 I just want to start out by saying welcome back to all those who are just re-elected. Congratulations. Bravo! Bravo! Yeah, so I'm going to call this meeting to order and the first thing is to review and approve the agenda. So are there any changes folks have in mind for the agenda? First thing is to swear people in. Oh, okay. Well, let's do that first then. John, you want to take that away? Sure. All our three winners, please raise your right hand and I have to click away to see the oath so if you make faces at me I'll never know. All right. Sorry, one moment. Here we go. And again, there's two oaths because Vermont wants to know you really, really mean it. So, okay. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that you will be true and faithful to the state of Vermont and that you will not directly or indirectly do any act or thing injurious to the Constitution or government thereof so help you God or under the pains and penalties of perjury? I do. I think I heard all the ideas. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that you will faithfully execute the office of council member for the city of Montpelier and will therein do equal right and justice to all persons to the best of your judgment and ability according to law so help you God or under the pains and penalties of perjury? I do. Great. You are all back in. Yay. Congratulations again. Wonderful. So, I'm guessing that folks don't have any changes that they want to make to the agenda. Any, any comments on that? Okay, I do see some members of our legislative delegation here and we are so delighted to have you. I mean, you can see the agenda for yourself just but just to let you know we have some process things that we need to take care of first and then some appointments and then we'll, we'll get to chatting with you all. So, even next step is well actually there were no changes to the agenda. Is that correct? Okay, so without objection we'll consider the agenda approved and so on to general business and appearances. This is an opportunity for any member of the public to address the council on an issue that is otherwise not on our agenda. And if you have something to say related to one of the agenda items we'll talk about that just adjacent or part of that agenda item. But if it's not related now is the time if you could say your name, where you live and try to keep your comments to about two minutes, that would be fabulous. So, any, anyone have comments that they would like to make? Oh, and you can raise your, you can actually physically wave or you can use the raise hand icon or. Yeah, I see you there. Edward, thank you. And I think there's another way. I think those are probably the best. Yeah, if you're on a phone, you can unmute yourself. It's star six. Yeah. Stephen, did you want to make a comment as well? Yeah, I'll go second. Okay, that's fine. All right. Edward, go ahead. Hi, I just feel that it is appropriate and feel the fact that nobody knows me. And I do not intend to be a voice in your meeting, but I am a resident of Pennsylvania. And I am considering coming up to your neck of the woods and I was looking at the town website and I noticed that this meeting was going on tonight. And I thought it would be a good way for me to get a taste of the political scene up there. And I just thought it would be inappropriate for me just to have my name there and not identify myself. I will also take this opportunity to congratulate all of you reelected council people. Congratulations. But I'm going to go back on mute and just listen for a while. Thank you. Okay, well thanks for introducing yourself and we're so glad to have you here as a part of this meeting and yeah, hope that you end up making it up this way. All right, thank you. Steve and go ahead. Yeah, I want to apologize to Edward for our website city website, but that's another story. It's a long running issue. At the last meeting where I spoke I raised the issue of minutes. Actually, I filed a notice of violation of open meeting law for not having the minutes of the police review committee up on the web. And somebody seems to have, you know, John Odom at least responded and said I'll look into this, but that triggers a five day response, an official five day response. And no one bothered to respond to my notice of violation. Nobody bothered to tell me that we've, you know, created some minutes afterwards. No one bothered to send me notices of the upcoming meetings or the meeting that was held in the interim. I like my requests to one of the members of the committee, Lauren, the councilor Lauren, but I'm concerned in that, for instance, the agenda for the Montpelier police review committee is dated the 24th. And it doesn't have a time meeting on it. There's some draft minutes there from February 22. But how, how could you have moved the meeting two days prior to the date that the agenda or was the gender crafted after the meeting. But when you've got minute draft minutes from the 22nd and you've got an agenda for the 24th, something's a little out of whack. But you've got two agendas up for tomorrow and for the next day. And I don't, I really don't think that somebody's taking this seriously. And then I get a snarky, you know, a response back to request for the recording from our city manager that says we don't record it and we don't have to, you know, it's like, this is, this is not a trivial exercise. It's a very serious matter where we're trying to right size our police department and find out where the accountability is slipping. And we can't even keep proper records or worn meetings properly is, it's pretty atrocious. And I humorously noted to Councillor Richardson today, I think all this stems from the fact that we're a dot org instead of a dot gov. So we're behaving more like a slip shot nonprofit than a municipal government. And maybe it'll just be remedied when we get a new website and get our domain straightened out to a dot gov. That's enough for now. Thank you, Steven. Bill, do you want to address any of that after after he provided us the information we went back to make sure everything had been posted properly and asked to be done. He asked for recordings of the meetings and I told him we don't record them and reminded him that we don't have to. So he's correct. But we believe everything's been posted, but we will go back and double check to make sure we're doing everything properly. I believe I still do a response to my notice of violation within five days. You know, this is ripe for Superior Court and I just think we're flying in the face of our very important foundational public records and open meeting loss. Okay, thank you, Steven. That's been noted and we'll follow up as appropriate. So, alright, anyone else? Okay. Alright, so we're going to move on to the consent agenda. Is there a motion? I'll make a motion that we approve the consent agenda. Second. Okay, so there's a motion and a second. Any further discussion? Okay, seeing none. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Aye. And opposed. Okay, so the consent agenda passes. And so now we have some organizational items that we need to address. We address these every year at the start of a new session. So since we just had town meeting day and we're just swearing in just about half of our council. Now's the time to do these things. So actually for each of these, I'm going to turn this over to Bill to walk us through. Unless you don't want, I mean, I think they are pretty self-explanatory, but if you have anything you want to say about them, go ahead, Bill. No, ma'am, but I'm happy to do it, Madam Mayor. Thank you. So the first item is electing officers. You typically elect a, and in fact, according to Charter, you elect a president, a vice president, and a parliamentarian of the council. The president presides at meetings if the mayor is not present. The vice president presides at meetings if the mayor and president are not present. Parliamentarian, of course, makes rulings on parliamentary procedure as the year goes on. So those are the offices and their roles. And in all fairness, occasionally the president or vice president also will get called in to pinch if the mayor is out of town and there's some sort of ceremonial event. So they are sort of the second and third in line of the elected officials. So typically one of you nominate someone and then you go through the process of making elections. So I think we should probably do this in order here. So just, oh yes, Jack, go ahead. Jack, I can't hear you for some reason. I was going to ask, who are the officers now? Well, that's a good question. I wasn't sure who was vice president. I'm also not sure who vice president was last time. Donna, I thought you were president. Yeah. And I thought you had to go away so I don't get to do anything. That's true. Especially this last year. Dan, go ahead. I was just going to say Jack was vice chair of vice president and I was parliamentarian. There you go. Oh, you mean you were official? So one question is I'm going to not necessarily assume that folks want to be those same roles or there may be other people that are interested in those roles. But just to have a process here, I'm going to ask each of those who were in that role if you are interested in continuing. Donna, where are you interested in continuing to be? Right, but I was also going to trade with Jack if he wanted to be president. He expressed some interest last year. And when I talked to him earlier, he wasn't sort of decided. Jack, what do you think? For my screen, Jack, where did you? Oh, he's having trouble with his computer. Oh, well, I wonder if we should wait because if Jack's not here. I don't see. I feel like Jack is unfortunately left the meeting. Maybe out of respect for Jack, we should move on to one of the other items that doesn't remove other people's interest. I mean, to shortcut other people who might be interested in any of these positions. I think he should be here if we're going to. He's back. Oh, Jack, you're back. We can't hear you. Still can't hear you. Just curious. And we have no chat function. Jack nods your head. Do you want to be president and I'll be vice president this year? There we go. So Jack is interested in being president. Has anyone else interested in being president? Okay. And so, okay, Connor, yes, what's up? Move to nominate Jack as the council president. I'll second that. Okay. Any further discussion? All in favor, please say aye. Aye. And Jack, are you thumbs up or thumbs down? Thumbs up. Okay. After a very bad start here. Make it work. Make it work. All right. And actually, to be fair, I'd like to do all of the nominations together just for expediency. So is anyone else? Donna, you're interested in vice vice president. Right. But yes, I am. Is anyone else interested in vice president? I'm happy I don't continue. Okay. All right. And, Dan, do you have interest in continuing on as parliamentarian? I'm happy to do it. It's a weighty responsibility. But as we can see in the U.S. Senate, it's an important function. So I'm happy to do so. Is anyone else interested in being parliamentarian? Okay. All right. So is there a motion? Yeah. Okay. Besides Jack. Move to nominate Donna Bates as council vice president. And Richard Senate parliamentarian. I'll second that. Okay. Motion is second. Any further discussion? Okay. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Aye. Sorry. And Jack, was that a thumbs up? That was an aye. Okay. All right. All right. So thank you. Donna or Jack and Donna and Dan for stepping up into those roles. Certainly appreciate that. All right. So rules of procedure. So these are not any. Different. I actually, Bill, I'm going to anything you want to say about rules of procedure. Go ahead. I would say for the rules of procedure, the ethics policy and the group norms, typically, the last one is new, but the rules of procedure and ethics policy we typically, you typically adopt each year, even though they don't change much, but it just puts on the record that this group of seven has seen them, read them and adopted them for this year to follow. So there's no question that people have had the time. I will say that for them, for those, I did tweak them a little bit. So there, there's minor changes, but it's just to reflect the practices that we've had. There's nothing substantive. So, and I didn't remember afterward till afterwards to do the sort of cross out and strike out. So I can provide that if you want to wait, but there really isn't anything that's, that's major changes with those. And the same with the group norms. So it was something we started adopting about three or four years ago and some of it was dated. So I just took out the stuff that was older and to just reflect current practice. Any, Dan, go ahead. Sure. I don't have a, any comment. I was actually going to offer a motion. I mean, I didn't read through the materials and I didn't see an issue with them that consistent with what we've had before. I mean, I don't think that's the same. I mean, I don't know if, you know, to the extent I didn't particularly find where Bill did a tweak or not, but, but that's generally because I think they just made sense. And any changes were not major. So I'm, I'm certainly comfortable with it. I'm willing to make a motion that we adopt the city council rules of procedure as proposed. The ethics policy as proposed. And the group norms, the council policies and standards. As proposed. And we need to adopt the city council handbook. No, that's informational. That's essentially, you know, kind of an orientation item for you just to read. We update it's been updated to reflect this year's information. Normally if this were in person, we'd be handing you your copies for the new year. So we will, we, for those that would like hard copies, we can make those available, but they are, you have the link to it. Okay. So there's been a motion and a second. Any discussion on those three items? Okay. Great. So all in favor, please say aye. Aye. Okay. And I saw Jack raise his hand. And opposed. Okay. So all of those past rules and procedures, ethics policy and the group norms. Just for the sake of again, expediency, I think we should move the committee assignments until after we hear from, or through the other appointments and here from our, our delegation, if that is all right with everyone. That probably makes sense. Okay. Great. So we have some appointments to make to the homelessness task force, the conservation funding committee, and to the central public safety authority and to the library. And so for those, you have, we'll, again, I think we should hear if, if folks are present, we'll hear from all of those candidates now. So that's me, a clamor or D brush, Doug Hoyt, and Graham sheriff. And I'm just going to check to see if we have any of those folks with us. And I don't think that we do. I quite is here. Oh, I'm sorry. Of course I even saw you previously. My apologies. In a winter wonderland even. So Doug, would you like to just introduce yourself to the council? Although I know many of us. I know who you are, but nonetheless, if you would introduce yourself and tell us about your interest in connection to the CV PSA. Got to do the mute. My name is Doug Hoyt. I've been a Montpelier resident for pretty much all of my life. And probably more in line with what this appointment would be to return to the central public safety authority. My 40 years in law enforcement, 26 as chief of police, I think I know a little bit about what's going on with the area of communications, which is the foundation of the public safety authority. I would hope that I would be able to lend my experience. To the endeavors of the. Plus that allows me to keep down a company. So. Well, you might want to mention you served on this board before. I kind of thought I did that, but. Okay. I may have missed it. Sorry. It's all right. I sometimes miss things too. It happens when you get a little older. Yes. I served two years on, on the authority. And I was thinking of leaving all together, but subsequently changed my mind. The, the one thing that's in front of the authority is. Opportunity to work with a reputable vendor to really make significant changes to the communications. And so I, I think that's going to be a big step forward for. Not only my player, but my player Barry and, and hopefully other communities within the region. Any questions for Doug? Yeah, Donna, go ahead. Certainly. I just want to mention Doug's been an outstanding contributor. He's been very generous with his time and expertise. He's been an at-large elected member in the past. So I would just hope that you would support this appointment. Thank you. All right. Any other. The applicants here, need a clam or DD brush or Graham share it. Okay. So. We can either go into executive session or we can. Stay here. What's whatever. You think is best here. Dan, go ahead. Oh, you're muted though. Okay. I think we've adopted a policy before wanting to go into executive session. So I'll make a motion. That we go into executive session to consider the, the appointment of these. These particular nominees for these positions pursuant to one VSA section three 13. Second. Hey, there's a motion and a second. And so any further discussion? So just, I guess we should probably vote first. All right. All in favor, please say aye. Hi. Hi. And post. Okay. So just everyone knows this line will stay open. The counselors are going to disappear for a little while and we will be back shortly. So moved. Second. Motion and a second. Any further discussion? Okay. All in favor, please say aye. Hi. Okay. And. Is there. Opposed. Right. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay is their motion. Yeah, I'll make a motion. I, I move that we appoint the following individuals to following boards. D.D. Brush to the conservation funding commission. Doug Hoyt to the central Vermont public service authority, Ram sheriff to the library board. And a nea clamor to the homelessness task force as a Yeah. Okay. Okay. The motion and a second. Any further discussion? Okay. All in favor of the aye. Aye. Aye. And opposed. All right. Well, thank you all for your time, for your service. We appreciate that. Donna, go ahead. I just want Doug to leave. I need to ask John Odom to do the oath for Doug. The Public Safety Authority Charter requires that they do the oath before they can take their place on the Central Mont Public Safety Authority Board. Sure. You're gonna have to give me a sec to pull it back up because I think I closed the window with the oath. You think I'd have that memorized? I should have given you a heads up of the possibility. Sorry. That is all right. It won't take me but a moment. I was gonna say it feels like deja vu all over again to be in March at a city council meeting with Ann Cummings and Doug Hoyt. Okay. Hang on. Just a sec. Almost there. And Mary Hooper too, although I don't see her. Okay. All right. There she is. Okay. I can't see you right now, but if you would raise your right hand, Mr. Hoyt. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that you will be true and faithful to the state of Vermont and that you will not directly or indirectly do any act or thing injurious to the Constitution or government thereof so help you God or under the pains and penalties of perjury? I do. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that you will faithfully execute the Office of Central Vermont Public Safety Authority member for the city of Montpelier and will there and do equal right and justice to all persons to the best of your judgment and ability according to law so help you God or under the pains and penalties of perjury? I do. You are duly sworn. Thank you. Thank you, Mayor. Thank you, John. Thank you, Ben. Awesome. We appreciate again your commitment to the Public Safety Authority. All right. Well, I think we are up to checking in with our legislative delegation here. Now we have a we do have a committee dedicated to that. And I know we are certainly interested in hearing an update from you all as to how things stand and how things are progressing. But I also want to give our legislative committee an opportunity to say anything before we jump in here. Connor or Lauren? I would just say it has been excellent having this subcommittee. First off, we are trying to keep tabs on what is going on under the dome. And it has really opened up great conversations with our legislators who are really grateful to come in. I think we teed it off, okay, a couple of months ago at the beginning of the session. But a lot of moving pieces definitely with the COVID packages coming down and a few different items. So I'm not sure if we have any specific questions from the committee, but would just love to hear an update. So thanks so much. Yeah. So if you have any updates for us, we would be happy to hear them. On behalf of the committee, when we last talked, I think the committee was interested in hearing. So what the big issues were obviously for the legislators, if there was anything that we ought to be aware of or that we could be helpful in. And then obviously if there were things that on the agenda that we approved that we've cheered with them that we ought to know about or if they could give us an update on how they're moving. Obviously probably not every specific thing on the list. But any general comments we want to check in? It's sort of in theory midway through the session. So we hear how it's going. Well go ahead to Anthony and then Mary. Hi, you can hear me okay? Yep. This is kind of a random one actually. But last time we were here we talked about and I know you've talked about it otherwise about giving more power to local municipalities. And we drafted sorry we drafted a bill last year that was intended to do that sort of a pilot project where a certain number of towns or cities would be local municipalities would be given the ability to change certain laws, make decisions on their own. We looked at it again. We passed out of the Senate last year. I went to the house and it basically didn't come out in any real way. So we were looking at doing it again in the Senate. This is not a happy ending to the story I should warn you. We looked at it again and then got up to the government operations committee the last couple of weeks and we realized that in putting together the pilot project for what towns could do, we render a lot of pressure to exempt certain things like the towns could do anything they want to do. But as long as it doesn't have to do with the environment or it doesn't have to do with guns or it doesn't have to do with water quality. It doesn't have to do with police, doesn't have to do with setting speed limits, whatever. There was this whole list of things you couldn't do as part of this plan to help you do things. So the more we thought about it, the more we decided that we have to put that aside and we're going to instead probably look at the proposals that are coming before us that would allow towns to make changes to their charter or to their laws. If something has already been accepted by the legislature once, if the town has asked for a charter change to do X, Y, and Z and the legislature said yes, there would be other towns could be able to do the same thing without having to go through the whole process. So we're looking at the possibility of changing the charter process more than anything else. I just thought you should know that because I know it's near and dear to a lot of our hearts to try to give more power to the localities and we talked about it amongst ourselves and within Mont League of Cities and Towns and basically by the time we were done talking about it we just threw up our hands and said there's no sense in doing this because we have a pilot project that allows you to do anything you want to do as long as it doesn't include anything important. So we're rethinking where we should go with that. So I put that out there. Yeah, Conor, do you have a comment on that? Yeah, I know, sure. But along those lines, Anthony was watching the house floor today and it looks like the non-U.S. citizens voting charter change passed 103 to 39 in the second rating there so expecting it's going over to Senate government operations soon. Do you have any sense of if we're in better shape than we were last biennium? I think we might be a little better shape because of a little bit of a change in leadership quite honestly that might make a difference. I mean to not tell them stories out of school to tell you that last time the pro tem didn't like the idea and that made a big difference as we only talked about it in caucuses and whatnot. You know it's hard to argue against the pro tem who doesn't want to bring something up. This time I think we might have an easier time making that happen. So again not promising but I think if I had a guess I'd guess we're in a little better shape than we were last time and we were in pretty good shape last time. It wasn't like we were overwhelmingly people were not overwhelmingly negative but there were just some people who were saying no we don't want to do this and they happen to be people that had a lot of sway amongst them amongst the caucus. So I think we may be better off this year than we were last year. Great thank you. Mary? Well so Connor stole my phone Dirk. I thought yes I can tell you we did something that was good and he even told you what the vote was. So yeah so it is you know we'll do a third reading tomorrow and it'll head over to the Senate. John did a really nice job testifying in House GovOps and the GovOps committee did a really nice job on the floor and yeah so that was great to see happen. I guess maybe the other things that I can just mention that I'm thinking about so you know that I'm on the Appropriations Committee and we're kind of right in the midst of getting a bill out that is changing on a seemingly daily basis with the new federal money coming in. We're trying to sort out what does that mean in terms of the state budget but and one of the things we have thought about is that municipalities at large are going to see a really substantial amount of money and there is a sense that not places like Montpelier which are large and well really well managed and you know have resources but little places are going to need help figuring out what to do with the amount of money coming down. So we're trying to think about how to put some technical assistance in for both municipalities and probably working with the League of Cities and Towns and Regional Planning Commissions and similarly concerned about education districts you know having the resources to figure out how to make smart decisions and I think that's going to be added to the COVID recovery bill that is now over in the Senate so that may be happening fairly quickly and we've all I mean I'm sure you all have certainly Bill it has resources that are trying to tell him what the federal package may be and I talked with some of you this weekend and in fact it's less money coming to the to the communities than we had thought and more going to the state but it's just all it's all being sorted out and it's going to take weeks and weeks to really understand this one of the significant things is unlike the last 1.25 billion that the state received which came very rapidly and we were able to deploy very rapidly this new money which is over a billion dollars is going to come with they're going to write rules and regulations and in fact the state may have to apply for the money I'm assuming that may be similarly true for the municipalities so it is not going to happen as quickly we are easily two months away probably from being able to get that money out there um other than the money that goes directly you know in terms of unemployment insurance payments and other supports that are going directly out there um but sorry for talking so long but what we experienced last year is going to be different than what I believe we will be experiencing this year and it's changing daily so what we thought we knew is changing constantly so I have a couple questions about that so I'm curious about whether or not that in the either in the COVID relief package or in the funding that's going the state if there are if there's going to be money carved out for well or or any kind of protections against evictions or those who may be in jeopardy losing their homes huge amount of money coming down for rental assistance more money than we are going to be able to spend which is really frustrating we're trying to be very creative in terms of figuring out how to hang on to it and um but some of the restrictions are that at least with the 200 million that we got in January which was allocated out it is only available um for households that are at 80 percent of the area medium income so there's a lint income cap on it it's not dealing with evictions but it is dealing with rent support or vouchers um so there are restrictions and again we're trying to be resourceful in terms of of figuring out how to hang on to it but there is a huge amount of money coming in for rental assistance but in restricted categories thank you that's helpful thank you and then backing up a topic I just want to make sure that I'm clear on what you were saying about the money coming to municipalities so your your anticipation is that for a city the size of Montpelier that the guidelines that you are talking about may they may not apply to us or or do you think those guidelines that you're that are you know mainly being crafted with smaller municipalities in mind still may apply to us no I was one just trying to say that broadly there is a concern about providing technical assistance to municipalities and school districts so that they can take advantage and wisely figure out how to deploy this money I see so I do not know what guidelines or restrictions or process there is at all for the municipalities they are just what we do know is what we received last time is not the way it's going to be managed this time okay thank you that that makes sense so and so that was technical assistance that would be available um which we might not necessarily need so the state is talking about what can we do to help municipalities and school districts get ready to take advantage of the federal money so we may put state resources to so that you are positioned maybe not just not on pelier again I think you guys are good at this but that other municipalities are well positioned to take advantage of what might be happening okay okay that that that's helpful uh Donna go ahead just related to your question about renters Mary is this new rent like could some of our homeless individuals use it um do anybody else know on this one I oh yes I think uh yes but so the challenge I believe the answer is yes um but the challenge is again um finding housing now that is that fits and and they know more about this than I thank you go ahead and you're muted okay too well behaved um I think it was at moneychairs somewhere today um I heard that the issue is again finding the housing and we are doing everything we can to get more housing and that some of it we can't use it to pay the motels but some of the motels do do a month long lease and that might qualify as rent so all I can tell you is we are working as creatively as possible just to to get as much money out there and on the ground and doing as much good as we can great super um anything else you want to add and I know you had your hand up oh yeah um I think the technical assistance part um I chair finance and finance the schools got some major grants the last time and they weren't all used and we had some discussions with the head of the school finance directors about why you know um and at some of it was just concerned that if they didn't do it right there might be a clawback um that uh you know if my pillar in a national standard is pretty small in a Vermont standard we're big and we're sophisticated um but you get out in to some of the smaller communities and they don't have the resources and I think that's the technical assistance I think we all know one time money is one time money and some of the concern is you since there's so much pressure on the property tax you could use one time money to buy down your property tax for three years and then it goes away and your property tax jumps and you have nothing in the end except a falsely lowered property tax so I think we're trying to think through what kind of capital investments we're thinking about HVAC systems in schools because we have schools and some serious disrepair we have public buildings and so that you know just to help communities think through when we finish this what are we going to have because after two years Mary's going back to the same gap between revenue and expenses that has been chronic um on you were talking about old old times with Doug and myself being here I was doing flashbacks today um we had the municipal utilities in and they were asking for some flexible rate stuff and the proposal was to require that they come in for a rate hearing every so many years and I said John I'm having flashbacks to when I we have to take charter changes up to the legislature and they told me the people of Montpelier didn't understand what they were voting for and they were going to fix it and they were going to give the mayor the right or obligation to vote on every issue and um I told them please don't help us any more than we had to and yes the people how big was the print so it's to be careful what you asked for there's a risk but it got into the discussion of kind of our attitude towards the municipalities I think you heard it with senator Polina there's a tendency to not trust that you know what you're doing um and that's interesting the other issue that came up today that might be of interest is last I think the Friday before we went on town meeting break so we just took it up this week we got a bill uh going back to the old senate position on marijuana sales revenue and right now I guess the towns will get a fee to be set by the state and can be you but um it's set from what we heard today to cover your cost um any revenue will fall to the state and then I guess we can decide if you get it and this bill sponsored by senator white from gub ops goes back to the senate position of last year which is the 14% excise tax 2% of that would be dedicated to go to municipalities that have a cannabis establishment that is the new term of eye which is growing manufacturing labs or retail there's apparently another cannabis bill we have to have all the bills that came directly to finance out by Friday um this is crunch week and um I'm not sure if we'll get that one out because we can probably find someplace else to put it but that's one I thought you might it's called the Christmas tree and I like to decorate um you can usually find another bill to hang something on but that one is out there um and they seem to get fairly sympathetic hearing today so we might get it out that's really good to know um thank you yeah um phil go ahead just quickly on not on the cannabis but we talk about the funding certainly can appreciate the desire to help cities and towns and school districts with technical assistance I hope I guess I just urge is a general matter that whatever flexibility can be built into the funding please do you know the I appreciate that we might want to do HVAC systems and I'll but really the ability to let a school district or a town decide where their priorities are rather than have those set by the state I think would be really helpful we have we have a long list of infrastructure things and things that we've delayed as a result of COVID um and you know they may or may not include HVAC but they're just as they're they're important to us and um you know we we didn't lower our taxes but we didn't raise it this year because we cut all the off out to cover for our lost revenues so yeah whatever we can put back so I just urge as much flexibility as possible to to let the local establishments I think those decisions flexibility is prime with us it's the feds that frequently make it difficult but I think we understand part of this COVID discussion today was you know towns have been under so much pressure in the property tax that they need a new source of revenue to do things like fill potholes or just any one of those things I think the concern is because some folks are afraid you know these get highly technical our joint fiscal office has been working for weeks trying to understand and we still don't completely understand what's the strings are going to come with the federal money to to make sure that the assistance is there and understanding what you can and can't do the administration has actually hired a consultant guidehouse that does that initial vetting as to whether or not this proposal for spending money would meet the criteria so we've got help and I think we're just trying to give some surety to local towns that what they're proposing is going to meet you know I think the technical assistance is a great idea it was more to the extent that the state is shaping what towns or school districts can use the money for I think help I'm not too HVAC came up because of COVID and that was one place we specified money was I know Montpelier when my children were there was known as a Petri dish and it Donna probably remembers we did a major um air quality investment in the high school because um there were concerns about the quality of the air in the school Lauren did you have a question related to that yeah just on this topic so this is all really helpful to hear um also hoping and I've talked to Representative Hooper a little bit about this but um that part of you know technical assistance is great also thinking about matching funds you know given this that most of the money is going to the state and how can you know could municipalities leverage bigger projects because of the kinds of you know I understand it sounds like it's going to be weeks as you dig into what the different pots of money can be used for but once that is kind of sussed out um you know obviously with water projects and transportation projects and efficiency and all kinds of things that we we want to do as a community and the state wants to do and meet state policy goals just you know probably it'll be great to get back with you all and you know a month or six weeks or whatever it's the right timing um as you understand those state pots of money too you know so as making as smart decisions as possible for both of what will eventually come to Montpelier but also if there's opportunities for state funding for this one time that we could be well positioned to um you know take advantage of as much as possible I don't know if Mary knows yet but initially there was a huge amount of money going to counties and New England I think we decided we have two side judges and a sheriff and that's county government and um and I don't that there's been discussion about would that money come to would it just not come here would it come to the state would it come to the towns would it and I don't know Mary have you no you're on me I'm muted it's I I don't we don't know the answers to these questions yet I mean we're we're working off pieces of paper not the the bill remember the bill has not even become law yet so we're ways to go um Madam Mayor will you take the plan on this um yeah let's let's hold off for a second though because I'd like to hear from uh uh Andy from Senator Prischlik's thank you for your patience thanks for for doing this again I was just going to give some updates of things that I've either worked on or we've talked about in the past there are four of them that I think that's the city we care about one on your list of legislative priorities was the restrictive needs that we talked a little bit about and I did a the quite a bit of research on it's pretty interesting I had some interesting conversations with title attorneys and and lawyers and Ledge Council and stuff that there are states that have legislative fixes to this problem it's not a huge problem like it's pretty rare talk to title attorneys that do titles every day all day and they said it comes up like maybe once a year once every couple years but they are out there and so I'm going to work up a bill with Ledge Council because of you the fact that you guys brought it up the question is kind of what what do we do a couple states have waived filing fees so so this would be something for the city to consider because if somebody came in and said okay I want to have a new title would you would you be okay with us waiving the fees that that that the city or town would normally charge for that and then I was thinking is there a way for some people we could even get them the attorney's fees because I know maybe attorney Richardson would have an idea are there is like there could be some families that find out about this but just the effort to hire attorney to even though it's a simple new straw deed it's still still hiring a lawyer hopefully lawyers would do that pro bono but you never know so that's an update but I can answer any questions if you have on that but we are I'm going to move forward on that the Montpelier microtransit we I organized the hearing today and senate transportation went well sustainable Montpelier was there and a lot of you know good things were said about Montpelier and the microtransit are the my ride as you call it yes and so but that the committee was really interested in in this working out and I think it's a really you know a good a good mark on Montpelier that we were the pilot project for that I think it's going to be great as it as it expands and I have a lot of confidence in that there was one homelessness thing there were there is some money for the good Samaritan shelter to buy a hotel I don't know if you guys know about that no Mary says now it's not going through well no let's just be careful so in the COVID relief bill we put 10 million on the house side we added 10 million dollars of CRS money for to Vermont housing and conservation for we're we're deeply aware of and they know that central Vermont needs a solution and and it's really exciting that good Sam has some ideas but I think we are a few steps away we need just to be careful about saying yep that's done um but but one of the I mean we're very aware of the need to create more housing and we're looking for ways to fund it right I guess it's something that I'm I would raise them you know something I'm aware that I hope to make happen the other thing that you probably know about that we're working on we're going to pass a bill on the people waiting study people call the people waiting study but it's it's more than a study because the study already happened so the way this states education funding formula works with how people are weighted they're going to change and the way it's going to change is very likely going to mean it's going to be to raise the same amount of money in my failure you would have to raise that and your race access to raise the same amount of money so that I haven't looked at the model for Montpelier recently but when I looked at it before Montpelier is one of those towns that the rates were going to go up so because other towns that have are either rural more rural have more poor families in this school or more families that are you know English is a second language they would be able to raise the more money in the same amount of that so it's something that you know the city probably just wants to be aware of as they're looking at property taxes on the education side and I'm I'm still interested in district heating if there's anything that we can do maybe especially with the federal money you know is the federal money that helped us build the district heating plant in the first place the plant in the district heating so you know this could be another once in 10-year opportunity to do something else there so happy to work with this city on that issue and I the only other issue that I had worked on city related was the rail stuff but you know I did some research and reported back and I think hopefully we're okay on that but if you have anything else that you need on there let me know yeah that was really helpful about the rail last time so thank you so much for doing that that research and getting back to us about it and you know as far as district heat goes I think that may be a component of the longer net zero energy 10-year plan that the city is contracting out right now we haven't announced who our partner is yet for that but we're gonna be announcing that soon and they'll that partner will be helping us develop a 10-year plan and we've we've talked about the role district heat might play in that plan so it's you know it's not an answer for right now but it's you know hopefully more to come soon on that any other thoughts questions comments uh Lauren and then Dan and then I know Stephen you had a comment but we'll go in that order go ahead this this you might not know yet either I was just curious if we know yet would for the municipal money do we know yet the timeline of when it would need to be spent by no okay well um like I had seen something about 2024 or other yeah for a lot of it but I didn't know if that