 Hi everybody. Welcome to Cleveland Public Theater. I am super impressed that there's so many people here right before Snowmageddon hits and I wish you all the best in driving home safely. We do have like a couple of couches on site. My name is Raymond Bobgan. I'm the executive artistic director here at Cleveland Public Theater. I'm really honored and thrilled to have this conversation. Though I'm also a little humbled and intimidated, I'm sitting next to three awesome playwrights who I really admire. Not only as playwrights but as people. And so yeah, I hope I do good. Before we get started I wanted to say a huge thank you to HowlRound for their support and live streaming this. Also to Northwater Partners who are taking care of the technical elements here at Cleveland Public Theater and they're a great partner of ours. And also Dramatis Guild is a Dramatis Guild event. I'm a member, I imagine if not all of us, most of us are. And so it's really wonderful to be hosting this. And just a shout out to Last Hunter, our regional Dramatis Guild rep. Thank you. So what I like to do is splitting the difference between giving long introductions and saying, oh, the resumes in there, their bios in your booklet. It would be awesome for me to hear also. Maybe you can just remind us of your name and then any like I work at or what I do short. And then could you just share extremely briefly. I know none of your children are your favorites. But one project that maybe is on your mind today, not necessarily related to the discussion, or a project that just sits very special to you. Again, not necessarily about this topic that you that you have done artistically. And that might be a little window into who you are. A project of ours or a project of yours, something that is not your favorite child, but a child, not your favorite child, but a child would like to give a shout out to you today. You want to start? No. My name is Nicole Salter. I am an actress and a playwright. I work for myself. I am also a board member, a council member of the Dramatis Guild, and a board member of TCG. That's where I work for free, those two places. And there are a lot of projects dear to my heart. I feel kind of obligated to say that the one on my mind currently is for Gors, or it's called Breakout Session, because it's a piece that has pushed me artistically in a way that I haven't been pushed before, but it's also a piece about something whose conflict is deeper than I even thought that it was. And I'm trying to get it on the page, because that's the conversation that I actually want to have. Yeah. And this is the piece that National New Play Network commissioned through CPT and is about the consent decree between the Department of Justice and the City of Cleveland around our policing. Give away the whole plot. No, it doesn't. It's actually such a backdoor entry into that conversation. So that's awesome. Thank you for sharing it. Thank you. Eric. I'm Eric Kobel. I'm a playwright. I work freelance. I've had the pleasure of working with Cleveland Public and Cleveland Playhouse and a number of theaters in Cleveland and elsewhere. Yeah. What bubbled to mind, so I guess I'll offer this up, although I don't know why, when you said like a project. There's one that has been sitting with me since it's not written, so it's not. I can't pitch it and have somebody call me about it, but the script's available now. But it's one that's set with me now for a couple of decades and I have yet to be able to write it and I've circled it a couple of times and I come close to it and I backed off and then a couple of years ago, I think I finally got a handle on it, but I still have not started it and I'm not sure if that's, it's a story, it's a friend of mine's autobiography, a friend who passed away a while back, but it's his autobiography about growing up in Southern Ohio and in a coal mining town and how he, he's an artist or was an artist, a visual artist, but and a word artist. He's a poet and he, and it was about how he grew up in this incredibly violent, hard, scrabble, brutal environment of this, of this all masculine coal mining town and his only role model was his mother and how she, and she would tell him stories. She was from Hungary. She spoke almost no English and she would, and would tell him stories and tell him stories like to keep him alive and to keep her alive. And he had like nine brothers who were in the mines and would come home. Anyway, long story. But it's fascinating and I've been circling it and I, it speaks to me deeply and I think there is, but I don't, I have yet to summon the courage or the skill to do it. Sounds like it's right there. It is. It's right there, right? I can't, I can't, I'm scared to say. And now you've said it. Wow. And now I've said it in public. Hi, my name is Milt Ortiz and I am co-artistic director at Borderlands Theater. I'm also playwright and mostly freelancing right now. The project that I think is on my mind today is a play that I've been waiting to write for four years. It's been on my mind. I was scared to write it at first. It's called She, Aya, Her, Hers and it's a surrealist journey into inside this woman's mind grappling with father issues. She's trying to come to terms with her relationship with her father and how that's affected her relationship with her, with her men and she has a husband and a lover and she's trying to get her footing. That's the second time you've mentioned that project. So it seems like it's also like right at the door. Yeah, I have 11 pages. So our conversation today has to do with I think the title is something like who's story is it? But I think it really has to do with authenticity and stretching and try how do we work with compassion and inclusivity in our work? How do we represent not only the world that we know, but the world that we want our world to become? So we've had a little few conversations now about this, both individually and together. I think, Melta, maybe we can just start with you. You were talking about writing a character that you were working to write coming to as generous as possible, but also a little concern about like, how are you going to? How can you write this character? Oh, yeah, we talked about a couple examples. Yeah, you were talking about how someone, I think this is a gay male character. Yes, yes, yes. You're working on? Yes. So early on, when I was still in Berkeley, and I was part of a theater troupe, I was writing a gay character. And I, for me, what I write, it's about understanding. I want to understand something. And one of my friends who was an ensemble member was upset with me because I was writing a gay character and he was gay. And why wasn't he writing about it? And it just so happened in this project that I was a playwright. And I explained to him that I was writing about my brother who's gay. And I was, and it was basically his story that I was penning. And I think that made him more comfortable. But it was really early on in my playwriting career. And it just really shifted something for me. I really began to understand that I have to really think about why is it that I'm drawn to this? Why am I writing this? And do I have the right to write this? Right? My intentions were, were, were, you know, I needed to understand, right, this thorny relationship that my brother had with himself as a Latino gay man. And so I wanted to explore that. But was, is it really my place to do so? And, and I can't, I decided that it was in this particular case. And I did write the play and my friend was in it. And it worked out. But I always think about that when I'm writing a character, I always think about how, why am I doing this? Eric, part of the one of the seeds of this conversation was we were talking, and I was saying, what conversation do you want to see? And you said, I'd really like to hear people talk about this topic. And, and then I asked you to be one of