 Dave please come on up please give Dave a warm welcome. Thanks Linda. Thanks for an awesome presentation Andrew I wish I'd had that book ten years ago because I've had to do a lot of this from first principles as as you'll see there's some sort of hard one thinking behind all of this and you'll see the red pill and the blue pill up there anybody a fan of the Matrix as a movie yeah which pill do you want to take the red the red pill is the one you want to take so that's the conversation between Morpheus and Neo where Neo says well I'll take the red pill and go down the rabbit burrow and see how far we can go with all of this so half an hour of pretty fast paced IT operating model stuff so I'm not going to labour the point too much about digital because there's been so much fantastic content on that over the last couple of days it's all happening is all I could say about that and IT managers could be forgiven to be a little bit overwhelmed yeah so the the pace of technology change is accelerating away from our management capability because we're relying on principles and practices maybe from last century still so so we've we've got a little bit to catch up on and if I talk to some research analysts they might tell me that by model is an answer and it is an answer of course it's a it's an operating model it's an approach but it kind of misses the point of the transformational opportunity that's in front of us at the moment so we've just divided up into the cool funky team that gets into all the new stuff and then we've got the old legacy people with the legacy systems is kind of one of the implications of this which I don't particularly like and I was there and a few of you probably got enough gray hair to remember the y2k thing right so we're all there back in 99 2000 reinventing our IT function around e-commerce and also trying to get rid of you know watch out for this Armageddon event that was going to happen on my birthday actually was 31st of December I can't remember what age it was I'm trying not to remember probably so Armageddon that didn't happen and then we did the e-commerce thing at the same time but the real question I think was well how do we change faster how can we become more adaptive as an IT function to meet the needs of the business so how do we change faster and what does the destination look like so I guess we could look back to our traditional frameworks and and and sort of look for guidance there but I don't want to I don't want to label the point too much but most of these frameworks were written in the last century for last century's problems and so some things in there are timeless like incident problem change release config a lot of the taxonomy of the modern IT function is derived from principles from managing bureau computing in the 80s and 90s so there's some timeless concepts there but netflix amazon and google don't use ital they use something that they've created to match their own business models yeah so they've gone with what is going to work for them and they moved away from a call-centric model you try and get a phone number off any of their websites you'll struggle to find that they've got some sort of omni-channel model but they drive it out of a continuous operations sort of idea rather than well when things break they'll somebody will call a service desk and will have n levels of support behind that so they're the mental model of IT is quite different um COVID for example as another example of a framework I was quite excited when that came out plan build run monitor and we've got the little hat of ISO 38500 sitting on the top of that pretty cool but very useful as an as an audit tool or as a controls framework that sits with an operating model it's not an operating model itself although it tries to do a lot of the the functionality of an operating model in giving you racy charts the the KPIs the connections between processes up and down the lifecycle it does some pretty cool stuff but it's not an operating model ISO 20000 yep that's uh that's currently being redeveloped uh and various actually one of the things I would observe is that there's nothing wrong with good old fashion project management it still has a place particularly if you're standing up a new platform building a data center you don't do agile to do those things so there's a fitness fitness for purpose test on a lot of these frameworks but the challenge is that best practices arrive after you need them if you look at the the pace of change that we're going out at the moment and look at the the sort of revision sort of history of the various frameworks that we've been relying upon um you can't kind of look back there for guidance because it's not coming with you so what have I been doing about this over the years I guess I just I came up with this idea of I think I called an operating framework this is the first one I did back in 2003 for a company called CSR they make building materials so that was my first go at it and try and understand management processes service functions and service processes it was an attempt I had another go at it with this one I can't remember where I did this one but the the ideas of governing the services lifecycle and managing the IT business that occurred to me around that time and ITIL V3 sort of had a little bit of influence on that so I'm to think of IT as a business I did this at one of Australia's big four banks that's another another attempt business demand drive supply of IT services through processes executed by our workforce and governed by controls that's had had some logic to it seen to work this is another another way of looking at it management capabilities organizing the resources to deliver the service portfolio out to the customer another way of looking at it then I put together some training called emerging frameworks in the IT operating model boom boom boom boom that was another revolution and you'll note service lifecycle phases