life. And then you come back and you're like, oh, now I understand what this artist was talking about back then. And I think that this is a very, very key component to bring young people together, especially young people. Through art, through different forms of cultural events, because it's also easy for them to go into a topic through this playful setting. Because art is a very playful setting. And if I go to an exhibition as a person who is maybe not so political in their life, I get to talk about politics without being an expert on it, without being too involved. It opens the door for people to express themselves, even if they are not so highly educated on certain matters. And so I'm really happy that we have this platform in Diem. I think it's something that is exceptional that many other parties or organizations lack this perspective of including artists in their work and accelerating the art in that way. And I'm looking forward to see how it develops. I'm really happy that we are rebooting Diem Voice and we have rebooted Diem Voice. Thank you for that, Janus. Hi everyone. We of the left have a long tradition of interaction with art, which is very fruitful and very problematic at the same time. It's very fruitful because the artistic perspective has always been part of our understanding of society. Mark said, I'll put it in the chat when I find it, if I remember correctly something like art is a secret confession of humanity about its inner conflicts and at the same time something like it captures the mortal movement of time. So it's an existential thing. It captures truth in a way that science, whether it's political science or natural science cannot capture. So we've always had this appreciation, but at the same time we have the problematic relationship without which stems from socialist realism, the attempt to instrumentalize art and to make it something like a propaganda weapon. And that was always catastrophic. Because the moment you instrumentalize art, you deface it. And that's something that Diem Voice, from its very outset, set out not to do. To respect art as a bellwether of the society we live in, as a means by which to summon knowledge about the world, to find ways of expressing, of creating links with other movements, with other people, even with the enemy, even with the bastards of the world, because we do not want to assume that anybody has been born a bastard, even a fascist. We're not surrendering any human being to fascism, to the establishment. That's what it means to be humanist. And art is very useful at connecting even with a fascist. You can connect with a fascist through a song that, you know, this is possible to connect with them at a human level through discussion, right? And so Diem Voice for Diem has always been an essential part. You see, most other movements, including educational systems, especially in the West, treat art and culture as something nice to have on top of everything else. It's a bit like, you know, good manners in the military academy. So officers being trained in the military academy are taught good manners because they may have to be in the presidential palace, or in, you know, with the king and the queen, and they may have to be nice and they have to use the right fork and knife, right? But it's not essential in what they do at the battlefield. At the big battlefield, they have to butcher people. So it's additional. That's how culture is being treated by governments, by parliaments, by the establishment we live in. We don't do that. For us, you know, doing art is doing politics, doing humanism, understanding the world, acting upon the world. And let me finish off by saying that, especially today, when capitalism is transforming to something worse than itself, that's my view at least. In a way, yeah, Behan, you were going to say something. No, sorry, I thought you could go for it. Just one final sentence. My punchline, which is that art is the opposite of Facebook. Because when it comes to, you know, Ford Motor Company or Volkswagen, you have the manufacturing of an object on behalf of a subject. The subject is the driver, the consumer, and you have the Volkswagen or Ford producing an object for that subject. What is common between art and Facebook is that both in Facebook and in art. Okay, not only are you producing an object for the subject, but you're also producing a subject for the object. Okay, so when you're creating art, immediately you create an audience for the art, even if one didn't exist before. Similarly, when you create Facebook, you are creating not just a service for people, but people for the service, because people become instruments for Facebook to work. So in a sense, the worst in today's techno feudalism, which is Facebook for me, and the best, which is art, have something very, very much in common. Remember in the 1920s, the greatest problem with fascism is that it had a lot of common things with socialism. So a critique of the banking system, a critique of capitalism, a critique of finance, a critique of too much inequality. That's what Mussolini was saying, and he meant it. So similarly, Facebook and art share this capacity to produce the subject for the object and the object for the app. But in the same way that socialism was the greatest enemy of fascism, and in the end we lost. Art is the greatest enemy of Facebook. We must not lose this one. Thank you. Thanks, Janice. And someone on the chat is giving us some quotes, which might be quite interesting to add to this conversation. The first is, art should comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable. And another, which I quite like, speaks softly, but carry a big can of paint. Claudia. Yeah. I want to add something on Janice's sentence about what artists are also all about and why we have seen in the past, in the last one and a half years where the