 Welcome back to the original gangster podcast. I'm Jimmy Buccellato here with a remote episode with my partner in crime and Co-conspirator the intrepid mr. Scott Bernstein. Hey now and before we introduce our prestigious Guest here. We would like to remind everyone. Please subscribe to our YouTube channel. Please follow us on social media it's a big help in terms of spreading the word and We're super excited for our special guest today Mr. Anjaye nag Paul is here with us. How are you, sir? I'm great. Thanks for having me. We're going Hollywood. We're going Hollywood today, baby We're on the sunset strip. Just rocking it out another big Hollywood guest And we've had some some Hollywood producers on before we've had the Hollywood directors on our friend Gentili who directed American murderer was was on our show before so so We've done this before and we like to mix it up and talk about popular culture But actually the main focus of our episode today will be a podcast that Anjaye is is Producing and putting out there, which is brokers bagmen and moles. It's about financial corruption in Chicago a lot of connections to organize crime and the outfit So anyhow welcome again, thanks. Thanks for having me I'm really excited to to be on the show. Maybe a little intimidated about your guys knowledge of Chicago organized crime But excited to chat We'll be gentle, but I think people should know Before we start I mean Anjaye is a is a real rising star not just in you know, the Hollywood Scripted space when it comes to film but also making this pivot and that's what we're gonna focus on today Let's pivot to a podcast network that he's been building but he comes from a a background in producing some some big big Hollywood films we were talking off off Off camera, he was one of the producers of the Joker Which just you know took You know pop culture by storm a couple years ago. There's a sequel that's coming out, but now he's into the into the podcast space and he's got this Very very compelling and riveting story 1980s Chicago Wall Street mob, it's it's it's great Thanks guys. Yeah, I'd love to I'd love to you know tell you guys about the show and in our company and You know you tell me where you want to start. I'll dive in I'll dive in anywhere, but I'm excited to talk about it Well, what is it tell us a little bit background to this podcast first and then we could go into like how you became interested in this but just Right away give our audience an idea of you know, I mentioned financial corruption and some ties to the outfit But tell us how you you conceptualize this this podcast Yeah, sure. So it came about in a really interesting way and originally I Was developing a concept for television for scripted television based around this world of You know floor traders the old floor traders. They sound like Eddie Murphy's trading places Because it was such a wild and interesting world and And yeah other than trading places that really hadn't ever you hadn't really ever seen You know this version of a financial scam Before and so I learned about this FBI investigation at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange and the Chicago Board of Trade thought to make a great scripted series and then During the pandemic decide at the encouraging of a friend Dennis Ratten who's an executive producer on our podcast Who had experience in audio said, you know, this would make a great a great kind of documentary style podcast And I said, you know, you're actually right. It would be and so we just started, you know, kind of putting that together started doing interviews and and now we have a you know, a 12 episode narrative nonfiction podcast about the FBI investigations into the the Board of Trade and the Mercantile Exchange in the late 80s It's available on all podcast platforms as well as YouTube And it's called the brokers bagman and moles and yeah, it's out now I would you say that It has kind of a vibe to like movies like Wall Street Wolf of Wall Street in terms of like that kind of high stakes culture where ethics get blurred get blurry and Yeah, yeah, murky Absolutely, absolutely, and I think you nailed it, you know Morality does get blurry, you know, there's a there's a great quote That one of the defense attorneys used and to describe, you know, what went on like, you know, people people I asked me all the time like well, how were these guys cheating and and you know Just just from a high level the government accused Chicago's brokers of Stealing millions dollars from their customers. They said it was a systematic corruption That everybody on the floor was crooked We don't know how they they heard, you know How they knew about that because it was such a closed club a closed society, but somehow they they thought everyone was crooked And they thought these brokers were stealing from their customers who weren't on the floor And using kind of other traders in there in the area as bagman And the details of how they stole are are pretty complicated, but you know from a high level basically they would they would kind of, you know, take a customer's order Manipulate it or, you know, trade it at the wrong price and then, you know Put some money into one of their kind of partner's pockets and then split the difference later Sometimes they would trade after the market closed and things like that that that wasn't allowed, but you know At the end of the day You know, this this was the at the time it was the most expensive investigation in in the history of the FBI and Because you know, they had to have four four traders Dressed up as or sorry for FBI agents undercover, you know, pretending to mix in with with the Chicago traders Which I thought was gonna be a difficult job And then going undercover and trying to gather evidence to present a case But what you'll what you'll learn is yeah, there's there's no black and white there's a lot of shades and gray shades of gray here, you know because That there were there were some people who, you know broke the rules and and they actually, you know Broke the rules in order to try to like actually help a customer out to actually do the right thing And there were some other people who egregiously stole a lot of money And you know trying to get to the bottom of of which is which it is really tricky And one of the reasons kind of the investigation was maybe a little Just kind of not planned as well as it could have been so but it goes into that world of you know There's there's a ton of money being made these these markets Chicago's futures exchanges expanded from being all about agriculture and commodities, right? Those are that's how these exchanges started in the 1800s. There were