and processes very ITIL centric language that was that was the source oops this one that's actually where I met charlie betts when I put this one up on slide share I got tweeted around a little bit and charlie said those things are not processes they're capabilities we had this whole capability discussion but I came up with the idea of the minimum viable system at that point as the minimum things that you would need to do to have a complete feedback loop or to have a complete system so I'm going to need to talk to a customer I'm going to need to define stuff and I'm going to have to build stuff and bring it into production do all of those sorts of things so so that model made some sense and it's kind of got an inherent value stream sort of organizational approach in there this one was for a large a large financial services services organization the new thinking in that one was the digital delivery model at the top build operate transfer where you'd have a digital agency out there building new stuff operating it for a period of time with the same taxonomy and tools and then transferring it to the new IT organization that would look after it this one I did for a for a mortgage organization a mortgage broker and you'll see that I broke the portfolios into the internal and external the organizational model for the external IT services with product and platform based yeah so it was a product based value stream design for the product team and that seemed to work well they did the structure around that the tools they changed their sourcing model to put the source outsourcer actually on the internal IT services and they did everything to do with their new product their customer facing product they did that internally themselves so that was interesting that's that was part of the that was a high level visualization of the operating model when penguin and random house books came together in age Pacific so I led the transformation of the IT function there and then last but not least I had a bit of a laugh when I found this one in my collection of operating models this was a very large news organization that had a video and content development part of its business called I think was the digital and content business unit and so I had to think about a portfolio of products in that case and supporting platforms and this was 2013 they were already way ahead of the pack because of course if you're in the news media you needed to reinvent yourself not this year but many years ago because that existential crisis of who are we what are we about that happens in the news industry yeah probably seven eight maybe even ten years ago so what did I observe along the way of doing those things plan build run is not an operating model which is what Andrew was saying their life cycle phases but people organize around that and wonder why the head of infrastructure and operations is saying I'm not allowed to talk about the fact that I actually plan build and run things in my function all on my own I've got to be quiet about that's not my job description but I've got to do it because the architects don't do it that I know anything about the infrastructure so I've got to do that so there's a lot of contention and confusion caused by just saying plan build run is the operating model the operating model is more than the structure and I've seen large consultancies go into organizations and give a new structural view or a functional view of the world and say here's the new operating model not really okay there's a lot of other stuff that we need to do governance controls should not be separate very frustrated doing sarbanes oxley work for a little while and finding that people were getting technical writers to come in and write processes and all of this sort of stuff they had no connection to reality in the processes the real work people were doing don't like that that's waste independent independent culture change programs don't they don't change much at all right so I'm going to do a leadership development program and I'm going to do a culture change program why what's it connected to what's the outcome or the change in behavior you're going to need that's going to drive the business outcome out of your operating model you can't do these things independently well framework does your initiatives don't deliver so we're going to go and do this particular framework that we've picked up at a conference and I'm just going to do DevOps or I'm just going to do agile or you know some you know cyber security approach they've got to be connected yeah isolated functionally based improvements don't give you the bigger outcome that you're looking for so an independent initiatives from issues sorry initiatives independent of the service portfolio don't really work so what I mean by that is I'm going to I'm going to go and improve my manufacturing and plant and machinery but not thinking about the product and the value propositions that Andrew was talking about so we've got to really think about the portfolio of things that we do to drive the operating model we need which I'll get to in a bit more detail and leaders love the idea of this but they struggle to design their own model there's no silver bullet answer for the operating model it's pretty hard work and the last thing but I tell you whatever if I talk to a business person about this they'd say it's probably the most important is nobody cares enough about flow the flow of value from left to right yeah if you talk to a manufacturing organization about all of this and you didn't mention the throughput you're getting yeah for the investment that you're making in all of this plant and machinery how many cars can I make with that well I don't really know but it looks nice right so we've got to think about the flow of all of this so there's some things that are behind the models I'm about to show you so I have a very service portfolio centric view of the world which Andrew was