 Youth Edition. Today is February 4th, 2018. My name is Jules Caserta. I use they, them pronouns. I am Steve Flora. Steve is a nickname. I use she, her pronouns. And today we will be talking about a lot of things. Mainly toxic gender stereotypes. And to start that off, throughout this we will be referring to gender and sex. Two different things. Because they are. So that's just the first kind of disclaimer. And the first thing I'm going to be talking about is toxic masculinity. Where are we going to start? Where are we going to start? It's a good question. So, start it off. Why don't we define toxic masculinity? So it's the cultural ideas of manliness, right? The sort of toxic idea of what a man has to be. Same with toxic masculinity. Just switch around. Yeah. And like traits for toxic masculinity would be like really aggressive. Both like violent and like sexually aggressive. Also unemotional and like they aren't allowed to cry. They're dominant and like they can't be victims of abuse and things like that. Things like that. A lot of stereotypes. A lot of stereotypes that are just wrong and super harmful to men in general. To everyone, but men. These are traits. These are stereotypes about men that then immensely harm men. Which most stereotypes immensely harm a lot of the time. Absolutely. Absolutely. So how they harm, I'm going to talk about a little one that I can talk about a lot, is the sexually aggressive and all men want sex. It's an issue for ace and arrow men and boys. Because it leads a lot of them to feel like they're not a real man. Like they're broken or not manly enough or that they're weird and they have to want sex. But if they're ace, obviously they don't. So it leads to a lot of self-hate and like really just like direct it. Like really bad stuff. Direct at yourself coming from you to yourself. So there's a lot of self-hate and loathing and problems there. And then there are also men who take toxic masculinity to a whole new extreme. I want you to talk about that. I feel like I can't very well. So I think that some men who kind of know how, you know, kind of masculine they present themselves and how they put on a front, they are, you know, they're aware of that. But then they also kind of go along with these stereotypes and that kind of consumes them. But not all, but men who do follow those stereotypes, which is a common thing happens. I don't know. That's kind of a hard thing to talk about when you're not directly, directly experiencing it yourself. I think that to speak fully correctly on it would need another party of someone who's able to speak about that a bit better. But What do you think really extreme toxic masculinity that can be connected to like rape culture and stuff like that? It can, but I feel like that's something that is very connected to the person themselves and who they are and what they're, I don't know if I want to say what they're into, but like kind of what they're no, like in terms of what they kind of stand with and all of that. So I think that like a lot of from what I'm aware of a lot of rape crisis has come from a lot of, you know, refusal from victims and, you know, kind of them doubting their abuser of, you know, whatever. And then it kind of leads to some other things. And it's not really a choice, unfortunately, because sometimes you can't get out of it, which is a little bit unrelated. Anyways, but I think that like having that be connected is definitely a big piece that is very complicated. But because I'm not someone who has experienced that first hand, but like, I know enough about it to talk some about it. But I don't know if you have anything else about that, that you're kind of thinking about. Well, there's also the, like, idea of how that men can't be a victim of abuse, that it's not, it's just not possible for a woman to abuse a man, which is just completely false. And it also then leads to men financially can't speak out, like about what they've experienced. Right. And it's just that could also almost be like toxic masculine, and the woman abuser thinking that they aren't the abuser because they are female. Absolutely. Which is blatantly wrong because if you are in a relationship with someone and you are using power, you're holding that relationship against them, you are an abuser. Yeah. It doesn't matter what gender or sex you have. Or how it's presented. It's like, if it's a physical thing or even an emotional or verbally thing, verbally a verbal thing. It's verbally a word. Yes, but not the right context. Not the right context. You know, okay, fair enough. I mean, are we like talking about more, are we trying to get into like kind of some of that a little bit deeper? We can go wherever you want to go. So I think that, like, a lot of the stories that you hear on TV or whatever about these young girls getting abused in like, or like, yeah, like on the news, main news stream, it's like you only ever hear it from like certain perspectives, but it's also like you always only hear that the abuser is a male. And it's like, I feel like it's happening in reverse roles or whatever, whatever is happening. Like it's happening in many different ways and people just aren't talking about that because people don't care about that as much. And it's not as important because people might think it's, oh, it's not as bad. Like, because a woman did this to another man or woman. It's like, or just another person really. It's like, it's not as bad, but it definitely is taking advantage of people is really, really not okay. Yeah. So if a man were to come out and talk about like being abused by their girlfriend, then it's, even a woman coming out and talking about abuse they receive from their boyfriend still is met with a lot of stigma, which is a huge issue and isn't okay in general, but then I feel men get a lot, even like more and just say that they get more is insane because women already get so much when they are coming out against their abuser. So there's already so much like so much like