 I've made a little scoring point here. So I'm aware that my handwriting is classified as cruel and unusual form of punishment, so I apologize in advance. But who would like to go first? Group 3. You can just paste this. You already got it. So we're going to talk to us. So we went one by one first through the topic of the quality of the statement and then through the quality of the vision and tried to mark it in red and blue what actually works and what doesn't work with the PDF scan of whatever kind of certificate. And what we found out regarding the distinction, the distinct element of the quality is that it really depends. So if you look at a scan document of only the certificate, this one pager that says, okay, you have completed that course, that course, and that course, and that is added up to a micromaster it is not sufficient, so it does need some complete information. In regarding the medium, it additionally needs metadata and that simply is not the case for a scanned document, so that definitely is an issue. Regarding the authenticity, we'd say the verification of such a statement of none of the scan itself, but of the certificate behind it, should be quite clear, but it's not that easy to revoke. So that definitely is not a better solution if you use a different medium. And we also said, I think none of us did ever Photoshop a certificate, but Timothy was talking a lot about it, so I'm not sure about it. I never said I would do it in Photoshop or anything. In theory, it's quite easy to fake. So I mean, if it's a scanned PDF or it's basically an image behind it, it is potentially easy to fake and all of us have heard of such cases before. So again, the medium doesn't really serve that need and it could be the least we better solve with other medium. And we do believe, though, that it is very accessible because the kind of certificates that we had in our minds are really nice and nice format. They are well understood with basic information via a broad audience and it's just, you know, it's just broadly used. Everyone knows what a certificate is and if it is simple enough, it is very accessible. Again, depending on the information that is attributed to the certificate. So if you have one paper, it is very accessible. If you have 30 pages behind it that explain all the elements of the certificate, it becomes more difficult to understand. And we, regarding the medium, we love paper certificates and we had a case from a colleague who had just left is that they issued open batches to students and then they asked, can we also have a printed certificate for it? We could open that. Yeah, I mean, that's really, it's just a reality that for the audience or for target groups, for learners, for many of us in this room, of course it's nice to have an endorsement on LinkedIn, but it's also nice to just have, you know, a nice paper case certificate that you can print out and that you can easily share. So that is just a reality, believe me. We believe in it. Exchangeable, pilot, do you like the smell of that? Oh, I really like the smell, please. PDF scans are not really exchangeable in the kind of exchangeability that we define here for the quality criteria. It is not easily convertible, but it is not really modular. You can put one certificate next to the other certificate, but that is not the kind of modularity that we would believe in. What we did talk about, what is quite interesting is through recognition, it can be exchangeable. So if you submit a certificate for formal recognition or for recognition within the labor market, it can actually, through the process of recognition, become exchangeable. And it is, we had that before, it is the core foundation of trust, such an easily understandable certificate, so that there was a positive side of the exchangeability of such a medium. That's like money laundering, that's how it happens. Yeah, yeah, true, true. Yeah, exactly. You don't know where it comes from but in the end it was just a Photoshop certificate but through recognition, no one can trace it back anymore. That's why we need to develop a different standard as well. Last one, portability, it is, and that is like really, just a really positive aspect of a scanned PDF document. It is owned by the learner, the learner does have a scan on the computer. I can have a scan in my phone, but I can also have a nice piece of paper on my wall. I can take it into the, I don't know, somewhere into Sahara and still have the certificate with me, although I don't have electricity anymore because it is digitally and physically portable. And we believe that still remains a really important aspect of any medium and that is a challenging case when you look at all the digital solutions that are alternatives to it. Thank you. What do we do now? Can I stay in the area? Any comments? Yeah, comments, yeah. The medium, yeah, the time over which the medium has to be available, it's very important for legal reasons. Yeah, if I am an issuer, as a university for example, an issuer for a certification, macro, micro, yeah, then for me as a student I can lose the certification paper, yeah, and then for applying for a job or what, yeah, then I have to prove or I can be asked for proving a certified