talking about the value propositions that IT delivers the traditional and the digital thinking of those together yeah it's really super important so you'll see in fact business strategy IT strategy and governance technology and sourcing roadmaps are essentially strategy to portfolio in IT for IT and I kind of happened across that just through I don't know just through experimentation I came to the same conclusion then I need to worry about leadership and culture organizational design the engagement model and demand management super important we go to market as IT but we don't think about how we're going to engage and how we're going to shape filter and execute on the demand yeah what resources do we need how much capacity do we need those sorts of things we just get started with plan build run and we do that from an architectural level but not really from a business level the next thing is service brokerage and partner integration of course we're sourcing from many different places we're brokering some things in and that are fairly pure it might be fairly simple to do other things will need to be integrated partners need to be integrated certain technologies we're consuming need to be integrated then of course value streams and capabilities you'll see r2d r2f and d2c there measurement improvement management tools and automation and governance these are all the things we've got to get in balance if we're going to have an effective operating model that's going to deliver that service portfolio so this is a bit of a design challenge for us so I guess you might be might be wondering how we might go about that we'll get to that in a tick I would like to propose and you can see my clip art skills at the right there that's actually what it looks like continuous delivery is kind of where we're going with a lot of this and continuous delivery and everything as a service but I'm kind of focusing a little bit here on from the idea to the value yeah how are we going to do that the connection of the ideas of lean startup agile IT service management and continuous operations working together in synchronous flow with the customer and so this is this is the part that is the differentiating capability in our organization this is the bit that the digital team is working on at the moment trying very very hard to deliver on that so that's coming we'll see our organizations tend towards that that being the case we know that we should be thinking about the flow the first way of DevOps Jean Kim's two books up there understanding the work from left to right if we don't understand how the workflows across our organization we're going to struggle the second way shorten an amplified feedback as a long time I till consultants and even before that equality consultant around ISO 9000 and TQM and those sorts of things feedback has always been a bit mysterious when do you get the feedback do you get it at the end of the year the end of the month the end of the week and the trick is if you're building cars you'd find this quite easy well before the car rolls off the end of the production line I need to know whether this thing is going to be okay so the feedback has to be in the cycle with the thing that's being developed and then we get more feedback later when it's in production but this is really important that we shorten and amplify the feedback a culture of continuous learning and experimentation is also extremely important why wouldn't we do this for the whole IT function please give me an argument why we wouldn't worry about these things across the whole organization I break these into flow feedback and freedom they're the things that we need to be focusing on so so that's that's an extremely important part of our our path forward understanding value streams and how to optimize these is extremely important too now the the trouble with things like ITIL 27 processes and five functions and COVID I think it's 40 something various other models is that you could build all of these independent thing independent processes and never know whether you're getting the outcome that you need when you focus on value streams which is what you do in the DevOps and continuous delivery world you say well how long should it take we should be able to turn this around in a day okay cool so how long can this thing sit in a queue minutes not hours not days how long can it does it take for actually processing and what sort of error rate should we be designing this for so if we use this as the construct around which we do our design of the things we do for the business we're going to be in good shape that's why I'm so excited when I ran into IT for IT with a value stream based model awesome the other thing that we also need to understand is that our services are not as simple as they used to be so this is an example from Johnny Woolridge CTR of a company called Cambridge satchel that makes satchels they're from Cambridge pretty straightforward but what they what they've done in this example is to say well at the front end where the basis of competition is where the value proposition is all around the customer experience we're going to move that in a continuous delivery model and then at these other layers of that service we'll move as slowly or as fast as we need to to underpin what we're trying to do at the front end so when we're categorizing our services we have to be a little bit careful not to say well look of course the banks have figured this out if you look at the mobile apps that are connected to core banking systems the mobile apps are actually moving at high cadence no problem they're decoupled via APIs they're risk managing that whole thing so this is how organizations are already starting to think about it yeah but hard to design an organizational model around that there's some complexity so I look at it for it is the unifying framework for the traditional and the digital we might need to instantiate some of these value