 What kind of mindset do you have in your engineering career and how is it affecting your results in today's episode? I'm going to be joined by Jeff Perry the founder of more than engineering a leadership and career coach for engineers and Jeff is going to talk all about different Mindsets and how they will affect your results both in your career and your life And Jeff is also going to be taking over as host of the engineering career coach Podcast going forward. So we're going to get into all of that We're going to give you some real steps that you can take to improve your mindset and improve your career. Let's do it All right, now I'd like to welcome our guest on to the podcast today Jeff Perry Jeff is the founder of more than engineering. He's a leadership and career coach for engineers and Jeff welcome to the engineering career coach podcast Thanks, Anthony glad to be here so as I mentioned to All of you earlier on Jeff's going to be coming host to the show We're excited to have him and we'll get into that with him a little bit later on Really excited about that. But first of all, Jeff Let's talk a little bit about what you do today on a daily basis because it's different than what a lot of engineers do in the engineering side of things Yeah, totally. So as you mentioned Anthony, I I do leadership and career coaching for engineers and tech workers My personal background Technically is in mechanical engineering I did software development for a number of years and then manufacturing process improvement as well So those are kind of the industries and the technology Engineers that I focus on in my coaching work, but I've worked with people in many different industries It really comes down to helping other people reach their goals, right? So sometimes that's working with people engineers who are trying to work on getting a promotion or Being more effective in a new leadership role that they're in or trying to make a job transition To something that maybe is more fulfilling or aligned with where they want to go in their careers So I really love starting from the foundation of helping people get clarity on the values that they care about the motivations They have for their career and where they want to go So that they're building careers based on positivity and authenticity So I do this in a lot of different ways one-on-one coaching primarily right now and have done some group coaching work and Just in the process of launching a new course on career development as well That's great. And was it something for you in your career that pushed you in this direction or was it just something that you wanted to do? How did you kind of make that transition? Yeah, totally. So It really started with a lot of the things that we're going to talk about here today based on mindsets and I had Opportunities when I was in my corporate career where in addition to my technical work I got opportunities to do a lot of coaching and training inside of my companies and developing Programs to help teams work more effectively doing some one-on-one coaching with with leaders and others and that kind of Unlocked a piece of me that I found that I just loved doing that work more than anything else that I did even technically I loved delivering and and designing technical innovation stuff and and that was a lot of fun for me process improvement I loved and looking at the data and Improving things but what really came down to is where I found my most joy at work was when I could really feel like I was helping Develop other people and so now I like to say that I develop people rather than develop products and systems now That's great. And you mentioned Mindset, so let's transition into that. That's what we want to talk about today You believe Jeff that mindsets are the key to career and personal growth. How do you define mindsets? Yeah, so Kind of going back to my story I'm not exaggerating when I say that coming to learn about mindsets over the last few years Has really changed my life and it was really working with other consultants Teaching mindset-based leadership principles that really unlocked this love of teaching and training and coaching That really led me to doing what I'm doing right now. So what mindsets are and The principles of mindsets have kind of grown in popularity and awareness over the years And you can define them in a number of different ways There are a couple of analogies that I really like to use when I describe them So one way I would describe mindsets is it's kind of like the lenses Through which we see the world and the people around us So if you think about having glasses or contacts if you were to have a prescription that is not correct Then it could take even a beautiful scene You could see if you're out in nature or something like that and it could distort it and make you make it Unclear or if the lenses were scratched or something too And so this is like a bad mindset or negative mindset that can distort how we see the people the challenges and the opportunities that we face in our lives Conversely having a clear lens with a right prescription That's crafted just for us allows us to be able to see clearly what we are faced with and move through it more effectively So that's one analogy that I that I like to use is kind of those lenses another analogy could be thinking of like a computer operating system almost like computers and their software are constantly getting inputs from us and and then things are output and Something as simple as typing in a letter on your keyboard If I type the letter a then I expect my word processor or something to put out a but if there's a virus in The computer or in the system or in the software that can turn even a good input something You know good data that goes into a software and it could turn it into a bad output something That's incorrect or untrue because of the virus that's there and that's like a bad mindset Whereas having good mindsets means that good inputs equal good outputs bad inputs equal bad outputs We're getting the truth about that. So positive mindsets really help us see and experience the truth about ourselves and the world and buying and bad mindsets Distort what we see and even encourage us to sometimes deceive ourselves in different ways Interesting and