COVID pandemic rises up, we have seen how less people care about art and artists itself. So cinemas were closed, concert didn't take place, galleries were closed, everything was closed down, and the governments didn't care at all. You know, it was like, we helped Lufthansa in Germany, we helped the big companies with big subventions and the artists couldn't work. And this is also what artists need to have something to eat, right? So it's not just that we want, as I understand it, right? As we as DM are not just the organization or party who are talking through arts, but also talking for arts and artists and all the industry which is not big and solo self-employed people like me, for example, PR people, people on catering services and all that stuff. There are many, many people who are suffering about this pandemic because no one took care of them. And I think we can do also good things for those people to give them more a better place in the society as well. That's what I think we should do as well as the M25. Thanks, Claudia Rosemary. Yeah, I was terribly interested in Yanis saying how close aspects of fascism were to aspects of socialism in the 30s. And I do think it's right that today, again, part of the political battle is to take on the fascist forms of culture and ask ourselves what we need to do in a sense in reply. I think that the arts do this already incredibly richly. I have to say that having taught literature for many years and having been tranced by theater for many years and having been fascinated by film, which I think is the art form of our time. One of the things that becomes so clear if you love these things is that the central to it is the encounter with the other and the empathetic encounter with the other. The way that you can become other people other worlds, other positions, and you don't just find out what you have in common. You experience what it is to be different. You hang in the balance. Things can change for you as you read about and become intimate with these other worlds. So that reminded me of the marvelous night that we had at Central Saint Martin's in 2018, which had as its title, creativity must operate across borders. And we were doing it in the context of everyone's depression after Brexit. But actually, of course, there was a much larger context that we were also addressing, which is that fascism always has to create them and us. It has to create toxic polarizations. It has to create a monocultural us. We know who we are because we're all like each other. We stand together. We know what we want. We'll never change. And we're going to win that way. Win through force, win through violence. And then it creates the enemy, which is an existential threat to it. And then it plunges people into fear and division over these them and us toxic polarizations. But art, best art that I know does the opposite. It happens in the space between characters on a stage. It happens in the interaction with the story of the progress of a young man or a young girl like the 18th century novel. The rise into society and the move towards a happy ending, the quest where everything shifts and you shift with it. And at the middle of the novel, you never know where you are or what you think if it's a really good novel. And this in between us, this willingness to be uncertain, but to go for something better and to share it with people who you wouldn't thought you'd share it with. These are strengths that I think we can try and develop in our encouragement of artists and all the people around us. Thank you. Thank you for that Rosemary. Yanis. Okay, no. Not Yanis. Who's next? Anyone else want to speak? Just too long to find the electronical hands so just some random thoughts and taking a little bit from all of you and everyone has said really wonderful inspiring and important things. And also type I wrote down coming from all from your input is that of course art comes goes hand in hand with the beginning of humanity I mean it's a very deep need. A luxury as Yanis said that people are trying to present it as a luxury so that they can easily put it aside the politicians I mean and forget about the artists during a time of pandemic like we have just gone through. But it's the artist won't wait for someone to tell him yeah okay you can do that or no no now is not the time. It has the deep need. It's a matter of life and death for him or her to create what needs to come out into the air into into society. So it's not. And of course, art and creation is deeply political because all of our choices in all of our life the way we live our life and the way what art we make it doesn't have to do with the subject if it's a political subject. So with with every decision you make about how you go about creating an art form your work, which is a political part about I mean it can the subject may be a flower, or it may be an army but it's still political, it can be deeply political. And I think that what is crucial, especially in times of crisis in which we have been experiencing for the last decade and more of how crucial art is in these times is exactly because it unleashes the positive energy the positive forces in society as Rosemary and Yanis mentioned before. And in a sense for me, not, not only about the artwork itself or the artist himself, but the whole process like people working in a film, or in a theater play or helping a sculpture create his sculpture, his sculpture. They feel happy doing that. Whereas if they were. Making them happy working on an artwork on something creative. The forces the positive forces within our society are come to to to the surface. So, and this is something that reaches out to many, many more people than the artist themselves, or, you know, as much smaller circle but it expands and it's like a concentric ripples that that go throughout and they embrace the whole world