 Welcome everybody to today's LinkedIn Live. We are here to celebrate our CISL's newest course, Women Leading Change Shaping Our Future, and I'm delighted to welcome some of our contributors from the course. It's probably worth saying that we have a phenomenal array of really diverse contributors from all parts of the world actually contributing to this course. From a wonderful, passionate 23-year-old woman from Afghanistan who works in European policy all the way through to a woman in her 80s who's been nominated for Nobel Peace Prize three times. So delighted to have today's conversation. This can be a very relaxed, informal, interactive conversation where we'll be responding to your questions. So please put them in the chat and my colleague George will be monitoring those questions. So to kick us off today, welcome Nishma, Janice, and hopefully we'll be hearing from Rav soon. Janice, I wanted to start with you. So just for people who are less familiar with the course, the first presentation of which we'll launch on May the 2nd, we're looking at sort of women's leadership and women leading change through these lenses, these three lenses, kind of a macro systems level lens, a sort of a meso-organizational team lens, and then also an individual lens. And I wanted to ask you first, Janice, so you have had the good fortune of working in a number of different industries in different geographies, different parts of the world. You're dialing in from El Paso this morning, I believe. So just to kick us off, really, the role of women in business leading change. What's been your experience of how that works best? Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Can you hear me properly? So great. Perfect. So I, yeah, as you said, I've worked in so many different industries. I've worked in what people sometimes consider as male-dominated industries, like the aviation industry. And I have seen different examples of people leading change. I've seen women, particularly, sometimes, the only ones in the table. And it's been very interesting to see a lot of those role models, so to speak. And I was initially surprised because I had almost a stereotype that if you were a woman and you had children or you were a caregiver, that there was absolutely no way you could be leading an organization. And I was so wrong. Or that they were women, they may not have had, they may not have a family of their own, but they were young, youngish. They were, I think, their mid-30s when they became a board member or a legal counsel. And so I was so surprised that there were so many different examples of women leading change in organizations. And what made that really successful was an open mindset within the company to allow, I mean, to almost, I didn't want to use that word, but almost like to look out for people who had those sort of skill sets and be almost willing to try out that sort of leadership, if you know what I mean. I found that as almost a commonality that there was an openness to identifying these types of women and bringing them into senior leadership. Brilliant. Yeah, that's great. And apologies, Janice, I was terribly rude. Tell us a little bit why you're in our past and mentioned aviation, but just give us a whistle stop to through your career. Yeah, so my family moved in the middle of the global pandemic from Hong Kong to the U.S. I've been working in Asia for nearly 15 years. My background is I'm an environmental scientist and an economist. So naturally, I'm working in the field of sustainability for over, for nearly 20 years. Yeah, and I've worked in different industries, as I mentioned earlier, from aviation to hospitality, real estate, and now for consumer goods company here in Texas. Wonderful. And would you mind sharing why you've moved to El Paso? Yes, again, the pandemic. I was talking about it with my husband last night and I said if I hadn't been in the pandemic, I probably would still be in San Francisco or I would have moved to New York, because I thought I was a city girl. I mean, living in Hong Kong, right? And I used to live in London. But the pandemic really focused, it almost forced me to think about my priorities as a mother and also as a person. And I decided I needed to spend time with my children. And also I was very interested in understanding how do you work with companies that are, they're not, they're not exactly in the Fortune 100. But I wanted to understand like how do you help medium and large size companies integrate sustainability? And I just thought, you know, it'd be, you know, for all of those reasons together, this is the reason I'm in Texas. Fantastic. Great. Well, Texas is lucky to have you. What other observations would you have? So I imagine that many, many of the people tuning into this will be working in business organizations. And having worked in the hospitality sector and aviation, as you said, in transportation and now for a global consumer goods company, you know, what, where can business have the most impact when it comes to delivering the future that we want and need? And also sort of a second part of that question, where have you seen women have the most influence and particularly when it comes to partnerships and collaborations? Right. Yeah. Let me just start with the partnerships and collaborations point. So when I was in Hong Kong, I was part of a group called the Women's Foundation. And it was, it was basically a venue or it was a group of women who were helping each other. And I, Zoe, I mentioned it earlier, it was kind of jokingly, like they were hyping each other up, right? Because you believe this narrative when you grow, when you, I mean, I remember when I was 12, being told that these are the things that you're not supposed to do as a woman or as a girl, right? And you keep hearing that from society. You wonder why there are magazines, kid, like teen magazines about falling in love and makeup. And I wasn't really into these things, right? Like, but I was almost forced to believe that this was what it took to be a real woman. And then it took years to kind of unlearn that narrative. And so this is the reason why, you know, I think partly the reason why the Women's Foundation was so successful is building a new narrative, which is the truer narrative, right? And then building that allyship, building, you know, getting men in to understand the barriers and how they're also impacted by those barriers. So it's really about this empathetic