 Security report says over 3,000 persons have been abducted and 654 million Naira ran some paid between 2021 and 2022. Terrorists have attacked southern Kaduna community again 24 hours after residents conducted a mass burial. Tonight, in continuation of our Town Hall series and countdown to the 2023 elections, we take a look at the worsening security situation, even as Nigerians call for speedy justice for the late lawyer Omar Balani Rahim who was shot dead on Christmas Day by a police officer in Lagos. This is Plus Politics, I am Mary Anacom. Between 2021 and 2022 alone, no fewer than 3,420 persons have been abducted across Nigeria, with 564 others killed in violence associated with abductions. Terrorists on Friday also launched a fresh attack in Malagom Kagoro in Kauraloko government area of Kaduna state 24 hours after a mass burial of victims killed in previous terrorist attacks. According to sources in the community, the terrorist arrived fully armed and began shooting, forcing people to flee for the allies. Now recently, we have had an incident of the killing of a Lagos lawyer, Mrs. Balani Rahim, by a police officer in the state. Rahim was hit by a bullet fired by a police officer attached to the Ajiwe police station in Ajah, Jambi Vandy, an assistant superintendent of police on Christmas Day. It is no hidden fact that incidences of kidnapping and banditry and police brutality have become more brazen under the Bahari administration from abducting a military officer from a military facility to attacking an airport, derailing a train, and kidnapping passengers. The safety of the average Nigerian cannot be assured. While joining us to discuss this is Reverend Joseph Hayab, he is the chairman, Christian Association of Nigeria Kaduna State. We are also being joined by Dennis Amakri, former assistant director of the DSS, and Senator Iruagbo, he is the editor-in-chief, global sentinel, and he is also a security analyst. Thank you so much gentlemen for joining us on this conversation, and Merry Christmas. Thank you. Great. I'm going to start with Reverend Hayab because of you know the recent attacks again in Kaduna State which seems to not be going away anytime soon. Reverend Hayab, Nigeria has been ranked as sixth terrorism in most impacted country you know this year, and as we can see Nigeria is leading countries like Syria and Somalia, and these are countries who have been actively at war. And here in your state which supposedly would not be necessarily seen as a very Islamic state, we're seeing more and more of these killings along the lines of religion and ethnicity. Why has the situation in Kaduna State continuously lingered? It interests you to know that the situation in Kaduna, the truth is that it's even under reported because you are just talking about the killings in Malagon, Kauraloka government of Kaduna State that happened some days ago. But I can tell you that on the 25th of December, just on Christmas night, another person was killed in a village by name Amfani Umoru. One Maradona Samuel was badly injured and over 18 people were kidnapped on that Christmas day in Kaduna, local government of Kaduna State. On the 26th of April, these treaded kidnappers came and took away 42 persons not nine of them were women in one community called Umbuan Park in Karsuama, the new world. So you can see that killings, attack, kidnappings, and all form of insecurity is still going on. The reason why we are just tired of coming every day to the media to sing this song, to continue to explain this, yesterday morning precisely I was in Zonkua and I was in Kaburo, I was in Kapantan because I have to go. I went to Southern Kaduna to commit suicide with many of the families that were actually affected and the stories are not good stories at all. Do you know that the very night we buried, we had that mass burial, on that night this killer made him again and to show you that they can take everybody, they will even go beyond what you think they will go. So when you are asking about the state of Nigeria, it is just to tell you that things have continued to deteriorate, there is no control, insecurity have reached the worst level it should not be in this country. Either because there is a failure in government to deal with this matter decisively, or we are playing politics with a very sensitive matter, the rating may not even be a concern of this government because before you know what is happening, a live movement will come, address the press and even accuse some people of asking this rate or to have rate in Nigeria as higher in kidneys than Syria and Somalia. So that is the problem we have in Nigeria, those even in church don't even feel any concern about what is happening. They give it a different name, they try to turn their face to the story and so the enemies of this country will continue to perpetuate evil because they know that no one is going to come after them. I am most curious about the fact that I mean of course a lot of people make the excuse that the governor of the state is just the chief security officer on paper and not necessarily by action or being able to command the service chiefs in the state. But if something of this nature happened on Christmas day and the same night, something of the same nature was able to happen, it makes me wonder what security agencies in Kaduna state are especially for a place that's gradually become a hotbed for some of these killings and you know abductions. I'm curious because I want to know where are security agencies in your state and what's