streams more than once yeah I might need to have one that does the digital portfolio and looks at continuous delivery and continuous operations we need to operate like Netflix in this part of the portfolio and that might attract some slightly different tools and practices and taxonomy yeah that we've got to deal with because we might be dealing with a part of our organization that's quite attached to the way it works and thinks but we need to have a backbone underpinning all of that so there is no need to think of this in a different way for digital it's it's sits quite well within this sort of framework so it for it in that regard is the backbone of flow and it goes down to enough levels to be very helpful for us at the design of the artifacts for processes and tools etc so it's a very a very useful guide in a way that has not been done before in any of the other frameworks so based on my my frameworks experience and my operating model experience I thought well better better organize this it for it into something that I can consume within the operating model construct and so added a few things to it you'll see the service integration and operations management platform management technology business management and ICT governance as capabilities an organization needs to have now if you look at back at Port back at Porter's value chain they're called activities but in this context of an operating model I think they're actually capabilities that are supporting capabilities for those four value streams across the top make sense yeah and from there you can actually do quite a lot of stuff so I can go through and do a rating of my organization based on that legend on the bottom right there it's functional and integrated it's functional but decoupled there's a functional gap in some cases you might not evaluate a particular part but I've used this very very quickly with CIOs and executive teams of IT to say here's your report card on a page and they very very rarely question too much about this because they kind of know yes we think about things in a very functional way we don't really sort of think about the flow of value from left to right across the organization so typically when I give them their report card and then start to organize these things into a future state people are fairly comfortable whilst they know there's going to be some pain they understand intellectually that this is the right thing to do but there's some pain coming one of the ways that I've found useful to help with the clarity of this whole thing is to actually map all of the current tools that you're using onto the components of IT for IT so well some of these things we're going to remove we kind of know that we've got some things that we know not quite right for our organization but we're going to you know we're going to persist with them for a while because we maybe have got a contract a licensing sort of arrangement for the next couple of years and you'll see that some some tools are actually working quite well and a lot of organizations have got service desk incident problem change knowledge management a portal and some of these things could be working quite well if a little bit independently of what's going on upstream so so this is a really nice way of organizing your tools roadmap and actually it was quite interesting I was in a steering committee meeting for a transformation program my team's working on and the head of operations said I didn't know your program was actually working with operations and going to disturb my tooling as well we're talking service management over here and your operations stuff does actually connect to that fairly you know fairly um intimately but yeah it was it was a mystery to that particular individual so so one of the things that I thought was useful in starting a look at this is well how would I define the maturity journey of the operating model then what would that look like so I thought about the plan build run model and how I might how I might sort of describe that so in a plan build run organization I've typically got some sort of inventory of services I understand that there is a life cycle I've got some tooling in place typically deep decoupled there's a capex funding model I've got some functional measures in place I measure the things that I do within the functional areas and I'm seeing or observing some fairly functional also local behaviors and then if I followed the logic of various frameworks I would start to couple these things together yeah and I would start to basically do what it for it would suggest is start to look at these things as value streams rather than functions and so I'll put the the various patents and frameworks some of which I might get a chance to have a look at with you um engagement model in place service backbone established etc etc so at the top level there we're operating digitally yeah so what is that you know that's a bit of digital washing well I'm I'm sort of envisioning we're not there yet but a time where we manage all of our portfolio in a very consistent way and give a very consistent and awesome customer experience to external customers and deliver a great outcome for our business process sponsors and stakeholders and our end users so all of that can work together and there's a bunch of metrics of sorry most enterprise ITs down in the first one yeah so I'm trying to create a little bit of tension here to maybe move up a little so so the the metrics that I think are worthwhile looking at I'm not going to read them all out but the value stream based metrics are going to be super important for us at the end of it we want to be looking at customer experience flow metrics life cycle value optimization and optimizing the value we're getting out of our suppliers so this is this is perhaps where we can head so what the what might this look like for your organization and I'm extremely excited about the way Tesla is evolving as an