applies to this money as well I haven't heard that it explicitly about this money but the good news is that the federal money writ large is um actually some of it is out to December 24 so that's exciting it gives us a much better horizon to make some good decisions um and incidentally given the district heat conversation and some of these others there is also a pot of money for capital expenses so that's exciting in terms of opportunities there and I I don't know what that means for the municipalities but we're you know we'll be figuring out how to see how it comes down to you all um and you know that there is also some so there's pretty significant spending around broadband and we're going to put that one's real clear and I think we'll push it out a little more quickly there's also some pretty significant funding for uh water related issues so this may be yeah this could be something pretty good for you know wastewater or water supply um and boy I bet Montpelier could spend you know whatever we're all getting for the whole state as is true of a lot of municipalities but there's some really neat opportunities potentially here for us all that's great um I can go ahead and then and then just to check uh senator Cummings did you still have your hand your your hand and then I need to take it down okay I just thought I'd check okay uh yeah Dan go ahead sure um I think I think two points one is um I'm excited to hear about um you know some of these opportunities for projects uh or funding for projects at the municipal level you know certainly one of the issues that I think is important is the it's a bathroom issue that we continue to sort of push forward um both in the short term and long term um and I've had discussions with constituents about that and creating different options um so it would certainly be helpful to keep that on on on the forefront funding for such projects and um the other part is out you know at least as far as the the county uh spending questions a really interesting one because you're absolutely right that you know New England is not a county strong system but you go you know really Pennsylvania on west and the counties play a major role um and it doesn't necessarily translate it's not like towns do the same things that counties do out west you know in Washington state counties do more than what me and spouties do and then the midwest they do this mixture but um you know that would I I would certainly encourage um and certainly we'd be willing to help um in in thinking about this but I think that a lot of that has to come to the municipality because um all of these little towns are tackling a lot of these issues that are usually left to the county so things like a senior center um you know which might be or library system that might be run at the county level it are really run by municipalities um here and so having those at the at the town and city level are going to be really important as opposed to keeping it up at the state level and I'd certainly encourage you to think about that and I'd be happy anytime to testify about county and town differences um because that's a near and near subject to my heart thank you thank you uh Stephen go ahead uh first I want to note uh for the record and we've got three of our uh female mayors here on the line for this occasion uh so that's that's notable um so secondly I asked that we if we're for instance going to get about four million we were about a million and a half shy of the budget prep and round numbers I'm hearing is that we're going to come up here might see about four million from the local uh but I don't want there to be I'm not sure the state will uh legislature will have too much ability to put constraints on it but I don't want to I I want to second Dan's comment about public restrooms and I this is somewhat for the state delegation too is that we would be smart right now especially until most businesses get reopened to invest in some of these uh trailers that have uh there's some with multiple stalls of bathrooms with hot running water for hand washing and similar ones for showers and those are reusable in future disasters and hurricane type uh you know irons or whatever so those might be a good investment of state funds just to get us through the next year uh place strategically around the state and around the city um so that those might be if we're going to buy you know 40 of them for the state that's beyond the month of your budget but I don't want to see so much latitude because we had you know we've been gridlocked here about even getting city halls bathroom or the transit center bathrooms open it's it's a real tragedy in a public health emergency of people you know defecating in the streets and alleys so um secondly wi-fi and air circulation uh those are things that may or may not be within the ability of the 4 million that the city might see um I'd like to see about half of that put into public works just to begin getting caught up but air filtration systems for the public buildings even for uh you know rabble rouser or uh I think city hall with the proper air filtration could create some space where people who come and participate in a legislative zoom meeting I don't have the bandwidth to participate in legislative process some people may enjoy that uh other than by telephone and if I could go to city hall and use a zoom you know session and that would that might be useful uh so air filtration and wireless uh capacity even tell on hubbard is is spotty and breaks up regularly outside so we we have we missed the boat on the dps wi-fi grants of free equipment and we should not miss the boat now so I don't really understand which of this should fall to the state but I think we have an opportunity and I say this to this legislative delegation let's make Montpelier an example of how it looks when it's done right and you know it it's a it's a small enough community as a laboratory to do it to do wi-fi really right to do air filtration and public gathering spaces for uh that are safely distanced and air filtered so let's let's spend this wisely but let's uh also address some emergency needs for just public safety and hygiene thanks great thank you steven um any other comments questions from folks um mary did you have some or senator or i'm sorry representative hooper mary works really good thank you um i i just wanted to mention so we've been talking about this enormous amount of money that we're going to see and in fact we're already feeling um the consequence of a lot of what we refer to as one time money so money that is not available for reoccurring expenses and um you know it's the same problem you guys have you have to budget out years and think about you know you don't want to make commitments now that you're not going to be able to um fulfill in future years and um i i just wanted to mention that notwithstanding this huge amount of money that's coming in we're also going to be making really um challenging decisions and you sometimes may be scratching your head and thinking they have so much money why aren't they doing x or y and it has to do with um being constrained by the nature of the money um we we just really try hard not to make ongoing commitments if we only have the money for a year or two to pay for it um and and mentioned earlier the gap between our revenue and our expenditures which is annually on the order of um 50 to 100 million dollars that we have to figure out how to close um or else raise taxes and not particularly happy to do that in this um climate so i just wanted to throw that other piece in there just how we're constrained today thanks so good to see you guys thank you for inviting us yeah thank you thanks for uh thank you all for for coming this evening this was really helpful it's really good to know sort of how things are progressing and uh where where things stand really appreciate your your time and also thank you for your uh commitments i know you all are working very hard uh for all of us so we really appreciate that um yeah thank you yeah any other thoughts comments okay all right well thank you again and uh having excellent rest of your evening and um i just thinking about like are we planning to check in again at some point uh maybe when the session is is over or i'm not sure that that is necessary we can we can chat about that see if that makes sense um so anyway thank you again and have an excellent evening yeah appreciate good night okay all right and so we are we're at 745 and i think we are good to continue on here uh so we are up to the presentation on the water resource recovery facility and so for this i am assuming that we're going to get over to um oh perhaps to Kurt hey good evening we'll start we'll start by just uh introducing our deputy public works director Kurt modica who i think is going to lead us through this uh and our goals are really to give you an update on where phase one is at the construction that's near the end i know we don't want to talk about the PFAS issue somewhat so at least let you know where things stand with that and then i think probably the most important thing is uh moving issues related to moving forward with phase two the energy portion of it so with that turn over to Kurt all right um i did prepare a powerpoint presentation um we have screen sharing abilities Cameron nope hold on just a second sorry you should be good now right okay everybody see the first slide there yes well this is actually a recent aerial view um the plant looks like today uh you can see in the back because um is our digesters have been a big improvement which will allow us to utilize the methane that we're going to produce at the plant for all terms of energy once we get to the phase two component of the project um so i'll just start out like Bill said there's really three topics on this presentation uh we'll go through where we're at on the current project that's underway which is the upgrade to aging infrastructure and the organics to energy work at the plant and then i'll pause there and then we can open it up to questions on that portion of the project then we'll go through the phase two which is combined heat and power which is electrical export to the grid with heat recovery out the engine of the generator and then the last part of the presentation of the um like Bill said just talking about PFAS and where we're at with the regulatory status so jumping into it uh the overview um for the OE the organics to energy and aging infrastructure project what we will talk about what we've done the remaining components of the project when we expect to be complete where we're at with waste hauler agreements future work that was not in the scope of the project and the economics of the upgrade I remember the CHP project we'll talk about the development work we've done to date how much financial investment the city has into the project currently the changes in the estimated project cost since we last spoke to council about it and our next steps moving forward and for the PFAS update we'll discuss the timeline on the surface water discharge limit the status of the coventry landfill with regards to leachate regulations and uh any anticipated impacts from the organics energy project the high strength waste that we'll be taking in so starting off with our current project the aging infrastructure component um these are some pictures from the actual site uh from our plant the new equipment we have um the upper left is our solids processing that's what takes the water out of the sludge it's a great improvement we're able to run we will be able to run this equipment essentially 24 7 previously we had to have staff on site to run dewatering equipment and it's also producing a much drier solids so we're not paying to haul water to the landfill the chain and flight system is the the first set of tanks um where the influence of the water coming from the city waste water coming from the city is uh the solids are settled out we've improved um the way the solids are managed this is a much better system much more efficient so that's been completed the the grit classifier is separates the grit as it comes in prior to these settling tanks and then there's been a lot of electrical improvements to the plant we actually had to shut the power off to the entire plant at one point in order to do some interconnection work and you know our our operators are really great to this project they were able to drain down tanks and provide storage we didn't have any permit violations or anything related to the power shutdown or any other part of the project then just some other work we've done sludge conveyor improvements the the heating ventilation improvements at the plant a lot of um pumps have been improved upgraded to more efficient pumps um with lower horsepower in many cases so we're saving electricity there and uh we added a um a fire alarm in the dewatering building and then for the uh the component of the project related to um organics to energy this is primarily focused around the solids handling component of the plant so the digesters have been improved uh with heating and and high efficiency mixing which generates um more methane and the picture on the bottom is the boiler so we have now we previously had one methane boiler we now have two um so that's that's going to allow us to eat just about the entire facility off methane there's only one building that is not on the loop it's a very small chemical building but all of the rest that we we expect um the oil previously used at the facility to be offset through the methane production and the boilers um other work's been done is we have a new tank that gives us sort of um uh extra space to manage waste um there's been a lot of control work done in order to manage the digesters maintain appropriate levels and there's the new beast receiving unit which screens out um organic waste material like grease which we could not previously uh accept so the work left on the project now um we're still working through some bugs with the methane boilers uh in order to allow them to um move back and forth between oil and methane automatically right now we've had just a few glitches but I think we're getting close on that um the uv system uh the down there's two sets of gates one set of gates to isolate the two channels from each other uh and then the bottom set of downstream gates to regulate the the level in the channels um so that's part of the electrical efficiency of the project so we've always since it was built the plants had to run both channels because we couldn't effectively isolate them um so that's uh remaining work um there was an issue with the downstream gates and we also have some leaking between the channels that we're working through um the that balloon cover on the bigger digester needs to be replaced it was actually um it was the one that was installed as smaller than what um ESG had planned for so they're going to swap that out it's not going to cost the city any money um but that's probably the last thing to get done which may be into june is what they're predicting and then we have to do a final walkthrough and develop a bunch list to include paving and other things with regard to the um high strength waste haulers we've uh council approved a draft contract and we've been negotiating price points with various companies that all waste um the biggest one is wind river which actually um I'm sure some of the council has noticed there is a new building out near the intersection of route two and three oh two um that is a wind river uh that's wind river's site for staging their trucks for hauling and I think you know I think it's fair to say the this project really prompted that development so there's some peripheral benefits to what the city has done here um so we have that can I ask you a question yeah sure um I'm sorry I should have dumped in a little sooner when you mentioned that piece that was smaller than expected that wouldn't cost the city anything right that's a digester two methane okay it'd be smaller how does that impact the functioning we just don't have uh it's really um only an impact for the phase two projects we don't it won't allow us to store as much methane uh in order to really um to make the power that we need to put economics on the phase two project I guess I was thinking that before it was advocated to go to something larger and I can't remember what the advantage was but there's a reason why it was initially designed to be larger so is it going to impact phase two are we going to have it replaced before the phase two project starts it's just a remaining where it's just an issue that came up during construction um somehow and I don't it's really between ESG and their subcontractor but my understanding from them is that uh the cover that was delivered was not what was approved in the submittal so so it'll be changed for phase two is that what you're saying prior to phase two yep okay okay thank you thank you and so when you when you talk about this uh river what was their name again uh wind river wind river that's the one out by the roundabout right yep okay because that came up a couple times at the regional uh transportation group very curious about what that group was uh are there going to be some articles about it in conjunction with this project for the city um I haven't planned on writing an article but that's something interested and certainly can do that no maybe they would be doing something to better introduce themselves and also it could feature our improvements I was thinking it would be a positive article for both us and how they've come in as a business and how this is also supporting what we're doing so I'll just put it out there for you to think about that's all Erin anything you want to add yeah I just wanted to give some context wind river is the company that we uh um contract with for our Porta Johns so Donna that's what they do just wanted to let you know so that's uh that's the company and what they what business they have is Porta Johns well it's it's bigger than they're bringing it to us yes they are yeah yeah yeah so I mean it's a circle it's like it anyway it was a very lively discussion in the regional tack so I thought we should own it that's how success story it really is um so wind river is really going to be so they purchased hard again it was another hauler that was located in middle sex they're really our anchor client they're gonna we have contracted with them for about 40 percent of the capacity of the plant so they're you know a large national company no not just in Vermont and we have that signed contract with them so they're you know they'll be bringing us we anticipate of you know the lion's share of the high strength organic waste um we've also signed contracts with PMP septic also a company that does Porta Johns um and then the other ones are kind of in the works of cycle waste new tech because there are other similar type haulers so these are all trucking companies that take waste from places like Ben & Jerry's and Cabot and all those so we're not actually contracting with uh you know the companies that produce the waste it's the it's the folks that haul it for them that we're contracting um and once we get through um all those remaining items the last part is measurement verification so it's part of our contract with ESG we have to document the changes in electrical use at the plant how many how much chemical use it takes to treat and our change in water use and as well as our tipping fee revenue and compare all that to what the contract says and if there's a shortfall ESG is responsible to cover that difference through the contract so it is an ongoing project that we just need to keep an eye on um and run through those exercises you know at the end of each fiscal year but can I ask have you found it owners to keep ahead of all that data so they can be responsible for any loss we haven't really got into it yet because it doesn't start until the project's accepted and that sort of starts the clock for the guarantee um I don't think it's going to be a terrible undertaking you know the water is a meter um we have actual you know the power is also a meter and chemicals are fairly easy to track so I do think it's it's manageable for sure okay thank you um yeah sure just for I remember there was something about this in the in the sample contractor that we had approved earlier like how does it work for knowing what you're bringing in in terms of if some of some of it is business waste and other things like are there what are the chemical so like we're talking about PFAS later but just like to make sure that that nothing hazardous or emerging contaminants that might be problematic that you know are they required to disclose every all the components from from the more industrial waste or how does that work so we know like if there's potential problems that we might want to get ahead of yeah so they have to provide um an analytical sample of each waste stream and uh each of each type of waste has its own code um in the receiving unit so um they you know because they're all different price points so um say Greece they put in a code when they deliver the truck that probably won't have an analytical breakdown on it because it's you know pretty predictable but other types of waste like dairy can vary a lot so we are requesting sample lab results on those prior to accepting that waste but we'll actually be able to see the analyticles there is also a component in the contract to hold them liable if they're bringing us hazardous waste that disrupts the plant so they need to carry insurance if they were to you know cause issues for treatment was that answer yeah thank you that's very helpful um and so we're looking at project completion in April excluding that um digester cover replacement but everything else um towards the end of April we should be wrapping up this very large um the largest one i've worked on here in my 15 years so you know and i say overall it's been a really successful partnership with the issue so it was a good move and i'll see in the in the financial side which is next um well the one after this one but that's uh that we're doing uh we're in good shape um so just a couple of things that is that we're excluded from the project that will have to be done um uh you know at the plant improvements at the plant there's some bearings that need to be repelled on the big screw pumps um that's really a maintenance item we're planning to do that next year out of our operating budget um the big ones the secondary clarifiers those are the big round tanks at the plant um those were in the original scope and