places where farmers would you know Exchange crops there were actual, you know mark agricultural markets and then they turned into Markets where you trade futures contracts and then in the 70s and 80s They stopped being just agricultural exchanges and they started trading financial products and that's when things absolutely Exploded and people were making money hand over fist because there's just so much volume and that's when you know the moral gray area was You know crossed the more the line was crossed by by some traders who you know, just really we're making so much money and Ended up manipulating and abusing the system Which was all done and that's a big part of this too It was all done via open-out cry trading which is basically just you know You've seen the seen the movies and you've seen trading places and things like that and there's also a scene in Ferris wheelers They offer you're looking at Yeah Exactly So you know your stuff And so like you know that the system made it made it so that it was kind of easy to steal I can you know you're doing stuff with the hand signals and and and yelling to screaming You're writing it down with at the time pencil on piece of paper and like yeah You got pencils have erasers and and you know, it was just like It was just easy this that system made it easy if you wanted to if you didn't have a you know If you had a moral gray area To steal and then you know, that's kind of where our thing goes like the initial the initial You know kind of log line is like The the FBI You know said there was massive corruption going on that all these brokers were just stealing from their customers The traders said that the that the investigation was the total wipeout and waste of taxpayer dollars and like where's the truth? But at the end of the day And at the end of the day like on paper the investigation wasn't that successful But it did it did create some change and the biggest thing was like, you know, that system should never have existed And and and the reason that it did was because a lot of the people who who you know had the most at stake Created this system of like self-regulation And you know lack of governmental oversight that they that they very much paid for With with very aggressive lobbying efforts And so it becomes kind of this examination of like that that system should have, you know, should have Should have worked much better and should have had better regulation and and all that so sorry that was way too much I know you're trying to keep the snubble, but Yeah, I think our audience is a A Higher thinking type of audience for this type of thing. I think that a lot of times earlier in the podcast. I was over over-explaining things and I think at a certain point I kind of I wasn't appreciating the audience So I think the audience for this is are the type of people that can kind of keep up with it and come At least our Chicago people. I know This is not in the city of Chicago all this stuff that was going on It wasn't a secret I wanted to throw an anecdote at you wrapped in a question From some of my research and there's there's one very vivid visceral situation that I know happened at the border trade in Chicago and I'm wondering if you ever heard this before And and how it was or wasn't emblematic of the whole Uh atmosphere so there was obviously a lot of finesse and Boardroom gangster for foresight forethought pine, you know pioneering um white collar stuff Going on here. So I'm not trying to diminish That aspect of it But when you're talking about the mob organized crime, especially the Chicago guys You're talking about guys that speak most of their language in brute force um So I guess my first question and then I'll just throw the anecdote out that I heard and and have you answer the question and Tell me if you've ever heard that anecdote before Would be did you guys in your uh In your investigations or the stories that you guys are telling did you ever encounter like true? You know A situation where people were Fearing for their lives Fearing for their safety Or their safety was Compromised and they were hurt or killed And the the anecdote I want to throw out at you I was made aware from multiple people and I believe it Is in a court file somewhere That uh a guy a pretty high ranking guy at one point Louie marino Went by the nickname louis tomatoes Uh that louie marino and and his protege at the time a guy named mike zatello. They called him a one mike They had a debtor or they had some guy on the floor That they were unhappy with that. He wasn't doing what they told him to do And they went into the in the middle of the chicago trading floor and like beat this guy up and like hung him by his feet over Like a balcony or something and this happened in front of a bunch of people. Have you ever heard that? I haven't heard that one. Um, which i'm i'm surprised by but I don't doubt it at all. Um, you know crazy stuff happened down there. Um, I think that was I think that was in the late 80s 88 Yeah I mean, you know, that's that's wild because that could have been right at you know when this investigation was still Still ongoing. Um, because it this this started in in the Technically like in 84 beginning of 85 and and went all the way to 89 um, but I hadn't heard that that specific one, but you know There was a lot of uh Involvements between the you know the outfit and and the trading floor and that that that um Happened in many ways like And and we tell an anecdote Um, so so obviously look like gambling uh traders and gamblers they a lot of these guys, you know There's a whole Exactly and and then not to mention that like, you know a lot of uh You know alpha guys had had their like they got their their son's jobs at at both exchanges But mostly at the merc and I I've worked with with one of those I I guess we should we left out a nugget, which is that I was a trader at the merc for a couple years Uh in the early 2000s after this much after this investigation um And I was in the options pitch, which are a little bit of a different world, but but uh you know, so I I I'd even known a bunch of people that that uh Uh, you know that had alpha ties. In fact, I was traded the same pit as um the son of uh, jimmy marcello Who's currently incarcerated you guys talked about? Um, he he tragically died of cancer Um, and when was it really? Yeah, yeah, and he was a very like Lovely guy nice guy. Um, but anyways, I just just say that, you know, I think our audience I think that's something that our audience would be interested in just you'd say you don't want to deepen on that But does the fact that I mean, I I didn't know super well or anything like that But but just the fact I knew