really good analogies. I think to help kind of you know, wrap your head around You know what that word means and how it can certainly Help or hurt your efforts on a regular basis and let's talk about that a little bit kind of next here How can mindsets Jeff fuel behavior or and which you know ultimately of course your behavior fuels your results Really the mindsets are fueling or tying to results talk about a little bit how those mindsets then you know Can get spilled over into your career in your life Yeah, so what we believe, you know our mindsets really drive what we do and what we then do drives the results and the Consequences that we get in life. So but my but mindsets are really at the foundation of that So the to use a visual to think of like a pyramid that has three sections Where you've got the mindsets as the foundation the base and then that's the foundation for the actions and the behaviors that we take Which leads then to the results that we get in life So often in our lives We're trying to change something or maybe reach a new goal that we have or something like that And so we're trying to shift our results from you know, what we currently have to a new objective, right? And the common way that individuals or often organizations Go about trying to make that change is starting to prescribe all of the things that we need to do differently So we talk about new processes new habits new skills that we need to have and those are all important things to do But if we neglect also to work on our mindsets what we believe right then Um How we and how we need to think differently then we're going to shift those behaviors But our mindsets are going to be back where they were kind of wanting to maintain Maintain the status quo and they get left behind and often that's going to pull us back Our actual behaviors that we've said hey, these are all the new things we need to do to meet our new goal Well, if we neglect our mindsets our mindsets are going to pull us right back to where we were before So if we can actually first shift and work on our mindsets what we believe and think Then our new actions and behaviors are going to be shifted with that mindset on a more solid foundation We're going to be much more sustainable to reach those new goals that we have Yeah, that's that's very powerful when you think through that and I have a kind of a personal story or example of that as well I think I've mentioned this on the podcast before but I read the book a while ago called zen in the art of happiness Which is by a guy named chris princess, which is a really good book and he mentions in it you know one of the key philosophies of zen is Everything that happens to you is the best possible thing that can happen to you and basically When I read that book, I started to adopt that philosophy a little bit and what it does is it whenever something happened to me Even though many people might have seen it as quote-unquote bad My outlook was well this happened to me for something some positive reason What can I draw from that and that's what I've been able to do and I think that some what that has done for me Actually in some what may have looked like bad situations even for emi We've be able to create big opportunities out of those situations and so really speaks to jeff's What jeff's saying about mindsets is that the mindset that you have will dictate your outcomes and your results because if I Didn't have that mindset I wouldn't have looked for some of the opportunities in these not so good situations and so You know keep that in mind When you create kind of a philosophy whether it's a life or a career philosophy that's driven by your mindsets It's going to dictate your actions or your responses to the things that happen to you And that really means everything I mean cut and dry it fuels your results as jeff said Um, so let's let's go there next jeff. What are some of the different places where mindsets might play out Yeah, so really it's everywhere anthony think about in work if we're going through a job search if we have You know personal life challenges interactions with with people personal relations at home. It's it's really everywhere So just to give a few examples Um when I worked in my corporate job We were constantly updating and adjusting internal processes, right? We're trying to improve things and sometimes when new changes were presented especially if I was part of Presenting and the idea then I would agree with those changes but sometimes there were changes that were brought to me that I didn't agree with And whether or not I initially agreed there's a huge difference in how effective it was for me and my team Based on how I approached that situation And that's especially if I disagreed right so if I agreed it was pretty easy I was on board and I tried to do everything I could to get others on board And make it as successful as possible. But when I disagreed I could either dig my heels in and try and convince people that What we were doing was wrong and I was right or I could or Take the opposite approach and really seek to understand the issue better Understand why we were making this change what was necessary and why people had come to that come to that decision And I could decide that even if I didn't agree what was best for the company Was for me to work to make the change successful And obviously I exhibited both of those Spectrums in in my career In either helping things go forward or trying to dig my heels in For people who and there are a lot nowadays because of a large unemployment these days Who are in a job or out of a job or in a job transition? They can often look at every know that they might get when applying or trying to network with people As a failure or direct knock on who they are as a person and and their personal worth And it kind of goes to what you are seeing the challenges that you face at EMI or in your career This could be a negative mindset. But sometimes if you you could dive too deep into that and Really take that heavy upon ourselves and just get discouraged by those challenges, right? But if instead they can look for each one of those setbacks as an opportunity as you said to learn and grow And that changes things that Helps them keep getting better and improving through