certification, yeah, and then if I lost it, then the issuer is responsible in front of the law for being able to making the certification approved again. So if I have proof like this, printed graphs, this is much, much more durable than perhaps the open batch system, I have nothing against open batch, yeah, but so... I'm not sure, I wouldn't agree on that, because I work with refugees, and that's a very simple case that also I'd expect, and you guys are always repeating this, I work with refugees who came to Germany like since 2015, trying to access higher education, and their problem was, of course, Syrian universities would, or wherever they come from, universities from war-to-arm countries would have been legally responsible for storing the information for storing the certificate, but I simply didn't, because of unforeseen circumstances, so to say, and for that it would have been much easier to have it all digitally. So the traditional certificate that has to be stored also within a certain institution alone is definitely not sufficient. What is the good part? I didn't say this, yeah. I say you can have something on digital storage, but then you have to be sure that this certification proof is available for a very long time. I agree, yeah. All I will say is that we, in our framework, we think of this as a partner verifiability, so you need to be able to verify the, let me read it exactly now, the verify when, where my home was issued, which means there's an original record of the transaction and the certificate should be reissuable in the paper versus digital. I actually agree with you. Digital is not a solution to all things, and the reason paper is so common still with this, because paper is a really, really good technology for its purpose. And honestly, most of the digital technology, including open-legitism, hasn't sold, hasn't created a big enough advantage of our paper to move it. There are people who argue, including some other reports I wrote that blockchain is a solution or not, but part of the reason we wrote this is we realized that everybody's going and talking about that this is the new technology that will revolutionize credentials, and nobody had even agreed to set up principles that qualify as a revolution. So to some extent, this is a process of going back to basics and saying, okay, now, if you can build a digital thing that will do all that, then digital will be clearly superior. If it's there yet, I would actually agree with you. I'm not 100% sure it is. There's five technologies which I think have a lot of potential, but all of them are in early beta phase, and maybe something like this helps as a guide to the way. But we're also here to hear from you, so who would like to go next? Please. So I do not report any more about the exact delivery of the... So you had a new certificate offered by the Red Cross and history doesn't work on that. Yeah, thank you. So then we figured out that in a way with this description, precision, then somebody who had followed and made all the activities in the MOOC could receive something like this, and this is quite empty. Okay, this is the Blue Cross. Okay. And so even if there is the date, but this is on the original MOOC certificate, so our group say this is not enough for the value of the quality of the statement here. This is more less empty. So then we say, okay, more about... We have to have more about the... Perhaps I might... Perhaps we have to have more about the MOOCs, especially about the first line, a role, so distinct, yeah. So we have something... We have to have something more specific, more identifiable. And measurable, yeah. Skills, facts, experiences, okay. And lead to this. Also, quite sure also to make it authentic. Then quite sure also the biggest point we focused on was about the traces that were collected for making the distinction authentic. Yeah. And from a more technological perspective, then okay, we take what we know about the open batch system and we have pro and negative points. With the positive points, we see really the portability as effective and also the accessibility. As far as we know, a batch with the open batch system is not editable in fact by the owner, yeah. So if the issuer is doing well his work, the batch is... It's authentic. Yeah, it's authentic. Authentic. Solid, yeah. But for the negative points, then we are doubtful about the verification of the issuer. As far as we know in open batch, I can be an issuer for a basketball team. Please do not take my batch for a basketball team. Okay, so this is... Thank you. This is a reference to our Blue Cross group. No? More than questions, I think it's a comment perhaps from the perspective of users. I mean, we're all used to using an online service, whatever it is. We go there, we click, we use it day after day. On one day we go there and it's not there anymore because the company's bus or it changed there in the product cycle or whatever. So there's a slight anxiety with an online batch or something. Because if I have my certificate, I put it in a folder, put it on the shelf, it's always going to be there. That's my house burns down. And there's that worry that maybe some stay. Even if it's not directly revoked, it could