 I have rights, you have rights, even animals has rights. So earlier on I got into professors and animal rights activists, and a woman with a hedgehog to ask them some questions. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Procrastinators Podcast. I'm the best guy ever, and Monkey Jones is here. Hello everyone, I'm the Nostalgia Monkey. I remember it so you don't have to. Classic comedy. Hippocrates here. I don't have anything after that, that's a good one. That really stole the show, we should just start right now. What a great bit, you should start a whole thing about that. You should start a whole channel and branch out and just make it a whole franchise. I bet that channel would be awesome. I feel like you can incorporate wearing glasses into this character that you just come up with. Yeah, that Mumkey with the glasses. Yeah, that's a good one. I'll do this great thing where I take a movie and I condense it into six seconds. And it'll be like Titanic in six seconds. It's a pretty good idea. It's actually actually. I'm here. And I guess Ben's here. I'm talking about cultural appropriation. It's true. Okay, so today we're talking about animals. I just finished my monkey studies class 101. How dare you? For my Gen Ed requirements. Fantastic. National Monkey History Month. That was in February. Ouch, harsh. Okay, so today we're talking about animal rights. Animal rights. And in fact, if you believe it or not, there is an urban dictionary definition for animal rights. So let's take a gander here. Animal rights, a philosophy that suggests, does that have a vape? Did I just hear a fucking vape? No, of course not. Of course it wasn't. The vape vape is here. That would never happen. Guys, I think we need to punish Ben for this vaping bullshit. And I'm prepared to do a monkey siren every time I hear this shit, to alert you all. Because I've graced many years. That sounds like a good idea. If I hear a fucking vape, I'm going to go... Then you'll all know. This is just going to be a game of cat and mouse of how subtly can I vape before I said, I'm just going to be pushing the boundaries every time. This is going to be like that monkey with the symbols in Toy Story 3. Yes, exactly. So here's our definition. Excuse you indeed. What's the definition of douchebag who vapes all the time? Ben St, look it up. So animal rights. The definition is shorter than the word. Well, it happens. Animal rights, a philosophy that suggests some or all animals have the right to possess their own lives. Contrary to popular opinion, animal rights activists do not ask for voting rights for chickens or pigs. Rather, they ask that animals not be used for food, entertainment, medical research or clothing. Some activists maintain that there is a distinction between the sentient or self-aware animals, and those with a large degree of self-awareness are to be afforded the right to possess their own lives. Animal rights are also largely tied to dietary lifestyles such as vegetarianism and veganism, who would hoard the consumption of meat products in accordance with the principles of animal rights. In this podcast, animal rights means animals shouldn't be treated any differently than humans. If you wouldn't eat a human, you wouldn't eat an animal. Is that what we're going with? I don't think so. I think it's more like should we treat them like decency. That definition seemed to imply that believing in animal rights period means that we shouldn't eat animals. I love animal rights period. That's a little bit beyond the pale of what I would expect. There's other definitions here. We're going to come up with our own reasonable definition. I think the animal rights in general is a broad scope as to whether any organism besides human, whether it deserves any rights at all to its own life, to its existence, whether we should respect it and its habitat. I don't care at all. It's the worst topic ever. That's a position. I'm glad you signed up for this episode, Hippo. Yes, see you later, Hippo. You wanted me to be here. No, you wanted yourself to be here. You signed up, goddammit. Nobody signed you up. Momke said he wanted me to be here. I don't know why. No, don't tell them I seek that I got you and Tom here specifically because I like you. Gib, you have a Hippo who is your son. You have a state in this argument. He's your daughter then. Hippo is my roommate. Don't assume his gender. Hippo is listening to this podcast and shedding a single tear as he hears this. Don't consecutive single tears. I'm just his roommate. Okay, well, let me take my position here and we can go from there. I was going to say my first thought was no animals deserve any rights at all, including humans can do whatever they want to animals and I do not give a fuck. I've changed that opinion slightly because I realized that if that definition was, if I use that, I don't actually think humans have very, you know, I don't think that human intelligence is anything particularly like special in the sense that it distinguishes us from animals. We're just better at achieving our goals. So what I'm going to say is I think, yeah, well, you know, humans are smarter than animals. No, no, we are definitely smarter. For example, some humans have intelligence that is, I mean, not like animal level, but like closer to animal level. So like, where does the, where does the cutoff lie? I think even somebody