those people. And I'm really grateful. And, but talk about where that desire came from. What are the comfort, and then you've said our community, and I think you're me, I don't know if you were talking about the playwriting community or Cleveland community, you're like, we need to start having this conversation and let not just one or two of us talking in a bar, but a bigger conversation where more voices can be heard. Can you talk about that impulse and where that was coming from? Sure. I think that, I mean, it's very, it's, it arose out of this, this very exciting time to be creating art in terms of where this question of who gets to own whose stories comes up for, at least it feels like now that there is, if we're not at a tipping point, we are inching toward that tipping point that we have not been at for a few millennia. And I think that, so first the question for me arose is like, how can you tell a story? Because I'm interested in telling stories also, I mean about learning about, I mean, you know, writing about 80-year-old women and black and white relations. And I mean, a lot of things that are not, I've not lived, I can't speak to that, but I have observed and I can ask questions and I am interested in digging into the drama of it. But so it started for me as a question of how can we address those stories? How can we tell stories that are not our own? And what steps need to be taken to make sure those are done as authentically as possible and to find out where the mistakes are made and where you need to be brave and where you need to step back. And all of that. And then I realized that the question quickly tips over into who should tell these stories? Not only who can tell them, but who should? And that's a whole other question, because if you move into them, like, you should not tell the, you should not tell that story because you're not a gay male. I should not tell a story about women because I haven't lived that life. It's a whole other question. And there's a thousand different variations of that, it feels like out there. And more and more playwrights seem to be talking about that. And it just felt like maybe it would be useful to en masse begin to talk about it, at least in a small group like this and see how that ripples out. And it's being done around the country. I mean, this is not the first time anyone's done it. But, yeah, in the Cleveland community in particular, because this is my home, I mean, this is where I was thinking, but in general, talking to playwrights around the country, I mean, it is at the forefront of which stories can you tell? Where are the boundary lines now? What's appropriate? What's not? And I certainly have no clue. I have no idea what is. I'm inching into every one of those situations. I do. I know everything. Good. Let's go. Nail it. Nail it. Please. Let me get my notebook. Yeah, you could feel free to riff off what he said. Or you could take us back because in our earlier conversation, you were like, I think we need to take ten steps back. But I don't know if you want to do that. I do. I still think we need to take ten steps back because I feel like the trepidation around this conversation of whose story is whose and who should tell the story and who has the right to tell whose story has a lot to do with the power dynamics in our nation, more so than whether or not any particular individual has the capacity and ability and platform to tell anybody's anything. I think it just becomes a part of that power narrative, a part of that hierarchy narrative, a part of that scarcity narrative that we all have as a human race and causes a lot of anxiety, not whether or not you, Eric, would write my story, but who gets to tell my story? Like, does the play about me written by Eric find a platform in an audience more than the play written by me about me finding an audience? Does the play written by Eric about me get published and distributed where the play about me that was produced didn't even get reviewed? So it's like it didn't happen. So it's not, to me, it's not so much about whether or not anybody can, I mean, I use the example in the conversation we had last night about, it's a tangent, go with me, Bruno Mars. So in the African-American community there's a brouhaha about Bruno Mars' last album which I thought was fire. It's funky. It's just everything I, that warms my heart about African-American music nostalgia. It's just like, and they're like, but he's not black. He's clearly ripping off James Brown. He's clearly ripping off Michael Jackson. He's clearly ripping off all of Aaron Hall and Guy and all the people who came before him. And I said, of course he is and he's doing it well. And if you're gonna rip it off, get it right. Do it right if you're gonna tell my story, get it right. And I will go with you. But when it's wrong, it's insulting. It's insulting because there are so many who could have done it much better. And I feel like those people who could have done it much better, then whether or not they had the opportunity to do it with whoever Bruno Mars is with, RCA or whatever big music company that has, you know, tentacles internationally, you know, have just as funky songs who don't get a chance because they haven't been approved by that power structure. It's more the conversation to me. You were just talking about getting it right. Yeah. Can you talk about Indian head? Yeah. Tell us a little bit. Tell us about, tell us about what. Such a sucker punch. No, I'm so sorry. You don't have to. You can throw it back. You can throw it. I'm so sorry. That's good. I can take it. I'm taking it. I stepped in the ring. No, I thought that. I actually felt, I thought I was throwing you like one right over the plate because you're so articulate about it. I'm sorry. But this is, this is a really beautiful play that should be, that definitely should be produced here in Cleveland. And it has to do with Native Americans being their symbols, their identity, being appropriated at best maybe, but at worst actually demeaned and diminished by sports teams. And Nicole wrote a beautiful play about it. I did write a play about it. But it was a, it was a thing that I think I felt similarly to you, Milta, when you said you had like the kind of aha moment like who like, oh, I guess maybe as a person of color. I never really stepped very far outside my culture because I've spent so much time trying to create narratives for us, bias about us that I didn't even realize that I was like, oh, I am telling. This is such a long story. So I was, I was asked to pitch for a commission in New Jersey with the NJ PAC and the New Jersey Theater Alliance had a commissioning program and Luna Stage, who's artistic director with Cheryl Katz at the time, asked me if I wanted to pitch something and I'm the kind of artist who's broke. So when you asked me to pitch I'm like, yep. Like and really it doesn't go much further than that sometimes, especially then. I was like, absolutely. Where are we pitching? Where are we pitching? And they asked me what I wanted to write about, but it had to be about New Jersey. And one of the things that struck me when I moved to New Jersey was the names of these towns and these streets. Raleway and Mawa and Parsippany and Piscataway and Pisaic. And I was like, what language is it like some Eastern European like? I didn't know what language this was, but I'm from Los Angeles where everything is like Spanish. I know where it comes from. I know exactly where the history of the land and the relation to these names and what things are called. So I just, I didn't know what these names were. And then I realized that they were Native American. And I thought, where are the Native Americans? Where are they? So I pitched, I was like, I want to write a story about New Jersey's Native Americans. And of course they were like, sure. And I was like, I didn't know how to go about it until, you know, the very