 Good morning my lovely viewers and welcome to Realtalk. I am your host Yvonne Yaga. So gender-based violence is an ongoing conversation, but today we will be looking at it from a different light. So a couple of years back a woman was stripped naked in the streets of Nairobi for being indecently dressed and on that light today we are going to be talking about measures that we can take to curb gender-based violence in the transport sector. You can be part of this conversation by sending in your comments, questions or telling us where you're watching us from on each circuit across all our social media platforms. You can also talk to me directly on my social media platforms at Yvne1 on Instagram and Twitter and Yvlin Yaga on Facebook. Sorry for that. So my guest today is, goes by the name Naomi Maora. She is the founder of Lawn Initiative that champions for rights or for women who work in the transport sector. Welcome. Thank you. How are you feeling today? Good. A bit early for me on a Saturday morning. But so glad to be here. Yeah, we are lucky to have you too. Thank you. Yes. So kindly tell us what you do. So I run a non-profit for the past six years. We work in the Matatu industry, working with Matatu circles and we train them on customer service and we sensitize them on sexual harassment and help them develop a sexual harassment policy and we also look at the internal structures, internal HR structures, looking at their recruitment, their promotion policies in order to get more women into the workplace. Yeah. And we also have our women in transport program, which Saito Naitam Super Anganya, where we work with women in the Matatu industry to help attract more women into the industry, retain the ones that are existing and help them move up the career ladder. Yes. I believe that any initiative that supports that, all the people, if you look at the history of most initiatives, works, people who have founded so many things, they have a backstory. There's something that pushed them to that direction. So what pushed you to that direction? So I grew up in a family that ran Matatu's and so I think unconsciously I didn't realize that I was actually very fascinated by Matatu's. Really? Yes. And so it was run by my uncles. Right. And for me, it was just like any other job. Yeah. Right. My uncles are like my father's to me. Actually, they are my father's and it was only later when when I started going to university that I realized there's a perception people have about Matatu people. That is not what I grew up with. Right. Just like any other daughter that sees their father as their heroes, that's what I saw. People who turned out to be Matatu drivers and conductors, they were my heroes. People who paid my school fees and people who took me to hospital. And so I realized there's a problem in the industry that people see the Matatu industry as chaotic. Something that, like a necessary evil and who could get rid of it all at once, we would. But my perception is that it's a misunderstood and neglected industry. Right. So for example, if somebody has never gone to computer class, right, and you give them a laptop and you tell them type this hundred and note. Right. What will happen? They won't be able to type the note. Yes. They'll either, you know, mess up the keys of your laptop. Maybe they'll open the laptop and open like a million and one tabs. Yeah. Right. Or they'll go to a cybercafe and say, Hey, can you type this out for me? Mm-hmm. And I like for five hundred and twelve, double it for two hundred and twelve. Right. Yeah. And then so you come back and you tell, and you ask the person, so where's my typed work. Right. And you realize they've not done a good job. Right. And you get mad at them. Right. And that's what we do with Matatu people. We don't offer them any training on this work. Right. On average, just talking about a small Matatu, the 14-seater one. Right. So it will carry about, let's say, 14 people. Right. Make about five round trips. Yes. So in other words, a Matatu crew is serving about 120 people in a day. Yeah. With no customer service training. True. Right. Yeah. When you're to a member and their owner is later at 5K at the end of the day. How do you do it? I don't care. That's up to you. Yeah. Right. And then we get very shocked when, when, you know, they don't have customer service skills. Right. They're driving recklessly. They were just given a vehicle that was... Yeah. They're talking goodly to the passengers. Yeah. Five thousand per day. Yeah. And so that's our work to just professionalize the industry. Yeah. Okay. So talking about women in the industry and gender-based violence, what have you experienced that personally? Yes, I did. So there was, again, I was in the university. I was going home. And I was at my hometown. And I wanted to go see my grandmother. And I just, I lighted the Matatu and I had my earphones on. And somebody just grabbed me. How old were you? I think I was about, I was about 22. Yeah. Okay. And somebody grabbed me. And I turned back. And this is angry man. Right. I did psychology. So I'm very into non-verbal communication. Yeah. So I could tell like the clenched fists, the face. I was like, Oh Lord, I'm in