organization if you look at the roadster the s the x the 3 the y the truck all of those sorts of things you're seeing the supply chain evolve with the product couldn't be clearer yeah the backyard approach to doing the the the roadster with the the lotus and the bits and pieces of of batteries and gearboxes they tried all of that sort of stuff a very garage days sort of experience yeah they just sort of put it together and then all of a sudden they they figured out they had to to build a few of those roadsters for the people that paid a couple hundred grand or whatever it was to reserve one but the the whole thing was just hanging together I think in the in Ashley Vance's biography of of Elon Musk they talk about things actually being held together with magnets and and blue tack and stuff like that the the roadster was on the stage in in pieces essentially right so but if you're going to get out there and and and do several hundred thousand model freeze all of a sudden you're building giga factories you're putting it into locations all around the world etc etc so you're changing your operating model to suit the product and the volume of that that you need to produce so what do we need to do so those of you familiar with Simon cynics start with why might be a few about yeah you recognize there's some there's golden circle I keep thinking golden triangle but it's obviously circles why how and what so the modern it function I was talking to an insurance company in Brisbane the other day and I said so tell me the why of your organization and in their case they said we're a software company that sells insurance products and I went wow okay you're a software company that sells insurance products that's going to be a very different conversation than if you are making cars or digging coal out of the ground or whatever it is right so so philosophically they are oriented towards the IT business and IT use case so you know their how will be quite different than another organization's how and the what down the bottom there will be quite different as well we have to start with that why because that gets us in touch with the values of our organization on their purpose and intent right our business and that's extremely important otherwise we'll be saying let's just implement IT for IT and we'll go down to the same problem that we've been doing for the last 20 or so years of all of these frameworks which chapter are we up to in the book where am I in the table of contents of itil cobert ISO 20 thousand 27 thousand one whatever it is yeah that's the challenge that we have we don't want to go there again we want to start with why think about how and then we think about what so what does that look like so all of these dimensions somehow need to be reconciled and it looks like this so we'll start with understanding the configuration drivers of our organization so what is our business strategy what is our current state service portfolio what is our sourcing model all of those things are going to be very important for us to understand our service portfolios and families and the attributes of all of those things and if we don't do that we're going to struggle I saw a Commonwealth Bank and EDS back in the day in 1997 when they first outsourced had had very very difficult lives together because they'd done all of the attributes of the retail bank and as part of the deal but they hadn't looked at the institutional bank the equities trading part of the organization organization etc etc so I figured out that this was kind of important so from there I can start looking at various patents to say well maybe I need to think about Siam I might think about DevOps in terms of some of my value streams I might go look for an ERP for IT that I actually satisfy the whole left to right or I might say well I need some best of breed here and there so I'm starting to think about patents and frameworks that will serve my why and the operating model sorry the service portfolio attributes from there I'll start to design capabilities for the next level down and then I'll get to my what yeah that's when I start to actually understand the roles and responsibilities and all of those sorts of good things that we need to do I'm sorry I'm going so fast and Mark Smallie said to me this is more of a masterclass that it is 30 minutes but there's plenty of time to catch up over the next day or so so the other thing is well I've got this idea of a service family and it might be end user services our ERPs our line of business services it could be platform based there are various attributes we want to look at so we've got to look at all of those and say well then what do I need to do in terms of designing new value streams to meet the requirements of those families what supporting capabilities do we need and then how are we going to change towards that new state and I would be suggesting that you would use some sort of capability uplift model for the transformations that you need to do and some sort of more can banized optimization model for the smaller incremental things and so I will use both of these in programs some places need big new capability and others need optimization of what they're currently doing and then you can organize those into a roadmap of releases so you can see four different releases there and my theme might be reliable it for a start and then I want to work a little bit more smart and then I want to be a bit more agile and adaptive and then I want to be integrated with the business and we'll call that release four plus okay so I can color code that stick that up on a wall on a on a big piece of paper or a poster and plot our progress as an organization and then I can turn that into something a little bit more detail yeah so these are the things that we're going to do so a bit of a wild ride down the rabbit burrow for for half an hour some things to reflect on so firstly understanding the digital aspirations of your