we took it out because of concerns about the overall project cost and um impact of repairs it doesn't really require any design work it's just um contracting the replacement so that's something we can manage ourselves that will be well within the next couple of years we'll be planning to do that work the capital needs assessment identified um a roof replacement on the watering building now that we've invested so much money we'd like to get the exterior lights working again um the secondary blower is really an efficiency project to reduce further electrical use as well as the septic tank mixing we have mixing now but um the more efficient way that we'd like to do it in the future and then of course the phase two project well now the economics um so the bond for the project was 16.75 million so we were able to get the USDA grant at two point just under 2.59 million the PC grant at 2.3 so almost five million in grants um we brought efficiency of Vermont in uh very early in the project and sort of discussed with them equipment selection looking at efficiencies so we do expect them to contribute to the project they're still working through all the numbers and verification somewhere in the range of $50,000 um the other benefit to going with the USDA alone as opposed to the municipal bond bank is that the interest rate was really good so you know our projected cash flow when Todd Provencher was here we were looking at an interest rate of about three and a half percent we're actually paying 1.8 so there's a you know a fairly substantial reduction in estimated annual payments and then of course through the contract the energy water savings is 200,000 a year and the new tipping fee revenue is $255,000 a year so we put all that together um it the actual debt service that the city's paying is very close to what we had identified as a very small improvement project in the master plan of three and a half million um so you know that's good news there's not not going to be you know a major rate hike as a result of the project because of all the benefits to going with a um energy service contract and of course the grant funding certainly helped a lot um and then on the upside we do expect to have uh bring in a little more revenue look these are all guaranteed numbers there's the projected numbers are are higher than um what's guaranteed so I think they'll they'll be upside where it could even be a little bit better than what we're budgeting now so that's pretty much it on the phase one are there any other questions comments or anything that's very good thank you um yeah Kara I have a couple of questions one is with that chemical building that is not going to be connected to the methane heat is that building heated otherwise or is it a non-heated building it is heated by oil yeah and for the other buildings is it um or I I'm sort of making assumption that we're leaving the oil system there as a backup is that accurate yes it is yeah so there's another I believe we have four other boilers at the facility pretty much every building has its own kind of backup boiler yeah sure makes sense um okay I think that's it for me any other questions I can't see everybody so go ahead and unmute yourself and jump in if you have a question could could I jump in now oh yeah go for it yeah no sure thanks so much Kurt um just on the labor piece I guess I'd be remission asking are there any future construction contracts that you mentioned there that we'd be entering into that you think would surpass $200,000 I'm just thinking with the responsible contractor ordinance that we passed this might be actually the you know the first case where we'd actually use it yeah um well I mean that's interesting the screw pumps we do not expect to be the secondary clarifier project will be over 200,000 um you know I phase two is going to be I think an amendment to our existing contract I I think we can put in honestly I don't think there will be any issue with the with the rates the con those contractors will be getting to meet the municipal ordinance um I you know I haven't thought of because we haven't even gotten to contract development yet I haven't thought too much about how we'll incorporate that but I that's certainly a discussion I have with ESG um our department has actually just created some contract language related to the ordinance I actually just got an email from Coriolan our project management director here in public works that he's developed that we will have other projects this summer likely that will exceed the 200,000 level so we do anticipate using that this year thanks so much Chris um I have one I've got one other question for you which is the secondary blower that you said was a sort of an efficiency a project is that like what what is the sort of estimated ballpark cost of that is that on the like you know $10,000 range $100,000 range you know where where does that roughly fall yeah I would it's probably between one and $200,000 so we have one high efficiency blower and then we have two very old assist blowers so when there's a high demand for aeration those less efficient backup blowers have to kick on um and that's what we want to replace okay yeah just as an efficiency project I was just thinking about like what pots of money exist out there that might be available to help with efficiency related projects even though I know we're already getting everybody from from efficiency Vermont and whatnot but anyway thank you other other questions comments I don't know if you can see me and yes I do have a question and and Curt is not directly related to what we're talking about but we keep seeing news reports from other municipal waste systems of of testing the testing the contents of the waste for different strains of the coronavirus I've been curious about whether we're doing that here and if we have learned anything right so we're we're not currently doing that the state did send out a couple of months ago an option for municipalities to sign up for that sort of testing where the state would actually cover the testing costs and we applied for that I haven't heard back of whether or not that is still moving forward I believe the only community currently doing that is Burlington but I'm not 100 sure you know it does take a lot of resources to manage something like that and there's an expense for an engineer to evaluate that data the kind of expertise we don't really have in house or the capacity to take on but through the state pair program they were willing to manage all that components and we would just essentially take the sample and send it out so if that comes through we'll definitely move forward with it but it's not something we could take on ourselves without some outside assistance okay thanks anybody else have phase one questions I can't see everybody either so I think we're good go ahead okay so moving into the phase two project so as we mentioned phase two is chp which is combined heat and power so that is essentially the the export of electricity with heat recovery off of the engine and the exhaust of the generator that goes back into the heating loop ties into the methane boiler loop in order to you know maximize the efficiencies of of that energy and that heat being burned this is the overall site plan schematic so we'd be planning some new poles out along dog River Road there that's where the transformer will be located on the pole Chris and I Chris our chief operator at the wastewater plant and myself really wanted to make sure we had the capacity to expand tanks in the future if we need that which I'm sure someday the city will need expanded aeration tanks so we've really been you know trying to maximize the available future space at the plant it's a fairly small footprint so the power line will run essentially right well 10 feet off of the public works like all the barn equipment storage building do allow for those future tank expansions the other components of the project will include gas scrubbing equipment so the methane has contaminants that has water that has to be removed in order to get to a quality appropriate for use in the generator so we'll have the gas scrubbing it comes out in a like a media that is replaced I think over I think it's a four or five year period and then the generator will be a pre-packaged unit like self enclosed with its own controls which will be you know cited in this corner and this is the generator here this is where the existing flare is it will be tying into the line the methane line that goes to the flare and bringing into the generator through the gas gas scrubbing equipment and then into the generator so that's sort of the footprint of the project just to overview what we've done so far back in march city council approved a project development agreement with the sg as part of that agreement there's a 255 or $250,000 financial commitment if the project is cash positive which right now it it does it is right now in august we executed the interconnection agreement with green mountain power so that is that allowed them to essentially design all the electrical improvements that need to be done in order to accept power to the grid and there's a lot to that there's switch gears and fiber optic communications and all that electrical work that's required and that the cost of that is about 280,000 is the current estimate just for the electrical improvements in december of last year we were awarded the standard offer set aside which is through the public utility commission so the export rate the city would be paid for power is 20.7 cents per kilowatt hour we also got our air permit in december because of the project puts us over a threshold where we now be regulated under an air permit the facility never had one previously and then the the biggest hurdle to permitting is a certificate of public good which really includes a lot of other permits so sort of a full package of compliance documents that goes into that we have an attorney assist with that so so far we've spent about $25,000 just in permit fees and then the cost so last time we presented the council ESG had a project cost estimate of five million dollars which we had planned to fund through available money from the grant proceeds so we didn't well we'd use the bond money that we didn't have to use because we got the grants from USDA in the state now we're looking at a cost of six million and we're working with working with the ESG to try to negotiate that cost down to see if we can avoid a bond vote but there is a potential that we will need a bond vote in order to do the phase two project based on the last meeting with the ESG they still anticipate a cash positive project even at a six million dollar construction cost which means the revenue generated from the project would offset all the debt service and operating costs and still have some extra some profit margin and then next steps for phase two like I mentioned we're negotiating with the ESG to try to reduce the contract cost the project cost dpw finance and the planning department meant to discuss what grant opportunities there might be out there for this work finance and dpw are discussing other ways that we could fund the the gap without going to bond and then for the contract side of it we we need to um develop a new guarantee structure um so what we're talking about is merging the guarantee between our current phase one contract and the chp project because they're so related in the way tipping free revenues are are structured so there's the tip the the waste that is is best for producing methane and meets the food waste requirements is not always the most profitable from just a processing standpoint so there's going to be some work involved with building that into the contract developing that guarantee and coming to a point where it meets the phase one intent and adds on what we need for phase two mex always been a partner on this upgrade and we are in discussions with them when trying to set up a date for a workshop with them to go through everything i'm not seeing a draft contract yet so once we get that um dpw review it and then we'll go to legal review and the goal is to come back to council with a contract in april i think that's an aggressive timeline but um that's what we're shooting for we'll see how it goes and then if that does stay on track um if we do meet that um approval date then we could be starting construction as early as may of this year that is phase two update questions on that yeah so i appreciate the pushing for april for a contract one of the things that i i'm sure everybody also noted this but just thinking about the potential for another bond vote um if if we do end up meeting another bond or phase two excuse me um would that also become clear by april yeah okay and so if there is another bond vote that's needed that we don't otherwise have the sound is very interesting um the there's not otherwise another there's no planned november vote for like otherwise so would that hold up the project potentially or would you anticipate needing to do some kind of special election maybe maybe that's this is too early to tell um but yeah can you hear me yeah um yeah so we've talked about we would require a special election um you know if we the next regularly scheduled election is next march um and so it would be a year away so whatever cost escalation not only would we have another year's worth but you know they're not right now they're on site um so the idea would be to continue the work so we would want to do that as quickly as possible maybe you know take a little bit of risk on some of the design costs you know to keep it moving um in the event that the bond didn't pass but so that if it did pass we could keep going we'd have to we'd have to talk that all through we're also looking at options as kurt mentioned to proceed without a bond but i asked him to at least mention that possibility to you all tonight to get a reaction or at least you know get people thinking about it well that's that's good to know and uh just to be mentally prepared i mean obviously we had have had conversations about other bonds and potentially putting off other bonds because of just like the financial climate right now but this with it you know as a matter of urgency it seems like it could be the kind of thing that would be at least you know at least worth talking about and putting before folks if it doesn't come to and it would be you know a million dollars or less and it would be presumably paid for by rev you know the revenues anticipated revenues of the project now i think that's also a driving factor in our negotiations is at one point or our energy savings and energy you know is it not worth it to do it right now it's still cash positive at the prices so yeah so you know hopefully we'd be able to go to the voters and say look we need authorization to borrow this extra money it's not 10 another 10 million or anything it's less than a million and it's going to pay for itself yep okay thank you that that is all um really helpful uh information other questions comments go ahead and unmute yourself and jump in if you have a something you want to ask about go ahead yeah so what is the timeline exactly on the cpg what when do we think that's going to be issued months or so we're looking at i think the day date our moments is coming up within the next week or so about the double check to give you specific dates um like i said we submit it in january um i think there's a deadline so i i think i understood you but it's like you've got a Darth Vader filter on your voice right now i definitely didn't understand him he's channeling his inner Tom weights think the answer is it's uh there's one deadline in a month or in like next week and then um another in a month or two within a month or two month or two there you go any other questions all right go ahead this is really just a lot of information okay you might want to try like turning your mic on and off or something because it's really getting almost unintelligible okay i didn't mean not to say yeah just your mic or something i don't know it's something's happened it was fine earlier the office filled up with water not still about the same maybe you could try to call an option yeah that could work one thought actually is that we could potentially take just like a five minute break right now and give you a chance to to connect in a different way or you know try to resolve it and then we'll be back here in like five minutes does that sound okay yes okay all right it's 828 we're gonna take a five minute break so see you back very soon okay um so just want to start off by saying you know our core function at wastewater treatment is water quality um you know we are very focused on that um and uh you know we have a great team of operators we have very rarely ever exceed any um any of our permit limits and if we do they're very small things like a very slight amount of ph and being off from what we're expected so and we're well under our phosphorus discharge limits with you know we have been since i've been working with the plant um so they do a great job uh down there and we do take this very seriously um so just providing some um status of where we're at and and i recall uh it's councilor called we had the state come in um it's probably about a year ago uh to really talk through the the PFAS issue it's an emerging contaminant um we're all learning about it um and there's a there's quite a bit going on with regard to regulating it and really trying to figure out the best way to to deal with this issue uh so i have had some recent discussions with um the department of environmental conservation and they're projecting that a surface water discharge limit will be issued in 2024 so right now that it's regulated for drinking water but it's not regulated for wastewater plants in vermont but it will be coming um our levels right now are um around 70 parts per trillion which is the EPA drinking water standard so um our levels uh you know um but i'll just say that's that's roughly where we're at now we don't know what they'll set surface water discharge limits that but i would expect it would be somewhat higher than the drinking water standard um EPA has recently issued uh interim guidance on PFAS destruction that was issued in december i have not had a chance to go through it but um certainly can connect council with that like that is going to partially guide the state of vermont and how we um deal with this issue um coventry uh under their um they have actually two permits uh they have a solid waste certificate and a pretreatment permit uh under their solid waste certificate they are required to test for a p-pop um twice a year in main april uh actually it's not main april it should be may and october and they're um sharing that data with us so we have some sense that there's any change in trending um with regards to p-pop levels in the dj they were accepting and that report um well uh they had under their permit they were required to do a study to look at treatment options for p-pop at the landfill and um the website link i i put there has a wealth of documents um this particular report i think is 180 pages and actually the state of vermont hired their own engineer um to evaluate the report that um kasella needed to prepare under their permit um so there's just a lot of a lot of work um taking place right now as far as regulating landfills um when my discussions with the state there there may be some sort of treatment requirement added to their permit when it's renewed um i just wanted to note that as part of our current project we are not increasing any leachate receiving that is saying the same none of the work um was related to increasing our ability to treat leachate um i talked to our consultant esg about uh what they expected p-pop levels to be in the high strength organic ways um and they're very confident that the levels of p-pop um unless material will be lower than what's coming you know in the influence from the from the city of the residents um um and in discussion with the state they're right now uh in in our region um there isn't an alternative disposal for leachate so if um you know if it doesn't come to mon failure the leachate is going to go to berry or esx or even um you know to nature but but it will go to a plant very similar to my players plant and be you know dealt treated in the same general manner none of these plants uh that are available to patella to discharge leachate have the ability right now to treat uh for p-pop um and then finally just um you know we the city is very open to working with the d-e-c we've done we've participated in past studies when they um sampled not only the influence and effluent but also uh our solids they go back to the landfill um and also you know kasella is a partner with the city because they do take all the solids after they do watered from the plant um we have a good working relationship with them you know they're very forthcoming with any information they have available related to this issue um and uh you know we have regular you know discussions with them about this and and other items related to solid disposal uh as part of the project we may even be able to use you know get a reduced rate because our sludge is going to be so dry that they could use it for top cover at the landfill so just one example some of the things we discussed with them so that's really all I've got um happy to open this up to discussion great thank you um any questions or comments from council and Kurt if you wouldn't mind um stopping sharing your screen then we can see the folks have questions thank you uh so oh yeah go ahead Lauren yeah and thanks Kurt this is really helpful I think we had dug in right before the pandemic struck and then good haven't had a chance and I'm glad to be looking at this again um appreciate the update um so just a couple questions um so I just you know there's still the situation where we know we're taking in this chemical that we know is then passing through it's extremely persistent it's mobile so you know as long as we continue to do this you know we're just creating this problem that we know exists I mean as PFAS I know it was like referred to as a emerging contaminant but I think at this point it's it means the hazardous waste in Vermont like we this is kind of a well-known contaminant by many standards at this point um so I'm just like trying to figure out I mean I totally get that there aren't good options at this moment but it seems like you know either is there more that we could be doing for requiring monitoring of our effluent or the water or the soil other things it seems