trouble. I don't know what I did, but I'm in trouble. And so being in my hometown, the first thing I did was like, okay, I think I'm about to get beaten up. And I called out to one of my uncles. I was like, Uncle Mara, you know. And I think he realized, Oh, I think this chick knows somebody at this bus stop. And so he ran away. Why was he angry? So there was a lady behind me and she caught up with me because I started now looking for my uncles. And she's like, he was trying to say hi to you. And I was like, I didn't hear. And if I did, and I didn't respond, that should not be the reaction. Right. So I found my uncle and Uncle Mara and I passed him. And there's this guy and he asked me, okay, describe the guy. And he said, okay, he's one of the street boys that hangs around the bus stop. And I was a bit shook. And then I got to my grandmother's place and I asked Shoshu, I'm like, Shoshu, what do you think of my dressing? And she was like, No, you're fine. And my Shoshu had raiders. Like she could sense a small scar from like a mile away. And I think after that, I didn't remember about the incident until I saw a video clip of a lady being stripped. So was the clip before your incident happened or after? It was after. It was about two years later. So two years later, I see this clip of a lady being stripped in Nyeri. I remember it was in May 2013. And it was in that, like watching that video clip, I had imagined what would have happened to me on that bus stop. But it was nothing compared to what I had imagined. Right. At no point in my mind did I think like somebody would do that to strip me if I hadn't called out Uncle's name. And so we had conversation with my girlfriends at that time. And one thing that we all agreed on is that there's an issue in public transport in terms of harassment and violence. But we didn't have data to back it up. No research was being done on the issue. And after like months of talking, we're like, with me, I'm like, yeah, there's something in me that we need to do something about it. And that's how we started the initiative. So when you saw that clip in Nyeri, had you seen the other one that happened in Nairobi? So the one in Nairobi hadn't happened yet, because that happened 2014. So it was actually what happened is we started our initiative formally registered it in 2013 after that incident. And then we were really struggling to tell people what's the issue. They're like, ah, we don't think it's that bad. So it was only after the three video clips in Nairobi and my choice that people are like, OK, now we see what you've been talking about. Is this what you've been talking about? It's been going on for years and it's unfortunate that three women had to go through it, had the incident. And those are the only ones that we know. I think every woman from day to day goes through that. Someone says hi to you, then you don't say hi back and then they're angry, they start insulting you. And so I think those three incidences in Nairobi and my choice were a really tipping point for our work. People started saying, OK, we see what you're doing, what do you want to do to solve this issue? So having grown up in a family that works in the Matatu transport sector, what are some of the myths that people have when it comes to the transport sector? What are some of them? Some of the myths. Oh, myths. Oh my good Lord. They are uncouth, they are perpetrators of our lives, I want a life. It's not a way to make a living. Yes, that it's not a job, that they don't have families, that they are in poverty. And being at the end of that, they had really long working hours. So they would leave home at around 5 or coming in at around 11 p.m. Every day is a working day, a holiday is a Sunday. So seeing them struggle through that on the other side, I really appreciated the sacrifices they took to feed the family. I do not take it for granted that I went to the University of Matatu. And I remember like they used to come for visiting with the Matatu. And like every family I would take was Matatu. You were in the Matatu. So I think growing up with them, for me it's just any other job. And I did see it provide. And I really do understand the struggle of it. And for me it's to say that I am a product of Matatu. It's like 110%. There's nothing else I would rather do with my life. And to create another different perception about Matatu people. There are people just like you who show up to the studio. There are people just like me who show up in an office and work in an unprofit. There are people who are just trying to feed their family. And there are families out there who are praying for their family members to come back home. Because I remember one incident, my uncle was a carjacked. And the police were informed about it. And unfortunately they didn't know that the Matatu carjackers had put him in the boot. And so the police started shooting at the carjackers. And unfortunately he got shot. So you can imagine we were at home. Matatu has been carjacked. We start praying. We don't know where they are. We have no information. So it took like the whole day nobody is sleeping at home. And finally getting news like okay, he's fine but he's been shot. And I remember going