 Hi everybody and welcome back to our podcast from the Kamasutra to 2020 where we look at your questions your concerns even your worries around all things to do with sex and sexuality. As always we have with us Dr. Anrita Madan Behl. Anrita is a psychosexual therapist and she brings the psychological perspective to the advice that the Kamasutra has to give. Welcome Anrita. Thank you Seema and welcome to our podcast this week. So under today's question, I have to say it really bothered me and it got me thinking. And you'll see in a minute what I mean so the question was, are there any positive health benefits to losing your virginity. I have to say that it really did get me very worked up because I realized that this tiny little membrane that has almost no medical significance from what I know but I'm sure you'll tell us about it. This tiny little membrane has become so important in our lives that it has started to create identity. Women's future, their honor, their entire life can depend on whether this minuscule insignificant totally unimportant membrane is intact or not. It's actually an identity to either be a virgin or to have lost your virginity. Seema, I think you make such an important and good point because in some ways that is why I started this profession of becoming a psychosexual therapist. I work with sexual violence and I really wanted to work against sexual violence. But what I realized is that in some ways the context or the way the society works, what was protecting the perpetrator, what was really perpetuating violence was this idea of virginity because people did not report or people did not say anything or speak out because a victim's life would be ruined. She would not get married, nobody would, her whole future would get spoiled if it came out that she had been abused by somebody. So everybody would maintain silence from family, society, community and the silence was actually encouraged. People were told stay silent because otherwise the consequences were dire like the victim's life was actually going to get ruined, not the perpetrator. But you can just see then it is, if the perpetrator knows nobody is going to say anything, it just gives them the encouragement or protection. So for me, breaking the silence, the shame, the taboo that revolved around sex and sexuality or breaking the silence of the virginity being the criteria for somebody's future really needed to be changed. And that was one of the main reasons I became part of this profession. That's such an interesting point. I've never actually connected the two, but you're absolutely right that till we start to break the taboo around sex and sexuality, we can't start to break the issues around sexual violence. We can't actually come face to face with them because it all hinges on that little tiny membrane that if that membrane is intact, suddenly you're fine. The membrane is broken. It's not okay. Yeah. And tell me something from a medical perspective since the question has sort of been framed around that. I want to know, is there a purpose to this membrane because I know that there are certain filters in other parts of our body. We do have nose hair, for instance, because the hair will actually stop more bacteria and germs going up or we have hair in the ears, which are there to maintain your balance. So just on a totally medical basis, is there a purpose to this membrane? There's no purpose to this membrane. And the question was, are there any benefits, health benefits? And for me, what's interesting about the question is that if somebody had asked me, are there any benefits of having sex? That's very different from asking the questions. Are there any benefits of losing your virginity? You know, and we know having sex has health benefits like it reduces stress, it helps you relax. That has further impact on cardiovascular disease and other or prostate cancer. All of those, you know, when you ask me the question, I just literally put that into the internet and WebMD came up with 10 benefits of having sex. But as we've always said, having sex is a personal choice. You need to decide when and when. So, but the question was losing your virginity and then the weightiness comes in that you're talking about, of the idea of virginity. So I actually feel that the question relates more to mental health and the societal pressures, you know, these consequences that relate to what we are talking about the morality, the societal pressures and everything. And less to do with physical health benefits of sex or not. So I guess there's, you know, through the centuries, I know certainly in India, in a lot of other cultures as well, but certainly in India, the amount of importance that has been placed on the hymen on this idea of losing the virginity is huge. You know, we have, for instance, till date, there is this Natu Tharna ceremony, you know, amongst the sex workers, the day that a young girl enters the sex trade. There is a whole sort of ceremony around this idea that the man who will be the first one to have sex with her will feel a little bit extra because she's the virgin that he's getting to have sex with. What is this fascination? And what is the importance that people feel about this virginity? Why is it that if your hymen is not broken, you are suddenly pure and fabulous? You know, we've had people writing in and saying, I've had an arranged marriage and I feel very let down because in spite of the fact that it was an arranged marriage, she had had sex before. You know, what is it that we come back to constantly from a psychological point of view to this idea of that barrier that makes you a virgin or not a virgin? And people should really understand how problematic it is. And I don't know where the origins come from. I think it is very patriarchal because we don't have these criteria