he was there I knew he was um, but you know, you wouldn't know from from talk No, I mean he he was a really just a funny guy nice guy and and uh But and there was there was just a lot of those kind of last names that you that you would you know recognize And we can we can talk about them individually about but I do want to circle back to your question of like Yeah, you know these these things intersected in a lot of ways because um Obviously a drug-scambling And that and that kind of stuff and and and also like in a big big kind of thrust of our shows like What about money laundering right and like, you know, we're people wash your money on the floor and um, You know, we we strongly First and foremost, you know, one of the one of the things about our show is like When I kind of started to take a deep dive into this investigation um, you know what you read I just started to to pick up on things that there might be more than uh more going on than than what's been published and one of those things was There were a couple little nuggets here and there of somebody mentioning money laundering and I was like, yeah that That sure seems like it could have happened given all the people that were down there given that Uh, the exchanges are probably a pretty good way to to uh, you know, a lot of money if you want and and so That was a big threat of like, you know, the FBI kind of claimed All this investigation was just about trading violations. It's all we were looking for, you know But by the end of our show you find out that nope They in fact were also looking for organized crime activity including money laundering including gambling and drugs and all those things So it really was a two-pronged investigation and that's kind of one of the the You know, things that you learn about in our show. I don't want to go too too deep into it But you know, just uncovering in our investigating that. Oh, yeah per my hunch, uh, you know that the FBI was was uh, Definitely keeping tabs on some of these, uh, you know out for related people seeing what they could Seeing what they could sniff out in terms of um, drug dealing gambling, um, any kind of other activity. So Yeah, and in fact, there's a great story that uh, luis porcelaino tells in his episode that um That you know, he heard you know the the origin of the investigation is also a little murky it's like how do they figure out that there was all this stuff going on the floor, um, and there was a kind of the the conventional wisdom is um that Uh, archer daniels midland, which is this big food processing company in in central linoa. You guys probably heard of um That they complained they were big customer of the exchange They complained that that they were getting ripped off on the on the floor and that's what started the investigation But you know, we pieced together that while that was a part of it, um You know the fb the f guy had already been kind of clued off to clued clued into What was going down on the floor? um Through a couple of different ways and one of those was which they heard um You know, they had wiretaps on bookies and drug dealers in town and and they they heard you know conversations with bookies talking to people and and uh, you know, some some guy would lose 50 grand on a bears game and uh And and they would call lewis porcelain. I'll be like, hey, this you know, this trader. Is he good for it? You know, um, and And then these guys would say stuff like oh, well, don't worry about it. I'll pay it. I'll pay I'll just steal it off the deck this week and uh Steal it off the deck means basically steal it from my customers like a deck is a pile of customer orders So it's like, yeah, don't worry. I'll just grab it. You know, I'll steal it this week and I'll I'll pay my debts down next week And and uh, you know, lewis had heard heard that story and told it to us and you know, it's pretty incredible But but that's kind of how it was like, you know, and that's gonna raise eyebrows, right? It's like wait I'm sorry with this 25 year old is getting $50,000 of cash and you know in the mid 80s how? And uh, that's definitely kind of one of the things that he and he and lewis porcelain Oh, you just referenced. I mean, this is one of those guys that that you reference that you're talking about um, you know sons of prominent Chicago wise guys sons of frankly mob killers Uh, you mentioned jimmy marcello. We're not we're not uh besmirching his reputation by saying that jimmy marcello is Is right now doing life in prison? for a double homicide um and Lewis porcelain knows dad unfortunately Was on both sides of it. You know, he was an alleged killer And then he was a victim of a gangland slain and uh, you know, he was a part lewis's dad, uh I think his real name was john, but he went by little tony or tony borse. Uh, so little tony porcelain. Oh was a Major member of what they called the wild bunch, which was the the elite Uh enforcement unit for the outfit in the 70s and early 80s They took their name from a an old, uh cowboy movie And they were just a bunch of desperados guys that were You know, this was a rag tag group of uh thugs thieves and murderers Kind of each one was more depraved than the other one from my research tony borcelino was Kind of the lesser depraved of that whole group I don't think he was as sociopathic as some of those a bush presto sally and um harry allman and and uh some of those guys But tony was a was a guy that was allegedly doing hits for them and then When they were covering their tracks from some of those hits They got rid of the guys that actually did the The hits themselves and and tony borcelino was killed. I believe in 1979 but uh This is this his son and I don't know more than just that his son is a guy that Uh has been looked after by a lot of his dad's friends But he he pops up, you know, right on the radar of your uh in in your story So I think that kind of encapsulates a lot of what we're talking about Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean You know, he's such an interesting guy and you know, I thank him for for talking to us and being so open and candid about everything and he you know, um Doesn't shy away from who his father was he he kind of come You know, it's kind of he leaves a lot of conversations with it because he just you know, he wants to get it out in the open um, he's He's spent a lot of time um, you know trying to um, you know Let people know that he's he's legitimate and um, you know, this is and so he's that you know, I mean think about it I can't imagine what it's like growing up like that With having your father be that you know that kind of a you know, a legit hit man like said You know have it getting