understanding of men. And it's not about, it's not we're taking stuff away from men, you know what I mean? Like it was about us, all of us, all of our boats rising together. So I found that really helpful. And even up to today, now I'm in El Paso, I'm still in contact with them if I kind of need, you know, just a friend to talk to, or even if I just am sometimes I really quiet in the WhatsApp group, but just to see these women succeeding is enough motivation to overcome the challenges I face on a daily basis. And then to your first, the first part of your question. Were you asking about what sort of things would look like? What's the specific role of business? So having worked in a number of different sectors, how can business in particular, as a sector, be a force for good? Again, as I said earlier, right, it's also sort of a, it's role modeling, what's society, what you expect from society. And if we keep talking about, oh, women should have equal rights, or we should give more opportunities for women, business has an opportunity to provide that, you know, almost like a vehicle of that sort of change. And in all the companies I work for, in all the industries I work for, I often tell the people I work with, we need to reflect the people that we serve. And if it's all just men, or you know, then it becomes, you're reflecting a certain type of demographic, and that's not representative of all the other markets that we serve. And so that's really the sort of the reason why business is helpful in that regard. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's such an important point. How do we reflect the people that we serve? How do we make sure that those voices are heard at the table? Which leads me nicely on to you, Nishma. So how do we also create cultures where people feel that they can bring their whole selves to work, and actually speak up and challenge others and, you know, feel comfortable raising their voice, if you like. So Nishma, perhaps you might want to just start a little bit sort of telling us where you are in your career, because like many, I think, if you started in communications, then looked in engagement and sustainability, tell us where you are now. And we'd love to get your reflections. There's a lot of talk these days about psychological safety. And I know that that was a big focus for you in your last role at the pharmaceutical rush. And we'd love to just get your reflections on why is that important if we're to ensure that we can lead change and lead successful innovations? Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, so you're right. So my background in my career, I started off in cons in PR. And then about eight years ago, was introduced to corporate responsibility. And it was then that I started recognizing just to your earlier point about how business can really be that force for good, how businesses can develop products and services that are commercially viable, but actually still really benefit society. And following that, I then made a complete career change about five years ago into my previous role, which was at Rosha, she said. And most recently there, I was leading corporate responsibility, well being in sustainability. And this is where I started to learn more about this concept of psychological safety. And this is a term that was really coined was initially coined a few years ago by behavioral scientists called Amy Edmondson. And at its highest level, it's defined by the by the belief that people in a team should be able to feel safe when taking risks. So essentially, this is about being able to feel like you can speak up, you can make decisions, you can take action, you can fail at something, but not feel scared about any potential repercussions. In fact, it's the opposite where if you do these things, speaking up and making decisions that you also demonstrate you're accountable for it, actually, that's also recognized and rewarded. And if this is done really well, like if it's done in a team, in a team where everyone is feeling safe and feeling like they have a role where they contribute, what this actually then intends the benefits of this is that it really starts encouraging that creativity, bold new ideas being created, really helping to unleash a team's potential. And really helps foster inclusion as well, because when you create this safe space in a team, what inadvertently what also happens is that people start having this whole sense of belonging, because they feel like they're part everyone's part of this decision making. So I guess my advice to anyone, if you're in a team, you're building a team, you're developing a team, really think about how can you create that safe space where everyone feels like they have a chance to contribute and feels like they belong. Yeah. I mean, it's one of those things that sounds absolutely wonderful, but I imagine it's much harder to build into practice, because effectively, you're trying to embed it into the culture. And we all know how difficult it is to change culture. When you look back at how you did that, what worked best, would you say? Where have you seen it work best? And I guess also then reflecting forward, you're in a new organisation now, you've only recently started at Legal and General. What are your tips for yourselves and others that might be in new roles? Like Janice has not been that long at Helena Troy. How can we as individuals bring that psychological safety to our teams? How do we model it? So yeah, this is something that it's definitely not going to happen overnight. And it also shouldn't be seen as an end goal. I don't think it's something, it's not something you reach and then you're done. It's almost like something that you have to nurture to really help embed it into the culture of an organisation. I think one of the things that's really key to psychological safety is communication. We all know how important communication is every day in our working life. In many teams, quite often communication can still just be top down, but it's also about not only thinking about two-way communication, but also almost side to side. So how can you encourage people in your teams to talk to one another, to share responsibility and to share that accountability for the decisions they're making as a team together? That's really important. One of the other things, and then how do you encourage that safety? How do you encourage people to feel safe in communicating with each other? How