for men. Men don't need to be virgins. Women need to be. But so many risks that people engage with, you know, when we think about people getting blackmailed and we were sharing stories about how so many of our friends stayed in relationships that could have been people blackmailing them or abusive relationships or something with this fear that it would be disclosed or just the idea that somebody could say, I can disclose it that, you know, that, oh, I have sex with you or I have a sexual relationship with you. They would stay in unhealthy relationships. We know people will not go and actually share with friends or family that they might need an abortion so they will go to somebody who's not a professional for health reasons or even STIs or something. We really need to understand how much this idea of virginity, all the risks that people take because they're protecting this one idea and I don't know where in our society why we give this so much importance in somebody. So I guess I just suddenly thought of a positive health benefit from what you just said. So if you could actually cut away the whole dishonour attached to losing your virginity. If a woman could claim to have lost her virginity without feeling that there were going to be consequences around it, she would be empowered to lead a better relationship so she could get rid of toxic relationships from her life. And that would certainly in my mind be a positive health benefit. But as we were saying that yes there are any number of stories that come down even in our mythology. You know I'm always reminded of the story of Draupadi. Draupadi of course is the, it's supposed to have only been married to Arjun, but through a set of circumstances she ends up being married to all five brothers. And a lot of people see this as a sense of empowerment that she had all five brothers as her husbands. It wasn't in any way a narrative of empowerment. We are told that she has to live with each brother for one year at a time that each time that she moves from one brother to the next, she has to go to a ritual bath where her virginity is restored. So basically she's, I mean I know okay that's not physically possible on the other hand these days you have hymen reconstruction surgery so maybe in those days they had it. But the very idea that she has to purify herself that the onus is on her. These are the five brothers who chose to marry her. They all have several other wives, none of the men are told that they have to purify themselves, that they have to re-virginize themselves. But she has to become a virgin again each time she goes from one brother to the next. Yeah I think this is for me the most troubling idea and like you're saying it ties into the idea when you were saying about taking back control and everything. This is how the control over women's sexuality is maintained right because their reputation of you know nobody says oh the man is loose, he's had sex before and everything. But a woman's sexuality is controlled by this narrative of virginity and the only way that we can break this narrative is that like you said that we feel comfortable in our own sexuality. And now nobody is saying that everybody should start having sex as soon as possible. What one is saying is decide for yourself when you're ready to have sex. The hormones are changing as much in women as they are in men when puberty hits. They are feeling as much desire as the men are. But like some men who wait till a very long time to have sex, there will be some women who wait and some women who will have the desire. So this should be a personal choice of somebody based on when they feel ready that they want to experiment with sex or have sex or engage with sex, a completely personal choice. I'm not based on this idea that oh, if I give it up, I will no longer be a virgin and then my life will be ruined. So I am going to control all my desires and I'm not going to engage in something that I'm interested in because of this idea. And that's actually then as soon as you get into that vicious circle, somebody can take advantage of it and actually control your life and your sexual sexuality. So some of the other young women who've written it about this same subject. I think a lot of them have also said that there's certain amount of pressure from the boyfriend. And I guess from their own hormones as they're rising, but a lot of times a little bit of pressure from the boyfriend who's saying, well, it's time that you did and it'll be good for us and be good for our relationship, etc. And again, I guess it's coming down to what you were saying it's about coercion. You know, so obviously, you know, in a relationship, somebody can absolutely say that they would like to have sex and they're interested in having sex. Like I don't think we can say every message of request is a coercion, but you should be able to recognize coercion. Like if they are saying, if you would love me, you would have sex with me or I will leave you or, you know, what kind of woman are you who can't satisfy a boyfriend. Well, those are very coercive language and they, but at the end of the day, you have to decide if, you know, you're interested in having sex as a woman. And if you're interested in having sex and then all of the father to you, but you should be ready for the consequences you should be ready. Are we changing this idea, are we ready to fight back society around judging our character based on our virginity. You know, that's the big question, are we going to, and this is for both men and women, I feel as much as well. Are we going to stop giving a character certificate to women based on the idea if they're virgins or not, you know, and that is it women, you cannot judge women based on that hymen like you say. You know, I just remembered that it's not just in ancient India