uh, you know murdered by the Outfit and then murdered by the same you're like murdered by your friends Right. So it's like you know, porcelaino You have to reconcile who your dad is that's one Right, right. And then you're you're thinking back. I'm sure I'm putting myself in his shoes. I don't know I'm guessing you're putting yourself back. Hey all these guys that were around my dad all these guys that I saw as Uncle tony uncle harry uncle joey They're probably the guys that killed my dad Yeah You said you talk about gray and there's a lot of gray. Yeah. Yeah a lot of gray in this in these worlds Yeah, yeah, and then you know lures talks about that a lot in his episode, which uh, I believe is episode eight of our show seven or eight But yeah, he talks about that a lot. He's he's really not afraid to go there and and talks about, you know Having a dad who who had a different, you know Morality compass, but he also Was a very good father really looked out for his family You know kind of turned it off and on of like yeah when he's out you know at work He's doing you know really Potentially awful stuff and then when he's at home He's just a great family guy and you know taking care of taking care of his family and just wanting to You know be present with them So, yeah, very very crazy, you know life and You know, lures was a really known to be a great trader. I made a lot of money It's had just an epic kind of life story lots of ups and downs over time, but Yeah, he seems like a real stand-up guy and Yeah, he's he's he's been through a lot like you said and he tells a story in our show that um He I guess uh, joey. I upa who was in charge at the time um asked a favor of him to to get his nephew uh down to the floor and um And he said he offered up that he said hey what happened your dad was a mistake um And so I don't know if that was an apology of sorts for that hit or whatever but and and you know Lewis just said like I hey man. What's done is done. I can't not what can I do about that? You know and and uh trying to move on Can I can I color that up for a second? Yeah, so it's it's interesting that that you tell that you're saying to me that louis said that because from from what I recall and how the the timeline of that all went was that I upa Was worried about his driver Uh a guy named jerry carousel. They called him the dinger Dinger and Again, according to the fbi. It's never been proven uh, I upa Gave the contract to kill dinger carousel To tony borsalina And one of the reasons he wanted carousel out of the way was because carousel had Done some jobs for them or with them and they basically just wanted to You know cut that loose end and then I think There had been some informants that started giving information To the fbi about the carousel. Oh, hey carousel. Oh, hey Which resulted in joey, I upa Ordering tony borsalino's murder allegedly to cut that tie So it's interesting that you're saying that borsalino says that at one point I upa says it shouldn't have happened that way When in reality it might have been I upa that made it happen that way. Yeah Well, I think, you know, that is interesting and like I said, this is why I was intimidated to talk to you guys because you know everything Yeah, I think it's interesting though, because I think maybe what he was trying to say and was that like You know, not it was an accident, but like I'm sorry it had to happen But like, you know, it had had to happen, but I'm sorry it had to happen like kind of thing You know what I mean like so He didn't it didn't seem like he shirked responsibility for it or anything But he was just kind of like a tough tough thing without your dad It had it had to happen like it was a casualty of war kind of Well, that's what it was. Tony borsalino hadn't done anything Right, right Right, I think that's the sentiment he was trying to get across to louis and um But it's funny too. He just you know, his son, I guess is Anyway, he tells a funny story about joey a but Because I guess the nephew was also named joey a but and he was getting paged down on the floor And so like over the loudspeaker at the merc you'd hear, you know paging joey. I hope and everyone kind of stopped Going on here. Yeah, so At that time, uh, joey a upo was the number one boss the joey doves was the number one boss in chicago He ran things from around 70 to 73. I believe until he got locked up in 86 but uh I I'm I digress a little bit here, but I've always thought to myself That joey a upa we were talking about batman and and Villains in the batman universe earlier in the episode for some reason whenever I see joey upa I think of like a real life the penguin Like he looks like if you were going to cast a person as the penguin I know they have a character now that uh, that did pretty well Uh, you know in the last batman that they're making a spin off of a calm feral But I always look at joey a upa and I'm like that guy looks like the penguin Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean a lot of these a No, he looked at a central casting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly exactly But yeah, I mean to your point, you know, like loose porcelain this guy who You know, he's a legitimate trader. No, he's never been uh in diet or anything. Um, but again, he's still at the center of a lot of Yeah, so there's a lot of relationships The outfit, but that's you know, it's family. It's the way you grew up and and uh, yeah, he I think that's also an interesting thing about kind of chicago in general is that I think a lot of the A lot of the members of the outfit didn't want their their sons following them Uh into that life. Um, I'm sure some did but for the most part From my experience too from people I know that that uh, it was like, no, let's let's get you down a different path and And I think that's one thing that that is very yeah, definitely less than new york, I would say with chicago bringing in um The next generation there definitely were examples of guys that got brought in after their dads But as I'm thinking off the top of my head right now of all of those big players in the 80s and 90s, I Not a lot of their kids. I mean iupa didn't bring his kid in jackie serone's kid was in kind of A cardo didn't bring his kid in um The fronzo didn't bring his kid in jimmy iandino who's the most recent member of the wild bunch to pass away he passed away uh Back in february or march, you know, he didn't bring his kid in. I don't believe yeah, so it's It's interesting that you point that out. I think that is Something Yeah, definitely. I think it's in new york They're just starting now to not bring their kids in Like one oh really that's interesting