the situation, what is the police commissioners saying and other security agencies that are supposed to be on ground to help fight this killers off? These questions should go to the commissioner of police, the state, not me. My rule simply is as a faith leader, my people call me every night and every hour when they are in crisis, when they are in individual situations like this and tell me and they will write a vivid report. I can because it's not here, it's not a place for me to begin to, I can tell you with the names of people kidnapped, the names of people injured, the names of people died and the timing. I have all those ones on record because I can't have a network that goes beyond just a state chapter. We have chapters in the local government, we have chapters in the I think we're having a connection issue there with you. Okay let me come to you, Mr. Macri, of course you are retired but you obviously are still a security consultant. I feel like every time we have these conversations we're just talking about the same thing again and again and again and there seems to be no end in sight. It looks like we're going round and round in circles and maybe the answers are staring us right in the face and we're not necessarily doing what we need to do because I'm trying, this is my question, why do we have to keep doing this time and time again even when there seems to be some solution, there are ideas that people like you put out there. What do you think the challenge is with this issue of insecurity especially for a case like southern Kaduna? Okay thank you very much for having me and you see this problem keeps on persisting because we have not seriously decided to solve it. You have people dying every day, you have governors doing a double speak about when people are killed, the government political statements, when it favors them they are ready to give all kinds of military solutions, intelligence solutions, you know, when it doesn't favor them they tell you that they are not the CESOs, they are just CESOs of paper and stuff like that because when you look at it, these governors actually have the security apparatus under them. It's not the commander, it's just the chairman of the security council where he should be able to direct people to do certain things, you know, and when your old people keep on dying and you make political statements it shows that you are not really serious about what is going on. But I think we've experienced a lot of things this year, very, very nasty situations and as we move into the next year optimistically maybe we will think that, you know, new things will happen. Senator, you have continuously reported on issues of insecurity across the country, especially in the northern part of the country. I mean terrorism continues to be on the rise and when I talk about terrorism I'm not just talking about banditry or Boko Haram, I'm talking about terrorism in its entirety, crime and criminality seems to be on the rise despite the fact that the Nigerian government had budgeted 11.18 trillion Naira from 2015 to 2022 to fight this menace and terrorism, if I might add, is one of the major wings on which this government rode into power and we're here almost at the end of 2022 still deliberating on what needs to be done and I'm wondering from your experience in the field what exactly do you think the challenge is? From my perspective I think the challenges first starts from the top. They say we practice executive presidency and if you remove the titles all over the world, if you remove the titles, I think Nigerian presidency, the power inherent in Nigerian presidency makes it one of the most powerful in the world, in fact almost close to a dictator. Now to whom much is given, much is expected. That's how the country is built, is the commander-in-chief of, the president and commander-in-chief of the armed forces. So when a president is not leading from the front or taking direct charge, it becomes a problem. I think half of these issues stem from them. Most times we are always talking about body language. Most times what we get from there is that sometimes he is nonchalant about some of these issues and it's a shame actually because this presidency has one of the most, the most goodwill out of many presidents we have ever had. It had so much goodwill when the president took over. Then over time this frittered away and it continues up to now. Believe me, anytime this president is interested in an issue, you will see that it will be done. Is this not the same country that security and intelligence agencies go up to a place like Kenya and took somebody of interest and brought the person back to Nigeria to face charges, go to Benna Republic, bring the person to face charges, you know. Because why? The president is interested in such issue. And this kind of operation is something that is top like CIA, Mossad, but they put it off. So what I'm saying is that the president should take charge. It's in this country we are about almost 1,000 people were killed in Agathe. For almost two weeks, Nigerians were crying. President says something, speak, address these people, at least assuage their plight. No comment, no statement. After so much pressure, then a female stationer issued a press statement. At the same time this was after there was a bombing in Brussels, Belgium. We had few people, about 90 people were killed by terrorists. Immediately, in less than 24 hours, presence issued a statement commiserating with the people of Belgium. It's the same country where