like if Kasella you know we're we're taking this kind of known risk bringing it in and you know even if their alternative is a word we're just going to put it somewhere else but you know could we be working with them as part of our partnership that they're going to you know at least get us better data it was a really limited data set right that did the 70 part per trillion um it was a few like seven samples or something um I just I feel like getting a better handle on like what's happening and that if I would I would love the city of Montpelier um as one of the you know off-takers of this to be pushing on um A&R to be really looking hard at the pretreatment requirements like I think they should be doing on-site pretreatment of this leachate it should not be getting sent to all over the state or to other sites like I think they should be keeping it on site at the landfill um so I just like whatever options and just curious your thoughts on you know how you know it sounds like you're in lots of these good conversations with them and like if there's ways that council could be helpful um I just think like this doesn't seem like a good long-term plan like they need to be dealing with this um I know Kasella and I will both be testifying tomorrow morning on a bill to ban PFAS from a bunch of products that will but like we're going to be dealing with this for a long time um so yeah just curious any any reactions or thoughts on like what we could be doing to get better data and or be pushing the state on the pretreatment piece um well the the data so I mean there's one the challenge to more data is you know it's a fairly good test um I think if the city wants more data likely we would have to pay for that whether whether we ask Kasella to pay for it up front and they raise their disposal rates um or whether um you know we just pay for it directly I think which is fine I you know if that's something the council is interested in we certainly can do that um uh the as far as the um indirect discharge uh you know I think I think likely that is the direction um but this is going to go the study we talked about that I mentioned here for design um alternatives uh there were they looked at both treatment on-site at the landfill and treatment at wastewater plants um the problem at wastewater plants is you know we have a limited capacity as like any plant to take only a certain amount of leakage so they would have to install multiple locations of treatment at you know several plants so um I think that's very unlikely approach so I think yeah I think that the way the state is already moving is on-site treatment um the the other issue with treatment though is as you end up with a byproduct so there's you know there's carbon filtration but then you end up with this concentrated you know block of PFOS and you have to do something with that you can try to incinerate it but then you don't know what sort of emissions are going to be created by burning this um so you know there's just a lot of and the EPA document I mentioned that has some recommendations but it's very preliminary and it just came out just a couple months ago um so you know I'm not I don't claim to be an expert on this topic but um it is something you know we're that we're really watching closely and um you know and like I said on the testing if if council um is interested in an additional data we certainly can line that up and get it in place it's just you know there'll be some vegetarian pack which is just totally fine so I guess those those are my thoughts on some of those questions for comments. Madam Mayor, I would like to get a chance. Yeah I'm gonna make a comment and then you can go there Stephen. I so uh I am interested in potential solutions for PFAS as the science emerges you know in terms of um if if incineration occurs what are the byproducts and are there ways to uh capture any harmful harmful products of that um I you know knowing that it's persistent is certainly I mean obviously it means it's limited as to what we can do uh with it but yeah I'm interested in as much as we can being a part of the solution and knowing that we are still sort of waiting for in this sense potentially waiting on science for this because my assumption is that the PFAS is not going to break down in the methane digestion process right? Uh no I I don't know how much that um that there's really a lot of PFAS in the methane it's primarily in you know the liquid and solid streams but I don't you know I haven't honestly dug into that question is is it present in the methane I couldn't say for sure um and does it come out in the in the media scrubbing the gas scrubbing equipment? No I don't know that either um I just it's fair I mean I know it's been around for a few years but in terms of treatment and science it's still a relatively new issue um and we're still learning about it and so and so is the state and so is the EPA so I don't have all the answers yeah unfortunately yeah sorry Lauren go ahead yeah yeah just on that disposal point and um so like I was on a call with some national scientists recently who were talking about like at this point their advice is basically hold on to it for a few years they're just really are no good like incinerating it you're it's usually creating some environmental justice issue it's going to some low income off in a community of color that have these incinerators and it doesn't get destroyed it just gets then like put into the air so they're not recommending um that or at least the scientists who are presenting on this call they they're looking at things like um like the way they dry like chemical weapons and stuff like there's some interesting technologies but like they're not ready yet for like widespread or their cost prohibitive um so yeah it's a huge mess that everyone nationally is dealing with and you know I I know our our team at DPW is like trying their best and working hard and it's just tough because like you know there's this you know contaminant and there are not good solutions so just like racking our brains of how we're staying as on top of it so you know appreciate the the idea is that you know to the or the advice is to hang on to it so that we hope that that will will develop a process in coming yeah so yeah so for things like the concentrated um I mean like if there's ways I think they could like treat leachate that they know how to do right now but then you get this the as Kurt was describing like the then it goes in like a carbon filter that's then like saturated with the stuff and what do you do with that then does it just go back in the landfill and keep the contamination cycle so it's it's just a mess thank you um Steven go ahead and then Donna yeah I want to just uh raise or piggyback on the alarm here I'm troubled that our city employee only refers to federal standard at 70 and as if that's okay Vermont standard is 20 parts per trillion and so we're three and a half times that uh for drinking water and people do swim in the river where this effluent ends up and so berry you know shits sharing the load across the berry uh plant water treatment doesn't solve the problem of it being our river it's getting concentrated in fish that people are eating out of Lake Champlain and I know people who have lost internal organs you know and who you know it it this is really insidious toxic super toxic stuff I mean when you talk about getting rid of the it's disrupting hormone cycles and uh you know it's it's really uh it's not something to be tolerant of and patient with it's something to like get act get eliminate out of our every at every opportunity eliminate out of our ingestion streams so it you know there's an economy and bringing leech egg down here and it's got to go somewhere but we don't have to be tolerant of continuing to propagate it into people's you know or internal organs and uh in medical bills so uh there is an engineer that I know who who worked on on the issues uh who can answer the questions about whether or not it gets into the methane and back into the air he was working on the plants uh down in uh Bennington County um and he's he's a person I mentioned who had to have some uh internal parts removed and now he feels a lot better but he's he's working with the world leaders on this issue uh the scientists so I'll put you in touch with him if you want but I guess my point is there's gotta be there may be extra room in some of these casks down at Yankee uh for this kind of block uh charcoal filters to go you know uh we need to think really outside the box to keep this stuff in the box all right I'll stop there it suits but yeah it's 20 parts per trillion is Vermont standard and uh so let's not be complacent with the 70 part federal nothing coming out of Washington in recent years is to be trusted all right thanks thank you uh go ahead Donna I was wondering what's the range of cost if we actually start doing some testing like and be able to measure after certain steps within our processes what is there and how we can't isolate it ourselves is there a way to isolate it ourselves even if we are stuck with let's say filters but if we know it's there and we know basic concentration of it at least we're starting to deal with the problem and remove it and put it in one place maybe is that possible um certainly the testing is definitely doable um I don't know the exact number and it would depend on you know which streams we're testing are we testing it coming in through the pipes leaving the plant the solid stream um and then at what frequency but you know I think the test I believe and I'm not a hundred percent sure is somewhere between somewhere near a thousand dollars well I'm sure the treatment is uh is very expensive um the the Kasella report has some preliminary estimates in it I think it range from 10 to 20 million dollars um for an on-site system I don't know exactly what that would be at the plant um what a carbon filtration system but it would be in the millions um oh wow because they get the whole liquid stream and that would just deal with the liquid stream you know the effluent that goes to the river um you know we still have PFOP and the solids that would go back to landfill that would not deal with treating life and I'm not sure how if there is a good way to do that right now just seems that if it's coming into our plants that we want to try to measure the sources of it to see which sources has the most and then to really follow through how much is coming out of our system yeah we have baseline data from the from the state study um we don't have like Lauren mentioned it's not a it's not a ton of samples um but they did sample all those and all and a very um uh various plants throughout the state they sample all of this location so we have kind of a baseline of where we're at um but we don't have a lot of data if that's something the council is interested in we can you know put some numbers together and you know come back with the proposal I mean around testing Mayor can I add one more yeah hold on a second um go ahead Lauren just one one thing that might be worth exploring I don't know if there'd be anything to it but I know some communities have started suing to recoup the costs essentially going up to the chemical manufacturers as the ultimate liable party since they knew these chemicals were toxic for decades lied about it um and so there's been some success at holding chemical companies responsible for these costs like it really shouldn't be on us and it's not causella's fault either that these chemicals are put into products and the companies who use it were misled on the safety of these chemicals um so it might be worth a conversation with the AG I know they're already in lawsuits for costs to the state from PFAS contamination going after the chemical manufacturers so we could see what the status of that is and if these kinds of costs could be recouped as part of it that seems pretty interesting to me just as a way again if we're going to end up dealing with this if we're able to somehow break it down like that's maybe that's not realistic but I keep hoping that like we'll be able to and if not that we'll be able to you know end up with a block of of PFAS let's say so that it can be isolated but if that process is in the millions of dollar range finding finding someone else to pay for it would be obviously a deal um but uh yeah go ahead Donna and then we'll go back to see you along those lines what if we add one add that to our legislative efforts because this is a statewide problem everyone's having it and as a group then going after the chemical manufacturers we you know must more muscle behind it well that's interesting yeah yeah good yeah good sorry sorry sorry Stephen we'll go to Dan and then we'll go to Stephen go ahead yeah I guess I wouldn't be uh super excited about jumping on a lawsuit on our own with a large chemical manufacturer that's um that seems like a huge risk and investment um but if there is ongoing litigation um that the AG spearheading it does make a lot of sense for us to talk with them to see the scope of their litigation because they may or may not have conceived of these damages as potential damages in which they would fashion for any type of settlement or remedy so I think it does make it does make a certain amount of sense just to make sure that the AG has this on their radar you know it it also strikes me that this is largely a problem that we can monitor but some of this some of this talk about isolating it I don't know how realistic that is Kurt do you have a sense you know to what extent how much material we're talking about with this PFAS contamination um would it would it be if we had to collect it would it quickly form a huge like mound of this material or is it relatively modest when it's collective I'm not familiar enough with the treatment process to really give you a I don't know that much about PFAS treatment um and what's generated from as a result of it but I mean the the material that that's carrying it right now I mean we we treat the material and some of this goes into the water system and some of it remains after the the treatment right is that well our plant was never built to treat PFAS um and it doesn't so you know we treat essentially everything else that's in leachate the the biological oxygen demand and the metals and everything else um but uh PFAS it's basically just goes right through or alas there's not there's no mechanism to take it out of the the liquid stream of the plant and and really like I mentioned there aren't any plants that have that in place right now in the region um so whether it comes to my player or Mary or ethics um or anywhere else in the region uh it's going to be handled the same way essentially as my players plan so I mean at the very least if we are talking about going to the AG for a remedy some type of solution that would remove it you know that would be not a cost burden to us or any community affected by it seems like one of the goals that we should be looking forward to achieve and I don't know if that's a cost goal or a technology goal that or I mean uh sorry if the hurdles are cost hurdles or technology hurdles um to that but at the very least that seems like a very tangible harm that we're encountering as a result of this um let alone any type of impact that's happening because this material is passing through because we have no way to treat it yeah and it's the same for you know the PFAS isn't just in leachate it's in you know all household waste so it's coming you know it comes down the pipes um so if if we really wanted to take all the PFAS out of um what is this charge you know you would have to put we would have to invest heavily in a treatment that's a method plant it can't just be pre-treatment at the landfill thanks madame is my turn yes yes i'm sorry steven go right ahead yeah the uh i'm concerned i know that there was litigation and there was some settlement uh between the scott administration and uh dupont or or the company that bought the the southern vermont plants uh in exchange for some warline extensions so we we need to be right on top of this and see make sure we're part of a class or party that is not already entered into a settlement which the ag may have but the governor i believe also vetoed a medical monitoring bill that was designed around measuring the PFAS levels in in people's blood streams so um people who know they've been affected by it they know they're carrying it with them uh there are people who've gone as far as having their blood drawn and filtered uh in order to try to get this stuff out um and flushed almost but it's it's monitoring the effluent that we're taking in from the landfill the leachate is not unlike a medical monitoring and that's the easiest uh in the smallest amounts of money to get without you know waving future remedies uh that's we should easily be able to get those amounts of money from the uh the generators of this stuff primarily to pontin 3m so i i i know that we can align uh dan i'll give you the name of the lawyer who's been lead on this down on the oil plant and and reach you know very large hundreds of millions of dollar settlements um which we're still not adequate but uh i think if if you're willing to devote the time to get caught up to speed uh i'll put you in touch with these folks because i worked on this a few years ago and uh but monitoring we should be doing we should not take anybody's word or take for granted that one load versus the next might be off by huge amounts uh based on what concentration of what settled into the leachate in a particular month so i don't think we should take for granted that we're only seeing the concentrations that have been randomly measured here and there so yes find maybe use some of this federal money to do the interim intensive testing uh at a thousand dollars a pop and and let's get a good baseline that we can make some informed decisions and decide how i'll make much of a priority to do this and uh dan i'll talk to you offline about who to talk to to get your uh baseline thanks thank you okay other questions or comments um just to uh come back to this question about like whether or not we want to be collecting more data um are others interested in that in having numbers and seeing some nods i know lauren you're interested i um yeah go ahead lauren well i mean one one thought obviously so the state had done that first baseline study and and it you know so they did find PFAS at every single wastewater treatment facility but it was like five parts per trillion and the ones that took leachate were like 70 as curt said so it was significantly more like you tied to the leachate but still it's concerning this everywhere but i mean it seems like the state should i think our first ask should be a dc of like they need to do an update a study and even like the places where it was found at the higher levels which was a much smaller number doing a deeper dive at what's happening at those so and i'm happy to try to push on that see if we can get any traction um you know mary had mentioned that some of this money that's coming in is for water and sewer i don't know if there's any flexibility with this um you know some things that seem really expensive like a thousand dollar test but if the state's paying for it that'd be great um but i i think dc should do a follow-up study like this is a statewide problem that they need to be also owning and getting better data so like i want i mean i would love us to you know make sure we're doing what needs to happen um and would love to see if the state's interested in the next phase as well donna well i mean solid waste district deals with this i mean the whole landfill is a big concern for them so that's somebody who we should contact for their expertise and situation there's i i heard talk about putting a filter which maybe they already do at landfills but they aren't strong enough but again they would collect them and then what do you do with it but i think we should partner with a lot of regional places that solid waste district and the regional planning commission all are talking about it the clean water basin plan that comes through the regional planning commission is talking about it so i think there are plenty of partners there to put pressure on the state uh connor go ahead yeah no i think like well this stuff anything worth doing is worth doing right and you know we could write a stern letter to the state or something but i just assumed bring them in you know i thought that was a decent conversation we had with bc last time they came in so i actually have a back and forth with them you know um otherwise we're just talking to ourselves so i'd like to see that in the future getting the thumbs up from jack awesome yeah um i'm feeling lots of different threads here um yeah go ahead dan well maybe i'll i was just feeling the same way uh it almost seems like the part of the first first two directions to go in would be to reach out to dc um on two fronts which would be to see if they're willing to update the testing or if they have that on their agenda and then at the same time ask them to come back that you know this is this has been it's been a year we sort of like an update about the p-fast situation um in that conversation and then i think the other prong would be to have a conversation with the ag's office about any current litigation involving p-fast um and maybe those are the first two steps to work on and then take this issue up you know next month with with whatever this yields yeah that makes sense to me to check in with those agencies and then come back to it with what their answers are what their their update is so that we can have a little more information to inform which what next steps we might want to pursue um does that sound i don't know that we need a motion for that but was is that relatively or how are people feeling about those two steps checking in dc checking in with the ag okay getting getting some thumbs up there um so that that makes sense to me and then we can come back to it later on is this um is that sounding doable to you kurt or um bill or whoever would be taking it on i don't think we'd be asking kurt to to get involved in the in the uh advocacy end of things he'd give us technical advice but we certainly work with him on this yes but someone projects to get finished fair enough fair enough yeah uh but someone on staff would would follow up on that bill but yes we'll just figure out who okay great okay um great thank you um and any anything else on this topic before we move on okay gosh thank you so much kurt i um am a huge fan of our wastewater uh