negative like thoughts around when women come out of against their abuser and there's even more. Yeah, because they think they think that men can't abuse that if like that they can take it or whatever that they are that they should be strong enough to take whatever their girlfriend or boyfriend is doing. Right. It's like, there's one side of one thing that people are just expecting and like, you know, not want to hear about, but are expecting to hear about. And then there's another side of things where it's like gender roles switched. And it's like, well, that's it's just interesting that people don't look further into things, you know, kind of start to actually understand like why things are happening or if they can figure out why but see different points of things that they might not see. I think that like men should be strong enough to take the abuse can also kind of tie into men being unable to cry without not being seen as like a real man where they have to be unemotional and strong and like the stereotypical like strong dude that is just like a stone face and never feels like anything other than like anger, which again also leads to even more seriousness anyways because it doesn't have to be like anger. It's just like a whole like presentation of being serious and like there and kind of like, yeah, it's like a weird present thought at the time. And then the fact that it's perpetuated the idea that men can't cry and that boys are growing up and that idea and it leads them to again another cycle of self-hate and self-loathing, which is going to come up a lot as we talk about toxic masculinity and toxic femininity and all the toxic things. That shouldn't be there. I think that the image that's presented is not like I think it's good to know about these things and I'm glad that I'm, you know, learning more about these things as I'm going because it's very, very interesting to see, you know, different points of, you know, different people's opinions and what they're seeing in their homes or whatever the situation is, but different people just feel like pressured, you know, into being certain things that are presented to them through the media or through, you know, whatever they're learning or seeing this kind of thing. And so it's kind of, it's very unfortunate that a good amount of people are left with no choice but to feel like that. And then there's also a certain stick when that comes around just talking about toxic masculinity in general, especially like people are like, well, it's like man haters or like they're trying to take away their masculinity or they hate like man haters or that they're trying to, a word that I saw a lot when I was researching this that I hated was pussy if I, all men. Yeah. And just I went that word in first place, I was like, that's not a real word. Second of all, I was like, what does that even mean? I haven't heard that one many times, so I don't really know exactly what, just kind of the context it's used in and like why it's used. And I was, as I was researching all this for this episode, I was going through like these comments that I was looking at, and it was just like these men who were like complaining about the fact that we were like using the term talking masculinity, and I was looking at it and I was like, this is the prime example of toxic masculinity. Because you're perpetuating this idea that it's not real, that this is just how all men are, just how their brains were. And if you're someone like watching this and thinking about, like I'm not trying to call anyone out, but like if you're watching this and just, you know, kind of feeling like, oh, like that's incorrect, it's okay to have your own opinions and thoughts, but like there's definitely a fine line of things where you need to like step back and like talk about other things too, and it may be good for you to do that as well, because you might be learning different things and like different things that you might not have known, it might help you open up and kind of break free from everything, which is very important sometimes. And discussing toxic masculinity is not saying all men are bad or evil, and the term is an assertion that all men are naturally violent. Toxic masculinity is not saying that all masculinity is toxic. Toxic is an adjective put in front of masculinity to describe a specific type of masculinity. And it's not everybody, it's just there's definitely a good amount of people who are like this and don't have any other like knowledge of how to be. Because being a masculine person as itself isn't a bad thing, whether you be male or female, being masculine isn't a bad thing, it's just when it reaches those really toxic levels where and then you can go from like there's like masculinity and there's toxic masculinity and there's insanely toxic masculinity. And then there's also, I was actually looking at something that's like it's actually, it's like homophobic masculinity, it's like very, it's very interesting, but there's like a lot of like some people tend to call other, like if a more toxic masculine person is talking to another one who isn't as like, you know, so like super toxic and toxic. Whatever, who's so a person of toxic masculinity talking to someone who is, you know, just them that are themselves and they're emotional and when they need to be and you know, whatever they're, you know, they're them. And it's very commonly used like the word gay is used so much towards like for men saying it to other men who may or may not identify as you know, a part of the queer community or not. Like it's like that's, that's like a term that people are using to just make fun of people for being emotional and like having actual emotions as like when they're just over here, you know, just sitting looking like a rock and like emotionless. It's like not, it's not something that I really understand but it's, I find it interesting. Yeah, by using the term gay and like it's not only are you perpetuating toxic masculinity, you're also