 Good afternoon, everybody. Happy New Year. Thank you for joining me for another edition of Condo Insider 2024. I am so excited to have with me, Wendy Utsui, who is with the Department of Commerce and Consumer Affairs in the RICO office. She's an attorney, SAP attorney in the office, and she's going to talk, and she also lives in the condo so she can relate to this issue. She's going to talk to us today, educate us a little bit more about the differences when you can use a handyman and when you cannot and you need to really go with a licensed contractor. And there is a lot of protection as you get when you're using a licensed contractor versus just a handyman. And then there's also types of jobs that you have to go the contractor route. So, Wendy, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for inviting me. I'm very honored that you were able to do this with it for us. So I know you live in a condo and you did a recent article on KHON about contractor versus handyman. So let's explain that because not everybody has probably seen that. So let's go through some of the basics that on the differences between the two and when you can and cannot use it. Okay, so, yeah, I mean, I think the big thing is people think it's just a small job. We can get a handyman to come in. We don't need a big contractor to do it. But there are limitations on when you can use someone who is not a contractor to perform work. One of the requirements is that the work doesn't require a building permit. And the other requirement, the second requirement is that the aggregate cost of the project is less than $1,500. And when we say aggregate, that means it has to include labor and materials. And aggregate, it's interesting because it's not just the project cost, but we look at is it being done piecemeal if you can't just piecemeal it out because we're going to aggregate it included all together to say it's one project. Previously, I've had a case where there was a situation or a condominium where they hire the same person to perform small jobs in five different units and piece out the cost for each unit in separate invoices. But we said he did all of that work within three days. That's one project and the total cost for all of those units together exceeded $1,500. So they needed a licensed contractor at that time, not just a handyman to perform what they believed were small jobs. So when you talk about aggregate and what if the two sides step the rule, what if they come up with the idea of, but what if we bought the materials? Well, it doesn't matter who buys the materials. It's the cost of the materials that are used in the project, as well as the labor costs. So, you know, a lot of times you're like, well, no, but he didn't pay for the paint that separate the labor itself was only $1,499. And you say, no, but the paint is included in that. So you can't side step it by someone else paying the materials. And even saying that materials are free, we are going to look at the retail value of those materials because that's what the court is doing. I never knew that. What about when, God, it was just the tip of my head. They are so you can't piecemeal it, right? So if you're doing a bathroom renovation vanity, new toilet, that's one whole job you can do like the toilet this month and then do the vanity next month is still considered one job. Yes, because it's all in one location, we look at it particularly if it's the same person doing it. Now when you say a bathroom renovation that does bring up the topic of what kinds of work can a handyman not do it all. And there are in this state, we have what's called dual licensing, not every state has what's called dual licensing, but we have licenses that are required for certain kinds of work that can affect the health, safety and welfare of the public. And three big licensing areas. There's four, but the fourth is pesticides and I'm hoping no one is just out there spraying pesticides. But the big three that we have the first one and I didn't talk about this before in the what's the law podcast is elevator mechanics. The second one is electricians and the third one is plumbers. So let me go and let me talk about each of these sections in elevator mechanics. It's more than those guys who come when the elevator stops or they're putting in a new elevator or the escalators not working. It's any time that anything is being done to the interior cab. Not that if you're, if you're putting up a poster or you're just cleaning it. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about suddenly decided to change the panels from whatever fake wood to being mirrors. You can't just do that you need to have an elevator mechanic present and probably doing that work is also when you are doing things like putting in a camera. You need to have an elevator sound alarms into your, into your elevators you do need to have an elevator mechanic present for that. So that is something that if you are thinking of doing that something to alters the cab of the elevator. You cannot just get your employee or a handyman to do it it's actually very clear even an employee cannot be doing it has to be an elevator. So besides the walls that would include the floor. It does specifically state that if you're going to put carpet on the floor and you're just adhering it