and this is why it's so crucial in my view, at least. Yeah, for now this and please someone else take the floor and we'll come back. We have a few comments from our viewers. Sorry, I'm just looking at them on my phone here. Arts have become even more elite and common people feel even more distanced from them as with any product essential to live but made into a luxury. Another comment. Don't think of art as monolithic. It is as complex and varied as its source, the human psyche. Interesting comments. Who else would like to speak or feels motivated by something they've heard. Anyone else. Claudia was that Julianna. I think Claudia was faster than me. No, I want to say that I think that I mean we live in the capitalist world right so the problem is like in every other other industry with art you have also like this 1% of people who are famous and very rich. And then you have like lots more artists who are unknown, who will probably will always be unknown. So I think that being an artist under the circumstances is kind of well a struggle in itself. This is also something to not forget because besides those artists who are known and for our famous and bar invited often to to come somewhere. There are many more artists who whose art never see the day at the light of day, you know, and I think to encourage people to be artistic to make music or to to to try to live their life with art. This can transform our society because if if if working in culture and becoming an artist is something that is not depending on whether you survive or not. This can transform society. I think, much faster. But for now, people have to, you know, pay their life. So many people do arts, maybe as a hobby. Maybe they never become what they went what they want to become so I think giving also people a platform who will never, never had a chance to speak through the art to an audience. That I can imagine will be something good that the invoice can can help with also to find young new or not even young but artists were artists all their life and and their art was never seen by anyone. And really encouraging people to be themselves is what it is in the end. Thanks, Juliana Claudia. Yeah, the ration, the relation between salary and artwork is always difficult. That's something also Simona writes up before because it's like artists doing something what then I said, they enjoy their work right and what we all think is all work enjoy that doesn't fit. If you do something which is enjoyable, it shouldn't be work. It's a hobby. It's, it's entertainment. And this is something which always makes art kind of not being something you have to pay for. I mean, this is what I have seen in the past. It's very difficult to an artist who died really poor, who got famous afterwards and and nowadays we have artists who are suffering and probably they they will have the same and they are that they will rise up really big but they couldn't live a nice little life. And this should be also something we have to think about it. We should enjoy our work and though artists have to be sold should should have money as well. Yeah, and there are people in the chat that agree very strongly with you artists or workers to says Christiane. When was that issue forgotten. Next, it's rosemary. I just think that we may as well think about the aspects of that particular subject where we also have a string, because what happens of course with the arts with all the arts is the profit is up. If you commodify them, sell them sell the artists, turn them into celebrities make the remote stars. And after a while that becomes self defeating. So all these arts industries are looking around the young the new the fresh the authentic and the people who still really care about making art. They all go looking for talent. And meanwhile, if we progressives at any sense at all, we should be making sure that we're also encouraging these young artists who are the ones who really care about changing their societies and doing it with people they know, and making new communities new lives for themselves. So if we can skip. Thank God, the whole commodification process, we can go for something much more human. We just have to realize what it is that we're after. Thank you, Rosemary, Simone. Well, I disagree art shouldn't be work or either we must be very clear on what do we mean by work. Hard work. And depending on if it produces a value in the sense of something that is commodifiable that can be sold on the market, or just it produces something that nobody likes and nobody would buy. I remember watching a movie about Van Gogh and what strikes me in that movie is that the spectator knows that what this crazy man is producing will be something very valuable on the market. And so, and we all feel that people in the movie are stupid because they don't understand how much what this guy is producing values, but this is not the point. Van Gogh's production was not for the market. The goal is not, it can be sold. The goal is not to produce value in the sense of something that should be paid that should be commodifiable. It's a value in itself. It's a human creativity. And it doesn't depend on the fact that you produce something that the others would buy and you may even produce something that is very ugly and and bad. It doesn't matter. How do you disagree, Simona? I'm saying exactly the same thing. I agree with what somebody wrote in the chat. Oh, I see. Yes, I agree with you on the game's commodification. Yeah, war on the game's commodification. That's it. I totally agree with you. My point is, let's be very careful on the idea that an artist should be paid for his work. And so his work should be valued for his ability to be commodifiable. There is no measure of the value of an artwork, even if it's very bad. This is not the point. The point is human creativity and the being that comes to