perpetuating gay stereotypes that are absolutely, it's just so many stereotypes and why do we need all these stereotypes? We don't, it's the answer, we don't need these stereotypes. Just don't use them, don't believe them. Or just, just keep them to yourself if you're, if you're into them, just that's something that you need to really contain and not share with the public. And like what you were saying, an emotional man or literally just a human who would happen to be male is labeled as like gay or girly or just stuff like that and this is me off so much. Because one, there are, you can, there are girls who aren't really emotional, it's not, it's also, that's presumably toxic femininity and it's just a cycle of perpetuating these bad stereotypes that nobody needs. Absolutely. I'm getting frustrated. But I just threw around the term toxic femininity. Should we try to move into that a little bit? What is toxic femininity? Is it real? Which is the question we have to ask about all of them apparently. Is this real? It definitely is out there. It's not, it's not something that's not present, you just don't see it quite as much as toxic masculinity. It's just, it's something that you're not faced with as much because it isn't like as present because the whole like stigma with males is that they're like big and powerful and whatever but women can be just as like powerful and like muscular or whatever as men who are stigma, stigmatized to be like that. It's like, okay. I think you do see toxic femininity a lot. I think a lot of toxic femininity is more internalized like where as you were talking about toxic masculinity is like kind of the big buff dude who's like really like kind of loud and angry and aggressive whereas toxic femininity is the idea of toxic femininity is like soft, nurturing, weak women where just because those are the like traits and ideas it's a lot quieter and kind of more internalized and and like I was saying it's, toxic femininity is a self-destructive it's self-destructive and it's something and really direct directed onto oneself based on societal standards. So is this stuff like, this is like how a lot of women develop like eating disorders or like things like slut-shaming or just social anxiety? Social anxiety. Especially talking about eating disorders it's the idea that women have to be these really like small like thin things that are just bones that are bones and have like no fat on them that then leads to be so many young girls wanting to be thinner and wanting to have a certain body type and then that leads into their future when they're like seeing something like a toddler this and leads to that being their only idea of femininity which then leads to self-destructive eating habits and self-destructive habits in general depression anxiety self-harm all of this can be traced in some way connected to toxic femininity which is also toxic masculinity you can see a lot of really unhealthy habits coming out of these horrible horrible ideas. Yeah I just just to get back to eating disorders really quickly like I feel like you won't be like there's it's just I'm real when I talk about all the stuff and like comparison is media media is doing this to everybody and it's terrible it's it's scary like everyone is changing because of other seeing other people or their thoughts or their expectations and like trying to look up to people in a way I guess but you don't like I think one like definitely a stereotype that I just kind of like compare us comparison well no I wasn't done with my sentence I just kind of put together comparison and um like I feel like you don't expect men to develop eating disorders but you it's more likely to expect a female to develop an eating disorder and that's like like there's just a good of chances it's like how men can't be abused it's just a thing that men don't do they don't get they it's not something that happens to men but a lot of men do have eating disorders because they're all also are stereotypes and ideals but placed on men's bodies so they have to be the buff kind of guy right and not everyone can achieve that and at least to um there's something called extra-diction which is an actual it's classified as an eating disorder where all you can do with your time is exercise exercise exercise that's all of your that's all your mind wants your body to ever do and and needs to eating very little because you just want to focus on exercising so much like kind of like anorexia kind of that kind of general realm things like that's kind of a similar I just I can talk so much about eating disorders on so many mental disorders because I find them horrifyingly fascinating right but that is a thing that happens and yeah like you said you don't expect it's not it's why we talked about men having eating disorders whenever we it's discussed it always is a female example which isn't necessarily always the case and although it isn't you don't it and because of this people don't see it as as common when in reality it could be as common we're just not talking about it right absolutely I think that sorry to veer off of the main topic of that um but I think it's just it's just the comparison and it's the comparison of stereotypes and the comparison of you know you and another person it's like it's really hurtful and it's like it's insane it's like no one hears about this because no one like everyone gets interested in like the mainstream things that are like you know expectations or whatever hearing about one gender as opposed to the other having this certain issue and everyone's used to it even though it's still horrifying and it's still terrible it's just it's it's insane and it's just really hard to watch happen it's not something I like to take part in but it's really hard to avoid and it's really frustrating so and the thing with a lot of these like stereotypes is that none of them are actually like really in truth because of someone who is female by sex and someone who is male by sex they have virtually the exact