do you get your teams to feel like they're being heard and they're being listened to? How do you listen to your team members as well? And as I said, this takes time. So there are like practical steps that you can start implementing to kind of nurture this and to encourage this behaviour. I would say one of the first really is kind of that self-reflection. So as a team leader or as anyone who's really passionate about this area, how do you take some time to self-reflect and think about your own position? Are you demonstrating vulnerability? Because that's really important. It's important to be open and honest with yourself as well as with your team members so you can encourage them to, you know, that it's okay to share vulnerability and to behave in this way as well. One of the other things that's really important is to talk about failure and it's something, you know, I remember for many years feeling really petrified if I had, if something had gone wrong, partly that's also the perfectionist in me, but, you know, we're human. No one is perfect and the only way we're going to continue to grow and develop is if we not only learn, we often hear about learning from our mistakes, but we've got to share those mistakes as well. So as a group in your team, you can learn together, share together and move on together as well. So I think the second part of your question was about my new role. So yes, I recently joined Legal in general, which is financial services organisation in the UK. I've just joined the sustainability team and I'm only one month in and I think I've already seen actually how difficult it can be to be yourself and be really authentic when you're new because you're still trying to, you know, you're meeting new people, you're trying to understand the culture, this new culture, but I think one thing that I've learned is just try and be yourself from the outset. I know from experience when you try and be someone that you're not, it's not going to last very long. So, you know, whatever your natural style is, you know, if you're an, I'm an introvert for many years, I thought that was something wrong in being an introvert and now I see it as a strength. So I guess my advice is, yeah, wherever you are in your career, if you're someone new, if you've been somewhere for a long time, just definitely always be yourself, be authentic because it will encourage others around you to be that way as well. Yeah, that's brilliant advice, Nishmene. It's interesting, isn't it? Like when we go through these transitions, how it really puts into sharp focus, you know, the practices that can support us or also perhaps the things that, you know, kind of trip us up. And I think it's interesting in women needing change, we look at sort of masculine and feminine leadership traits and obviously both men and women can have both. And I think, you know, we've seen this clear evolution from the old days of the, that old kind of hero leader model, which was, I have all the answers and you will just follow me as opposed to, well, what do we think? You know, how might we approach that together? Because actually, of course, we don't have the answers, the world is complex, it's changing, you know, it's volatile, ambiguous, uncertain. And we can only come up with new interesting solutions if we're listening to all voices and bringing some of these other voices to the table. So thank you for that, Nishmene. I'd love to invite Rav into the conversation if she's here. I think she looks like she might have just dropped off. But hopefully, Rav will be, you are there, Rav, just speak up, I can't see you. So Rav will hopefully be bringing the perspective of, you know, particularly her work with women in STEM professions. But perhaps, Janice, I can come to you on this. As a woman who started in STEM, you talked about starting off as an environmental scientist and that's obviously been a strong outlook for you. Just curious to know, you talked about how you had to sort of, in a way, peel back some of those unhelpful narratives about how you thought you were supposed to be and what you were hearing from society in terms of expectations of girls. What would be your advice? I mean, it seems to me when you look at the numbers, we have so far to go. If you look at the numbers of women in STEM roles in engineering, in technology, how can we really start to build momentum there? What's your personal experience? Yeah. I mean, growing up, I was very lucky that my mom was adamant that I was not going to believe the narrative. My mom wanted to be a scientist and she was of that generation where she was stopped. I think that that moment when she had me, she was like, I'm not going to let that happen to my daughter. Yeah. My mother, every time I'd come home and I'd be like, the boys said I can't do this or the teacher said I can't do that. She would immediately be like, don't believe them. You can be whatever you want. She was my hype girl, my mom. And I think that now we're in that a lot. I don't know if a lot of people are listening in are either mothers or aunts or sort of the older person in a younger person's life. I would highly recommend that you be that person cheerleading that other girl. I grew up not seeing any STEM role models in women at all. So it was very difficult to say I could do that. There was no one I could look up. Maybe, okay, Rachel Carson, that was it. But that was in the 60s. And I wasn't born in the 60s. And it was very challenging. But as I said, having a support system, particularly my mom who believed that I could do anything that I set my mind to, and I know it sounds very cheesy to say that, but it really helped because there are going to be lots of times where I was the only woman in the classroom. Or as an environmental scientist, you had to go to these places like take samples in a lake, go to a landfill. And immediately my teachers would assume that, oh, you need an excuse letter because you don't want to do this. Even women teachers would make these assumptions. And I know it is coming from a place of love. I often tell myself that. But I've had to have the courage to say, no, I actually want to do this. And not be bothered. I'd come back to going to a landfill and I had a class. And I had to know going to class and I'd smell like a landfill. And I'd go to college at a college class and everybody would look at me. And even at that young age, I was already telling myself like, you know, don't