with the property. When Princess Diana got married in 1980, she was submitted to a virginity test, and it's still part of the law over here that the future Queen of England has to go through a virginity test. I mean, how awful is that. I'm not sure if Meghan Markle and Kate Middleton actually went through a virginity test. Well, I think that they didn't actually talk about it. Well, Meghan Markle was not the edge. She was not the future Queen. So, yeah, Harry was not the next in the line. But I think with Kate Middleton, if there was any of this the stories weren't published. You know, I do think that I don't think the virginity is such a, it doesn't have the same ring in the Western world as it has in India. But it still is, like men still desire a virgin, the idea of a virgin still exists, even in the Western world like you're saying. So I don't think it's devoid. Like, I think it's less of a character certificate, but this idea and sometimes it's actually contrary because people always sometimes say, oh, a virgin is tighter, you know, there's the thing. But if we actually ask people about their first sexual experience, what you would hear most of the time is rarely have people said that their first sexual experience has been a good one. It has been painful. It has been boring. Somebody has ejaculated too soon. People have been worried if they're doing it right. You know, before they know it's over. They didn't even realize, like the stories that we hear about bad first experiences are so many. I rarely come across and quite rightly, right? You're inexperienced. So you don't know what you're doing. You're worried more than enjoying it more. So in some ways for me, it's so contrary that you actually are not the sexual experience is actually not going to be a good one just simply because that's just the passage of life, you know, it's the inexperience, the worry, the stress and everything that is involved with it. You know, I come across an amazing story from the northeast of India. So it's I think of Assamese origin around that area where there's this man who feels that he's not big enough so he goes for surgery. It's about a 400 year old story. And he goes for surgery to be to be enhanced on his balance to get a larger balance. And the doctor says to him, he says, you know, I can make it much bigger, but there are going to be a couple of things that you will never be able to do again. And one of them is you will never again be able to have sex with a virgin, because you will be too big to be able to penetrate a virgin. And he says to him, he says, Virgin, they're overrated. I don't think that that's an enjoyable thing to do anyway. I don't want to do that. I would rather be big. And I was just thinking it always makes me laugh that story because it has two sides of it. Is it that suddenly the fact that you're going to be so big that it overcomes any other preconceptions that you might have had about virginity being a good thing or the fact that he really does believe that well, virginity is overrated and that's not what he wants. Yeah, and what I agree, you know, in some ways, this is the idea. Are you looking for a good sexual experience or are you looking for a virgin, right? Like, really, people should ask that question. Because if you want to enjoy sex, that is going to take some time with your partner till you, you know, gain the experience, learn about each other, get comfortable, enjoy the experience, find pleasure in it. Initial couple of times, there is, you know, there is a little bit of stress about am I doing it right, am I getting it right, you know, what do I need to do, how do I need to do it and everything. So to find the rhythm takes some time. And that's just the way it is. So, you know, so this idea is really overrated, I actually think, about having sex with a virgin and obviously, you know, and the consequences of it on society and on women are so significant that I wish it would just end. So I guess in closing what we would like to say is that whether you choose to be a virgin or not is entirely your decision. You will decide when you want to lose your virginity and you should be able to decide if you do not wish to lose your virginity. But whether the hymen has any medical significance, no, it doesn't. It's that the membrane being there will not either improve your health or make it worse. So the hymen does not actually serve any medical purpose. The idea of basing an identity on whether you lose your virginity or whether it is intact, basing your honor on it, basing your future on it. That is something that we would like to see disappear from our society. We would like to get rid of that term, because this term perpetuates a narrative. It gives a great deal of blessing to perpetrators. And it also carries forward a great deal of control. This is where the control comes over women. And I think this is something that we would like to lose. So I think that losing your virginity or not having sex should be a decision, which is personal to you. But talking about it in those terms becomes a societal impact. And I think that's something that we would like to get rid of. Amita, is there something that you would like to add to this? No, I really hope that in the future, both men and women actually stop giving that character certificate based on this idea of virginity. And this idea is global. I completely agree with it. Like women or men should not be judged based on the idea of virginity. And that's what I want to leave people with this idea, this thought. As always, do like, comment, subscribe on the channel. If you have any questions, please send them into info.seema.anand at gmail.com. And if you wish to get in touch with Amita about therapy, please do contact her on amita madanbehel.com. We will see you next week. See you next time.