each interaction each opportunity Rather than getting more discouraged and that's true of just about any challenge that we face in life, right? Thinking about also in a more personal situation personal interactions mindsets can really fuel how we See other people and we can get into this more later, but Thinking about for me. Do I see people in my life? Certainly in my home my wife and my kids Or or at work as just objects that I can get something out of right because I need them to do something for me or Maybe I see them as an object that they're in my way. They're an obstacle in my way, you know And so I get really discouraged and resentful about them Or can I see other people not as objects, but as people? That matter like I matter and I can care deeply that they have needs and challenges Just like I do and I can take that into account as I interact with them So truly our mindsets can really fuel everything we do Which is why it's such an important lifelong pursuit to continue to develop these more positive mindsets throughout our lives That's great. Just to go a little bit deeper on that to give some kind of more examples. Maybe you could talk a little bit about mindsets pairs Yeah, so One of the things about mindsets is that we can put them into pairs or or couples That that we can then rate ourselves on a scale if we were doing like a Mindset assessment or something like that and and it's you could say, you know One to ten or think about it as a continuum and it's very different from Kind of classic personality tests that kind of declare To us that this is who we are and so you have to adjust your life given, you know, what the test says I don't buy that so much from the personality test standpoint anymore I kind of used to but if you take a mindset assessment Then what you get is a score of where you're at now. It's kind of like a snapshot But what you Hope that it does is that it gives you an understanding of where you can continue to grow and change It's a moment in time and then you can take actions to improve And so usually you're doing this in terms of these mindset pairs and there are a lot out there that we could talk about recently I connected with a Researcher and a consultant named ryan godforson Who he put together a group of four mindset pairs that I think are pretty comprehensive That we can kind of talk through And each one of these we could talk about in more depth, but I'll just give a quick overview here So the first is probably the most well known And that's the growth mindset versus a fixed mindset And this is made popular by a viral ted talk and a related book on mindset given by carol dweck And this is really about If we view our own and other people in our lives our ability to continue to grow and develop Or do we think that we have fixed traits of our talents our abilities our iq perhaps That we really can't break break out of right and so obviously taking a growth mindset And believing that we can continue to grow and improve is much more positive And it helps us believe that we can improve with focused effort and hard work And so that's just one the growth versus the fixed mindset The next mindset pair Is having an open mindset versus a closed mindset So it's kind of the degree to which we are open to new ideas and suggestions in our lives So asking are we actually open to feedback even if it's critical For ourselves or do we always just look for and seek for information that confirms our beliefs and Only kind of hear what we want to hear and Do we care more about who is right or what is right? And that's kind of a big distinction there So those who have open mindsets are always seeking to find what the truth is Rather than be the authority themselves in the room and they invite open communication from others And they can even go so far as to see disagreement as being a really helpful thing for them, right? So the third one we'll talk about Is the promotion versus a prevention mindset and this one can really Think about where do our fears come from? Are we fear driven? Because someone with a prevention mindset Really has a large fear of having problems and having people see their problems making mistakes Or experiencing discomfort in their lives. So they're committed to avoiding those problems and that discomfort And they want to play it safe and this can turn into a lot of other negative things That can actually cause more problems like micromanaging or being quick to reprimand others if they're leaders and While conversely someone with a promotion mindset is seeking to reach more They're trying to make more progress They're trying to be aggressive with their goals and they're really more focused on what they can achieve and fulfilling their purpose rather than preventing Loss and pain and so thus they're not trying to avoid problems But they're actually thinking through and anticipating and preparing for them And they're also willing to take more risks to meet their goals, right? And finally the fourth mindset pair that I'll talk about is the inward versus the outward mindset Which this was kind of the first pair that I was really introduced to at least in a big way And it comes from research and work done by a group called the arbinger institute boutique consulting firm out of utah, but this Um, this is a big one in human relations. Uh, for example, we can think perhaps you can think about a time When you failed to when you're driving you failed to let someone into your driving lane Even though they had their blinker on maybe you failed to you're working on a work project and you didn't really pull your weight in the team Failed to really give support to someone who you knew needed some help from you And you had the ability to do so but then didn't do it or If uh, it failed to do something kind for maybe a family member in your personal life But when it would have been something that you could have easily done and these are all examples And we all have these examples in our lives of having an inward mindset and it's a self focused approach to life Um, when we're inward we see other people as objects and we can do this in a few ways We can see them as Vehicles in our lives to kind of help us get something done. We see them as obstacles in our way Who we need to move