to the floor, you that's fine. But if you are pulling up tiles or whatever is the base and replacing it, you need an elevator. Okay, because I know that in my condo we put down those rugs for when people are moving in and the walls to protect it. That's fine that's not changing the cab itself. Okay, so anything that changes the injury of the cab, or I don't know why you would be in the shaft to let any of those things. Okay, and that includes also some of the electronic lifts for garages you know if you have one of those garages where the car goes in and it gets lifted up. This also is included in elevator mechanic work as well. So, you're safer calling the executive officer and checking to see does this work require an elevator mechanic, or if you already have an elevator mechanic maintenance guy you can probably ask them and they will tell you. The second area that you cannot just have anyone performing the work is electrical work and electrical work is more than just pulling wires through the walls. It's actually wider in scope electrical work is having to do with any conductor material device fixture apparatus or appliance that fastens to a building a structure or premises. So, let's say you want to put in a new air conditioning unit, and it's not just plug it in and air conditioning works there needs to be wiring that is put into place or you're going to move a light switch or. You need to have an electrician perform that because you are working with electricity and electrical wires that's not something that we would want to have anyone doing without the proper experience because you can set fires. I have had situations where someone says oh I can do that that's easy enough to do and appliance catches fire or a family is eating dinner and the chandelier above them suddenly pops and the wiring that goes to the wall catches fire and they have a black line so. Not ideal, you want to have an electrician perform the work. The third major area where we require that there be a license, not necessarily contractors license, but this one is plumbing a plumbers license and this gets very confusing for a lot of people I have gone to court and even the judges have been surprised at what I've been telling them. Plumbing is more than just changing the pipes. It has to do with all the pipes, all the fixtures all the appliances that have to do with plug and they're very clear about this, anything in conjunction with sanitary drainage storm drainage and venting systems and portable water supply systems. So, you know, anytime you're getting your new refrigerator with the ice cubes, then you're going to have to have a water line that attachment to the water line or putting in the water line that has to be a plumber that that's that. And I have a recent story, my father got a new refrigerator, and he was looking around and the cheapest place was at Lowe's but Lowe said you need to get a plumber. So when our guys bring it in they install it. They the plumber unhooks it and hooks it back up. And he said well that's a problem who thought of that that's a terrible. And then he said okay I'll go with the more expensive place and they say I don't need a plumber the guys came in to install it when they unhooked it the pipe broke from the wall, and suddenly he needed a plumber. So, I won that round with my father, but the law is also very specific now you can perform emergency work because plumbing you always know there's always a backup drain, or your toilet is running. Or, you know, got to read your toilet breaks because that does happen as well. And you have water gushing everywhere so you can perform emergency plumbing work in your primary residence, it cannot be your renters location it cannot be somebody else's it has to be your residents. And the emergency repairs can include changing any pipes moving around any pipes, you can turn off the water, but they can't be suddenly oh no we need to put in these new pipes that's not allowed. Additionally, you can't do work on your own on anything requiring backflow devices and they're very specific it says it includes heaters, water closets which are toilets, dishwashers and garbage disposal units. So you see it at home repair and home improvement places that you can buy your new toilet you can buy a garbage disposal and do the replacement yourself they tell you that like, sure you can do it look there's videos we can help we can give you instruction. But under the Hawaii laws, you are not supposed to do that on your own you are supposed to hire a licensed plumber. Replacement of toilet seems easy enough. But you really should get a licensed plumber to do that kind of work. So I was trying to explain to someone what a backflow was. And, and I had told her I said, you know, like, we have a really big, it's like 125, it's a big fish tank. So, we would take the hose bring it in turn it on and let the suction go back out and I said it. The problem is it takes two people to do that. I said somebody's got to be at the hose to turn it on. And then when it's at a point to turn it off, they have to turn it off and unhook it. Because the water will suction back into the plumbing into your line. So now you got dirty water going back in there. Correct. And that's the reason we have backflow. Yeah. So, so it got to the point where