flood, flood, submerged almost one third of Bahia's estate. Submerged almost one fourth of a number. Submerged almost one fifth of Gogi. Across the country all over from Jigawa to Niger. No statement from. In fact, failure coming, we are in communication. Then there was this Halloween stampede or firebreak in Korea. We are about 100 people. Immediately. So what I'm saying is, if a station gets back from the head, then that's where they stop. And take note that most of these operations is a commander control structure. If they are not sure, if the military or security agencies don't have a defined directive, there's little or nothing they can do because it creates a situation of uncertainty. And that's what you're seeing in the North West and across the country, except not East. Where there is a defined operation going on in North East, where there is theater command, where we know that the sphere of operation is where defined. Their mandate are defined. And that's where you are gradually getting results. We are not yet there. But apart from that, across the country, be it in Kaduna, be it in Kasina, be it even in the South East, there's no defined operation. Most times it depends, if you are the presence, okay, of giving command to the military. If you give command, how do you follow it up? If something goes wrong, would you hold responsible? Did you fuck anybody? Is in this country that President confess he's told IG to go to Benway State and he didn't know that IG didn't go? That was it. He didn't do anything. In fact, that IG stayed and tried to even defy the Constitution to stay beyond the constitutional date. He's supposed to retire. So, Senator, you're saying all of these things, you say that our President, I want to be sure, that you're saying that Mr. President does not seem to be in charge. I want to first lay a foundation from there, because if we're going to solve other things, like the issue of the non-kinetic areas, like having the political will start from there, having, because some of these issues we are talking about will not stop by guns and bullets. They have to be political solutions, like restructuring a political architecture, like our policing system is over centralized. But if we have to take action, we have to start from the top. President has initiated and approved National Assembly and State House of Assembly and Governors and we have to start from there. You have to mobilize because enormous power and influence is in that office. If it's not trusted in doing anything, I bet you other things, other sectors, other hands may try, but it is still for sure. So, the emphasis, why I'm laying emphasis there is because there's enormous power and influence from there. He's not going to do it alone, but he has to initiate it. He has to pull it up. That's what I'm saying. So, there are other areas of decentralizing our policing structure, having cognitive policing, effective early warning response system, having a national dialogue to know how we can live in peace, because some of these problems are actually politically inclined. If we solve it, then we solve almost 60 to 70 percent, but it has to come from the top. The initiatives, someone has to lead to get these things to be done and it has to start from the top. Let me come back to you, Reverend Hyatt, because the Christian Association is not just an association of Christians. You obviously also represent Christians and you speak along those lines, you liaise with governments and security agencies. So, picking up from where Senator left up. Senator is saying that there seems to be a lack of leadership push on Mr. President's part. He's saying he's not doing his job, he's body language for the want of a better way to describe it. So, I'm not sure that he's interested in fighting insecurity, but it baffles me. For a president who fought so hard to be president in this country so many times, the fourth time finally he was able to get his way and then this is what we get. It beats me. Why has it taken so long for the president to deal with this issue of insecurity? And he talked about politicizing it. Do you see any form of politicization when it comes to dealing with insecurity across the different zones in the country? The truth is that the reason why we've not been able to tackle insecurity is the conservation of insecurity. Apart from, you see, I like using Kaduna State for instance. In Kaduna State, most time our governor will come out to the media and say things that are not just to divert attention. Do you remember that on the eve of one election in this country, this governor came out just to divert attention and claimed that certain ethnic groups have been killed and even have a number? A few weeks after, the commissioner of police denied that he did not even know about the number. So these are the kind of things. And I can't agree with what the senator said. They only react and respond to issues that interest them. But how can you show on how to defend and protect lives and properties of citizens of the United States and their matter, their issue do not consign you. You don't care whether, you know, where we buried, the Masberia we had last week, there was no government presence. Nobody from Kaduna State government attended that Masberia. I think those people are nobody. And so if they don't care about that, how would they care about the number of people I've just mentioned that were kidnapped on the 25th of December that were kidnapped on 26th and who knows what has happened between yesterday 27th to