believe the narrative. I didn't quite say it that way. But it's there's a level of strength. Yeah. And knowing that you had, as Nishma said, you really had to find and accept who you are and be who you are. Is Zoe still there? I think she might be frozen. Yeah. I was just going to add Janice as well when I used to work with a lot of kids in schools in my previous role for a pharmaceutical company. And one of the things that I also realised is that STEM opens up so many doors and has so many opportunities. But the perceptions that are still held of what a Korean STEM looks like are actually quite, they're really outdated. So a lot of kids thought your only option, if you're interested in science or healthcare, is to be a doctor or a nurse or a dentist. And that existed when I was at school, which was many years ago. And those some of those opinions and views just they haven't moved on. And so I think there's such a big role that not only teachers and education systems can play, but also businesses can play to really show to show kids, you know, young adults, what opportunities there are beyond once school finishes. Because if you don't see it as well, if you're not exposed to it, it's very difficult to make some of those relevant education choices you might need to make, you know, when you're kind of going through the system at school and at university or further education. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I mean, there's a lot of resources out there. There's a Netflix film called Women Who Look Like Scientists and just being able to relate, right? Like I can do that. Yeah, I've had a lot of young girls come up to me and say I never knew that this was a career. Like I was always thought it was being a doctor or a nurse. And yeah, and so I've been I've been part of these initiatives just to show other girls, young girls, what are the possibilities and and because when they they see it in someone they're like, oh, I could do. I think the most important thing not just to visually see it to name it, like, oh, I can be fill in the blank, whatever that thing is, right, a computer engineer or this. Yeah, so that's yeah, definitely. And I can see how businesses would support that. Yeah. Yeah, I think the role model part is so important. And it's so wonderful to hear how you had your mom as your role model. But, you know, if people don't have that almost looking outside of their household as well to see who could potentially be that role model. But also if you take it, if we take it one step further, like from school into the workplace, again, role models are so critical to demonstrating the change that you can make and not being female, you know, not letting that be a barrier. And yeah, those were what I've always found is those those role models just having people that you aspire to, you know, that you can learn from that that will help you along the way as well is really important. Right. Yeah. And I think it goes beyond just STEM, right? Like a lot of the industries that I mean, the ones I used to work in once you're working in right now are mostly there are a lot of men in senior leadership. And being able to kind of point out, like, you know, we're open to different types of people. It doesn't need to be just one certain type of person. And to be and to be actually see it, you know, I've, you know, as I said, when I was in the even aviation industry, I was so excited when I saw female pilot, like, I couldn't believe it. And and I would almost be like, I, it would almost be all like seeking a sister and say, how did you, how did you overcome this? Because I know how, how challenging it is, right, to be in that in that sort of really male dominated fields. And there's another one I used to be in real estate with construction. That's another. Yeah, right? Like, yeah, that's tough. Yeah. And I would always be so curious and interested to know, like, how did you guys overcome this? This is not easy. I can only imagine, you know, what you guys have overcome. Hi, Zoe. Hi, Zoe. Oh, I think we lost her. Hello, everybody. Just. Okay. Go ahead. We can't hear you. Apologies, just to prove that we are live. That's never happened to me before. So I decided to drop what joy, but I'm glad you're having a lovely conversation, the two of you. Great. So, so where did we get to I so I wonder if we could sort of go full circle. We've kind of started at the sort of, you know, the role of business. We've talked about organizations and teams and culture. And Janice, you've alluded to it a couple of times, you know, how we know how we can, you know, the importance of having our sort of support bench if you like. And really curious to touch on now sort of a personal level. Now, how can we best build our confidence and resilience? It was interesting when we interviewing the sort of 30 plus contributors for the course. And one of the things that they talked about, you know, was what would they wish they'd done differently or what would their advice be? And it was always be bolder, be bigger, more courageous, ask for more. So Nishma, I'm curious, how do how do you build your resilience and your confidence? What's worked for you when you think back of your career? Yeah, so for many years, when I look back, I almost wish that certain traits I have, I didn't see them as a negative, which I kind of mentioned before. So, you know, I am an introvert and in a when you're in PR, it is mainly full of extroverts. So you feel like the odd one out and you feel, yeah, you're different. You just feel like you're different. And you can sort of tell by my voice, it's quite softly spoken. So for many years, I thought you had to have yet to be really assertive, yet to be really aggressive, to get far, you know, to get far in your career. And it was over the last few years where I've really learned to embrace those natural characteristics of mine, like, you know, I can't change the sound of my voice. And just really learn to embrace it. And I think just having that ability to see it as a strength, like turn it around and use it to your advantage. If there's anything that your feeling is holding you back, I think my advice would be to really take that time to reflect and see how you can turn it around. Because you were all unique, that's what makes us different. So use that as a way to kind of stand out in the crowd as well. Yeah, no, I think that's, I think that's great advice. And on the flip side of that, as