kind of topical issue. I was like, oh, it's clearly, here's where they show up for me in my experience of life, you know, in these mascots. But that's the only time I see them. And often it's horrific and horrible. And I walk by them every single day. And so that's what precipitated that. So once I realized that, I was like, okay, this is going to be definitely about the indigenous peoples of New Jersey, pre-colonial America. Who were they? And then I realized they were still there. So I reached out and I started to work on the piece. And they were very skeptical of my well intended self. Very, I've never met a group of people. I mean, I'm charming. Come on. I have never met a group of people who were like, who are you? What do you want? Can I help you? I was like, yeah, well, right? Like it was just the hardest thing. And they're like, you're writing a what for who and by who and why. And no, you can't use my name. And no, you can't talk to my people. And no, you can't like, no, no, no. And it took a long time to find the way in. And as that process happened, I felt more and more pressured like, about what I was writing, what I was saying, what I was representing. Oh, how many stereotypes there were about Native people, how in me, let alone the world. And I just got paralyzed. And it was only because I got an advocate within the community who encouraged me to continue. But also checked me. And ultimately, the scripts. Evolution was a was almost like approved at every step by a small commission that I created of people from the community who read it. And let me know exactly what they thought. And I and I in and that I vowed that I would not proceed if they said no. So I said, okay, what a great story. But it's it's still hard, you know, I tried to every that's the first thing people ask, they're like, why, who, why can you, who said you could tell this story? Are you Native American? And like, well, you know, I got into it. Way back, way back, I actually do, which is what that's a whole another process actually showed me genealogically where mine was. But that's another story. But it was stories are powerful. Stories are the technology that humanity has to bring consciousness to our collective evolution. And we get to figure out why we are who we are, consider who we want to be and project ourselves consciously in the direction that we want to grow with this technology. So it becomes problematic when you say it's only for one portion of humanity, that they only get to, to think about how they want to evolve. Everyone else has to just do what they do. And that's the way stories have been used. I would say, as a black person, like against my community. And so to have the reins to tell your own story just means so much more. Because we have been fed the stories of others and seeing through the gaze of others and start to see ourselves through that gaze. It's, you know, Du Bois is double consciousness. Like I look at me through the way you look at me. I don't even know what it is to just be my authentic self. Because how you look at me determines whether or not I get to live. So stories are very, very, very important. And I feel like that's why people are like, don't tell my story. Who are you? Where's my voice? Where do I get to speak? I understand it. But that was my, that wasn't my first time on the other side of it, but that was the first time I felt stifled by it. You know, I, I write about men. I never, I never flip out. I never flip out when I'm writing. But I flipped out a little about Sarah, my, my protagonist in the story that I'm writing for this theater is a white woman. And I had a moment. I did. I had a moment. And I was like, and I just kept going. Great. That was so, well, you just took us on this amazing journey. Thank you. No, it's so beautiful. And I'm so glad we're like filming it. And I can go and like underline. So I kind of quotes, you know, and Nicole Salthers says about stories and technology. Tell my story. It'll take my story. No, I'll cite you if I quote you. Okay. And I'll send you a little chat or something. Eric, you can you can you talk about the you just fairly recently did a big show at Clayton Playhouse that dealt pretty heavily with race relations. Can can you talk about how that was for you? I mean, you were writing a number of characters that are not white. What was that like? How did you do it? And how could you feel like I'm like at the end of the day that you could respond or be responsible in that situation? Some of it was just I mean, it was sort of the after that having the moment of like of plowing ahead and giving myself permission to be really wrong. And to keep checking on that to not to not make assumption, the only assumption to make would be that I'm going to get at least some if not most of this wrong. And it dealt with black and white relations. So it wasn't I was I was really trying to focus. And for me, it was about it was about parents. It was about an elementary school in a very liberal community of integrated liberal community in which Black History Month begins to go very wrong through some teachers bad choices. And and it was so the part I felt like I understood was because I had lived in that and my kids grew up in that and I had surrounded myself with that for for years and years. So I felt that that was my way in to look at that and to look at the idea of parenting. I feel like I understand parenting in some ways, better than I understand race relations. So then layer that complication on top of it became did you see understand parenting? Wow. I got it down. My book comes out in February. It's really more of a pamphlet but it's going to be really really good. So so that was my way in. But it was also again done with the idea that then to start reading it out loud and just getting all the feedback I could get from all different communities in terms of like what is, you know, it was designed to be offensive in some ways. And it was hopefully pleasingly offensive as opposed to inadvertently. And I'm sure there's inadvertent offensive in it as well. But but it was designed to to push around a little bit and to be at a place like the Cleveland Playhouse, which is going to have a majority white audience. It was back to that who's who you're writing for? Who's who's gays? And and how brave? How I don't want to say brave. That was courageous. That Cleveland Playhouse. Yes, it was courageous. The vim to the planet. Yeah, I thought this kind of thing directly about their own community. Right. And is going to push at it. So right. And it did and would drive some people away and would and would. Yeah. Yeah. So I just kind of decided to to to blindly go in, you know, and just do it. And and again, worst case is I get it wrong and it's never produced anywhere. And that's the end of it, you know, and best case is I raise enough questions and it feels enough. It gets if not accurate, at least some of its true, and to try to like dig into it that way and to to hit enough that would be and to layers over this comedy over it. So that gives us a step back to like everyone in it was above. And in fact, one of the most useful notes I got was from an African-American player on an early draft. It was like, you got to be way more offensive with your black characters because like they were like really nice and like all the white people are really stupid. And he's like, you've got to be an equal opportunity if anything. And I was like, OK. And that and again, it was that weird little permission right from like, oh, that one black voice who said, I can do this. And we talked about that yesterday, right? There's that the danger of that. But it also did allow me then to make everybody in the play go equally crazy. And I didn't have what we had also talked about, like I don't have that burden of representing, you know, I can write about white characters that are going like, wow, that's really