Yeah, yeah, no, I think they had that mindset of like, you know You know, obviously that that lifestyle gets glamorized a lot in movies and things like that But I think from my experiences and from my research And interviews like a lot of the the mentality was like hey, we're doing this because we have to you know, like we're just trying to Trying to get somewhere in life We're trying to you know change jet future generations of her family and we don't want to have our kids You know do the same dirty work that we're doing here um And you know something kind of obviously for criminals, but there's so something noble about that You know concept at least and there's I get on my digress a little bit, but there is one example currently right now of One of the regimes within the outfit Allegedly being passed on from one generation to the next and it's a it would be the fourth generation I believe or the third generation It's on the south side the chinatown crew with the carousels Tutsi babe carousels dad skids carousel was the Couple before him and then tutsi babe has been in there for quite a while and then there's rumors that Little little little Frankie or little tutsi could be Him and actually the head of the wild bunch was joe ferriola He brought his kid in and right now the the word on the street is that joe ferriola son nicky and Frank caruso's son Little Frankie might be Coming up to take over that that one crew but other than that I think that's more of an outlier situation in the outfit Going back to what we were saying. Yeah, a lot of these main guys didn't bring their kids in Yeah, I don't even know these days, you know, most of my knowledge is kind of back around that 80s 90s 2000s time but since a family secrets Happened, I don't know too much about you know, what's going on these days and what is the it's still there It's still there. It's just you know the the newspapers and the Chuck gowdy so does a pretty good job Tribune and sometimes I I still kind of scratch my head at at why they stopped the coverage. It's great for me I mean, I I scoop it up and I take the coverage But I I wonder why they stopped writing about it so I have a I have a theory is because I would say in Chicago right now the Italians are the least of their concern in terms of gang organized crime violence And I think it's it's similar to Detroit when We have this debate scott and I with other people on the podcast and other formats Because the FBI is not actively as actively investigating Cozan Ostra in Chicago or Detroit because the media doesn't cover it Some people think well, it just doesn't exist anymore and we have to explain that no things are very complicated and and media for every newspaper, right their the resources are shrinking And and the Department of Justice, right their resources are always fighting over resources and you have to prioritize whether you're an editor a publisher or or The head of the FBI division or organized crime task force and where are you going to allocate resources? And I just think in Chicago right now, whether it's the media or the feds It's just not a high priority. It doesn't mean that it's gone away I I would say that the scale is much smaller though I think that point is well taken the scale is much smaller than it was in the 70s 80s Um, but but that doesn't mean it it doesn't exist, right? And we've talked about this before but I want to throw this off to andre They've stopped killing people for the most part. Yeah, I think that that's the difference between the mob in the 20th century and the mob now not that it doesn't exist now but murder is truly a last resort measure And you know, I don't want to belabor the point because I think I've said it I hear a bunch I don't know if andre's heard it, but you know between 1980 And 2000 in america You had hundreds of mob murders if not more uh between 2000 and 2023 In the whole country, you've probably only had a dozen Yeah, yeah, I mean and start start contrast in the in a 20 year sample size That makes sense and that's obviously a good thing, you know, um, but and also like I think say there some of the They're the murders and the hits were so sensational too, right? They were just, you know, um Unfortunately headline grabbing but but you know the way that the spot was died the way that a lot of these people You know, a lot of these murders were carried out or you know, they were violent and You know, just just kind of shocking and so That was definitely grabbed headlines I want to ask something about uh your investigation and if this comes up in the podcast So you talked about some of these guys who are Living on the edge and so the the gamble maybe have drug habits So they end up robbing elbows with wise guys or connected guys But did the outfit actually get their hands in on any like actual white collar Crime so like either money laundering or the pump and dump type scams Uh, can you can you speak to that or was it more of an indirect relationship? um, so you know our our Our primary objective of the show is was again just to kind of Dive as deep as we could into kind of what happened in this investigation And you know, so it's primarily about trading and and and uh, you know, the people on the floor that were indicted and all that but but we did learn a lot and um And you know, I'll say that we we leave our show, uh with questions about You know further investigating into that that kind of direct mafia presence But I can tell you that I've heard a lot of first-hand stories um about Um, not so much pump and dump stuff but money laundering for sure Um, you know several instances of that things you know some some shaking down of Uh people that were on the floor through various, uh, you know kind of Methods that that you know made gave money to the mafia. Um, so definitely money laundering and then um Just, you know kickbacks that that that uh, you know certain Brokers were getting that they were supposedly shuffling off the floor to Uh to the outfit. So I think that there there was some direct connections between um, you know money that was made on the floor and and Either washed and and returned the outfit or just made uh through underhanded Kind of you know techniques that that were also kicked up to Um to to mafia guys off off the floor. Um, haven't Been able to prove any of that. I don't know if you ever can but yeah, I definitely heard heard a lot of stories of actual direct involvement Um, but but that's some of the FBI never Never put a finger on while during this investigation. That's kind of one of the one of the fascinating things, right? It's like they were They were looking for uh, obviously, you know credit traders And they were