or we can see them as just truly irrelevant. We just don't care about them So that's the inward mindset whereas opposed to an outward mindset Suggest that we should see people as people who matter like we matter and we should be more focused on the success of the group and The organization perhaps in a work setting Um, then just focused on ourselves on our own success, right? And so I like to think of this as living even beyond the classic golden rule of treating others the way that you want to be treated And I've heard it called the the platinum rule which is to treat others the way that they Want to be treated and this means that we actually need to care about what others want and care about, you know Seeing them and what? Their goals and challenges are so obviously I've talked for quite a while But we could talk about each one of these for days But this is just a quick summary of each one of those mindset pairs No, that's great. And you got the growth verse fix the promotion verse prevention open verse closed inward verse outward And I know they can all be relevant to different people in different ways For sure the growth verse fix that carol dweck book mindset This the new psychology of success is a wonderful book if you want to dig deeper into that That's really really opened my eyes when I read it in terms of You know a growth mindset and she gives all kinds of examples with children and other things that really make you Kind of think about it, which was great. And I think all of those different Mindset pairs that you talked about can people can kind of Connect with them in different aspects of their lives for sure And I think another one that I kind of thought of while you were talking about it That I think is a good example to give is even from a sports perspective You can either go to win the game or try not to lose the game, right? So if you're trying to win the game, you're really trying to score you're trying to push You know push the game forward if you're not if you're maybe maybe it's fear-based You think this other team is really good. You just want to try not to lose the game So you're really playing it safe and and again that can also cross over to your career And Jeff gave some career options, but there's things you can do You're saying I just want to take it easy here and coast a little bit Or I want to go and then get promoted and do a bunch of things here So definitely think about how some of these mindsets might Connect to you and your career in your life and maybe how you can switch from one to the other And actually see some results in doing that I think that could be That could be really really important So let's try to bring this back a little bit to the listeners Jeff in terms of You know, how can these mindsets help engineering professionals to get unstuck from Limiting beliefs or negative stereotypes? How can maybe they utilize some of these? Yeah, great question. So actually that's one of the reasons why I got into coaching engineers Obviously, that's my background, but I see engineers all the time Falling into these stereotypes these limiting beliefs that can really be crippling when we're trying to make progress in our lives So I think in particular talked about the growth mindset when Talking about this like do we really believe that we have the capacity to grow and develop skills? Or do we think that we're fixed and don't have this ability to change? So just one example Many technical professionals and engineers buy into this myth that they're really good technically But they're not good communicators or that they're book smart, but not street smart I mean, I heard that all the time because I I had a natural ability with math and science stuff and that kind of led me to an engineering career early on but I kind of bought into this Stereotype of what an engineer meant or what a what a math kid was or something like that, right? And I and I see that with a lot of people But who said that these things have to be exclusive, right? That why can't I be good technically but also be a good communicator? And then, you know, those things don't have to be exclusive So often this connects with the belief That many engineers are introverts. There are all sorts of jokes about engineers about being introverts And Whether or not that is true That the majority of them are introverts is completely irrelevant because introverts can actually be fabulous communicators But beyond talking about communication activities like starting to talk about Active listening and other things We first need to convince an engineer at his or her core that they can actually grow In this trait and they can change their mindset And if they can believe that then any action we take to develop the skill They have in their lives will be enhanced So if we're talking about communication if we can work on the mindset and really believe that they can grow and develop that then Like we said any actions or behaviors to actually grow that skill is going to be a lot more effective for them Yeah, that's great. And I really like that example because I it's true a lot of Engineers or technical professionals get kind of classified into this not so good communicator category And they tend to accept it because it is what it is and I mean, I'm living proof of that when I started doing speaking I was just awful I was not a good speaker in public and I spoke really fast and it wasn't easy for people To understand me, but I just kind of kept plugging away at it and kept practicing and Got better. So now I often tell engineers that that's a skill you can improve But really going to what Jeff said whether or not you try to improve it often comes back to your mindset Like did you think you could improve it or did you think that you couldn't and that's going to dictate the steps that you take? so that's So that's great stuff. So we're going to come back Then our take action today segment in a minute and get back into this Mindsets and wrap it up on how you can maybe take action on thinking about your mindsets But before we do that Jeff I did mention earlier on in the show that you're going to be taken over as host of the engineering career coach podcast And we're really happy happy to have you do that and I just wanted to maybe ask