what you think about white people, huh? I mean, it's nobody, like nobody asked me that. I don't carry that burden. And so it allowed me, yeah, just to tread in foolheartedly. And whether it was successful or not is totally up to, I mean, whoever saw it can tell you one way or the other. But I think it was. OK, thank you. It seemed to be, people hung around for the talk back. They had a talk back after every show and people stayed. Very few people stormed down. And there was an intermission. People could have left then. Most people did. And it was, it was a very, it was an integrated audience. I mean, it was still, you know, it was a majority white for sure, for sure. But it was more integrated than many shows I have seen. And I've talked to a couple of playwrights who are just really inspired by it. Oh, OK, there. Or warned. So, Melta, one of the things that I want to ask you, we didn't talk about this before, so I hope it's not surprising. In Tathropublica, at a Cleveland, Latino group here, theater group here. And they're oftentimes looking for Spanish language scripts, which really sometimes speaks to that authenticity. And it's sometimes hard because they want scripts written by Americans like them. And most American, Latino writers are not writing in Spanish. Can you talk about like, what is that struggle? And how that plays into like ownership, how language might play into a sense of ownership both for the playwright and for the audience. Yeah. So interesting you bring this up because I just wrote a bilingual script for Portland, for Milagro Theater in Portland. Which was a huge success and was totally sold out. Yeah, it was awesome. And who knew, like, there's Latinos in Portland. I had no clue. And it has been awesome for that. And also that, you know, I hadn't realized that this particular story is actually a very American story. But this is off tangent. So I'm not even going to go into that because it's about this undocumented person that goes into foster care and then becomes a judge, right? Against all odds. And it's a Salvadoran woman. I'm Salvadoran. So I got to write Salvadoran Spanish, which is different than Mexican Spanish, which I think will hear in the Midwest and in the East Coast. It's Puerto Rican Spanish, right? Or Cuban Spanish in Miami. And then it's so regional, right? And in the Southwest, it's all Mexican. And in California, there are more people like me who come from Central America. But our Spanish is different. And somebody in the audience in the talk back was said, it's so refreshing to hear Salvadoran Spanish. And I'm like, thank you. Because the actors, some of them, they were great. They were like, these are different words. This is different Spanish. It's an accent. They have to speak in an accent. So it's more than an accent. It's more than that. It's really nuanced. Because there are different words. There's sometimes the same word, depending on what country you're in, will have different meanings. And sometimes they have like very different meanings. Yeah. Like sexual or offensive. So there's one. Hold the joke about cake, that's all. But I think it's really hard for, especially for me, I came to the United States not knowing English. And I feel most comfortable now speaking in English, the most articulate in English. And so writing Spanish for me is I can do it. But it's challenging. I definitely feel I'm a better writer in English than I am in Spanish. And I don't know if this is true for other playwrights in the US. It's true for me. I think if somebody wanted me to translate a play, it would have to cost money. I mean, it would cost a lot of money because it's work. Your mind has to think in Spanish. And you're not used to doing that anymore. So this whole bilingual thing is really challenging. For this particular play, I try to write it in a way where monolingual Spanish people can watch it and understand it. Monolingual English people can watch it and understand it. And they do because I listened for that when I was watching it. And the funny thing is that we have to explain to the audience that, like, don't worry if you hear Spanish because it will be said later at some point. You'll get the gist of it in English and same in Spanish, right? So I don't know if that answers your question. But the language thing is really complicated because most of us, even me, who was an immigrant, I feel pocha. I don't know if you know what, pocha means, but that means I'm not hatched. It means that, like, in Spanish, I don't, I'm not hatched speaking Spanish. I'm not, I don't fully speak Spanish. And I, even though that was my native language. Yeah, that's so awesome to hear and to better understand. Thank you. We're also talking about some of the frustrations that I think all of us have had in seeing different things. And I wanted to go into, like, have you ever been on the other side of the conversation? You were talking earlier about someone coming to you and saying, what are you doing writing this character? And if you've ever had to talk to a playwright or been concerned about a playwright, whose work maybe you even enjoyed or whatever, and just said, whoa, you're kind of getting this wrong and I'm not feeling it good about this. Do you want that? I mean, you don't have the sight that people would have. Yeah, of course. Can you talk about some of that frustration and how you dealt with it? Yeah, I think, you know, it's really challenging for me as a Latina playwright is that I'm expected to speak for my whole culture, like every Latino that walked the earth. And that is a really big burden to carry. And so my recent play, Sanctuary, dealt with the 1980s Sanctuary Movement on the ground railroad that took Salvadorians and Guatemalans to safety. And so I interviewed people that started the movement in Tucson. And every person I talked to commented on how the newly arrived immigrants, some of the, sometimes the men had alcohol issues, right? Issues with alcohol. And you can totally understand why that is, right? They're dealing with a lot and there's a lot of stuff, right? And they're young and so one of my characters was a young man who was grappling with alcoholism. And he was so much more than that. He was a full, you know, you could see the complexities of why he has that issue, right? In the play, you could see that. But I visited a graduate class and one of the students asked, why did you write the stereotypical character? And I said, well, I'm Salvadoran. I get to talk about my people the way that I want to talk about my people. And what I really wanted to say was like, have you met a newly arrived immigrant? Because it's a thing, it's a problem. It's something that's happened and I'm not gonna pretend that it's not happening, right? Like what I'm trying to get to is the compassion of why this person is grappling with this. Like they are not just a stereotype. There's a lot of stuff underneath that and the root cause will hopefully humanize the person, right, beyond the stereotype. And that's why I was writing it. But I felt, I feel like as a Latina, I get asked those kinds of questions, right? As a Salvadoran, I got asked that kind of, where I think, you know, Albert Albee, no one asks him why he writes about bestiality or whatever it is, you know? Bestiality in the white community, right? That's right, that's right. I mean, I'm saying that's how ridiculous that is though. I mean, I'm just one person, right? It's like my perspective. I can't help but I'm writing the play and this is what I want to unpack or. And then to hear part of maybe even your community be like, wait a second, but you don't represent them. Yeah. You're you. And me, yeah. And I'm not saying this is the end all be all. This is every person. That's amazing. Wow. It's the same, I've had the same thing. Yeah. I got that with, I have a play called Carnival, which is a play about sexual tourism. Three black guys go