disappear. The open batches themselves are essentially image files. So I mean, theoretically... Yeah. My personal problem with open batches is they're images with embedded metadata. I know plenty of people who can't even tell you how to measure width by height pixels, let alone access embedded metadata and other data. So it needs special software, basically, if you want to make it useful. But it is portable. I mean, you put it on a USB stick and cross the world with it. You can sail across the world with it. I mean, with it in your pocket. So I mean, for me, this is a very personal opinion, of course, high on portability, but a little less so. And then accessibility, it depends. It loses accessibility in that sense. But... I think we have a historic perspective. I think that we're in a time of great change. What happens now is that we use a lot of paper and we use a lot of digital too. And I think in 20 years' time, the biggest place you see this in legal context is where it goes to the bank. Everything is digital. Yeah. And so between two realities. I mean, and they even print out papers telling you, please do not print this. You can be sustainable here. I mean, you are right as a perspective. I actually, just because I wanted to try it, I became the new resident of Estonia a couple of weeks ago because I wanted to try their digital nation. And I mean, it's impressive. You can sign up for e-citizenship completely digitally. You're verified digitally. You would have to go to their office once to get the digital key and that you can open up a bank account, start a company, register your taxes and not one piece of paper is ever used anywhere for anything. They've actually really built it. And I mean, that is the direction we're going. And what I will say about open badges, I mean, if you look at the design of open badges, considering what was in 10 or 15 years ago, open badges is by far the most significant effort in the form of digital credentials that has been created yet. When I look at this, I argue that maybe it is a definitive effort but it is definitely the best anyone has had so far. But our traditional university group, my god, your big powerful group. Why me? Because it's yours. Why mine? Why mine? You're the most. You speak and I'll tell you. The secretary knows much better. First of all, I would like to point out the fact that we didn't have any of the from the organization with us. So we are not that colorful, because someone left this on the team and we didn't know what was this for. So we have the secretary in all fashion ways. Well, we have a very nice discussion about this. The first one is like our classical way to show our degrees, university degrees. It's not exactly portable because they are normally in big papers. So it's not easy, but then if you have to send in out a new scandal, so what's the validity and the trust behind this? And universities are accepting this just to accept you as a master's student or whatever. So it is portable and it's not portable, it's not trustable. We have talked about it's not accessible either. And so the solution for this, I want to go pros and cons and enhancements. We were talking about creating a digital signature from the institutions. When we are by the institution by the learner and the common repository in the European Union or Worldwide. So we do have the certificate ourselves. The institution has the certificate and also it is somewhere else so employers for instance can access this and say proof that this employee really has the certificate. It's not accessible in a very classical way because you can send a postcard using the very old fashioned way but as you only have this copy which is very expensive at least here in Spain you have to be around 200 years when you get your certificate. You are not going to send this the original one so it's not exchangeable. So the digital format will be the option. This digital signature and proving that it is really by the institution. It is authentic. It is true. This is 100%. If it is the original one and you don't are part of the mafia so you have someone that is going to create very nice copies. I also highlight the situation with living in Spain. I don't know about this university with politicians because if you are living in Spain I would tell you many politicians has gotten some PhD or master's degrees and it's not true. They didn't really did the master's nor did the PhD. So authentic. It's authentic. What is behind? We don't really know. On the other hand the system obviously allowed for it to be detected since you now know that. Exactly. Even though it was originally fake so when somebody tried to verify it it was behind the process. It was verifiable and it turned out not to be true. Exactly. So it is authentic and verifiable but easy to fake. Exactly. It depends on the interest of the third party maybe it's not that trustable in this way either. The third party has learned to trust you. Arguably until that person became a politician no one was concerned whether he was pure or not. Famous. So they started to look into his history. We had an interesting discussion about this so we thought that in general the certificates are very good although they have