also looking for all that kind of mafia activity, but but they didn't find it even though it did exist So do you think that in some ways because I know as you mentioned there are the the Critics that ultimately or they say that ultimately the investigation really didn't uh produce enough results but in some ways can you say that it at least um You know shine a light and force the cockroaches to run maybe a little bit So even even if there weren't a lot of indictments and does that make sense that yeah for music It totally does. I think like that that's the FBI. Um, you know the FBI agents who are involved Yeah, they kind of answer the question the same way. They're like look on paper did it did it You know, like like the world on fire. Does it look super impressive next to uh, you know, the Ivan boski and michael milkin and some of his other massive financial scandals that rocked wall street in the 80s Probably not but at the same time. Yeah, they you know, a big part of their job was just to expose What was happening on the floor and what was happening on the floor was while there were a lot of Honest brokers there were a lot of people who were just playing fast and loose with the rules Including a lot of the people who were in charge of the place. Um, some were pretty egregious a lot of money was being stolen um, and you know, like the level of drugs and and and gambling and everything that was going on down there. Yeah, it was it was it was definitely a little out of control and so um, and and you know, they say but yeah, like we exposed it right and like um, we exposed a lot of this and you know, these things got huge media attention when they were first announced I mean, you know, it was a front page of every newspaper in the country and sure a lot in the world too Um, I mean think about it like it's it's it's a big story like Actual corruption within our financial markets. I mean, it's not, you know, this isn't like some some boiler room off the floor stuff This is talking about like where, you know, like a these these gigantic Financial institutions that we're supposed to trust as as American public and the inside of those things people run them the people who do the trades like We're accused of like this mass of corruption. And so that's a big deal, you know And and so they they were like, yeah, well if we we did our job as the FBI Can we have done a better? Yes, but we we shined a light on this stuff and it's up to congress It's up to lawmakers to change the system because everybody realized that that open outcry system the way it was You know, so loosely monitored so loosely enforced very poorly regulated by the federal government um, it was all by design and And and so they they wanted to change that and so they they did shine a spotlight on it. Did they actually change it? I would say they Accelerated the change, you know change was possible computers were starting to you know Trading was starting to go computerized But the people that ran the exchanges in Chicago, you know, they made a lot of money from the exchanges And so they they had no interest in in accelerating that and making You know trading computerized so that there was a really clean audit trail They were like, no, we like this gray area that we'll live again because guess what I not only run the exchange But I also own a brokerage firm. You know, I also trade. Yeah, exactly like I trade. I have a brokerage firm I run the exchange I do all these things and it's like, you know, that that's what needed to be changed in my opinion and and and It did get it did change slowly but kind of ironically the One of the things that that uh that happened was The exchanges also went public and you know, once you become public Well, then you're now you're regulated by the sec which they weren't regulated by the sec originally And and so things changed over time and computers, you know, you can't slow down You can't stop technology. You can maybe slow down a little bit. You know, it was always going to go computerized Um, it was always going to you know, be more scrutinized But you know while they had the moment they you know, a lot of people wanted to to take advantage of it Let it last as long as even the possible so they could uh, you know, so they could they could profit off of it Yeah, I think it reminds me of so I teach a course crime and film And uh, one of the films we talk about is a documentary called inside job And I don't know if you've seen that on jay or scott. Um, but that was one of it's one of my favorite movies of the last 20 years Yeah, it's a really it's a it's an excellent documentary and you know, we have um A general policy of not really talking about partisan politics on this podcast But we we do talk about criminal justice public policy and um I would say that one of the takeaways from that documentary and it reminds me of your podcast is that uh, when people Are you oh, they were they were um Abusing the system. I I make the argument. No, actually it was working Exactly as as it was supposed to right That's the way as you and I you said something really striking a few minutes ago that it was designed Right so and at the same thing with that wall street corruption like it was it was baked in it was baked in To let these guys get away with these sorts of shenanigans Um, so it wasn't so much a failure as actually it's it's that's how it was designed and it was it was working for People like that. Um, unfortunately, there's a lot of exploitation of things going on So I I agree it, you know, we need to have these regulations and reforms, but um I just that it just reminded me of that documentary when you said that by design. Yeah Yeah, yeah, I mean that that's I haven't seen that in a long time. It's a great great film. I should go back and watch it but um But yeah, I mean that that's exactly right like that, you know, and there's even an episode episode 10 um Is all about these congressional hearings? um Or the heads of the exchanges go to uh congress to to basically and and there's The exchanges were regulated by something called the cftc, which is a commodities futures trading commission, which is a part of which is was as They designed it like then the exchange is designed with their own regulators and it was a temporary like this this was an underfunded under, you know staffed um Entity that just didn't really have any ability to regulate um, you know properly didn't have the the resources and the And it sat within the agricultural department, right? I mean these are like so the biggest financial products in the world were being traded Uh and overseen by the agricultural department basically, which is just insane, right? And