to the hospital with my grandmother. And my grandmother had forgotten to wear her shoes. So in the hospital we were like okay, it's too late to go to Bata get sandals. So somebody had to go home and get her shoes and find out that he had been shot. He had to go for surgery. And we were outside and we were just praying that he would sit out. We don't know if the Matatu will ever be back on the road. And so it's just like any other job. And there are families out there that are dependent. That's their livelihood. Okay, I believe your uncle is well now. Yes, he was just shot in the leg. And it's very interesting because he decided to save. The Matatu was shot at the back. So he decided to save that. So it's still in the Matatu back in those days. It was still there. And he kind of had a graffiti artwork on it like I survived. But he's fine. So other than championing for comfortable working spaces for women in transport. What other objectives did you have in mind when you started Flown Initiative? Again, even going back to my personal experience that the Matatu industry was something the men in the family did. And so we realized there were very few women in the industry. And that's how we decided to start the Super Anganya Program. And so just bringing the women together because what would happen is that there's maybe one circle with two women. There's another circle with two other women. So your circle is just working as drivers. The women working as drivers, touts. So we did a research on that just to inform our programming and to create awareness on the status of women in the Matatu industry. Ninety-five percent of them are conductors. Really? Yes, which is one of the lowest paying jobs in the industry. And it's also very determined by the driver. The driver is a big conductor. So sometimes you'll find that the women, as we say in the industry, are waiting for a driver to pick you up to be his conductor. And that's why we work with circles to formalize that process of recruitment. Because sometimes drivers are like, hey, by the way, you need to give me a bit of something. Yes, so that you can become my conductor. A job... How do I say this in a nice way? Well, there's no way of saying this in a nice way, is that they want sexual favor in return for a job. And so if you don't agree, but there are good drivers who are like, I see you just like us trying to make a living, as my conductor. Alright, nice, that's interesting. So what are maybe the measures that you take to make sure that women are comfortable in that environment? Not only the women who are working in that industry, commuters as well. So we've done a couple of advocacy campaigns. So we've worked with various artists. So we've worked with an illustrator to have posters in Matatu's. You'll see, I think somebody even sent me one from Matatu in Kitangela. Their posters just creating awareness about, for example, how to sit in a Matatu. You'll find like sometimes men will just be sitting and they're just taking the whole seat. It's so annoying. Or the way to do this is a bump and then they use the bump to like, so we have advocacy tools in terms of posters that talk about those issues. Talking about how, for example, women are afraid to travel at night, or get into a Matatu, especially after dark, that has only male commuters. So when we do our customer service training to the circles and Matatu workers, things we sensitize them on. What are women's safety concerns when it comes to Matatu? And how can you handle that? What are women's travel needs? Because you'll find a woman who can handbag, who can shopping. Maybe even a kid. And maybe it's even one kid, two kids. And you're trying to get into a Matatu that's moving. So we say, okay, so here's the lady, how do you help her? You need to take her luggage, put it in. Take the kids, make sure they are seated and now the lady gets in. See, I'm trying to get into a Matatu, even before we can go to the shop. And she's wondering, should I hold on to the shopping, should I hold on to the first point, to the second point where I hold on to myself? And so we have those trainings with the circles, as I mentioned, customer service and the adoption of sexual harassment policies, both in the workplace and also to handle commuters grievances on harassment. For example, you've been harassed in a Matatu. Where do you report? Where do you report? The circle? Yes, so you're supposed to report to the circle. What if the circle does nothing about it? So that's what we work on. We work on them to have a pipeline on how to report. For example, we advocate for fair charts. So when you get into a Matatu, if you don't pay, you don't get the right, this is the amount of money you pay. And it's written down. Yes, it's written down. If it's pick ours, you know how much you're supposed to pay. And in that sticker, there should be a place where you report. And there should be someone dedicated to that phone line. And there should be a book you have with grievances, like saying on this day, we received this complaint. This is the person who complained. This is the person assigned to that complaint. And deadlines for that. For example, let's say something in Mekwapenia