business if you don't know that go read the annual report this is a wonderful font of of intent right annual reports there's lots of good stuff under about us your business is already advertising that out to their customers right and then once you've informed yourself with that go have a conversation with the digital team what are my current and future service families how am I doing things now how might I do things in the future so is my operating model and its constituent value streams ready and fit for purpose what work do I need to do how can I leverage it for it tools and emerging frameworks to accelerate it capability so there's a lot of useful content out there already and then the main thing I'd like to to to sort of end this with is the future proof problem is more about you are you working on the system or you're working in it are you just doing every piece of work that comes to you in a queue or you're standing back from it and understanding how the system works this is really obvious when you start to work with continuous delivery and DevOps where you're working on the tool chain and seeing the results you get yeah because most of its automated becomes much more much more obvious but there's always a there's always a continuum here between well should I be doing 50 50 should I be doing 80 20 should I be doing doing 95 5 what is it and will depend a little bit on your level in the company but that's how your future proof that's really what it's about and I'd like to leave you with the thought that as leaders improving our work is our work that's actually what we're supposed to be doing yeah and if you're in an architecture role you're a head of some function or a head of it then improving the current state is what it's all about if we find ourselves turning up every day and working through the backlog we're not enjoying our work it's not the creative work we were born to do and on that note I'll leave those thoughts out there for you and that last little saying there don't go with the flow be the flow I'm from value flow and the goat's all about curiosity so be the goat okay thank you thank you so much Dave that was excellent it's a rich content thank you so I'm going to take this opportunity to invite Andrew back up to the stage Dave have a seat and we'll get into a nice discussion with Rob moderating the questions I think I see that about 30% of you came in after we announced that we do have a way for you to enter your questions just use your laptop or your mobile phone and go to slido.com slido.com and then it just pops up one field for you to fill out which is our event code OG for open group AMS for Amsterdam so once you do that you can get in and select this it management professionals day and then the questions will go to our speakers now and for the rest of the day so we can see those as they come in feel free if you have questions now still for our two speakers to get started doing that and Rob I'll invite you to start engaging with those questions thank you thank you Andrew and David for the presentations we only got about five minutes before to the break but let me start with a question for you Andrew it's about value change value streams are a powerful tool but you see a lot of discussion nowadays in the market about the capability models so why is capability or a concept of capability not part of the operating model in your in your case I've got my yes my microphone is on and this has been a bit of a struggle for me over the last three years thinking about capability models and and and value chain maps and is there a concept of a capability chain which is different from a capability model and different from a value chain I'm afraid I haven't resolved this set this terminology issue completely in my mind yet but I am fairly convinced that one of the dangers of the way capability models are used is typically you put formulate the strategy you know do the governance comes at the top of the model and then there's a various of boxes which is sort of the the work that has to be done to deliver value and then there's some supporting activities often at the bottom is how and I my concern about that is it doesn't put the work that has to be done to deliver value as the most important thing in people's thinking and I I increasingly feel that I focus on what has to be done to deliver value and then worry about all the other stuff is is critical and hence I prefer a capability chain or value chain or service stream or high-level process map as a starting point okay thank you then David the question for you you propose that IT5T is a unifying framework rather than rather than the latest buzzword like hybrid b-modal and that IT5T is a framework for b-modal so are they actually the same concept in your proposal are they saying different things I think it's possible to resolve all the different service families onto the one construct of the IT operating model and so multi-modal multi-speed yeah I think I think that's really where it's headed because the e-commerce example you know back in 99-2000 just showed us we stood up another organization and then we folded it back in and so there's there's no there's there are plenty of reasons to be temporarily b-modal I can understand that because we might have reacted too slowly in IT for example and the businesses had to go its own way I don't I actually don't really like the term shadow IT because it tells the business that it's done a naughty thing and I think that's a little bit prescriptive or or judgmental from the IT function the business does what the business needs to do and therefore b-modal is a thing but I think if we got ahead of the curve we could have done a better job already and I don't think there's any reason why we shouldn't resolve those things together fairly soon certainly the DevOps Enterprise conference where I'll be in San Francisco in a couple weeks time it's just it's DevOps now you know in that case and