our water resource recovery facility just in general and i think all the processes are actually quite fascinating and so this this whole thing has been really helpful and i know we've got a lot of questions and concerns about PFAS but um you know i appreciate you taking the time to give us this update and you know well we'll just see what makes sense for us moving forward so thank you again thanks for your time thanks for being here sticking around you know as covid winds down hopefully soon and the plants um projects wrap up um councils should really come down and say it's it's pretty impressive yeah i'm really excited to take the tour of the new uh of the upgrades that's going to be very exciting uh jack to get something more except for i think you're muted that was exactly what i was going to say hey that's my computer i'm hanging up you are muted all right it's working that's great i was going to say yeah i'm here to see to get the tour yeah i'm good yep yeah okay any of that's okay all right thank you again kurt and we are going to move on then to uh the temporary parklet ordinance this is our second uh reading of this i'm going to open the public hearing on uh this i'm going to do that and uh so um i think that what was attached was uh similar to what was attached to the previous time or is it i'm is it different i don't think it was different but bill i'll let you i don't know i didn't think that we had made any real major differences last time so maybe i missed that in my notes so we were what we were going to do we did talk we have a better sense of and donna i think is on hopefully uh donna and connor uh talked to a lot of people about what they might be doing so we have some sense of what is happening we in theory we could amend the ordinance a little bit to allow the right now there's very it's restricted to main street langdon and state street um there is uh a common market is interested in using that corner near elm and so you know possibly we could open that up as a possible zone that would require an amendment um we didn't hear from anyone else but i'd actually want i think you'd be more interesting for me to hear from council member case here from the public works director about their findings otherwise i think we're ready to you know to go ahead i did one i think they'll tell you this but the only message we really that i took away from the report i got from them was you know as soon as we can we're ready to go yeah sure and piggy piggybacking off that you know we we asked people like uh uh when would you like to set up your park list they were like if you give us a shovel we'll like set it up at the end of the day you know people are eager to get going um you know donna and i made the rounds i actually couldn't believe how many um business owners we got in touch with uh just doing a bit of canvassing on thursday afternoon there um and i think you know if you talk to some of the owners they were really saying like a couple cases 80 percent of our business last summer was due to those parklets um so i doubt you'll see anybody who had one last time not take one uh but in addition to that you see a whole lot of new interest um with the new uh indian apolly restaurant that set up there maybe maybe doing something on langdon street uh uncommon market had some really creative ideas oaks and evelin the new business coming in uh they were very excited about doing that and maybe sharing some uh space with huleos uh so there was a real good energy in the air as we were making the rounds there uh people were so excited about it um you know i know one issue that came up last um meeting was langdon street tavern and eliminating the parking spaces on the other side of the street from the park list um they were very clear they would love to have those parking spaces um even if it was a little tight um so i i think deep and banekin totally way in here i think dpw was going to see if that was a possibility as well uh but that would work fine so overall people are ready to get going um i didn't see any problems with the current language that needed to be changed um and i i think we'll have a pretty vibrant outdoor scene um april 15th or whenever the date is that we started letting this go so uh don i don't know if you wanted to thank you back out a bit i i can just add that um i have gone back to a couple of the vendors that we talked with um and let them know that um there is an option um just to request um in the current ordinance um if they're not on one of the three streets that's clearly identified so they can just make a request of the city manager i'm assuming it doesn't quite say that but i would think that would be appropriate um to open the parklet for them and they would have to describe what that would entail we'd have to go look at it and um you know that's what we've done with the others um last year we just helped those um businesses to make the best choice that would be two parking spots um that's already defined in the ordinance so i don't think that it really needs to change um the language in the ordinance in order to do that as long as um bill is willing to have his office be the point on those conversations well we have been in the past i don't mind that i guess as long as we're clear on our intent so section b says that the city manager's authorized tissue permits for parklets and public spaces on you know main state langdon and the manager's office authorized reserve spaces if needed for public safety then it says says parklets outside of the designated area will be considered on a case by case basis but didn't say by who so the question is you know does that mean if there's a parklet that's outside of what the manager can authorize it's got to come back to the city council for approval after there's a design so i think that's just the one area that needs clarity that would allow okay uh dan and then jack and then got along those lines i'm wondering if given the interest in on common market and did anybody reach out to the hippie chickpea on on elm street or the royal orchid um sorry they're they're closed this week dan um but they're on the list to hit up this weekend or monday when they open back up um i imagine that would be a great spot for them on elm street if they could do with that so i mean i i would certainly be comfortable expanding the parklet district to include elm street um between uh state and main i mean sorry sorry state and school um as well as school street um you know on that corner there um although well maybe not school street um but that might be a case by case kind of basis kind of thing but but i'm thinking at least elm street what school street's pretty tight it is i mean i'm thinking just outside of the uh uncommon market there there is that spot that's kind of quasi parking it's not really a parking space but everyone treats it as such um but you know i'm wondering well i mean at least so i'd be comfortable expanding this elm street between school and um state um or even if we wanted to include it all the way up to um birch grove but that's probably too far i'm i'm speculating but i'd feel comfortable with elm between school and school and state um and i'm wondering if there shouldn't be some sort of flexibility either for start dates or end dates that we had talked about before um you know given the response that you've received from people and thinking about like what the weather tomorrow is going to be like and how you know there might be people what once we get into that april where april can be a snowy april or it can be a warm april if there is any sort of sense and and i asked this question also thinking from a public works perspective if there's things you need to do on the street before we we sort of unfurl um these parklets for the summer um if it does make sense for that may first date um but to give any type of discretion in this ordinance um and i'll stop there old i have another point i think around timing i think timing for the individuals who want to cite a parklet is going very slightly um i don't think any of the people we spoke to wanted to start in advance of the first date that's in the current ordinance um and so um you know we could just help them roll out um as they needed to or want to or have the availability to i don't think many of them would vary by more than a few weeks from the start date um and i think they'd adjust their timelines um into the evening we saw that last year so as weather got warmer and better um they'd probably have slightly longer timeframe um and and um might not be the same to begin with um i think we could adapt to that um Connor i'm i didn't have this conversation with you when we were walking around so if you want to weigh in now that that sounds right though thanks yeah i think that you know the issues so a couple things one um the winter parking regulations end april first i believe so that is one possible date i think you know we'd always viewed that sort of april again it's unpredictable in terms of temperature and snow uh and it's also the chance to sort of do some clean spring sweeping and you know start for the sweep if there's parklets in places and then we can still do it it's just it's not as thorough but i mean if you wanted to move it up to april 15 right now it's still listed as may 1st so i mean you could you know that's your prerogative really i think it's just going to be there may be inconvenienced other things and obviously we have a snowstorm and we've got to be plowing to curbs and those things are in the way then that's you know that's the main risk yeah um oh hey yeah can we have an expert um let's go uh well so jack i think you were you were in line and then let's go jay and then west all right thank you um i like this i think this is great um connor and donna when you were talking to the uncommon market were they figuring that they would be doing it on elm street or were they unclear i i tell you what they would like to do jack is they've got they've got a nice deck area that a lot of people don't know they have outside on common market so if they were able to put it on you know school street it would kind of create an l there um that they could have the service coming in and out you know i think it's a little more awkward doing it on elm street um there was something with the and donna can correct me if i'm wrong uh you could only like push out the door or something on elm street and there was something with the liquor there because they're applying for a license uh that might be a deterrent for elm street so yeah they were really looking at uh school street but they were they were still kind of sussing it out a lot of people were just telling it like telling them hey you have this option to get a parklet right and they really hadn't thought of it too much before so i think we need to continue doing some outreach uh not only to the uh you know food service places uh but also maybe some retailers or want to put something out on a parking space that might be an option as well yeah i think elm street is very tricky for uncommon market because that's also where a lot of people a lot of their customers park to stop and run in and get a soda or a bag of chips or something and so they probably don't want to leave that but i'd suggest we have we have language in in the ordinance it says you know anything outside of the designated area it would be a case by case basis and you know it might make some sense not to get overly difficult but to have have them come to the council because then other neighbors can weigh in and all that um you know for because anything outside the designate area is going to be a little trickier anyway and if it's no big deal then it'll take them you know a two-week cycle to get to the next council meeting get approved and i think that's right we can jump in and advise them we can let them know if they're going to come to council to run the ideas by us and we'll look at that's what i mean we can help them prepare a proposal and then let neighbors know so they can weigh in and and otherwise the folks in the area will just do the same as last year i would the ordinance at all for that i would favor that by maybe by inserting the words by the council in that last line of subsection b after uh after considered considered by the council on a case by case yeah um j well um i guess my question is i'm not trying to stir the pot at all and i'm just really curious about what connor and don have heard and i really want to hear from what's on this um is is there value in having a conversation around a a quasi-permanent parklet versus a pop-up parklet where if whether you know a restaurant you can't just like put a bunch of tables out and serve them net you know serve folks um uh you know using using like you know your regular you know protocols but are is there an opportunity to move the the availability date up early for businesses that might want to be outside on warmer days because they think that they can bring businesses can bring business in before like of may 1st um so you know and maybe maybe that's asking too much um maybe that's asking too much of businesses but ultimately i think that it's up to them to decide can we can we open things up where for some creativity where will somebody like an uncommon market could do a quick pop-up and sell something outside you know they would apply apply and and be able to set it up earlier than the may 1st be able to do something and then take it down uh at night and then you know if there's good weather um and i'm just i ultimately i just like think that it's about connecting with the businesses and giving them the opportunity to be creative and empowering them to be able to you know reach customers as best that they see fit so i you know i understand that there's you know concerns with public works and snow and all of that but i just am trying to build in as much as much flexibility as i think is possible yeah when you get to the hearing part i'm in line okay um so um i guess so i'm trying to um boil that down into like are you suggesting maybe like changing the beginning the the starting date to something earlier like April 15th or so or um yeah that's what i was thinking but ultimately allowing the flexibility for businesses to be able to pop up and then and then shut down um you know west may say hey no we can't we can't see you know customers out there and serve food um but somebody like a common market could say like hey we just got the shipment of seafood so why don't we we have the space why don't it's 50 degrees out on April 15th why don't we go out here put it out on social media let people come and and sell something you know ultimately it's up to them i don't know i like i said i'm not trying to complicate things although probably i have um but i'm just trying to like ultimately i feel like what i want to do is empower local businesses to do what works for them because every business has their own business model and they interact with their customers in different ways so if we could you know allow some of that creativity and flexibility then i think that that could be a positive yeah um bill go ahead well i i don't think there's anything that prevents them from doing that now other than if they have a physical structure that requires movement the only issue would be what it's going to take you know to sort of be around them to protect to to you know there are standards that vitreans that for safety and so i think a business could certainly pop it out whatever they wanted to if other than the fact that it may not be that easy for them to do to meet all the other standards but there's nothing that says you know free penny wants to put it out for the weekends and then pull it in for the weeks other you know assuming it was easy to do just you know and i know theirs isn't but just you know there's nothing that prevents them from doing that it's just i think for most folks once it's out there they want it out there and using it but you're right some some may not but anyway i'll let three petty talk for themselves go ahead west i gotta unmute hi everybody um i uh just for quick clarity the proposal that you are considering right now has the may 1st start date yes yeah so i will just strongly advocate for any date i mean may 1st is fine um any date before that would be also really really fantastic um you know the nature of our parklet is you know take several hours to put together so um and we have to you know our our carpenter you know our guide does it so there's a cost to just building it so we probably with our parklet specifically wouldn't put it in for a weekend and then yank it for a weekend and do that or something but maybe that works for other peoples and you know i have nothing to say about that sounds great um but um for sure i'd like to advocate the reason i uh you know listen to kurt's whole proposal um and presentation um is because we uh we'd love to have our parklet out as soon as humanly possible um and um you know towards a little bit of what jay was saying uh at least for three penny other places have their own specifics um you know on a day like today or tomorrow it would be fantastic to just like oh it's nice out let's throw some chairs out on the sidewalk and you know obviously we have a like a dlc piece to deal with that's on us that's not on you um but if we had a blanket space from the city where we could do that um um that would be really fantastic um but just most broadly as far as parklets go we we need we need our parklet out there as soon as humanly possible um and tied in with that while you're talking about it while i have the floor um you know last year uh i think it was i don't think it was um october 26 that our parklet was removed i don't know the end date on the current proposal you're looking at um specifically being hopeful looking ahead with vaccinations and everything else like if we had our parklet out on halloween that would be really fantastic and i think that would be really fantastic for the downtown um not just our parklet but everybody i'm a huge parklet proponent i think it's just be all park like i tend to getting rid of the cars and just all parklets everywhere but you know that's not what's that's not what you're considering um but but i would like to advocate for that like i totally am sympathetic and understanding of the public works and snow removal but halloween seems like a fantastic space for us to still have it um and then on the other side you know i can't promise i and i won't commit myself for other places but like if we could put our parklet out on april 15 or even first if a foot of snow comes i will shovel all around our parklet i like our reality which i think i even mentioned this um you know some point of the summer when i was on one of these zooms um you know 50 capacity with six feet distancing we can't achieve 50 capacity with six feet distancing because of our physical space our reality and um you know kudos to both the federal government and the scott administration because we have the aid to do this we've lost a hundred thousand dollars since we took our parklet out um because we can't even i mean we we can't make it with 50 capacity but we don't even have 50 capacity so um we exist because of really tremendous aid that has come our way um but we lose 25 000 a month and um the best way to stop that until the capacity restrictions are lifted are to get outdoor seating and so the soonest you will allow us to put it out there like i said i i will shovel all around it the plow guys can go around us that's fine um but i i i just i i i urge you to consider the earliest date possible that is make sense for you yeah thank you guys wait and is it when you're clear for that just for west's so west you can use the sidewalk as long as there's five of clearance you can put seats out now or or during once the season once they set the dates so um i don't mean to interrupt you bill but we could with the date with the parklet we could then put the outdoor seating on the sidewalk that's right as long as there's a five foot space yeah but but i think even if even if you hadn't got your parklet out it was a nice day and you wanted to put seating out you can do that yeah i think that even has to do with this i think you can do that now if you want okay thank you so um and donna's uh next year i just want to weigh in on that i i know we've heard from um some of us anyway i've heard from other business owners that are like how can you you not not have the end date go out so far and just just so you know where i'm at i'm more sympathetic to having more parklets all the time like that's uh i think that would that's just where where my head is at i think would be delightful to have um parklets uh out during halloween i think that would be great um and i think there's just a question about how we deal with snow on the front end and arguably um in october as well but um but yeah i'm so i'm i'm interested in that but go ahead donna and then uh i actually i think then it's um steven and then jack uh you're muted though don thank you i'm sorry i thought you picked me when you called on donna kasey so when there's two donnas the last name was really really helpful um i actually was out and voted trying to get it to keep parklets on halloween because i think it's a great place for families to crash when they run the street so i'm with you west but i do think that if we allow that flexibility then we're back to something that came up at last discussion which is enforcement what if people do it and they aren't out there helping dpw clear the this the area so i think we have to have some muscle behind that just to make sure everybody understands what that commitment is because i do want to balance the business needs with our staff and safety so i also have a concern about you know school street is a great place i can see common market wanting that school street but that's a terrible traffic corner so it has to be done really safely and that people get used to it that it gets out there and people get used to it the weather forecast people say that the first of april is going to be really hot and that it's not so we'll see if it stays that way but it says lots of rain unfortunately lots of rain in april that sometimes will be snow we did have a discussion about public use and i didn't see any suggested language here just that public use after the the restaurant the store is closed and i would like to have something in there particularly of the parklets that are more substantial i understand that i don't want to require people who have to chain their chairs but if indeed there's a