I'm like, I'm trying to do this. I'm getting the pump. Yeah. And it's one of those things where people don't think about it, but it's to ensure that there is no messing with your potable water. We don't want people drinking dirty water of any kind. We certainly don't want it going back into the main system, even not just your apartment or your condo, but to everybody's system. And I can imagine that flushing that system would be a very expensive fix. We have had situations where they have hired on the recommendation of a building manager, the guy who, you know, she hangs around and he's done some small jobs. Also she kind of do it for you. And I had one case where he went into fix a slightly leaking pipe and it became a big leaking pipe and the leak went down about five or six floors. And with the cost of drying out the floors and the units below with additional costs, I believe was a hundred thousand dollars in damages plus. And then I know in my own condo building, one day I heard the alarm go off and it ended up that on a lower floor, a guy was, I don't know what he was doing, but he was doing some kind of plumbing work and broke his hot water pipe. And the hot water was flowing freely out of his apartment. And the guy across the hall was asleep and woke up because he could hear water lapping in his apartment and he took a step. He was in about an inch of hot water. And luckily he was at that. They were at the end of the hall and it was going down the fire escape on the far right. I looked over and it was like a waterfall, but it was a waterfall of hot water. So it was very dangerous. I don't actually know what happened because I was like, thank goodness I'm above them. But I'm assuming that was not a cheap fix as well. Yeah. And I don't like, um, one time I bought up, you know, the window ACs and I had bought the big one and I didn't notice the plug is different. Right. And, um, so I was telling somebody, I go, I goofed. I forgot to look at the plug. It doesn't plug into the regular outlet. And, um, so someone goes, well, you can get an adapter and it would take it from 110 to 220. I go, no. That sounds scary. I'm assuming that it's like all the warnings of the Christmas trees. Yeah. Because you got to see some little surges around that. I go, no. So when I ended up putting it in, I ended up coming electrician and have them redo it and actually install a separate, you know, separate line. Yeah. But yeah, I understand it's always problematic to have people call an electrician or a plumber and, you know, my friends ask me and I can't tell them who's a good plumber electrician partly because of my job, but I see mostly the bad ones. So I also would, I can tell them not to hire. But we do tell people, I mean, I understand I've had the emergency where you're like, I'm calling whoever's going to answer in the phone book or on Yelp, you know, whoever has good stars and my call, you know, but if you have time, we do ask people to get three, you know, three of the licensees to kind of look at the situation and and give you a proposal for the cost of the fix and you choose from there because, you know, you don't, you sometimes you're like, oh, that's expensive, but everyone says it's expensive. Then, you know, that's how much it is. But we can get recommendations from family and friends. That's also the good way to go. But the next door app is good for, it's almost like another Yelp. Oh, that's I've seen that. Yes. Your neighbors in your neighborhood that you put out a word here. I'm looking for license electrician to do this, this and this. And usually you can get some recommendations, which is really good. You know, I do know that in my condo and I've seen in my friends condos that there's always the board with the little business cards and recommendations on who to call. I will let you know that my investigators and I do check those for license. And we do sometimes visit them. So there is a, you know, when we do look at that, and when we have a case where someone has recommended that they use a certain electrician or plumber and they're not actually holding a license. So if they are a real estate agent or anyone with any kind of a real estate license, we do sometimes look at them for aiding and embedding on license activity. So just so you know that is always a possibility, which is why we recommend that when you are looking for someone to do work that you can check with either the contractors license board, the electricians and plumbers board or elevator and mechanics board. We can ask them does this work require license on the DCCA RICO website. You can check 24-7 if someone is licensed. You can also look for complaints as well as we do have a line that you can call in and the number is on our website as well if you want to talk to someone. But otherwise, you know, there really is an excuse anymore for not checking a license because it is available online all the time. Yeah, because I had this guy was an electrician and I was actually looking for I think a plumber. Oh, no. Plumber I didn't know because the hot water heater went out. Right. So the recommendation was this guy and he goes, well, yeah, I can do that. I can put your hot water heater in. But then he never came back to do the other part of it. We know it's the overflow. Right. I think so not to hire somebody else to put in the overflow because he never came back. Like when are you doing that? You know, after a few times of texting, he can be asked to do that. So I'm like, never again. You know, I'm just called a plumber. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm in an older building and I know when I was looking to purchase my place, my real estate agent brought in her quote unquote handyman who I was like, okay, I didn't ask questions. I wasn't in this job yet. And he did a bunch of stuff that now I kind of wonder, was he actually licensed to do some of that? And I don't ask too many questions. The other thing I forgot to mention, the one thing that you don't need a license for is fixing a flood drain. You know, those sneak the guys who sneak your toilets, your drains. A license is not required for that. Which thank goodness, because those people are well needed a lot of times to come in. Yeah. Yeah. But I do want to caution with some people that are in older buildings. Yes. They can get that can look us through. I know we were, well, I mean, my neighbor and I are back to back. And so our bathtub drains are late. And we were having a lot of trouble. It was, it's too gross to describe. And so his friend said, oh, I can help snake that. And I thought, okay, he started to snake it and rust was coming up through the drain. And I said, please stop. So I do know that you do have to be careful. It is good to get the guys who do this all the time to come in and snake the drains. And even my drains have stymied some of them. They're like, wow, that, that's a tough train. Yeah. I have an old time plumber. I mean, plumber his whole life, you know, I have the almost confidence in him that something in my studio, the bathtub drain is really slow. Yes. Went from underneath. And he goes, you know, I can see something in there. And, you know, the drain pop ups. I've never had one since I bought it. So he goes, I'm not part, I'm not sure if the part of it's in there. He goes, but man, we're going to have to break open the wall and blah, blah, blah. And I know our pipes are old. They're original from 1960. Oh, no, you are not. I don't care. That's going to be a condo issue. I don't want you to get in there and try to fix it. And then it gets worse. Right. Me. But I did have a discussion with my condo about a pipe in the wall and they said, well, it's within the walls of your apartment. So it's your pipe. And I said, so I will stop the water through that pipe and none of my neighbors in the whole column will have water. So is it still my pipe? But that's a whole other disagreement in there. Yeah. And that's a big confusion with a lot of condos. Whose pipe does it belong to? Yeah. Because your water pipe also is the same pipe that serves other units. Yeah. The whole column of us, right? Same like the sewer. It joins, right? Yes. You know, it's a lot of different things. It varies between condo and it varies between, within the same condo, it varies between the board. But it means that, you know, so it's a delicate thing. So that's why sometimes I go, no, I'm not dealing with it. I'll wait till. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting with living in a condo. I understand a lot more about the situations that I see. And I've learned a lot more about. And I understand the need to look at your contractors and the types of contractors that come in to do the work. Because there's a lot of people who they're a contractor and they're doing some kind of work and you ask them, can you do this additional work? And the scope of their license may be. Not that that kind of work may not be in it. And so we look a lot of times, particularly with bathroom renovations and kitchen renovations, you do have to have plumbers and electricians come in to do some of that work. They can't just perform all that work themselves. And a lot of times when we see problems, it's because those guys weren't called in to do it. A lot of times bathroom renovations when they change from a bathtub to a shower or shower to a bathtub and there's no shower pan. I'm usually like, there's no plumber involved in that work. And that's, that's a big problem for us. So. Yeah. Yeah. Especially the bathtub converting to a shower. Yes. They're doing this proper shower pan. Yeah. Because there was one that the tiles actually were cracking. The grout lines were kind of getting unstuck. Right. The end made the water leak down below. And usually the person who figures it out first is the person below. Because they say, why, why can I see you showering above me now? So I do know that my neighbor upstairs was doing a bathroom renovation and every day afterwards I just kept looking for a water spot. Just praying that there would be no water spot because that is a big problem is when there's renovation work above you, you know that you're going to be the one to find it first. Yeah. And I know some plumbers when they're doing work like that, they will let the water run for a long period of time. Yes. Just to make sure there's no leaks. Yes. You know, before they actually close the walls up or whatever they're doing. They want to make sure there's no leaks before they close anything up. If they find it and then they got to rip it all out again. Yeah. The good ones will. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, oh, I remember now what I was thinking about earlier. The dollar amount for handyman changed a few years ago, right? Yes. In 2019. Yeah. So is that what, $1,500? $1,500. It used to be $1,000, but it also used to include it is just labor and materials. Oh, okay. $1,500. Yeah. I think it was too difficult to figure out the taxes depending on, you know, is it general excise? Is it income? You know, it's a whole thing. Yeah. So, yeah. And I think they, it had been $1,000 for like 20 years. Yeah. But very long time, even at $1,500 is, it's pretty low. Yeah. It is low. It is, you know, considering the cost of paint and wood, you know, it fixing a fence can be expensive. So it is, it is hard to stay underneath that, that amount. Yeah. And even though some people would want to stay, you know, want to do a job under that $1,500, it didn't work. I mean, I tried to just replace a small piece of pipe for my fence. It was, can I be under $1,500? No, just the pipe wall cost you that much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think there was a lot of discussion about the, how much the amount should be. And that's just sort of what they decided. I think they're thinking, those are, really you want your handyman to be doing some of the minor jobs. And, you know, the more, the bigger the job gets to be, then the more you start to suspect that maybe you need to have some specialized skills and they want to have those tested and get that license. So, you know. And you want that security of that license, the professionalism, you know, and, and they got to know the rules too. You know. Right. And they are required to have insurance for both their employees, which is good for you, workman's comp as well as their business insurance and bonds for the projects themselves. If you have a problem and you're going to file a lawsuit against them for whatever reason, if you notify the contracts recovery fund, you have a chance of recovering from there. If you can't recover from the contractor themselves. So there are a lot more protections that way. Yeah. And if they're an actual bona fide company, they do go through OSHA trainings. I believe, you know, so they have that additional training like elevator. I mean, elevator ladder. Right. And hooking on on a roof, hooking on on a roof. Yeah. That's the big thing because I've seen some roof people without the, without the attachments. Cause even for my roof, when I guess we done, I go, can you put the little hooks on there when you guys do the redo the roof? I like why I go, I go on my roof every once. So I'll just take a look. I even have the safety hardest. It comes in pink now. Oh, nice. Yeah. It was in pink. I went, Oh, this is cool. Yeah. I questioned a lot of people when they get solar panels because you are supposed to go up and review it and clean them once in a while. It is a part of the contracts. And most people didn't read that part or don't think they're ever going to do it, which is why they, there are no companies that will go and you pay them to clean your solar panels, which is a fact as well. Cause I would definitely be paying that. I don't care if there's a pink harness. Okay. So I think we're nearing close to our end. Any other passing words for our words of wisdom for our condos, especially our board of directors. Um, you know, really the dues and delts, um, that they, um, need to remember, I always tell people, I said, if you take the shortcut, it's going to bite you in the butt. That's right. I do think, uh, you know, I want to remind everyone that even if you've used a contractor before to check their license, if you're going to use them again, uh, it's easy enough to check it. Sometimes people have lost their licenses due to loss of insurance or for some other reason. So you do want to make sure that they are currently licensed when you are hiring them to perform work. And if you start to have trouble with them, I would also check again that licensing status because we have had people who are companies that have fallen out of, of having a license during a project, which is why you start to not see them or they don't come back. Uh, so that you're on notice that well, you're going to have a big problem. So. And also when you, sorry to interrupt you, when you look it up on your website, you can also see their complaint history, right? Yes, that's, there's actually two things you can do is look at their, whether or not they are properly licensed and you can also see their insurance companies if you need to. And you can also see if they've had any prior complaints or current complaints. So, uh, it is, it is a good website to check. Uh, it's very easy to do. I would take that into consideration when you're going to hire someone. Um, if someone is recommending someone to you to use for any kind of work again, I would check their license. That's something that I check regularly. And I encourage everybody to do. Okay. Thank you, Wendy. I appreciate your time. I appreciate it. And I really appreciate DCCA and the Rico division. Um, to keep everybody on their toes. It complies on their toes. Um, and I hope to see you again. Yeah. I hope to see you like not, not in any bad situation. Hopefully. Thank you so much and have a good weekend. You too. Bye. Bye.