there was a big debate at the time of like, why is that happening? That made sense, you know 100 years ago when we were selling You know when the when the chicago markets were all about agricultural products, but it doesn't make sense anymore And so this is a big fight to like, hey, no, like this should be regulated like just like new york stock exchange like every other financial You know, uh market, but and then and then in those testimonies which recover um You know one of the senators um You know is like well, why is it this way it's like because because congress designed the the you know the um The regulation to be to be timid and why this is designed to be timid well because the you know The the political action committees of the murk in the board of trade, which to your point Totally they were non-partisan, you know and and they like as literally one of the heads of the exchanges was like no We like all politicians Of course Yeah, including our friend dan rosten kowski. He's the best, you know And and you know all these other people who ended up being you know crooked politicians or whatever But you know, they had a very elaborate system which we outlined in our show of like They spent tons of time in washington There the amount of money that they raised from the members and the traders Uh at the murkin house exchange the board of trade was astronomical It was among you know, there's only a couple thousand employees there probably wasn't in the top couple hundred of companies in size But it was in the top 10 of the amount of money that they were contributing to to politicians and the way that they you know spread that out to to um, you know the The senators and congresspeople that kind of helped to oversee them and you know Had this timid system of regulation in place. It was just you know, it's looking back at it It's all transparent that you know, they basically paid for the congress to design this timid Uh, you know, regular system of regulation and it's it's pretty wild But but that's how it went down and and that's what you see. I think Over and over again in this kind of big corruption cases is Yeah, it's a it's a finely orchestrated system that to your point works exactly like someone wanted it to Andre, are you from Chicago? Yeah, yeah Where do you grow up? So I I was actually born in london. My my parents are immigrants and then we we uh, I grew up in chicago in the city and on the northwest side actually pretty close to where Yeah, my portage park area pretty pretty close to where the spalachios and and uh, like jimmy colinas and some of these other people in our T-bond is a episode character in episode two Pretty close to to some of those guys probably, you know, mixed neighborhood blue collar a lot of italian irish Polish, you know kind of immigrants, but in the city close to like belmont and austin's where i or belmont Yeah, belmont and austin's kind of where I where I grew up. Stay there for college I was a university of illinois for college. So I went on a champagne But yeah, yeah, yeah, and then I didn't move out to and then I you know traded for at the merc for a couple years um and also was in San francisco for a little bit and then I came out to uh to la to to go into film in my you know mid twenties Uh and have been out here uh for since been a while nice Anything else you got uh kind of scott lived in uh scott lived in chicago for a while. That's what sorry didn't Yeah, that's the reason I was asking I I was in I was in chicago I spent the summer Junior and senior of college And then I was there for eight years. So it was like eight years and two summers. So ten summers eight years Nice. Yeah, I mean it's great to I love going back. I I still have you know family tons of friends from high school and college and uh and so You know, I mean, that's also it was it was fun to work on this podcast because it you know took me back to To grow up in chicago in that at time. So, you know, when I was when when this investigation took place You know, I was just a little kid, but those were like your formative years, you know And that that era was a was a pretty special time in chicago with the You know, michael jordan and you know the bears and and just kind of the culture in the city was so great at the time It was a lot of fun. Um Great place to grow up for sure. It's a great city. I mean, it's like I consider it a second home uh, I didn't get out there for the first time until I was 20 years old and I fell in love with it and kind of stayed there and into my early 30s. So um Anything else you got other than the pod that we're talking about right now that you want people to know about or Stuff. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean we we we have some things for your audience as well for sure. Um uh two things coming up our one a um show that is Uh has a lot to do with the milwaukee outfit and the and the balistrary family Um, and so we'll definitely look forward to talking to you guys again about about some of the shows And then there's another one that has to do with the family secrets and um, the calabrese uh case that that has a A An interesting angle to it that I like I'll tell you guys about and we'll I'd love to chat further with you about them Um, but yeah, that definitely definitely a couple more things in the organized crime world and we're also doing other stuff like the long-form sports stories and uh entertainment culture, um, but uh You know, there was a lot of crime and uh, there's a lot of untold stories in the world of of organized crime True crime and what a color crime. So I hope you get I don't know if you're working with frank or kurt Whoever I hope you can get get their story to the big screen or get it to a uh streaming service for uh, um A television adaption. I'm shocked that we're sitting here 20 years later and there's there was a movie option. I know with gary ross for a second But yeah, actually uh Taylor made Taylor made. Yeah, there there is a project There's a script out there. In fact, one of my buddies is attached to produce it. I haven't uh, I haven't checked in with him on what the latest is but absolutely. I mean, there's that that story is just absolutely It's incredible. Uh, I was in the for I was in the courtroom for the for the whole thing. Oh, wow That's my family a fair book was kind of based on my Covering of the trial. So I saw it up close and and personal for about five months from june of Of oh seven to october of oh seven Okay, there's actually a classmate of mine who was a very young at the time defense attorney who was part of that Um trial and I talked to him about about about this once in a while Uh, no, I don't know. I