you about that and Kind of you know, what your goal? Maybe for taking over the show and what you hope to be able to do it as host of the podcast going forward Yes, I'm really excited about this and I appreciate you giving me this opportunity to do that um I mean I really want to help inspire engineers and just kind of along the lines of the whole goal of why you started EMI as well and and the podcast as well to really reach higher and be their best selves I truly believe the engineering work of all kinds is going to be a huge driver of innovation in our society and economic growth worldwide And if I can be a small part in helping engineers be their best selves and thus deliver more Great innovations, then I think that's a win and I hope also hope that we can continue to grow the audience of the podcast I know anthony your biggest industry connections and and most of your audience right now is a large influence with civil engineering In related fields based on your background But I hope that we can also increase the reach to other industries as well even more Some of the industries that are also already listening in but growing with some of my experience more of these software and electrical engineers that You know these industries are going to be a huge part of how technology Continues to change in the coming years And you know they need to be their best as we continue to grow in those technologies And really I'm just excited for the opportunity to keep growing myself as well with the people that I'll interview and learning from them and so excited to Continue on with it Yeah, that's great. And I you know, I've always had You know So he's been a place in my heart for the engineering career coach podcast We have five or six podcasts now. I'm losing track a bit, but this was the first one always And I started this in the beginning to really serve all engineering and technical professionals And we did start some niche podcasts in the civil and other things and that and all that's growing But I do think that there's there are a lot of really good personal and professional development topics That can be distributed amongst all engineering and technical professionals And that's why I really feel that there's a place for this podcast And while I haven't been able to contribute as much anymore with our training that's been growing Having someone like Jeff who's been doing a lot of great stuff for engineers to come on and Kind of take it and run with it and him and I are going to work in the background on guests and other ideas That we're still going to bring to the table and I'm just excited about that all together. So With that we're going to take a quick break. I'm going to come back with Jeff in a minute We're going to wrap this one up with our take action today segment and give you some pointers on how you can Kind of think more about the mindsets that we've talked about here today. We'll be right back All right, we're back with Jeff Perry founder of more than engineering jeff's leadership and career coach for engineers and he'll be taking over as Host of this podcast going forward which we're excited about and jeff we talked a lot about mindsets today and talked a lot about these different mindset pairs and What we want to do here is give our listeners something to take action on based on what we've talked about here What's something that you can kind of give them as they step away from this podcast and go back to their everyday actions Yeah, great. So I think it can all be kind of Put together with just choosing one of these mindset pairs anyone that if there's anyone that resonated Or someone felt like hey, I feel like I need to work on that And just a quick review that was growth versus fixed mindset that was open versus closed That was promotion versus prevention or Outward versus inward mindsets any one of those that someone feels like they could work on Then just choose one and take some action and Obviously the growth and the development of mindsets. It's a lifelong pursuit But if we can just move the needle even just a little bit Make small progress that can mean big results or big changes in our lives and in our relationships and our work output and so just to leave with a little quote about this is that Who you are today doesn't mean or who you are today doesn't have to be who you are tomorrow So we can continue to grow and change wherever you're at today is irrelevant But you need to continue to just focus on how can I just get a little bit better each day and be a little bit better tomorrow Than I was today in growing these mindsets That's great. And that's what we really want you to think about Do you maybe have a fixed mindset and you can do some things to push it to a growth mindset and then that would Make big changes for you because as we said these mindsets are tied to your actions and the results that you get So that's kind of what we want to kind of leave you with here today And of course you'll be hearing more from jeff as he comes on as the host of the engineering career coach podcast And in the meantime jeff, where can our listeners kind of find you and keep up to date with some of the things you are doing? Yeah, so i'm reasonably active on linkedin always welcome to connect with people there You can find me if you just look up jeff parry or more than engineering My main website is more than dash engineering dot com and the course that i'm just starting to launch For people who are working on career transitions. It's called the engineering career accelerator So people can check that out at engineeringcareeraccelerator.com All right, great. So jeff thanks so much for coming on the podcast today And we really look forward to having you as the host going forward. Thanks, anthony. I look forward to it I hope you enjoyed this episode Please leave your comments and or questions in the comment section below this video Also, if you'd like to view the full show notes for this episode Visit engineeringmanagementinstitute.org or see the link in the video description There you will find the key points discussed in today's episode as well as links to any of the resources websites or books mentioned during the episode Until next time. I wish you the best in all your engineering career endeavors