someone who is an extrovert, you know, I've often felt self conscious about that. You know, I worked in San Francisco for a number of years. And I remember when I moved back to the UK, it was like, oh, my God, you're such a cheerleader. You're so you have to be so big and noisy. So I think it's, you know, how do we embrace those qualities? So Janice, you asked to specifically talk about imposter syndrome in the course, which really surprised me. So and you talked about a number of ways that you've addressed that. So talk about that. How does that show up for you? And what what techniques do you use to support you with that? So very much like Nishma, I know as though you will not believe it, I am an introvert. And that's just on my natural state of being. And I very similar to Nishma, I was told that that's not good enough. Like, why are you so quiet? Why can't you tell me what you think now? And I'm like, because I'm thinking like, I don't know how to explain it. And, and that's really a lot where a lot of my imposter syndrome came from, because I was told again, with a different narrative, you're like, okay, you're great, you're great as a woman, but you're not really speaking up. And I'm like, I need time to think. And what I've learned is, and there was moment in my career where I tried to live up to other people's expectations or definitions of how I should behave. And it really exhausted me. And I think Nishma will agree, it's very exhausting to try to be an extrovert. And, and so what I've done is got into meditation, I've done a lot, I've been meditating for seven, eight years now. I don't know if I mentioned as well, Zoe, that I exercise, I train, that's the term I use, I train five days a week, like CrossFit type, like I do 50 burpees, that that type, I weight lift. And part of that is just to remind myself of what I can do. It's just me reminding myself that a lot of the things that are holding me back are just in my mind. And a lot of the, and I have a choice to accept the narrative that's given to me, I can say it's almost like a RSVP to a party, like somebody saying to you, Janice, this is who you are. And you're given a choice, people feel like I don't have a choice, but you actually have a choice, you can like, in clueless, you can RSVP to a party or not. So I choose, and so now I choose not to believe and not to RSVP to my own imposter syndrome party. And I do that to, you know, just reminding myself of the things I'm capable of. And as I said, a lot of that comes from meditation and, you know, just training, doing a lot of cross-training. Yeah, I love the anecdote you gave in the interview, which was no way you'd like turn up in a meeting going around the room and go, I bet I'm the only person who has done a hundred burpees before. Empowering when I go into a room or a virtual room thinking that way, like, I'm sure I'm the only one who's done this. So it just breaks my imposter syndrome. If I can add to that, sorry. Yeah, if I can just add to that as well, because I struggled with imposter syndrome for many years and it didn't actually affect me till I'd been working for around 12, 13, no more than that, about 13, 14 years. So that's kind of when it hit me and I didn't even realize it was a thing. I didn't realize there was a term for it. I just constantly felt like one day I was going to get found out. And it was that feeling was like this weight on my shoulders for quite a long time until it was recognized actually by my manager. And then it kind of felt like, oh, I can talk about this. But the one thing that's actually helped me as well is just realizing that what used to really hold me back is when somebody asked me a question, particularly senior leader, and I'd feel like I have to have the answer because if I didn't have the answer, clearly I wasn't good enough. And I think one thing that's really helped me is just realizing you cannot possibly know everything. You cannot have the answer to everything all the time. And it's okay to say, I don't know. I don't have the answer. But I'm going to go away and look into it for you and I'll come back to you. And then it helps. I think, Janice, I'm probably right to say you're a reflector like me as well. And then it kind of helps that kind of being able to go away, reflect, think about your response and go back. But definitely don't always feel like you have to have all the answers because it's just not possible. Yeah. And I think the sort of extension of that is that you probably know more about your topic than other people in the room. And sometimes we can psych ourselves up by over-preparing and then fixating on the things that we forgot to mention. No one else knows the things that we've forgotten to mention. So that's great advice. And I think certainly from my perspective, I think certain industries, well, I know that I can get a little bit, sometimes being very last minute can be a real kind of an adrenaline piece. But actually, if I want to be my best, it's how can I prepare? How can I turn up on time? So some of those basics. So I would love to have questions and comments from people listening in. One question that we have had that I want to put you to both of you. And then I'll look at some of the other questions is, do you think businesses are open to women as leaders? And it's interesting. Again, if we look at the facts, we know that only 6% of the FTSE 100, only 6% of the Fortune 500 CEOs are women. So the data is not good. And actually, again, Janice, you talked earlier about the impact of the pandemic. I think that's had a disproportionately heavy impact on women as well. So what's the answer to that? Do we think businesses that open to women as leaders? Janice, I'll turn to you first. Yeah, more so now than ever before in my career. I think a lot of businesses are on breaking up and have already been in the past few years. They understand that they need women and they need different types of people, not just women. We're talking about overall diversity. They're very interested in that. And I've never seen such an openness. And again, as I said earlier, I've learned not to ask permission. Like, I just go and open the door and you'll find out, you'll be like, you almost like psych yourself out like the door is not open. The door is not open. And so you don't open it. You're like, because you're worried that if it is locked and you're like, oh, then it is locked. And wow, that's what's so humiliating. But