same like brain like all of it's all the same like it doesn't females aren't hard wired to be like weaker than men it's not how to know how it works and then the everyone's their own person it's diversity it's like it's everyone is themselves and they're not another person it's not something that there's no like cookie cutter for exactly people because that's just in like I'm not good with words there's no cookie cutter for like what the ideal female for me there's no it's metaphor it's good it's a good metaphor thank you I appreciate it I'm proud of my metaphors okay I think the veer back veer back and how I want to veer back is um toxic relationships stereotypes because I talked like men are really dominant and women are at least submissive and weak and that leads to really like toxic right home life like women have to stay home and take care of children if they have children or but the women can also go out and work and be successful while the men you know are staying home and taking care of their families like yeah it's like I don't think that like I think if we move into all of the individual stereotypes that's just going to be a lot of rambling but like it's very similar to like all of the other things that we've been talking about it's like comparisons and things like whatever like they can be switched they can be mixed they can be you know whatever it's like yeah and then and then it is for anyone who isn't in that kind of cookie cutter relationship where it's like women are they cook they clean they stay home all that stuff and when men go out and they're and they like make money for the family anyone who isn't in that is then ridiculed for it like if you're if you're a woman married to a man and he's staying home and raising children well you're out um working or even if you're two women or you're two men if you're not if you're not in that cookie cutter toxic stereotype of a relationship then you're ridiculed and for all of these if you're not in that like if you're not in that box of these toxic stereotypes you are ridiculed constantly I mean it's how it is for anything if you don't fit the norm you will be ridiculed absolutely which is stupid for lack of a better word it is stupid I think he kind of said like everything I was thinking so I think I'm out on that one yeah and there's I again like I said I was when I was doing research for this I could find so little on toxic femininity because it's just people so many people are like oh it's not real yeah it's not in the mainstream as much yeah there are people saying like oh toxic masculinity isn't real but you hear that term thrown around a lot more and it isn't in like news and it is in the media but toxic femininity isn't at all I don't personally know that much about toxic femininity because it's like not mentioned a lot it's not like so but it is something that a lot young girls do experience a lot it's just not being talked about like in school as you can see example of toxic femininity all the time absolutely of like like you see like an example of toxic femininity is like slut shaming you see that in like middle school and elementary school and it's just so strange because now they're being like it moved from just being in high school it's moved down it's slowly these ideas are slowly going out of the younger and younger generations making them kind of more and like giving them more time to themselves essentially I mean like I'm not trying to like I'm not being mean but there's a lot of people who really fucked things up like it's not something that really it's like there's I'm not like I said I'm not calling anyone out but like there's definitely certain groups of people that really really made things a lot more difficult with their opinions and you know when they could have just kept them to themselves and you know carried on like if there hadn't been as much you know slut shaming and you know just I guess insulting if that makes any sense about all of this stuff like I feel like you know because there's as the years have progressed and decreased at the same time like I feel it's a very common thing like men and women are just developing more insecurities and more you know anxiety and depressive episodes around these things and it's it's wild it's just really I don't know I kind of got carried away but I think but you were talking about a comparison how like men can't be abused or men can't get into orders you also don't really hear about men ever being slut shamed which is a thing they can be slut shamed I think it's like I think there's a different term there might be a different term but I don't know I don't I'm just going to discuss right that's all I'm just saying the same thing you're being shamed for yeah enjoying sex except for taking it or just dressing a certain way even not even you can be a virgin and still become slut shamed just for how you dress if you're wearing if you're a female you're wearing a low-cut top do you are obviously and it uh because I like you talk we're talking about okay I was like creeping into like younger generations I see this stuff I would like in my in my middle school experience I have seen this stuff any female who hangs out with guys it's obviously dating all of them and it's obviously be all with all of them and it's like what is it's expectations it's like all of the expectations are so harsh and really just everyone's just expecting you to be this perfect person it's just and then there's also the idea that men and women can't be friends they have to be they have to be in a relationship or they have to just be doing something yeah and I think that where did that even come from things have progressed they didn't have progressed because people realized that gay people exist right but like also it's like that's it's not just that like too straight people can be friends too like whatever it's like it's it's just really bothersome when like all you just get a bunch of like chatter and all this about who you're choosing to