to Brazil for a week of pleasure. And not only from my community, like what the hell are you doing? Black men have it hard enough. Then to have you painting them as sexual predators, which I didn't think I did, but that's what they saw. But also I felt like theaters were like, this is a great play. We'll never do it. We could just see the NAACP knocking on our door, overpowering while we're using our platform to promote images of black people that are less than Martin Luther King. You know, just the pressure that everyone feels to honor the power of story, but how much story has been used to propagandize and how I think it's like, like freedom, like with freedom comes like, also like the freedom comes danger. Like you can't have the freedom without the danger. Like you can't have the full potential of the power of story and not also have like the bad stuff that people can use story for, whether intended or unintended. So do you take away the freedom? Then you also take that away, like they go together. Yeah, maybe I could ask for help. I'm an artistic director, I don't always, I'm not always the one choosing the plays, but I'm the one who's responsible for the selection of plays. And again, I don't choose them all, but I'm responsible for that. I'm the one who has to respond in the community to a board about why these things were chosen. And there are other artistic leaders here who are selecting works, if not just for themselves, for theater departments, for larger theaters. Oh, hi. And I'm wondering, give us some advice from a playwright's viewpoint about things that we might think about as we come across different things to be thinking about around authenticity and who's telling what stories. I can't help but say that sometimes when I'm in the middle of reading a script, I just, I might have this little like prick of like, wait a second, who is this person? And many times, who that person ends up looking like is very different than what I thought at the beginning. And maybe that's a good thing, maybe that's a bad thing. I don't know, but give us some advice from your perspective of how we might be thinking. I would say take risks. I know it's a scary thing to do, but I feel like, and this is going back to what you were talking, who is the play for? I feel that sometimes the plays that gets produced over and over again are the plays that are, we are comfortable presenting. Like, it's not gonna be problematic, right? It's gonna be easy to say, we're producing a play about people of color. This is awesome, but it's like, does it really do the things, what? It's so awesome? No, no, no, I'm just like, wow. But I feel like what you were saying about your play that it's a great play, but they can't produce it because the NAACP and that kind of stuff, I think that people, who's reading these plays and who are the people making the decisions of what plays get chosen? Because if there's diversity in that selection committee, then people I think will gravitate towards plays that are authentic, right, that aren't through a particular perspective for that particular audience perspective, right? Like, if you wanna attract people, all types of people to come see the plays, then I think the people that are reading the plays need to look like the people in your community, right? Like, I feel that we don't realize sometimes that we have a certain gaze that we're comfortable with and how do we look beyond that? And I think sometimes my gaze is different than somebody, you know, it's complicated, okay, okay. Okay, like, the way that I see the world is not the way that somebody who doesn't look like me sees the world, right? So why is it only the same type of people that are approving what plays get chosen for the seasons, right? And that's what I'm talking about, because this thing that unconscious bias that we have is how we're making the decisions of what is an acceptable play. And so, like, I have an example of a play that was successful, and when I saw it, something about it irked me. I just wasn't feeling it, even though I should have been. I wasn't, and I didn't know why. And then afterwards, I realized, you know, through who the writer was and what gaze was it told through, and then I was like, I sensed something about the play, and that's what it was. Something about it was inauthentic to me, personally, right? But for the broader audience, it was great because it was through that gaze that people understand and are comfortable with, but it's not necessarily my gaze. And it's about, like, sort of my story, right? And maybe I don't see my story through that gaze. I see it through my gaze, my story of my gaze. And it was my story, but through another gaze. And it's really nuanced, right? Because it seemed, it's a good play. It just didn't ring true to me, you know? And so what I'm saying is, if the literary committee or whoever is approving these seasons or reading these plays is not varied in diversity, then we're always gonna be looking through that gaze. Yeah, I think I need a new business model. I think at the end of the day, you have a bottom line, and you have people who are subscribing and people who have supported you and whose support you can predict. And it's hard to mess with that. Yeah, that's sort of the freedom that I have. Yeah. And I think about that a lot. Yeah. You don't have a subscriber base, and that my audience is like not one audience. It's like eight different audiences, at least, that all have some overlap. And it does give me this freedom. It gives you freedom. I'm sure it's also like, you know, like juggling too. Because it's... It can be, but it's also like, it also means there's a pressure on me to put things on. This community wants something here that is gonna pest this other community off just a little bit. And that's okay. And that there's some tolerance. So yeah. I don't think that there's that much tolerance, largely speaking across the board in the non-profit theater world, or even in the commercial world. I think people are like, this show with this story or the data on this show did really well. Give me another show with that data so it can also do really well. Cause at the end of the day, even the non-profit theater world, non-profit doesn't mean no profit. And it doesn't mean that we can lose money either. Yeah, so. So we have to meet these financial obligations because of the way our business is structured. So we actually can't use story the way it could benefit us more greatly. We can't use story in that way. We can't use culture in that way. We can't in any way. Cause at the end of the day, everyone who is helping to produce and maintain the production of it has to eat. So I think as long as people have to eat and you're afraid of scarcity, you're gonna have some decisions that are being made that have absolutely nothing to do with anything real, anything real. Cause I mean, we're world theater people. We're some of the most idealistic, educated, sophisticated people we know. So why doesn't our industry's selections reflect that and gotta follow the dollar? And I feel like whether it's taking a risk on a playwright who no one knows, like we're like, well, this person hasn't been approved so we can't select them. And I'm people like, I love the play. We're not producing that because such and such who just won this award is what needs to be done. Or this show that just came out of New York, that's the show. Or whatever reasons that we have for not sticking to the regional theater mission, which was to serve the community that you're in. Yeah. Yes. Everybody has a right to story, to see themselves reflected and to engage with story, to reflect on the way in which they are participating in our collective evolution. And all you're doing is feeding them wicked, which is great. Yes. That's yourself. I think everyone should see wicked. I do. I do. But at the same time, like what's happening in