then you find out that actually the door is open. You just need to kind of, you know, you can't wait for other people to open it for you. And so I learned, I learned that and I say that as an introvert. It is very tough. You psych yourself out like, okay, the door is closed, the door is closed. And then I realized, oh, actually, it's a jar. It's open. I just have to push it. Yeah, again, we had a lovely analogy from an incredible woman who's on a webinar we did a couple of weeks ago. So her name's Perna Sen and she was Deputy Director of Policy for You and Women. And she said, sometimes we need to decide what our role is. No, sometimes we need to be the person that kicks the door down. And sometimes we are the person that follows through after someone else has made that effort. No, and I think often it starts with just asking, asking the questions. What's your experience, Nishma, in terms of, you know, is it are we ready? Do we think businesses are open to women as leaders? Yeah, so like Janice, I would tell you absolutely. And I've definitely experienced that in the recent with the recent organizations I've been employed with and they, you know, kind of all been quite big brands. But it isn't just about women as well, they're really open to change with embracing diversity in all the different forms that diversity comes in. And, you know, where I work at the moment, legal in general, part of the organization is called Legal and General Investment Management. They're an investor and they've actually made really bold commitments in this place where they won't invest in other organizations that haven't got a diverse board, like a ethnically diverse board. So you can really see it's this businesses are really pushing other businesses as well to kind of drive their change. And ultimately, you know, it's kind of, as we know, it's good business practice. But I think businesses also just realize they're losing out on so much untat potential in terms of talent, if they don't really start making change and getting this right. Yeah, absolutely. And another question that we've had, which I think is a really is a super question. And I think ties back in the whole psychological safety piece is how do you bring your whole self to the interview process? And indeed, your indeed your job. They're bringing bringing the personal aspects through. And I know that you talked about a particular technique that you had with your teams, or you had a big diverse teams at Roche. So any thoughts on that? And again, you've both been through the interview process recently. What was that like? And perhaps how be interesting to reflect on, how is it different this time around to say 15 years ago when you were going for perhaps one of your first jobs? Nishman, do you want to kick off? Yeah. So funnily enough, there was something I did really differently in my most recent interview, which was one I was just really, really honest about what I couldn't do. And everyone might be familiar with the way the difference between men and women and how they respond to job ads. And this is statistic. I kind of don't know what the exact number is, but something like 80% men will be 80%. They'll look at it and think, right, if I can't do 80% of it, that's fine. I'm going to go for it anyway, whereas women will feel this need to tick every single box from that job description. And when I was in the interview for Leading General, I actually openly said, I cannot tick every box on your job brief. But why would you want someone that can? Because they're going to come in, do everything and just be bored. Whereas for me, and I said, I can't tick every box, but I'm willing to learn. And that's what you'll get from me. This will appetite to learn and grow and develop, because this really is an opportunity for development. So I think my learning was just really be yourself. And I know it sounds quite a cliche or quite obvious, but it's actually quite difficult, particularly in an interview process. And most of them are virtual right now as well. So you don't get a sense of body language in the same way. But just trying to be yourself and recognizing it's a two way thing. It's not just you selling yourself. The employers got to sell them themselves as well, because you've got to fit each other. So be yourself. And if you don't get it, then there's nothing else you could have done in that situation. Yeah, that's great. And actually, the statistic is, because I use it in some of my work, men will apply for a job if they've got 60% of the qualifications, women will apply for job if they've got 100% of the qualifications. And of course, one of the really interesting trends we're experiencing at the moment, people are calling it the great resignation, you know, this huge sort of reassessment of what kind of work do I want to do? How is it aligned to my values? You know, where do I want to spend my time over the last couple of years? I mean, it's absolutely remarkable, the record levels of people that have been voluntary changing jobs. So you're absolutely right. It is a two way conversation and starting with actually, they'd be lucky to have me look all the assets I'm bringing, and you want me to be learning on the job as well. How about you, Janice? What were some of your insights? And I think Rav might have sound. So I'll come to her after I've heard from you. Yeah, as I said, it's a mindset shift, right? Like you were led to believe that you had to show, you had to be a certain different person in an interview. And similarly, like Nishma, I thought like, and what you just said, Zoe, I just, I really had to change the narrative in my brain and say, I have something to offer. And if this is not going to work out, it's okay. Again, my, I love analogies as you know, so my analogy was like, it's almost like dating. If this person is not going to like you, then it's better to know now, then be miserable, six months down the line. You know what I mean? Like you don't want to be in a relationship. And that's what work is in a company. It is having a relationship with someone. It may not be a person, but it's a set of people. And if they're not going to accept you for who you are, when you show them who you are during the interview, it's going to be pretty miserable when you're there for longer, right? So I, it took a while, it really, really took a while for me to understand that this is also about the company selling themselves to me, because