there's a lot of big enterprises that are doing things as the IT function okay thank you I think this this how do you deal with the new stuff is is it a perennial business issue completely outside of IT as well as within IT Clayton Cushison the the guru on on innovation has always argued you should start things off separately and the innovator's dilemma and all is arguing for that but there are lots of examples and I'm thinking of the online delivery service for groceries where where actually the the people who decided to pick the stuff out of the store and then put it on a truck and send it to you were more successful than the people who started separate online businesses so it it depends right and it really is worth thinking through carefully okay then a question David for you it's about why do organizations need to have a separate IT department as the world's most digitized nation abolished its IT ministry for about five years ago so why do we need an IT department still that's such a great question it's a great question I've actually got a customer that's the Australian energy market operator that runs all of the all of the utilities operations and runs all the transactions on the network they took the IT department away and they put it back to the most appropriate places within within the business functions and that's working quite well and you know we've actually put the IT operating model sort of woven through the business model and that's working quite well typically there's arguments for economies of scale and scope and skills you know centres of excellence those sorts of ideas I think the argument for it being decoupled and isolated and commoditized to the extent where it can be outsourced I just I can't deal with those arguments anymore you throw things over the fence and you send control of your business process to somebody else and so I think it is more about on the continuum going closer and closer to the business and integrating more and more yeah yeah I guess then in the line of business they get a sort of IT function I mean and if you source it to another vendor would that be a kind of IT function so maybe you shouldn't call it a department but it's a function within the business yeah another question for you Andrew it's about what is the role of the business to develop this IT operating model I don't think the business typically is very competent so I think it's the role of the IT leadership I think the business has to give the IT leadership some design principles which comes from the business strategy so there's a dialogue between the business and the IT leadership to agree the design principles for the IT operating model but in the same way that what's the role of the customer in you know helping Tesco develop their operating model you know they're relevant input but they're not the leaders of the process right thank you there was a comment about the flow feedback and freedom slide that was used but the slides were very fast could you expand on how the framing helps focus on the development of the IT operating model and delivering value to the business I think one of the key metrics that's been missing in in IT is that the idea of flow and I think Charlie Betts put a slide up a few events ago that showed all the cues from left to right in the IT function and I think if there's a perishability of value and if we and the economic cost of delay which is one of Reinertson's things if we don't know those things if we're not focused on the left to right then I don't think we know what we're actually doing I actually think we're flying blind as an IT function if we don't know the work actually did some work with one of the banks in Australia recently and it had taken them six months of skunkworks activity to figure out how they did a release on the mobile app all right just butchers paper all the way down the wall and then looking for the sources of waste and improvement it's it's fundamental to our understanding of what we're doing for the business is understand the left to right work it's probably the most important step forward to get away from the functional view of the world okay thank you yeah looking at the time final question is about it says here that most organizations still believe in improving the run running the IT business but strategy and design is still taking a backseat how do you think we need to change this perception or do you even see that in the perception today well I let me go first I'm being a strategy person so I would say it's a bit the golden circles you've got to start with the you know what are you trying to do and why and so a lack of thinking about that is going to make it very hard to have a good operating model and that's going to make it very hard to optimize the run and yes you have you have to get the permission to to to invest in change and therefore you have to demonstrate that you can run your existing model reasonably well so yes you've got to be reasonably efficient to what you're how you're doing it currently but unless you do the strategy work and the and the operating model design work you can never make those breakthrough performance gains okay and just to add on to that I mean the run has had a fair bit of polishing and it's still not great because we're not building in the support models and requirements upstream you know we don't I do this thing called the path to production trying to organize yeah it's it's so we're just going to go out of business if we just keep polishing the run requirements to deployment is the is the place the execution speed is probably what we need now we're you know we have digital disruption underway the ability to execute is something that business is going to be much more interested in than whether you're getting an extra point zero one uptime on submission critical services yeah they want that too by the way that's the problem okay and through David thank you very much thank you thank you