Cleveland, what's happening in Cincinnati, what's happening in Portland, what's happening, we're not using story. We're using story to hurt each other, not grow each other. And the other thing on that is just to pick up on that is also it's not just about all those things. Then when you go into aesthetics and you suddenly are telling a story in a way that is different or you're valuing something else on stage, but other theaters are not valuing. They're like, where is Aristotle in this? I don't see Aristotle. The things that they're caring about. Where is Aristotle? In your entire, and the theater community that's currently coming has been trained that that's what's good. And all of the reviewers obviously love it or they wouldn't be doing it. And so then you're like, if we're going to reach out. Oh my god. We haven't even talked about diversity of thought. Yeah, exactly. Let alone diversity of aesthetic. Let alone all of our identity politics. Yeah, you climbed that. That's my advice. OK. I'm about ready to open this up to questions from you all that you'd like the panelists to reflect on. But first, I want to give Eric, can you weigh in on this? I agree. No, well, that question. No, I think it's totally. It's about, yeah, I agree with what was just said. It's about the challenge of selection, of who is doing the selecting. And then of the people who are doing the selecting, I mean, what is the business model and what have we been trained through thousands of years to believe is the right way to tell a story? And then how do you overcome that if you want to tell new stories? When it's deeply ingrained, I know what a good story is. I have read it a hundred times. And this is one of them. And how do you get out of that? And how do you untrain yourself? There are so many stories that it's like those songs I play on the radio. And you end up singing them. And you're like, I don't like that song. I don't like the lyrics. I don't like anything about it. Why am I singing it? Like we've been programmed and it's hard to un-program. Right, from birth, I mean we've been, yeah. When you still have something to maintain. Like I still have to eat. Right. Yeah, this business model thing is super interesting. I mean, I just feel for those artistic directors who boards are coming to them and saying, we need more young people in this audience and we need more people of color in our audience. And then the artistic director starts programming things that play to those sensibilities. And these people are like, yeah, but our quality, our quality has gone down. These places aren't as good. And then what, I mean it's just like kind of, and I want to say it's an unfair position because they're running big theaters, but I am not going to feel too bad for them. But, but, yeah, it is. It has to do with that structure. Whistle, you know. Yeah. That's a structure. That's how it all moves from needle to thread. Yeah. That's huge. I mean, it's, we have, we haven't trained each other for generations to, to consider story as like sacred secularism. Like we say, come see this story because you need a break from work. Like come be entertained. Come relax, come escape. That's what we're doing for you. That's the way that our culture thinks about what we do. But that's not what we do. And so when they are faced with not that, they often feel gypped. Like I just gave you 65, 75, 25, 305 dollars. You better entertain me. I want, I want to, and I don't know, but the movement to reeducate people about what they come to storytelling for, I think it's gonna be hard pressed in our nation or perhaps the entire Western world or perhaps the whole world now that there is a different kind of value in it. Even though subconsciously they know the value. I mean, how many people in this room let alone the world have had an experience with the story that has left them referring to the story as though it has anything to do with their life? Everybody does. There's value in it, but they don't, we're not taught to see and appreciate that value. So audience development, how do you teach your audience that that is the value of what you're providing and that that value costs money so they should contribute and that enjoyment is not the outcome that we're all, what that we're looking for. Whether or not you've had a good time. I also think it's about options and may perhaps tolerance along with that. And I don't wanna use the word tolerance because I don't think that that's necessarily the right word, but it's like, you may not be used to seeing a story told in this way. Give it a chance, give it 20 minutes, like just go with it, you know? And I think the more the people are exposed to it, I think why it doesn't happen more often like the diversity of storytelling, right? The format of the play, I think it's because we know what's tried and true and that's gonna sell and no one's gonna come see this other way of telling a story. And I think that's the fear. And I think, I don't wanna even read it. Like the literary people are like, what is this? There's no inciting incident. Next, they won't even read it. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that there's something about modeling options as another, like it doesn't always have to be this way to be enjoyable. Like just give it a chance. And I don't even know how, that's such a good question. I don't know how you... Like they used to do at the beginning of films before like the trailers took over the way they are now before it was like, watch these other films that you didn't come to see. First, and they're like, you know, shorts. Oh, okay. There are all these shorts that you had to see that were kooky and crazy and five minutes or 10 minutes, and then your feature. That's what entry point is. That's what you're doing. That is a big part of it. If we can really drop the stakes for the viewer and say, you can walk out of here in 15 minutes if you don't like what you're seeing. And we're also gonna lower the stakes for the artist, but this is not this total thing that maybe we can start this conversation and this change of mind about what is great theater and what are the values of great theater. Or what the new narrative is gonna be. Exactly. Like we're at a breakdown point. Yeah. Those stories aren't working anymore. Could be your slogan for next year is, give us 20 minutes. Give us 20 minutes. Yeah. We'll give you... What if we had an eternity? We'll give you 20 minutes. 20 minute play, that's right. That is a good time. Walk out. Did she have the right to paint that? And I directed Middletown last year, which has a Native American dancement. Portrayed by a Caucasian. Yeah. Which was the fear, it was, there was fear. Mm-hmm. Dude, will he know how to write? So write. So are you asking for a rule book? Yes. Yes, please. Sorry, I'm parenting back. That will look, everybody, what I already know and what I love about it is I'm imagining a document that looks a lot like, and is at least as big as the consent decree between the DOJ and the City of Cleveland. Yeah. Anyone wanna talk about, not to belittle that idea, but just to, like, are there some things that just, is it just like, you know it when you see it and you're like, this doesn't feel right? Or is it like, hey, there are some clear lines, do not go here? I think it's about approach. I think it's about, I don't think as a person, as a human being, I have the right to tell another human being what they can or can't do, right? It's everybody's choice. And I think it's about how you approach it, right? Like, are you considering all the things? Are you talking to the community? Are you really listening to the way that people talk and behave and the way, you know, like I'm really into listening to patterns of speech and words and slang and that kind of stuff. But I think if you're asking questions along the way and holding yourself accountable, it's probably going in the right