substantial parklet out there if there's a way to have public use it i think that would be good if there's someone we can reward that so i just i'll just mention this again we talked about this last time is that our base our base parklet ordinance the one that we're superseding with this temporary one you know limits the number of spaces and requires a fairly substantial constructed parklet it's good and in fact that's what vitreans and federal highway standards call for those are all being relaxed to allow these for now so many that are out now wouldn't necessarily even if we had more spaces but they would have higher construction and safety standards so so those are built in a more permanent fashion so in the underlying ordinance it does require them to be allowed to be used by the public when they're not being used for the business we did not put that in these because these are not the same kind of substantial structures and in fact in some cases it might just be someone putting chairs and jersey barriers out or something and so the idea was if they've got to chain them up or bring them in it's not the same it's not the same comparison so i think if we're you know if we're going to require well i just think it's a consideration that needs to be thought of what we're asking we're one hand we're saying right but there are two types of parklets but i don't see the language looking at that i don't see the language saying this only applies to new more temporary this applies only to those who have a more substantial so there are because basically what we've done is we've waived all the permit requirements even for the ones that existed before you know they they already built them under the old way so there there's more to them i mean i you know i suppose we could grandfather those and say those that existed before there's only two of them so would we require positive pie do make theirs by jay more the public and not anybody else you jade's the one that was at down home and that's now jay morrigan's i positive yeah positive positive under the prior yeah so right it would be those two and nobody else and they understand that i don't know because we haven't we haven't required it we didn't require it last summer i mean this is a this is your call i'm just you know i was asking for clarification that's all yes i don't know i don't know that they what whether they understand that or not because we haven't had that conversation we just took that requirement out last summer with the temporary rules my turn uh yes uh steven go ahead and then we'll go i think it's jack after that and then west i'm sorry jack you got bumps um okay so uh this is a prime opportunity to get our vacuum cleaners for the sidewalks that we couldn't afford before we can afford them under with the federal money uh we're going to have potentially this entire rest of this year maybe even next year uh dealing with this pandemic and flare ups so we should be really rethinking uh our outdoor ventilation space i'd suggest you suggest that we consider eliminating parking on the bridges uh because the bridges with some of the uh water fillable jersey barriers i don't like the concrete ones but the the water fillable orange plastic ones uh create enough of a safety barrier that those could be kind of sitting common spaces with some tables and benches inside them i think you know think about doing this as a festival like atmosphere around the city i think the mayor spoke to this that you know we've designed our city to be more livable and less traffic and more air you'll get the maximum air circulation ventilation on the bridges because of the cross current so uh we could put we could eliminate the parking spaces on rialto bridge on school street bridge on the rose lucha bridge i guess that's one anyway there's three bridges that we could do that on um i encourage you to make it clear that the when the businesses are closed you remove the obstructions from the sidewalk the steel planters in front of rabble rouser get pushed up against the building uh and that it's all public space um to the degree that the you know chain furniture can tolerate it just the idea of putting like you're on camera don't don't walk on my deck you know is is not is counterproductive to what what we're doing here um so uh i i don't think we've addressed the issue of the antique store getting uh invaded by the oversized more than two spaces uh three penny deck uh if it can move closer to the tree that's fine but so there's some ideas if if we can maintain pay somebody to go around in vacuum but the vacuum is three-wheeler electric rechargeable quiet we can keep our city really clean we're going to redefine what our future looks like so think about some publicly owned furnishing furnishings on the bridges some orange water filled jersey barriers that sit there all season um maybe some umbrellas maybe this public works can pick up the umbrellas in the evening i don't know if you're worried about theft but i i think this could be really uh a pivotal time in how we're uh using our common space uh out of necessity so but definitely don't forget the vacuums okay thank you i'll go ahead jack me yes thank you this is this is a funny thing you know you get into these things uh problems of legislative drafting and you think you've written something and said something clear and then when you look at it in another way it may not be quite as clear and what occurred to me is i've gone through this a number of times is that the uh introductory paragraph says the regular ordinance is suspended from May 1st 2021 to October 25th 2021 but i don't see anything in here that says you're allowed to have apartment a parklet from date a to date b whatever those two dates are and except for the ending date of October 25th and so somewhere what i what i would propose is that we would state a statement put a insert a statement that says a parklet may be in place no sooner than April 1st and must be removed no later than November 2nd and the reason i picked the date of November 2nd is that October 31st is a Sunday this year and so that if we want to have the opportunity to have them out on Halloween gives the businesses a couple of days after that to take them away that makes sense to me um and i i appreciate that maybe we should add that that specificity in there uh go ahead Wes um why did i want to talk um oh uh so that you know the language um non you know COVID um thing about the parklet being available for public space is interesting to me and um those of you who know me might know how much i hate to be the guy who says this um but i'm really curious about like our liability on our parklet becoming a parklet a public space um you know the reason that we chose to put signs out that say this place is being monitored by camera is because we have for our customers chose to put out fairly pricey heaters um and we're concerned it's very impractical for us to bring them in and out every day so we left them outside chained up um and so we're concerned about that we also um know from other businesses who had parklets before us that sometimes in the middle of the night when nobody's looking uh individuals choose to use parklets as um places to defecate and um that and our heater units um and our tables chained up made us feel like we should put a camera on this so that we can cover in case something happens um but all of which ties i'm a huge proponent of public spaces i'm more than glad for people to use our parklet as a public space at night i also have some uh you know like i gotta like put on a weird business owner hat and say like i have some concerns about that um from a like liability perspective as well as a like my staff showing up in the morning and cleaning up feces yeah so that feels like it's worth uh you know addressing further and it feels like it's worth um a deeper like a longer conversation and that so uh tell me what you think about this team it it's some of these things that are coming up i feel like are issues that maybe need to be addressed when we get back to what is what is our permanent um uh parklet ordinance and that some of the this is maybe not going to be resolved uh tonight and maybe not be resolved uh in time for the beginning of this season um but should be addressed when we get back to like post-covid uh times um but the things but unless unless we want to get into it tonight or before at another hearings we're kind of running out of time um and i'm i'm happy to do either that would be a thing that you know having having heard a little bit more about that i feel like i would be willing to like just put that on hold for right now um and not like leave the ordinance as it is um flag it for some further conversation but uh but it's but if we were going to pass something tonight i feel like there's uh well jack has already made a suggestion around the beginning and ending dates i'm trying to think if there's any other issues that like we need to take up tonight um and i don't i don't know but dan i saw your hand go ahead yeah i mean we're also talking about expanding the sort of footprint of the parklet to include elm street and or oh that's right that's right um but i would agree that you know this issue about do parklets constitute public or private spaces or some quasi public space that can have limitations on it i i think is a much deeper conversation for another day to to dive into because i think there are certain certain restrictions i mean this this gets into um what is our control over public streets um and because we're essentially allowing people to put um put these these parklets into public streets under our authority as managing it in conjunction with obviously e-trans um but you know it does create that question of if if it's a public street and we allow this are we creating a semi private space that an owner has a right to restrict some of the access to um you know because we do have the authority to do that as as the control but you know i think what's what's evolved over time are things like the positive pie where you know when when they close for the night people sit there um and there aren't spikes on the seat to stop people from sitting there and like west described where you know they take for preventative steps to sort of protect their investment and i think those are reasonable um and the cameras are you know certainly closed circuit cameras are all around um pointing at public spaces um so i think those are all reasonable but if we want to get into sort of that that depth of discussion i think that's for another day i think the the real question for us at least is is should we renew this park ordinance with the changes that jack proposed and you know expanding the footprint uh both of which i'm comfortable doing and uh lauren and then jack um yeah i'm comfortable moving ahead with the changes that have been suggested tonight and leaving the public space issue for another night um one question i had that came up last time but i think it's for bill so if if in this initial outreach we had kind of raised the question of how much interest would there be in this and it gives you a lot of discretion which i think is fine i'm just like is there if there ends up being you know a huge amount of interest in this do you feel like you have enough guidance for like where is that cut off like it's it's like there's there's access and public safety and some other kind of criteria you could use like is it and and we could do this another night if you think more guidance but like you know it's like the 10th person who applies you're going to be like it's just too much now and like but then how do you let them know that they've they've now hit the threshold of accessibility or whatever like do you have do you feel like you know like more or less like the yeah i mean so i think it's i actually do feel like it's it's pretty clear um you know we don't have a limit per se and i think you know this is based on the assumption that parking demand is going to be still down and we have parking lots and other places you know maybe hopefully not as dead as last summer but it won't be you know the full thriving scene that we've seen so we're we're changing parking for these kind of uses um you know it's got to be within two parking spaces of their own business it's you know we have the right to sort of say no if there's you know like someone mentioned a turn you know bad turn dangerous turn site distances you know i think we have to put public safety first so the the whole process and i think you know les can tell you from his experience and if he disagrees i'd be interested in you know someone expresses interest and we our folks go out with them and talk it over and look and say what are your issues you know what what's going to work here what isn't going to work here where's the best place for this what's and then we try to work with them to come up with a successful project and um you know some people just you know you can't some people that just won't have the space in front of them whether the streets are too narrow or whatever you know and i think even when we talked about Langdon the reason the reason we took out a lane of parking on Langdon was that we allowed the parklets to go out into the street and i think what we decided last time was we weren't going to do that this year people got a parklets on Langdon they could use the same two parking spaces as anybody else which means on the street should be able to function as a normal street and and i believe that was the conversation that was held with the Langdon street business people and they understood that more fine with that so i think i think it's okay i think changing the dates to whatever you want is great i i'd suggest you know jack had talked about the language rather than expanding the footprint that we we just live that we bring anything outside of the designated or to the council on a case-by-case basis because that allows us to really work even harder with somebody to make sure of safety and quirky things so rather than blanketly adding elm street or other streets just leave it the way it is with the opportunity for someone to propose something and we'll look how do folks feel about about that or would you prefer to just add elm from you the whole thing or just a section go ahead dan yeah i mean i i'm i'm comfortable adding elm um you know basically from school street to state street um but um you know if it if it didn't pass i think it would just make more work for us um is all it it just strikes me that the for the same reasons that a parklet works on state street or on langton street it would work on elm street um others j well i wonder um if we did expand the range is are these things that have to be council decisions could we empower bill and dana dpw to you know make assessments on what is you know appropriate and safe to be able to make a decision quicker than what could potentially up to two weeks or longer um as far as making a decision i'm with dan i'm comfortable with expanding that that stretch from elm down the state um from or on elm from school down the street but i wonder about the expediency of being able to make these decisions do they have to um specifically come to council so the thought was that for things outside of the designated zone yes because because people neighbors and other stakeholders may not you know aren't really put on notice if it's not in the regular zone that this is a potential so they might want to weigh in you know we've seen places uh cases in the past when neighboring businesses weren't happy that parklets went in and felt that they didn't get a chance to you know offer their opinions and so you know we want to make sure we're hearing from people um but however you want to handle it is fine i elm street you know we haven't vetted well elm street in terms of traffic and it is it's got a slightly different character than state and main so i you know i don't know and i don't know if we'd want it you know if you say straight from state street with that first block uh near the post office and the courthouse i mean is that really i don't know i think we want to take a look and see do we we're talking about both side you know i don't know i'd have to look where there's even parking there so uh donna beat and then jack i feel if we add elm we need to add school and then i hear bill talk and i think that we need to do a better assessment of elm and school and bring in the neighbors and that it can come before the council either our next meeting or our first meeting in april they might not get the first one but they could have it if it moves ahead then they could have a chance to have it pretty soon i also think realistically um you know who are we really talking about right we're talking about possibly two or three businesses on school none except for uncommon market right and unless you go down to the other end of school of mangs or somebody wanted to put out a park which case it's nice and wide there so you know i think the case by case might not be that big a deal um and maybe maybe we could figure out a way to expedite that or you know so that doesn't have to wait for the council but um you know it takes it takes a little bit i mean just because someone wants to do it then they've got to figure it out they've got to you know i think we could move it right along pretty quickly if i could just send in on that and mention to everyone that we did stop in every food service and restaurant that was open there are only a few that weren't and there aren't there are a number of um entities that do not want to do a parklet they were very clear they're fine with what they have and so there's only a handful connor you can jump in on this too but i think we only heard a handful of people saying that they would be interested who hadn't been um thinking about it um last summer so i don't think it's going to overwhelm um i don't think that the number of entities that will come forward will overwhelm the council or um us to have preliminary conversations with them yeah i i would guess you're probably talking about three more than last year um now some other places that might be a case by case basis is done and i didn't wander down like barry straight right i could see bohemian bakery maybe kismet one and something and that's exactly where you put that in it was those kinds of places that we were sure like further down elm street like birch grove you know maybe they would want some so i'd actually i'd be comfortable with the case by case basis language so like you you were not able to talk with um hippie chickpea or royal orchid um you know um royal like and you know like some restaurants have an advantage over others like royal orchid can put three or four tables out on a deck they've got some parking spaces on the side by the like dry cleaner you know um so they have some options but if you're talking like oaks and eveline they got no options they got to go bro so just for example none of the three more that you're talking about are in that stretch on elm street right now um but not that we know okay well so it just seems to me like as far as elm street goes maybe that's one that like perhaps staff can like look into elm street see if it makes sense and if if there's time to check in with with that crew to see if it um if there is interest in that stretch then maybe we can revisit it otherwise you know we're trying to create an opportunity where there's not a need um potentially right now um i saw a bunch of hands um i think it was jack and then dan i'll be quick a couple of things uh yeah i think elm street is a little strange because on the west side of the street on that first block there's no parking so right where royal orchid is there's no parking so it's not really doesn't seem that practical for them to do a park park with there i i like the idea of doing uh doing a case by case approval by council and to make things productive for the members of the council and the clerk i drafted language for both of these proposals and i sent it to cameron and so you all have in your inboxes the language for these two proposals of amendment awesome um make a motion jack make a motion and so i i move well do we need to close the public hearing before i make the motion um i don't know that we technically need to but i just as a matter of process anyone have further comments on this before we get to a motion well actually i so i know i know i'm sorry for being a pain in extending the conversation but i i do want to revisit one thing um the language that you had jack was about april first is that right yes um i want to be supportive of that but i do want to just talk about what happens if there's a snowstorm right that which i feel like is is likely to happen i don't necessarily want to be depending on folks uh to need to go out and shovel i think the thing i'm concerned about is snow plows are out uh i guess this is a question for donna bar lucacy um what is a reasonable expectation around um um snow plow parklet interactions i think that's the bigger concern and i'll let donna get into detail that to me that's the bigger concern than actually the shoveling out because you know west's committee is going to shovel out all the parklets in town um uh but it is you know it's night it's dark it's late and there's an obstruction in the street that didn't used to be there and a plow takes it out and um you know there's i think the possibility of that happening is not none you know it definitely could happen so i think so i think there's definitely a risk there i think we have a variety of different types of parklets so for the pre-made um larger more permanent sturdy parklets um plows can maneuver around i think the real issue is where there is you know a temporary fencing with some tables and chairs that are all linked into those and then that creates a different um challenge for the owners of those parklets and some challenge for public works um we might end up you know depending on how much snow there is we may end up um skirting around that and then requiring some hand shoveling by the owners of the those entities in order to to move the fencing clear it away and take care of it so i don't think it's the ideal situation but i think that we would typically also have some for warning that there's likely snow coming and in that regard i would suggest that anybody who has a parklet that has the movable um option move that before they close up for the evening um we get those reflective flags that stick up right that something's there yep um so just thinking about just recapping that so you're comfortable with the