today 28th. So these are the kind of situations we have. We have leaders who don't care about us. We have leaders who don't think about our welfare. We have leaders who come on the other face if they hear that there's a problem on our side. But they will come out to the media and say things. I was surprised the other day when I saw that one of the presidential aspirant candidate throw the issue of insecurity to my governor to answer when he went to check himself. And I could not just believe myself. He's the man who has not been able to address his insecurity problem in the state and is answering for us. But these are the kind of leadership we get in Nigeria. And we can't just blame them without blaming ourselves. It's only in this country that we think that the man we have elected as governor, the man we have elected as president, the man we have elected as senator, the man we have elected as house of rep or house of assembly is the one in charge of us. Incidentally, we are supposed to remind them that we gave them their appointment later. They are there because we have given them the mandate. They are not there to support us or to be the ones to decide what we do and what we don't do. They are there to do what we have sent them to go and do. But they don't care. That's why, whether we are kin, whether we are slaughtered, they don't even care. If they are going to make statements, they will make statements that will further aggravate this situation. Today, Kaduna is seriously divided along religious and along other lines. Why? Because even those in power that are supposed to govern our support or that are supposed to unite the people so that we work together to fish out criminals and even deliberately divide in us. I shared in one of the media yesterday that, look, Kaduna state has ever experienced a nine-year without conflict. Although sometimes, don't think that it has been complicated. Everybody knows from November 22, 2002, there was an effort to ensure that there was no more crisis in Kaduna. And we had a nine-year period of silence. What exactly did we do to achieve those successes? What exactly did we do to be sure that there were no other violence, no killing, and all the criminal things we are talking about today? This government is not willing to even reverse and take a look at what we did right or hear us talking about those successes. As far as she's concerned, she knows what to do, and sadly, she's doing nothing. Mr. Macri, he's talking about the fact that there seems to be no political will whatsoever. And then once in a while, the endurance point fingers our security agents and say, oh, well, security agents are not doing their jobs. They only are the whims and caprices of whoever is in power, whether it be the governor, whether it be the president. But let's talk about these men, these gallant fellows who are in the front lines, especially our soldiers, who have somewhat been stretched thin dealing with the issue of terrorism and insecurity across the country, whether it be in the southeast, whether it be in southern Kaduna, or even in the fringes of the northeast of Nigeria. Let's talk about their welfare. Let's talk about the idea of making sure that they're mentally prepared for what they're dealing with. And again, talking about political will, how well kit these men are for the fight that they're fighting because this is not a normal war. It's a guerrilla warfare. It's nothing close to them going to peace keep in Sierra Leone or in Liberia. Do we consider amongst all of the politic king the welfare of these men? Thank you very much for that question. Yeah, addressing the issue of political will, you know, many people will say, oh, the president does not have the political will. His body language is not telling us much about, you know, what we're doing and stuff like that. But we forget that that political will belongs to the people. I think that I will rephrase that to say that Nigerians don't have the political will, just like Rehan has said, you know, we are the ones who voted them there. And of course, as long as they are there, they are supposed to do what we ask them. Because we are not practicing a dictatorship, we are practicing a democracy. But how many Nigerians know that they have a role to play? Because, you know, during elections that there's the office of the citizen of the federal republic, but how many of us because you see every time I talk to people, they say, oh, they have the soldiers, they have the police, they're powerful, they're more powerful than us if we talk, they will kill us. So how many people have that understanding? I am very happy you raised that issue. You know, in Nigeria today, I can conservatively say that about 70% of Nigerians are illiterates, illiterate in the sense of not having political education. Many people don't know. Go to the market, go to the road, and ask people about politics. What is democracy? Many people don't know. They will tell you that they don't know what is going on. All they know is that there is a P.C., there is PDP, and there is Labour Party coming, and you know, and that's why even the politicians go ahead and use this, you know, ignorance of the public in campaigning and telling them whatever they like, because if we are in an educated environment, people will start asking questions and say, hey, you told us this before, now this is happening, and you are coming back again to talk to us, aside it, and they should answer. You know, the American president put it succinctly. Thomas Jefferson, he