direction. I, it's approach. I think just because you can doesn't mean you should. What? Just because you can doesn't mean you should. And if there are people who are telling you that you are hurting them and your reason for writing it doesn't supersede the fact that they're being hurt, then stop. You know what I mean? Like, I'm saying what you're doing is hurting me and you're saying, well, I have a right to write it. You know, like, you're hurting my community. You're hurting me. Stop hurting me. And you're like, I have freedom. Well, then I'm like, fuck you and you play and your mama, you know, like, all of y'all. Because how can you, how can I, I'm telling you you're hurting me and you're saying so what? Or you'll get over it. Or it's gonna be the good kind of pain that's gonna do you good. You just wait. Like, and that's a different play. Yeah, absolutely. But at least there's a dialogue. Not like, yeah, not like I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do despite what you have expressed to me. I think there's the ideal that. But speaking specifically about the native community and now I'm not speaking for the native community, but I also know like there are certain things that are, we consider sacred. Yeah. Sacred, like our cultural dances are prayers. Yeah. Ceremony. It's like, it's a prayer. And I told, I just told you it was a prayer. And you just turned it into a chant for your football team. So it's not like you don't know. Cause ignorance is a certain thing. Like ignorant, yeah, okay. I just told you, why are you still doing it? For something you say you don't give a fuck about either. It's just, it's just football. Well, if it's just football, why you got my prayer in the middle of it? And I think there's also the expectation can't be. Oh, well you said it's hurting you. Now it's your job to educate me. And I think the big thing is a lot of times, and I definitely don't think this is where you're coming from, but this idea for dialogue can be a mask of, well now it's on you to train me. Yeah. And that's not, you know. And proof. If you're the creator and you want to be responsible, just like if you were doing a play that was a historical drama that took place 200 years ago, it's not the responsibility of the people who are dead to teach you about that period. It's your responsibility. And I think, you know, just thinking about that. Tim, and then I'll go to you next. What's in relation to the journey I've been taking that led to my piece of entry points? I wrote about a movement led by women and I'm a cisgender man. But my mom is in this movement. And I, I've been going to spend four years writing scenes and freaking out, writing scenes and really trying to get it right and be authentic and make sure I capture that voice. And then at the end of it, I was like, or at one point I was like, I can't write. I am not a woman and I feel like it's their story. And yet this entry point process for me has been like the variation of the thing that I got. I'm like, wow, you wrote this? Versus like, wow, that really resonated. And like my ex came to see it twice and they told me, you know, you should probably mention that you're on the orientation spectrum because that's the visit that was kind of the end. And I'm just like, well, yeah, I mean, that's why I left. But, you know, but for me, it's just, I, I, my, my, okay, sorry, I'm a bad one. But I feel like what's helped was to actually reach out to another playwright to get an authentic voice, to state that this person had an equal participation in this that it's not just my work to make sure I got the facts right and just to make sure that I'm representing well and just to keep open the collaboration that way. It's not just me and my view. And if anyone wants an end, like the point of the play that I wrote is not the end, the point of the play is for you to know, if you need an end for me to know, like. But also, right, you are responsible to say that it's my perspective, because I will offer it to you. Yeah. Yeah. And all you can do is center and say, yes, I did write this, yes, I can relate to it, but if you want to play about why I relate to it, then that's a different play than this. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Tim. Thanks for sharing that. Thank you for your work and that development process. How would one, or what kind of drunk vertical support do you look for in a sense where you are not infringing or trying to guide you with a story, a story that's outside of yourself, but you are able to support that development process. I don't know if I'm right. What kind of treats would you say as a dramaturg could be helpful, but also find the fact you are working outside? Eric, have you ever reached out to the dramaturg to help you when you're kind of crossing? Yeah, to some degree. Actually, I reached out to Nicole about a project a while back. It was not about, it was because of the subject, it was not about racial issues, but it was about because we met through a project about, I don't know how to describe it, every 28 hours project about police community relations in Ferguson, Missouri. And I was commissioned to write a piece about police community relations in Florida and knowing Nicole's depth of thought and her already thinking about this and wrestling with this in so many ways. Once I had written up my version, which I thought would work for the theater or I was working it for, I asked if she was willing to read, to just provide feedback that way because I tremendously respected her opinion and wanted to run it through that filter. To see again, to see like, where am I getting it wrong? What am I, through my, I totally own that I've got about 85 big blind spots on any given subject. And so, which of the most obvious of those blind spots can you point out to me? And I found that tremendously helpful and it wasn't like every script I write that I would run by her, but that one I felt like there was a connection because of our history and because of the respect that it was hugely helpful to me. And it kind of depends project to project like that for me. I have an example, it's not mine, well I sort of have one too, but Borderlands Theater is producing Virginia Grice. It was a commission through the NNPN and she's adapting Vita Montes' novel, their dogs came with them into a play. And so it deals with incarcerated women, some part of it does. And so her dramaturgs are women in the Perryville prison that she's working with near Phoenix, Arizona. So because they have the experience, they're the source. So she's, it's very innovative I believe, not to use a standard dramaturg, right? I mean she might have some of that, but she's definitely working with the women. They are the dramaturgs in developing this play. And I think the way I relate to this is I've, I've written like three plays that are based on real people and real facts. And two of them are not docket dramas, they're based on people. So I invite them into the process. They come into the first table reading and they give me feedback. And I, they're the experts, right? So, I mean that's- Yeah, interesting. I think, I'm sorry, I wanna add. Yeah. You can also, some of the best dramaturgical presence I have in my creative process comes from a person, whoever they are, who is dedicated to helping me do what I'm trying to do. Some of the worst dramaturgical help is from people who want me to do what they wanna do. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Early in every script, regardless of topic, I have a couple of readers that are just sprinkled around the country that, again, they know, they know, we have a history, they know how I write what I'm trying to go for and can say like, I, you know, they can give me the direct feedback that way and I trust them. And they're not in a position, it's important for me, they're not in a position to produce. So there's no pressure of them maybe liking it or not. It doesn't mean if they don't like it, there's no harm, no foul. I'm just gonna help me with the script. And that's content form and aesthetic. Right. Can I drill into something here about the two of you? So you sent, you sent you a script. I sent him a script. And you sent him a script. That's true. So that probably felt okay. You weren't feeling like, hey. Well, I asked if it was okay. I mean, I just. Yes, but you know what I'm saying. Like, you're not asking me to make sure that your characters are, you know, whatever. But can, do you ever get in those circumstances where you're being asked to sort of fix some white person's play to make it more accurate or more? Yes. You know, and what is that like? And how do you navigate that? That's horrible. It's horrible, it's horrible because you know the people are well intended. So you don't wanna be like, this sucks. This is stupid, drop it. No, don't do it. Because I don't feel like I have the right to do that. But clearly it's on your heart to do. You feel passionate about it and you want it to be something that has some value. But sometimes it's hard. Sometimes you don't, sometimes I feel like a token. Like you called me to blackify your work. Sometimes I feel like you ask me so that you can tell people that you asked me but you're gonna do what you're gonna do anyway. You actually didn't take any. I don't see my impact on your process. So I'm not sure why you keep telling people that I helped. Interesting. Maybe we could just have one last question. And to the women in the prison, how, hmm, so I'm thinking about power and authorship and then also, sorry, now I'm like, we're thinking. I'm thinking too, Eric, he said, well I reached out to Nicole because we had history and we've had a relationship. And like, that that feels like there's something there or how long it took for you and Nicole to build trust. Like how many doors were slammed or like maybe like creeped open a little bit. But talking about, if you are reaching out to someone to support you or to assist you or to give advice, like what is then your responsibility after you've made that task? Take the advice. Yeah. I mean, there's a simple version. And you can't, you do have to run it through your own filters and like how are they helping me tell the story I plan to tell? And then also to Nicole's point, is it, or am I going so far off base that maybe I shouldn't be telling this story? I mean, if they're giving me notes that are really not the story I want to tell, but they are coming from a place that is they are living the story I want to tell. And they're telling me I'm not telling it. I need to do some serious reevaluation, I think. But I think to Nicole's point that for me at least it is, yeah, you don't ask for the advice if you don't want to get it. If you're just looking for the stamp, that's, you may not get just that little stamp of, yes, this is person of color approved. And then what do you do with that, you know, what do you do? I want that stamp. I want that stamp. That's never a stamp. That's coming out in February. I'm gonna ask one last question and try to be brief and then I'm gonna say, I feel like I'm walking away from this conversation and something I thought about a lot. I think about it a lot. It comes into my world all the time. And I feel like they're just like new strands that I'm thinking about right now. And I'm just wondering if you have any reflections that maybe have come to you based on something someone else has said while we've been here or while we were preparing for this or any just like final thoughts that you have. Something either that's like a new way of thinking you've come to or crystallized or something you just want to share to, you know, get your final, final share. Maybe I'll just, maybe I'll just share something. Sure, final share. Sure, final share. Thank you. I think that there is something, there's that stupid thing about pornography and like I'll know it when I see it or whatever. There was that famous, famous phrase. And I think that I've kind of was coming to this conversation feeling that way of like, yeah, I've seen many times these sort of inauthentic things and then I'm like, this doesn't feel right. And then you go on Facebook and you're like, oh, that's why this doesn't feel like. And look at their Facebook friends and oh, this is a little weird. Okay, but I think that what I'm hearing also is just like, it's a lot more complicated than that. And I think that in CPT's role, like how, again, that audience development but also the development internally, I'm walking away with and also that, just that question about the business model and is there a way we can keep changing it and changing what expectations are so that we can, so that we get the honor to be in the room when the important stories are authentically been told. So, the answer to that. The honor in the room, that's a nice way to put it. That's great. I think I'm walking away with how complicated it is to unravel when money's involved at the end of the day. And also how important it is to have a non-homogenous life, which I think I have. I don't really have a lot of diversity of thought. I don't really have people truly outside of myself that I trust, which is a plug for breakout session because it's about trust, ultimately. Like, and how we can't get to a new narrative or get beyond this point, if we don't have trust for the people we would consider the other so that when they tell you how they feel that it's a genuine relationship, that you can actually take it, and that it evolves into something else as opposed to just always being basically the same thing and looking for affirmation from my point of view as opposed to the foregorse. You have to come see the play. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, yeah, I agree. It's complicated. I'm walking away with that, you know, there's no, I didn't expect any solutions today. Yeah. I know. I shouldn't have. Well, then I would have been disappointed. I'm not disappointed. The pot is stirring. I mean, and there's no end. There is no end to the stir. And I think that some of it is just enjoying, for me at least, is to settle in to enjoy the stir, but it's not gonna stop in my lifetime, nor should it. It would be horrible if it did in a lot of ways. It would be comfortable if it did, so I can be like, okay, I want that rule, but this is okay, this is not okay. But that's not true. At a fundamental level, that's not real, it's not true. And so if our goal is to make art is to get closer to the truth, we have to just embrace the stir and keep on stirring ourselves. Yeah, I think just like life, I think the more open-minded we are, the better it is and it's risky, and things will go wrong, but they will also go right. So I think that it's worth to be open and, you know, because sometimes I wanna be, you know, who owns a story, I wanna say, like, we own our own story, you know, we do, we own our own story, but I'm also, if there is somebody who is authentically wanting to tell my story, I'm open to listening to it. I think it's about the approach. And it's also, you know, the scarcity thing, right, that only like so many of these people of color stories can be told, why can't it be people of color telling those stories? There's only gonna be like one people of color play in the season, right? So that scarcity thing is, I think, what makes everybody all like, who's telling the story and why? And like, you know, if that wasn't the case, I think it would be less problematic. I don't know, but I think I'm walking away a little bit the same, I think, but also more open to other possibilities of sharing stories. That's great, what a great note to end on. Thank you so much. I think 10 minutes, 10 minutes? 15 minutes, we're gonna start the next conversation. I'm really excited about it, so I hope y'all stay and see you.