stage, the person who would be assigned to that is a stage manager. Because I know exactly who it is. Kamagera Alikuharas, who is on stage. Or is he the conductor? Or is he the driver? Was it inside? Was it a fellow commuter? And so we work with them, like with these books, to now follow up with them. Like what did you do about these kids who was assigned? What did they do? Did you follow up with the commuter? Could you kindly share your social media pages before we go on? Oh yes. So on Twitter, we are at Flon Initiative, F-L-O-N-E initiative. On Facebook, same thing. Flon Initiative, F-L-O-N-E initiative. And on Instagram, same. Same thing, yes. And you've talked about some of the programs that you have. You've been talking about Msu-Pawanganya. I didn't know it was a program. I actually just saw the short film trailer. Talk about that in the programs, other programs and projects that you have. So we've been doing the Msu-Pawanganya program for about two years now. So we have about 60 women. And when we started out, we started with 14 women. And through a lot of mouths, we've grown. So that shows the demand that there is out there. So our women are from Nairobi County and the surrounding. So we've got a lot of Kiambu, Mweki, a bit of Kitengela. Yes, that's as far as we've gotten. And so what we did in the beginning is just bring them together. As I mentioned, they are a bit scattered in all circles. So we have monthly meetings where they come together. And then we have capacity building workshops. So we've had workshops, for example, on parenting because most of them are parents. And as I mentioned, they're long working hours. Prevent them or put them at a very interesting situation where they are not with their families and with their kids as much as they would want to be. Especially for a mother from five to ten. That's crazy hours. And we've also worked with them on fast-age training like what happens when you're in an accident but it's your matter too. Can you do something where the ambulance is coming? And how do you even reach ambulances? So we had a training with St. John's on that. We've also had a training with entire management. So Garikari Bika, what do you do? Do you depend on the driver? But we are like, no, you are escapable. And this is how you do it. We've had an incident where a lady attended the tire maintenance course and she got arrested. And the police said it's because your tire, it was a safety concern because uncle make enough pressure. And she was able to go and say, no, no, no, this is how you check for pressure on a day. This is what you do. And she says the policeman was so shocked that he was like, okay, fine, just go. And so she called us. She's like, oh my God, it worked. And she talks freely about it. So we've been doing some capacity-building trainings just to, because our mission as I said is to attract, retain and advance. So we've been doing a lot of retaining because the turnover of women in the Matatu industry is quite high. And given the work environment, it completely makes sense. So we've been working on the retaining. And right now our next step is working on advancing them. So we've been working on trying to work with driving schools to get more women to be drivers and to find a way to put them into driving positions. Yeah. Okay. So just like I asked before, the Super Wanganya movie trailer, why did you, is it a flown initiative project or did you have other people come together to do that project? So one of the concerns for the ladies is that, again, the stereotypes that people have about them, right? So that most of the violence against women working in the Matatu industry is actually from fellow commuters. Yes. And so they were saying, okay, we need to find a way to put a human face to our work. They need to know us beyond our work. And so we've done a couple of public awareness campaigns. So we've done a play called Mamawama III, Atalions. And we now, with this Super Wanganya project, we work with Maumau Art Collective. So it was a group of artists that came together, met our women. They had about three content creation workshops, which I have to say I was really impressed because we had, we had budgeted for one, but the artists were like, no, we want to be able to really represent the women and the challenges they are going through and what they are trying to tell the public. So they, out of their own good will, met the ladies. They would come for the monthly meetings and they were like, na dania jai, ae jai, kwa jai. Ape vi script, does it make sense? Should we change it? And so I think that's why Super Wanganya has been so amazing and powerful is because they really took time to understand the women. It's so captivating. I actually felt it. I can't imagine someone going through that. There was a lot of work that the artists put into working with the women and telling them what their vision is and making sure it's as realistic as they want it to be. And so for Super Wanganya short film, it's about a driver and a conductor, woman driver and conductor and talking about and taking us through a day in their lives. Like the driver, the husband left after she started doing Matatu Wang. The son is angry at her