light when humans communicate to each other. And as Juliana says, people have to live. The point, the evolutionary value of art is exactly it's pointing to the fact that human value is not something that should be paid. And that human value is not in being able to be commodifiable. Thank you, Rosemary and Simona. No, sorry, Patricia. Thank you. Just keep following this very good debate. I would propose to have a new incoming one on this topic, maybe inviting also the artists we work with. I mean, I'm just thinking that, for example, Miltos Manetas with this incredible artistic commitment for our Juliana Assange campaign, but I'm sure that Nadia can add some other names for sure. Just to translate in practice, this could be a good point to translate in practice some steps we talked about before. Let's see, just a quick proposal. Thank you for the attention. Thanks, Patricia. Yeah, so I think that we should definitely have talks with artists and people from the art world, and that would be interesting. I'm not sure if this format is the best or if we can organize some discussions, but we can see about that. I just wanted a quick comment about, because I am an artist myself, and I think I may not have been very, very clear about what I said about enjoying what one does as an artist. Yes, maybe sometimes you enjoyed it, and maybe other times it's just extremely hard, and it's not a matter of enjoying what you do. It's more a matter, what I said is that it's a deep need, so it's something you cannot avoid. It will have to come out, so whether it comes out easy or like a birth, which is hard, but also it's extremely gratifying. It's this kind of feeling, I would say. It's something that you, it has to come into the world, so somehow it will find its way out. Sometimes this can be pleasant, others not. And this of course gives space for people saying that yes, artists don't need to be paid, or they do need to be paid. All this, of course, artists and the work needs, artists need to eat and they need to pay rent and they need to breathe, so yes, of course, somehow they need to be compensated, but no artist that makes a work in order to sell it. I mean, many do, unfortunately, but this is not what we're discussing here, I believe. And just a quick point about, I think, maybe Nadia can also say a last word about the future plans, but I'm thinking that all the things that were said here about reaching out to giving the voice to as many people as possible to express themselves, and also others to be in touch with what the creation process is, is what the employees aims to do, I think, in general. I think it's important to support artists themselves practically, and this is why I mentioned before what we have been doing with Meta, even practically with the launch and with the nomadic tour that we did. We commissioned artists of different forms and of different, yeah, as I said, from musicians to shadow theater players to circus artists, we mixed all the forms, we don't have high art and low art and popular art or more exclusive art. This is for everyone, and we try to support it in every way we can, and it's not always about money, it's about giving the opportunity and the platform for people to be able to express themselves, to feel part of this community, and for the people who are not creative themselves to be able to enjoy this and to have food for thought. Thanks Danai, Perel. Very quickly to Danai. I think we should, the voice should show very emblematic political work throughout the years. For example, when did you do this border work, which was very important and very early approach to the problematic situation we are living now. And secondly, I think SDM 25, we should approach art and politics also from the economic perspective, from the capitalist perspective, and maybe contact economists who really worked on the monopolies on artistic markets, because there are two monopolies, official and private monopolies, which really determine the market of art. Thank you, Bera. Does anyone else have any other comments before we hand over to Nadia to wrap it up? I can't see if you're raising your hands, not doing it virtually, if you're physically raising your hands, I can't tell. Okay. Let me just say very briefly that it's meetings like this that help DM 25 stand out amongst movements. No more needs to be said. I concur. It's been very, very insightful and fascinating. Thank you, all of you. Nadia. Over to you to wrap up. I want to thank you all for all this discussion. We're going to read here again and again this discussion for inspiration. But basically, I think we all we're all thinking on the same looking at the same direction as Saint-Exupéry said once. And the more we do the thing we want more is to get have more and more artists involved in voice so we can build up together this project, because it's not something that we want to build from the top to the bottom. It's members ideas that will have will give us the ideas for projects and make them happen. So we, you can always write to us on our email voice at DM 25.org and help us please build up this huge great project. Thank you, Nadia. Thank you again to the to the panel and thank you to all of you out there for watching. One last little reminder, which is something related, but indirectly, if you would like to join us on a panel like this, if you would like to be a member of DM 25's coordinating collective, now is the time to apply. The deadline is August the fourth. If you think you've got the time and the skill set and you're the sort of person who wants to help coordinate a growing progressive movement with a very healthy interest in art that puts art first. Then please do apply. There will be a link shortly in the YouTube chat. We'll just go to DM 25.org to to find the application form. That's it. Thank you again. Thank you to the panel and.