more sturdy structures that the plows will give them a wide berth because they're obviously there yep and understanding that there's going to be probably a gap that will be snowy in between the the road and and that uh structure i mean you could you could put in that you know if you are putting in a parklet you're that you do accept the responsibility for clearing the snow around your parklet uh and you know maybe within a couple parking spaces you know all the your parklet and the two adjoining parking spaces and if you don't do it we can always revoke your park parklet permission which is sort of a also a an understanding that we're going to leave a gap yeah but yeah so that that that it would be up to the parklet owner and that would weigh into their decision whether to push it out on april first or wait you know that mean that might be somebody doesn't feel like shoveling might say i'm just going to wait a couple more weeks because it's warmer if you if you're west and you're just like i want you know i don't mean to pick on us but because i get it you really need the business and you're like i'll do it and i get it we'll have to have people out here shoveling i'll do it but it's worth it to us to do it that's part of your calculation so i think um maybe that's the way we go right so just to be just to be clear um if the um if if a snow plow hit a car let's say right like we the snow plow would be liable for that right and i mean we we hope that that doesn't happen if the car was in a if the car was in a proper parking space in a proper parking spot the plow and it wasn't a parking being right um but i i assume sort of like something similar would be the case yeah with with a parklet right like it's on us and not to make sure to not hit it okay i i thank you for indulging me in this conversation i just wanted to make sure that we're really clear about that because especially if we move it up to april first like that these are all real possibilities um okay uh so where where are we at jack did did you uh again any other comments questions uh dan go ahead yeah i guess um you know and i don't have a i'm not necessarily wedded to the um idea of um expanding the footprint to go back to that but i i guess i would like to see um you know and it sounds i mean donna and connor have already done a lot of this but that you know other businesses that might want these parklets are encouraged to know about them um if they fall outside of the footprint that we've we've created and kept in place so you know the uncommon market or you know whatever business wants to do that knows about it can i make a proposal go back um hold on there's steven go ahead donna barla casey i i just want to i will make an effort to go back to the businesses that we were not that we didn't get to um because of timing um and i'll also i think given all these um can sort of um ideas that we've been talking about whose responsibility things are i think that i'll develop a draft sheet run by bill um for all the conditions and what the responsibilities are for the different parklets as they develop their their project um and that way they'll understand from the beginning that they have to if we have snow they have to clear and they have to do whatever they need to do to um preserve um their opportunity um okay yeah thank you um steven do you have any um final thought there i did yeah i've got a uh a suggestion a proposal this is a big enough thing and you're going to have enough stuff with the money decisions uh over the next few months to where you don't really want to have a lot of these open-ended discussions for parklet exceptions on your city council agenda i suggest that you schedule a special meeting for two hours well publicized ahead of time soon and get the papers to pick it up early and put forth the proposals of what y'all are thinking about and what the implications are it can even be one of bill's full page you know bridge things or and do your front porch form or whatever but also ask public works to price out the the orange fillable barriers the idea that if this works there's going to be so many people downtown that people are going to be waiting in line for outdoor seat tables versus if they can go grab some to go food and go sit in some of these kind of common spaces on the bridges you know at tables um we we may have a a better flow management with that so i'm i i realized it's not far enough evolved as an idea but you could price out what those costs and how useful and reusable and portable they are and you could uh invite folks to the meeting so everybody's aware of what the implications these are far-reaching implications you could sort out the liability issue if you're in a public street you're benefiting from the city immunity if you block it and don't let people use it at night maybe you lose your city immunity you know so there's enough of this stuff to merit a special meeting not a four-hour city council meeting but maybe a two-hour city council meeting and get the public to really come and weigh in you know and that will alleviate a lot that will save more than that amount of time over the next few months in exception discussion and i rate neighbors and everybody else that's that's all and don't forget the vacuum cleaners thank you okay um any any comments okay jack um i would i had started to draft language that said says what we've been talking about that the parklet owner shall be responsible for snow removal for the parklet and the two parking two adjacent parking spaces and failure to remove snow can be grounds for revocation of the parklet permit but i don't i was thinking well that makes things maybe worse for the city administration because every time someone does this uh public works are is going to be saying well you didn't get your parking spaces uh shoveled out and the owner says it was only half an inch it was gone by 11 o'clock in the morning i didn't it didn't need to be shoveled out so i think it might be better not to uh put something like that in the ordinance and so you won't be public works it will be neighboring businesses yeah yes they didn't get it done it won't be us telling them to do it it's going to be so-and-so's get a parklet and they haven't shoveled yet and people can't come to mind you know i'm losing a parking space that's who we'll deal with yeah which is worse but that's why they need to get cleaned out too okay snowstorms above two inches have to have to so let's make it as a in a permit condition when we get to issue the permit there we go so i move the two amendments that that i asked Cameron to circulate i am not actually oh never mind maybe i could get this it's from Cameron not from from you right i'm happy to read him out loud for everybody if you'd like sure let's just make it really clear what it is first insert uh paragraph b a parklet may be in place no sooner than april first and must be removed no later than november second and re-number the following paragraphs and then the second one is insert by the council after the word considered in what is now paragraph b a second okay so there's motion and a second i'm going to close the public hearing at this point um just to be clear jack this is just a motion to amend uh is that correct yes okay um so there's been a motion and a second any further discussion okay all in favor please say aye hi hi and opposed right so uh the amendment passes and so now i think we have to vote on the uh temporary ordinance itself is their motion i move we adopt the event the ordinance as amended second okay we have a motion and a second uh further discussion okay all in favor please say aye hi and opposed okay awesome thank you um and uh yeah thank you particularly west for sticking through uh through this to i i'm embarrassed to admit how much i enjoyed the legislator updating and then kurt's proposal and i i thank you that's great that's a year of covid but this is a fun night out right yes donna do we have to get a consensus on the staff following up on the snow thing we'll take care of it okay we'll let you know so i it's 10 19 here team i just want to recognize that we have not done committee assignments which is probably not super urgent but maybe i don't know donna go ahead well the list is really incomplete and then cameron sent us another one but that's the city committees that don't necessarily have all the council committees on it so i think we should do this next week none of us are dying about this we're all everybody stay on the same committee until then yeah if we if we still remember i propose we push this until next meeting that's fine with me and i don't think we need a motion about that um okay and so i think that is the end of our regular business uh right so council reports i'm gonna go in the same order unless unless folks object i could go in the reverse order which would shake everything up so far okay i'm gonna go i know i know i'm gonna go in reverse order and start with lauren is that okay mind blown um i know all i was gonna say tonight is thank you to the voters really appreciative of having the chance to serve again and thanks to there was incredible amount of volunteers and to everyone who stepped up to run for office and um just so grateful to have such an active community that we're part of um and to be back serving that's it for tonight thanks great uh jack very short thank you for the voters for coming out and voting for uh to reelect me dan and lauren and support all our budget items and uh i would have also want to observe that i thought it was great that we had uh someone come join us for our meeting steven or edward cremo come and join us and as a potential resident of the city and i i googled him and i'm gonna reach out out to him and just say hey if you want to talk about what it's like to live in the best place in vermont to live i'm sure we can uh any of us would be happy to talk to you um and he really stuck it out for a good long time i think he stuck it out all the way through the end of the uh water resource recovery facility discussion which was really pretty impressive yeah yeah i agree uh all right um dan i'll add to the others um thank you to the voters of district three for returning me for another uh tour of duty and uh thank you to the voters of montpellier for passing the um our various ballot initiatives and that we put on for the budget um and i'll note that our budget passed by 84 percent uh bill is that right that's statistic 84 percent yeah which i i think speaks to the good work that we we put in here um i'm really excited for the next coming term and um uh i'm actually going to start j and i are going to start doing uh weekend zoom meetings uh with constituents we did this during the reelection and it was really effective it completely stole it from alarm but um and so i'll credit due to her but it was so effective we're going to continue to do that so we just need to set up a sort of regular time and schedule but we're excited about doing that in lieu of um in lieu of face-to-face contact for the time being um and i guess i just end with one quick there was on election night i was driving around collecting my signs i was driving on uh pleasant street and uh it really is a very beautiful street and staring out at the city we just have a an amazing city on either side of the windowsky river um and in these these quiet nights before it starts to get back to summer and leaf out it's worth driving on a quiet street and just stepping out and looking out over the the night sky and cityscape to really appreciate the city that we live in and how lucky we are thank you yeah thank you uh jane um two quick things one is um i know you uh you probably i'll well very quickly you saw an email from matt mclean and from my wife ricarta that's some presentations around some research projects that some high school students did this past fall um if you're looking to you know kill a little bit of time um uh i encourage you to take a look at those videos there are um some really unique and creative ideas in there um around how that we as a city uh connect with and and relate to the rivers that that that are that are part of our city and so i if you haven't yet um i would encourage you to you know take a little bit of time and go through and watch those presentations because there are some great ideas um the other thing is um uh i realized that this uh with this meeting which was theoretically our organizational meeting for the council year now marks um one full year on zoom um the last time we were in chambers was this meeting a year ago um my only meeting you know dan had a few months on me because he got appointed a little bit early but my only meeting in chambers and it was from here on out that we've seen each other and connected with each other um through these screens so um uh hopefully there's a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel here we're starting to see a little bit more so i just want to make sure that while i think that there's a lot of value to this uh this allows for conversations of people to be part of conversations that will probably be part of how council runs meetings into the future um as we as vaccines are more available um and we can think about being able to be closer i know we've tried throughout the year and it hasn't really logistically worked um but i just want to make sure as we're you know as things get a little bit safer i just want to make sure that we're keeping it always thinking about how we can sort of set the tone and lead the way for um being back in person together safely um so anyway i was just realizing that that boy there you go it's been a year on zoom huh wow thank you for pointing that out i hadn't realized that and i was it is a weird milestone and gosh yeah worth noting though um thank you yeah uh connor all right a few very quick things um again thanks to the voters and it's great to have our three colleagues back here and see their faces this meeting one thing that i think it's worth mentioning is the voters were receptive to having a cannabis retail dispensary on the ballot there that was also pretty overwhelming and again i think the reason that we had to vote early was so we could become engaged in some of the conversations around this at the state level senator cummings mentioned today that we have s 94 which is pending right now had a hearing today and that very well could determine whether we have a new revenue source coming in if that's the way we ultimately decided to go and there's many community conversations i think to follow on this one so just something worth keeping an eye on i've got a couple emails about graffitian town and um you know i was doing some research into it and it's definitely not a problem that's unique to montpellier you probably ran seven days a few weeks ago uh burlington's had a huge problem with that and i think much of the stems from people being pent up like frustrated uh not a ton to do um so you know i don't think we should just be blaming angry teams or something on it but there is a possible remedy to this cameron sent around an email um to everybody so i just wanted to give a plug for her on friday march 12th three o'clock outside city hall uh there'll be folks volunteering to clean up some of this graffiti that's a great initiative the the city's taken there and would encourage folks to come out for that that'd be great um and last thing i uh we don't meet too often but i was at the uh investment committee meeting um yesterday and just a couple things first we're so grateful to have kelly murphy here she just slid right into it um she's so intelligent and the question she asks which probably makes up for me stern blankly at some of these pie charts but long story short uh you know we're doing okay considering like everything that's happened in the last year um investments are holding strong one thing i felt was interesting and i sent the mayor a note about that is we chose to divest from fossil fuels um but maple capital has actually taken fossil fuels out of just about all their portfolios there because they've just not seen the return on that and don't anticipate it being a big moneymaker in the future so uh we did the right thing there but we also did the uh smart thing financially so that's it for me uh thanks so much great thank you donna i can't believe it connor you didn't mention my ride so i get to talk about it the ridership is really doing well despite the frigid cold a slight increase and even more so they've been more shared rides so that's really good and we keep looking at more and more people downloading the app so that shows for future riders i would like to share personal experience in that we had wider water breaks here to monday evening that went through until today we finally got a safe don't have to boil our water anymore but what was amazing my condom on the second floor i took all these pictures of this incredible crew and all their noisy noisy equipment from 6 30 in the evening to 1 am i mean they were out there and it wasn't as cold as it has been but at 18 degrees or so that long it had to be cold and they had the kind of problems with equipment anybody with a vacuum at home could have their big vacuum tubes kept plugging up and you see these guys with a flashlight with their head in the hose trying to get stuff unjumped but um and they also had a crane out there lifted and maybe one of you bill probably knows the name a big concrete fixture that goes down in the hole once they had dug it all out that protects the workers when they're down in the pit and they lifted it up over all the street signs it was just way up in the air and back down and then they set it and then they did their work and then they brought it back up and put it in a trailer it was just amazing but it also made me think and i sent Donna Casey and Ann a lot of pictures i don't know bill if i send to you too probably but there were pictures that i think they should do more of that when they're working they should take pictures and put it on social media people have no idea why six guys are out there but if you watch you can see what they're doing and how they interface i think it's a missed opportunity so i'm advocating for a lot more bragging from dpw in the future when they're doing these projects it was very impressive very impressive thank you i got water yeah i like that advice more bragging we're doing great work how can we celebrate it more yeah so i guess for me i also want to add my voice to others in thanking voters for coming out to support the budget and and actually i mean to be fair all of the items i'm i'm pleased that all of the items passed and also i know i said at the beginning but i'm still very grateful for the folks who came out to to vote and and congratulations to to the folks who were just reluctant born and dan and jack it's awesome and second thing oh uh on the 24th we have the home energy information ordinance coming up i think you all received an email from me that has a link to a website for meac so it's worth spending some time just to get familiar with that to get educated about how that works what it is and the rationale behind it and we'll we'll have obviously more conversation about that next time but just want to make sure that i flag that for folks and then a third thing i just want to go on the record here as noting that since the governor has opened up vaccine opportunities to teachers i am on the schedule i'm i'm going to get my vaccine next tuesday i'm very excited about it so yeah yeah i'm i'm old enough i've got mine oh nice oh excellent nice job i don't know what kind they're gonna give me but i'm okay with whatever um whatever they want to give me i'm i'm i'm happy um so anyway hopefully get some social media posts about that so um anyway just a note there john anything from you uh do we need to sign anything there we go yeah well uh kevin kasey emailed me today apparently there's a real immediate need for something to be signed it was in the consent agenda so um that got looped around with uh with mary so i'm in sort of semi-quarantine because zane is one of the uh close contacts in the uh the high school outbreak and i've been around zane a lot so i'm uh sort of careful i'm sort of not around but until i'm sure but um yeah so there'll be that and i'll just make sure remotely that that's over there um and mary told me a reminder in mary your camera one of them said to be sure to tell you that there is something at the police station already it's already there for you to sign assuming you pass it well so are you go over there to sign that would be great well and i you know i also want to thank the voters for three more years you didn't have a lot of choice um but in a way that makes it that much better because you didn't have to bother so i appreciate that very much i want to thank um all the volunteers who came out i just each of these crazy elections over the last year i have completely misread early on and this one especially because i had no idea that so many volunteers would show up i completely all my plans were for naught they totally covered everything it was great um so you all rock only other thing i would say is as con as the discussions about the possibility of a special uh city meeting for a bond vote develop to please keep me in the loop because i actually there's a lot of ways that could roll out and i actually have some thoughts on how we might roll that out um to fit in with some other things and and to to you know maximize efficiencies but that's uh that's all i got thank you uh bill well welcome back everybody exciting for work with you all for another year um also thank the voters for their support of the budget it's always grateful after all the the work that we do um to jay's point an interesting thing on town meeting night um you know i was good out to see how the vote turned out and we actually had five city counselors and me all in the same location the effort you know somewhere there could voting somewhere there to see how they had done and it was like oh my gosh like look we can actually see one another in person was like we didn't for the press we didn't talk any business we were just so stunned that we were all in the same place in in person that we didn't quite know what to do but i was fun i hopefully we'll get back to that um for meetings soon other than that um i don't have anything else great uh all right well i think that is the end of our our business then this evening so um thanks everybody and have an excellent rest of your night and we'll see you in a couple weeks great good to see you all right we'll see you all night