because she's like, if it wasn't for you, my dad would be here. And even because she's a Muslim. So even the people in the mosque come and tell her, hey, this is not a job for women in our religion. And so we see her struggling to help the kids understand that this is a job. And it's like any other job. Please don't believe the public what they say about us. I'm just trying to make sure you go to school, you have food on the table. And then there's the conductor and her father is against her working in the Matatu industry. She's like, that's not a job. You can't call that a job. It's even worse for conductor. For lady conductor. And then her mom gets sick and they are unable to pay for rent and pay for the medicine. But through her work, she's able to support the entire family through that hardship. And then we have the commuter who gets into the Matatu and gets harassed and then the conversation in the Matatu about it. Because they're like, and having that conversation play out in the Matatu as it would in real life and as the women working in the transport industry have seen it play out. And get into a point where the women were the ones who saved the commuter and they had a conversation with a man about what they're about to do and got the police involved. So I think it's been quite powerful because it's stories from the women about their work and it gives us a new light into their lives that we've not thought about or seen before. And it's actually what is happening. So I want us to wind up but before we do so when Flon Initiative started and around that time when My Dress, My Choice campaign started there were still those people who believed that it's not the women's fault and I know that there were people who were against that campaign. So right now, especially men, do you have partners who are working with you that are mostly majority men or how is the support right now compared to that time? Yes, so back in My Dress, My Choice which I was involved in, the counter campaign was called Nudity is Not My Choice and when we were doing the protest they actually showed up and we had a face off at Supreme Court where they were threatening now to strip us. I think that again going back to even my experience and other women's experience is that dressing is a scapegoat. It is not the real issue. Yes, that's not the real issue. Because even when you look at the various victims that have been victims of violence and even stripping in public transport it's really not about dressing. Like the lady in Nyeri had a sundress. The lady in Kisumu had white trousers. The lady at Embassaba, the incident that happened at Embassaba had jeans on and a red top. The Kayole incident, the woman hooker, egg hooker. At that stage she knew her because she was hooking eggs. She had a jeans skirt. So it's really not about dressing and we need to move away from this conversation of dressing and tackle the real issue. The real issue is that there is a gender war. There is a gender war and it's playing out to the extreme level in public transport. There is this perception that this is a woman's place and any deviations from that we are like, let's show you where you belong. Go back to your place. Go back to your car box. And again going back to the perceptions we have about Matatu people. Even the men themselves don't see themselves as being in jobs. Right? I was waiting for a job while waiting for the real job. So part of our work is saying this is a job. The Matatu is your office. Right? According to our research, most people on a minimum are in the Matatu industry for three years. Yeah, a minimum. Minimum. Some have worked there for years. It is not a transition job, seek a job, any job. And if you take it seriously, it could bring you a lot of return. Like we've had one of our ladies, she started off as a conductor, moved as a stage manager. And she wants her own Matatu. Oh, nice. So those are the examples we say, like, the effort you put and your vision and your desire about working in the industry is what will determine come out of that position for long. Right? If you answer, how are you interested in it? How are you interested in it? This is how you can get your own Matatu. And you know the industry. Yeah. Who's better to run a Matatu than you who's been in the industry. Right? And so I would like us, I think, in conclusion to move away from conversation about dressing. It is not about dressing. It is not about dressing if there is a gender wall. We need to, as a society, we need to unlearn and relearn the modern woman. Yeah. Right? We are working off a script that only worked for our great-grandmothers. Yeah. The modern woman has had to reinvent herself. Right? And it is our, at the very least, our mandate as a society to just learn the modern woman. That's powerful. Yeah. Things are changing. We need to change with them. It's time to join me. Thank you for having me. And we wish you the best in your campaign. And we hope to see more changes in the industry. And creating a comfortable environment for women to commute and to work in that industry. So thank you so much. So like Naomi said, we need to learn the modern woman and create a comfortable environment for her to work