don't know if he wants me to I don't know if you want me to talk about this right now I don't know Daryl Goldberg was a really young guy who I grew up with so that's why it's not the same guy But uh, he's no He was the second chair for toine Doyle Who was the uh the dirty cop that was in in that thing and we were I was yeah, I don't think I was even 30 yet. And so he was like he was 28 29 Yeah, um You know at one of the biggest federal trials in the history of the city of Chicago Yeah, yeah same. I uh, it sounds like my my my friends because similar um had a similar role, but yeah, it's just incredible that's a shout out to joe lopez who I think, uh Consumes us joe the shark. Uh, he was the calabrese attorney. Yeah. Yeah, he sounded like a character Kind of a love hate relationship, but nothing but respect for you joe if you're watching this Uh, and then he's still around. He sounded like I just love me a lot of the lawyers in chicago You could you just do the shark? He's not even yeah, he's still one of the top guys Uh, he's he's state. He's federal. He does everything. He dresses like he's uh, you know walking out of the huntry bulgarp movie um It really lives is very colorful I mean I said to him like You know, you live in a mob city when even the attorneys have nicknames like joe the shark Yeah, he said Ricky Halpern who god rest his soul, uh, he was the um Attorney for joe the clown at that trial and was to me by far the the star of that trial at least from the defense table And his client was his was his own worst enemy, but uh, you know ricky passed away, uh Unfortunately, uh too soon and but great great lawyers at all all across the board at that trial And uh for a young guy like me that was wanting to study crime. I had just graduated law school um It was really a dream come true and it set me off on the path that I am here today on so Yeah, well, that's great to hear. That's a great story and I'd love to come like I said We'd love to come back and um, you know when those shows drop, uh, I think probably next year And next year or sorry beginning next year under this year somewhere around there Um, I'd love to you know, tell you more about him ahead of time And then hopefully we can chat about him because there's some really incredible You know, real incredible stories that haven't really been told yet. And so that's what we're all about Yeah, before we wrap up, I just want to say that regarding that that I appreciate you, uh You know developing these stories as someone who's a midwest guy because I think too often People think of these kinds of stories and they think it's only new york with all due respect We have a big east coast audience. So, you know, no disrespect to the our east coast audience But there are a lot of these interesting stories in places like detroit, milwaukee, chicago, cleveland So I think it's it's really cool that that you're taking this opportunity to tell those stories Yeah, I mean absolutely. I no disrespect at all to the new york, uh, uh, you know stories They're they're incredible. They've just seen the light of day a lot. Um, you know and yeah a lot and So, I mean like, you know, chicago is it's like it's not like it's a small town It's a big city. It's a big market. And so like it's kind of odd to me that yeah Something like family secrets just still hasn't hasn't really but like in chicago if you if you were john goddy's plumber or john goddy's Um, the guy that delivered his milk if he could write a book and make Yeah But sometimes the the stories the the real meaty stories In the midwest or or in in families outside of new york sometimes get marginalized So we're just we appreciate Tip our hat to you who was making sure those stories get told For sure. All right. Thanks guys. I appreciate it. And yeah, definitely I mean they're you know, again that like these some of these things happened, you know in my backyard when I was growing up and and so, um Yeah, I think they're they're they're as interesting as anything else I've I've ever come across so um Yeah, and I mean, you know last thing I'll say is like even in um You know the the splotchos, right? Um in um Uh good fellows, right or sorry to see you know, yeah the the last unix, you know, you know that that was You know, there's they masked they were interesting as like they masked the true Names and identities and things like that of those people and they didn't say chicago in the movie At all because they because they were back home. This is back home Yeah back home and as they were they were concerned about rights and life rights and things like that in the studio They don't want to get sued but so even that which is basically a chicago story Right in chicago, los vegas, you know, still most people don't don't actually know that that's that's what it is So, yeah, let's uh, it's hard. It's if you're from the if you've ever spent time in the area though it's hard to Confuse the accent that uh, the joke that joe patchy is Portraying for his nicky spolato character. He's he obviously spent time with a dialect coach or a dialect coach And he was really leaning on heavy with the chicago accent. I thought it was great. Yeah um, yeah But uh If for some for people, I think to your point for people that knew they knew what they were watching For people that didn't know you're right. It probably was more of a just the the mafia The generic mafia without understanding that they were talking about the bosses in chicago or milwaukee year Yeah, exactly exactly So, um, I just want to remind our audience brokers bagmen and moles is the name of the podcast You can subscribe to it find it anywhere. We're great podcasts are available Um, we look forward to finding out more content from you anjay more films more podcasts Um, I'm I'm jealous. I love southern southern california. I've spent a lot of time in san diego As a kid I miss it. Although. I love detroit. I love detroit. Don't get me wrong, but I'm a little bit jealous I love it out there Grace never did was decide to start playing in that sandbox over the last decade to get to go out there And and even though i'm not living out there. I get to at least experience it I can't complain. I I I love chicago. My only two complaints are it's geographically undesirable and the weather sucks, but But other than that it's it's pretty it's pretty much the perfect place. Uh But uh, yeah, thanks. I appreciate appreciate it. It's been a ton of fun and look forward to chatting again Yeah, good luck with everything on jay. Thanks guys. Thanks. We thank everyone for listening and watching again Please subscribe and we'll see you guys next week jimmy butcholato Not bursting we're out we're out