said democracy itself cannot be effective if majority of the populace are not educated. So here, the market woman, even the way to vote, they don't know how to vote. So what are we? How do we now tell them about intricate policies about security or legislation and other kinds of things? It becomes a very big problem. And that's why I'm saying that Nigerian politicians should spend a lot of their time, a lot of their time in political education, because people don't know what is going on. Let's talk financing of our security forces. I recently talked about funding of the police, and it took me back to the essence of the NSAS protest. It was not just protest against police brutality, but it was also protest against the bad welfare or the short end of the stick that police officers were getting, the poor enumeration. But of course we saw what happened. Again, how can a person police well if the circumstances in which he finds himself is not even calmly? How can a person be fighting for a country that does not necessarily care for its family? And then there's their monies that have been voted to the army, to special forces, to the police. And these monies somewhat, someway, find their ways into the pockets of some persons who are at the top. And then leaves these other people in a state of comatose. Hence, they're unable to do their jobs as they should. Why are we yet to address these issues? We have members of the National Assembly who just talk about these issues once in a while, but there is, again, no follow-through, and I'm wondering, where do we as people come in to make sure that these things are addressed so we can have the kind of security and policing that we deserve? It boils down again to security education. It boils down to that. Because when you look at it, even the security agencies are doing that. They're not independent. Remember that. Because the security sector itself needs a very serious reform. It has to be reformed. Because in other countries, the security sector itself is governed in a way that they are effective. They know what they are supposed to do that relates to the national interest. And then, of course, they operate under the rule of law. Now we're talking about the policeman that goes around to, you know, maybe was drunk or smoked something, shooting an innocent citizen. Why? What is that going on? Because they believe the police system has not changed much. Right from colonial days, they were originally set up. The House of Constabulary here in Lagos was set up to take care of colonialists. And what the colonialists left after independence were politicians, Nigerian politicians. And then, of course, the politicians started using them as to protect themselves against the populace. So what are we really talking about? Are we running a system that is democratic, that takes care of everybody, or we are protecting the regime in power? You know, so you have to feel very sorry for the security agencies. They are not constitutionally. They are not independent. You know, they are not independent. And if that sector is reformed, reformed, you know, where we have good governance in the security sector, then, of course, they will be independent enough to carry out the job that they are trying to do, you know, no matter who is God. Remember in the United States, they have to go into Donald Trump's house and search him. Because when he left the office, he took official documents away. That cannot happen here because you cannot go, who is going to give you the order? So the institutions have to be independent, strong, before we can call it, you know, unactive democracy. Well, we're still talking about this place. Yes, quickly, before we go on a break. Yeah, because we don't even understand that many people who work in the different security outfit of Nigeria actually didn't go there because they have action for the security of Nigeria. They just went in there because they lack job and they need somewhere to get food. Have you seen so many young men who were recruited or who were employed or engaged into SSS? Their desire every day is to be with one politician and you see every day there's trouble to be with one politician to open his gate to block people from shaking hands with him. And then who are those ones that are supposed to go out there to gather intelligence and know that there's crime that is about to be committed. There's an evil that is about to be done. It's something with the police and even soldiers that you expect, since some sense of basically, I'm sorry, I am a son and a product of a military man. I grew up in the past, but I'm just ashamed when I go out and see how those who have been recruited or engaged by the Nigerians to start in the security outfit, they are designed to protect one individual, not about the citizens, not about the country. Look, they will even be lobbying people. Please, can you get me to be with one senator or get me to be with one big man there? Is that the reason why you joined the security force? That's why you cannot have proper understanding of their job. Well, they may not have proper understanding of their job because their desire is, let me just be somewhere close to someone who has money and get money and that's all. We'll take a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about security reporting and my next question will go to Senator Irwin who obviously is in the field. Are we reporting properly or could we also be part of the problem? We're still talking security and plus politics. Stay with us.