we're always thinking it's me selling myself. And once you do, when you think that way, immediately you're going to think, what can I do to get this, right? Like it's, it's that. Yeah. That's my advice. Super. Thank you for that. Rav, can you hear us? If so, please speak. I can see you and I can see your microphone, but I'm not hearing you. That's a shame. Oh, well, we're trying very, very hard. So, the irony is our champion of women in technology who's having the issue, but, but do keep trying. So what are you most proud of? And perhaps it might, perhaps it might be successful collaborations, successful partnerships. And what were the qualities that you brought to that that made it successful? You know, maybe it was the success of a campaign or initiative or a team. Nishma, starting with you. I think in my old role, when I worked for Ros in the UK, it was just making positive change and a positive difference. You know, having the opportunity to do that every day, which is why I'm so passionate about the area I work in now, but really having the ability to make, to make that change will also have a, being able to influence a change in culture there as well, particularly like, you know, in the area of sustainability and well being and helping to drive. It wasn't just me, but working with people to drive things like psychological safety. I was responsible for the mental health strategy and trying to embed that into the organization as well. So yeah, I think just generally being able to influence as much as I was able to my previous role is definitely huge success for me. Yeah, that's great. And how, how cool to be responsible for mental health and having well being in your title as well. Really, really interesting. How about you, Janice? What are you most proud of? And what is there still to achieve for you? Because I know that you are an achiever. Yeah, I call my life pre-children, my PC and my post-children era and my pre-children era. And one of them was the one before I had children. I was working on a mathematical model for the aviation industry, an economic model. And it just sort of ties into the STEM. And I remember having these conversations with a lot of people who are older than me, again, in the aviation industry, very male dominated. And I remember being in Chicago and then explaining it. And I wish there was no, there's no, I mean, maybe there were iPhones, maybe iPhone one. I have no idea. I wish I'd taken a photo of them looking at me, because they were the same age as my dad. And having that conversation and sharing with them, and they were challenging my math skills, which you know, Zoe, I would rather go and do a calculus problem than go to a networking party, like seriously. But they did not know this. The room did not know this. So I was so in my element. And even up to today, when I see how the aviation industry has used that work I've done, just, I could not believe that I did it. And I can't believe I was pregnant with my daughter, my eldest at that time. And I look back and think, like, wow, like, I can't believe I had so much courage. Like, who was that woman? And then the other part, obviously, I'm always going to say, I'm always going to say motherhood is one of still will be my greatest achievement at the end of the day. Because to raise children in a world that is changing so rapidly, and constantly reminding both my daughter, of course, with all these, you know, women empowerment principles, but also raising a son who understands that his identity as a male does not have to be what society tells him. Because a lot of it is also about high, our very high expectations of men as well. And that can also, we don't talk a lot about that. So I know we, we will in the course, in this course, but it's, you know, as a mom, I understand now, and I'm married to an amazing guy. And, and when I look at it, I think the great, it's a great, it's a great thing that my husband doesn't feel intimidated. But what I want to achieve and what I've achieved. And again, he's been a part of that support system. And I want my son to be that to whoever his partner is going to be when he grows up, right? So that I'm not quite that is the achievement I'm trying to meet Zoe. I talked to me in 40 years and I'll let you know if I need it. Oh, I love it. That's absolutely brilliant. Fantastic. And I think that's, that's so good. So just, I just, I'm just being sent some of the other questions that we've got. So one of the participants said, I noticed that most of the participants this webinar are female sustainability managers. It would be interesting to have HR numbers by sectors, for example, in male dominated industries. I wonder how we can address the environmental female mental burden and still be change leaders. What are your, what are your thoughts and experience about that? So I think perhaps it's talking to top tips again really for around, around resilience. I think, I think I've got that but do please clarify in the chat if I've not quite got that right. Any, any different ways that you've behaved when you've been in sort of more male dominated industries to use the language of the questioner and what have you just taken forward perhaps as best practice in terms of, you know, how to succeed, how to be your best. I don't use the succeed language. Any thoughts, Janice, from aviation to hospitality to. Yeah, a lot of men have daughters. And I, yeah, as I said, I'm always about commonality because again, being an introvert is just the easiest way to connect. And, you know, when I use the introversion, it's more because I'm very observant of other people. I just like to sit and observe and I realize that a lot of the men I work with have daughters. And that's sort of how I make the connection. And I'm like, Hey, you know, and I don't quite say like, Hey, help me so that you can help your daughter. It was more like I already realized that there's a soft part in their heart for someone like me. And in some ways, a lot of the mentors I've had in my life were men who wanted to build a better world for their own daughters and even their sons, because they realized that, you know, my son can't have the burden of taking care of the family. And I'm talking about from a work perspective, not just from a chore perspective. And a lot of these men, I notice have a level of empathy. A lot of them are scared about, you know, for those who have daughters, they're really worried about the world that their daughters are getting into. And so that's, I really connect with a lot of other people I work with in that role. So a lot of, even in a male dominated industry, and we use that, right? But in reality, if you look at the back behind the scenes, a lot of them have women in their lives. And it's really through that that I connect and I ask for mentorship. Again, ask, ask, ask. You don't get, if you just sit there and almost like in a party and waiting for someone to say, Hey, talk to you, you can't, no one's going to do that. So you're going to have to go up and take and gain the courage to ask. And I'd say 99.9% of the time I get a yes. The only time I got a no is was like, this person was mentoring so many other women. So I felt like, okay, that's good enough. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really interesting. I think it's like how, how do we build inclusive cultures? Because one of our contributors in the women needing change course was a man who'd worked in sort of automotive industries most of his life. And it's actually, no, toxic cultures are toxic for most men as well, if they're not an alpha male. So recognizing, you know, actually, it's around how do we build inclusivity? And how do we build that sense of psychological safety so that people can bring their whole selves? So we're coming towards the end. Keep an eye in terms of if there's any other questions. Nishma, I loved, I wanted to ask you to share your top tip when it comes to leading teams, which I now, I must admit, I've just stolen your your tuning idea, because I think it, you know, when it comes to building psychologically safe cultures, it's just such a simple, practical way of modeling that. And I was wondering if you could share that. Yes, this is a really simple technique that was done at Roche, my previous employer, and done by teams like Roche is a global organization. And it was done like in many places all around the world. And it's called a tuning. And it was to start every meeting with a really simple tuning, which is a, how are you? And is there anything preventing you from being fully present in this meeting today? And it just gives everyone the chance to share, like, you know, particularly when we went into lockdown, and you could be well, when you might have had kids, because you're, you know, in the UK, or many places, schools were closed, you could have had kids in the background, you're waiting for a delivery. It could be anything, any, just a chance for you to say, you know what, at in 30 minutes time, I'm expecting a delivery, so I'm going to have to just nip out for two minutes and come back again, without having those sorts of thoughts way on your mind. It gives you a chance to share what's on your mind so that you can fully focus on that meeting. Or if something is preventing you from focusing because something's on your mind, actually just share that because it's amazing what relief almost that can do, that can be as well. So it's really simple. You go right around the table with a quick tune. And the most important thing is, is to be open yourself. So if you are feeling, for whatever reason, you know, something's bothering you, something's troubling you, as someone who's driving that meeting, leading the meeting, you've got to be honest with your team for it to be reciprocated as well. Yeah, I think that's a great idea. And I often will use that. So if I'm in a workshop, I might say, you know, I'm slightly nervous about this bit. You know, I've not, this is the first time I've done it. So I'm really curious to see how it lands. And I think also in an online environment, just just calling out what we're seeing, you know, with energy levels, if it's our team, it's like, you know, everyone's gone really quiet. Do we need to take a break? But what's going on? How about you, Janice? What would be your your key advice, perhaps, but for others, you know, particularly, how do we flourish in this kind of, you know, hybrid world or predominantly virtual world? Right. Yeah, it goes back to what I said earlier. And I think Nishma probably touched it on on it as well. It's again, how no matter, it's still very cliche to say this, but be your authentic self. And as I said, you get when people offer you a story or a narrative about yourself, you, if you know who you are, and this is where my meditation practice comes in, if mindfulness practice comes, if you, you are the expert of yourself. And if somebody comes in and says, you know what, I know, Janice, more than you do, you're going to be like, are you sure? And, and that's almost like a reminder to yourself, like you get to choose the narratives that are thrown at you, because you know who you are. And it is a very, I'd say very, very tough to get to that point in your life, because as women and as young girls, when we were young girls back then, we were told a very different narrative. And it's really just unlearning that it is, I have to say it was very painful and I really struggled. But the moment when I had like, I get to choose, I get to accept the narrative or and I was, that's really when that level of empowerment, that's when I started working on the imposter syndrome, it really opened so many doors, both literally and figuratively for me in my mind at work. Yeah, brilliant. Thank you, Janice. I think, I think that's a great point on which to end. So, Nishima Janice, thank you both for the conversation today. You both are featured in our women leading change, which makes its first outing on March the second. Just a reminder that we're, we're looking at leadership from both a systemic perspective, you know, what are the, what are the, some of our big levers for change at an organisational team level and then an individual level. And I think we've touched on all of those today. And also a reminder that we had a webinar a couple of weeks ago with some of our other wonderful contributors that if you've enjoyed this conversation, you can check out that as well. So, thank you for joining us live today. Thank you if you're watching the recording. Apologies for our few technical issues. Hopefully we'll, we might even have smoothed some of those out with the recording and look forward to seeing you hopefully on the course. So continuing the conversation. Thank you both very much. And for a great conversation, it's been wonderful chatting to you today. And thank you everyone who's joined us. Thank you. Thank you.