spend your time with it's like you don't have to be romantically involved with anyone to be you know friends with them it's like hang out I don't know yeah and I touched on how talks masculine already can affect arrow ace boys and men talk to community also can really affect arrow women because it's like the idea that they have to want this like romantic relationship with like hearts and pink and everything everywhere and it's just like no not everyone wants that not everyone wants a sexual relationship like if you're a guy who may be ace and you could be a female who may be arrow it could be both it could be anything right and that all of this just leads to so much internalized self-hate and the fact that we're seeing this in some in like younger generations like you meet kids in elementary school who just want to be thinner like that's their goal is to be thinner it's so sad and you're like you're like you're like first grade you shouldn't be worrying about this stuff no one should be worrying about this stuff but it's like you have a little bit of baby fat you're supposed to have that it's okay I still have baby fat I don't know I think that like there's a lot of patients who are like involved with all of this and I think that like internal patients I guess like you need to be patient with yourself for all of things it's so deeply in our society at this point that trying to like break down these ideas is going to take so long like inside yourself and with others like like I still like find myself having these toxic thoughts and I actually catch myself and be like no that's not how that works not that yeah for sure because it's just so deeply ingrained us at this point it's only ingrained in everyone because that's what we have been seeing our entire life's been told our entire lives that men are this way and women are this way and that non-binary people on a thing yeah whoof whoof is right oh my god there's so much that I'm getting so worked up about it I don't want to get working out about it because my face turns red and it's not fun anything else to get in touch John um we have there I feel like we kind of keep veering off from like yeah we do it a lot just the just toxic femininity as a whole like I think that we talked I don't know I think that if we talk more about like specifically like um you know like there's a lot of there's a lot of um opinions that are heard like maybe talk about some of those that you are aware of and like then I don't know if we don't think of anything else we can well I just like individuals opinions towards others like for example like lesbians have to be masculine or like non-binary people have to represent as men right and that is either valid or true like people can be what they want to be it's not your choice unfortunately just kidding but it's not unfortunately it's just how it is it's not anything to be sorry about or anything so and the thing that I've noticed is that with the like rise of non-binary being like the public eye you were now seeing stereotypes come up for that like they have to be mass they have to have short hair like finally all of that and I see this happening and like no stop it this whole like because ah this is non-binary is literally just you don't exist inside like male and female there shouldn't be any stereotype for that at all that's kind of the whole point like your boundaries are still your boundaries they can change they can develop they can like whatever like it's they're trying to put its identity this whole point is literally they're not in a box into a box exactly and first off it just doesn't work that well because there are always going to be these amazing people who are going to break down that box and they're going to they're going to be a non-binary person with long hair and wears makeup and they're going to be there's going to be a woman who presents his mask and has short hair and stuff like that and there's going to be a guy who likes to wear makeup and still and is straight guys can wear makeup and be straight there's an idea guys can be gay and wear makeup and just be all around gorge and it's so amazing when i see just many makeup looks so good so much the time and i'm like can you all do this because you all look amazing um just a quick thing there is a podcast i i know it's successful on like the apple podcast app but um jonathan venness has a very interesting podcast that i think is very no i'm just saying like there's actually a lot of really really cool things on there so like if you want to go deeper into that there is actually some about toxic and um masculine yeah masculinity so i just just a side note but i did kind of go on a ramble on to like try to sum up what i said is that there are always going to be people who are going to break down these boxes that are that for us because these boxes aren't actually like real they don't make sense like shouldn't be real they're figurative they're figurative boxes well obviously i'm not in a real box no i know they are figurative boxes yes right but they're always going to be people who like break that break that down and like i love seeing that is amazing and then that's like an amazing thing to see and then you like turn your head this way and it's like you see so many horrible things and it's like why can't it all just be this you know yeah for sure should we end up on a positive note i think we should that we usually don't do that we it's we're fairly negative people okay so final thoughts steve what are your wrap this up in a neat little sentence you can't do that final thoughts i think that you need to be yourself despite what other people say um your opinions are valid you're valid um just thrive you know just thrive that's all thank you yeah nine society please take all your little stereotypes wrap them up in a neat little box and check them out the window because we don't need them all right so this hasn't been all things lgbtq plus use addition thank you for watching and we'll see you next month