with a Down syndrome is smarter than a gopher. I'm not disputing that at all. But what I am saying is there is like a measurable scale of intelligence and you say all animals don't matter. You should take like something like a dolphin, people say, right? Dolphins are generally pretty smart. If you can measure the intelligence of a dolphin and say that it is worth keeping and I don't know what the standard should be, but if we could figure that out, that should be the standard for whether or not we care about it. I have a thought on this. Dolphins, people like dolphins because, you know, they're like, they can do tricks, they can talk, they'd be like, and we're like, oh, that's nice. You know, I like that thing. I won't kill it and any animal that has made us enamored with it so that we don't kill it is smart enough to live, I think it's just there's no like a level of intelligence. There's no like a data point. There's no math number that we can attribute to any like on a scale. What animals should we kill and what should we not? I disagree. I think if we like animals to be alive, then they should live. Okay, but just think about it for a second. What you're doing there is just making an emotional argument for things that humans like. Yeah, exactly. That's my point. I don't care about like, oh, we should try to like categorize everything and make it like a hard distinction. Okay, but here's the problem. If you like your dog, you shouldn't eat your dog. But if other people don't care about their dogs, they can eat them. It just depends on who you are and where you are in the society around you. Here's the reason why there's a flaw in that argument, because what if humans were to someday meet some organism that was, you know, human level intelligence or higher, who knows, but was just repellent on many levels. Kind of like the bugs from Starship Troopers. What if we were to encounter a species like that and just assume that they were bad and gross and we didn't like them, even if like, so I'm proposing a universal standard for we will care about a creature. I don't know what those bugs are like. Can they talk to us with language? Well, they do communicate with each other. Okay, a lot of them are just grunts, but they do have like queens and those seem to have like human level intelligence, if not higher, not like super intelligence. Well, then she should be an ambassador and then people will be like, oh, I guess these people, these are like, this is a different race. We should be treating them like a minority. That's totally, well, I guess. So like herd them into camps and cook them and eat them. Yeah. Well, okay. I think Starship Troopers is actually a great example of this because the whole deal behind Starship Troopers, a fantastic movie, everybody go watch it if you haven't, is that humans got into this war with the bugs based mostly on a misunderstanding. A bug war, if you will. It was in fact a bug war. It was 100% a bug war if only Mochi was here. I forgot about the bug war. You should never forget about the bug war. Every day, Ben. Oh my God. I'm part of the problem. That's right. The Syrian refugee crisis wages on every day and you just turn a blind eye to it, Ben. So too does the bug war. That describes me too. Okay, so in that movie, the point is that humans in that movie don't give a fuck about the bugs because they're gross and they don't understand them. Even though throughout the movie, there are clearly signs that the bugs are only defending their territory and are only retaliating against humans because humans aggress against them and are trying to colonize their solar system and shit. So that's why the bugs attack humans. It's based totally on a misunderstanding, they could totally have gotten along or just left each other alone if they just didn't fuck with each other. But it's like the propaganda of, ew, emotionally we don't like these bugs and the propaganda throughout the film is fantastic at illustrating how nonsensical it is. Humans just start stomping on cockroaches on Earth as if that's a fucking resistance against the bugs in space. But do you understand my point here? It's just that we need some sort of hard system. I can ultimate my stance a bit to fit with that. Say for example where there's like, a bug comes and it says, no, we're intelligent, you idiot. And then one of the humans is like, oh, they're intelligent. Wait, we should stop killing them. And then there's other humans are like, I don't care, I gotta go. I'm gonna smush them. Then at that point, it will be up to the humans to decide amongst themselves democratically or however they decide things, whether that new species should be considered a beast or a potential, you know, new species we can talk to. And that will be like, what I'm saying is, a universal standard is too, the amount of things we could ever find out in space, for example, is ridiculous. I don't think a universal standard will count for the whole universe. I think we should just take things as they come. Well, I mean, you can separate it into different components. Like if they are actively trying to kill you, this entire race. We're here today on the PCP talking about animal rights. We're 10 minutes in and the scope of our argument has already expanded to a universal extra galactic scale. It has to, though. It has to, because I'm talking about a universal. It really doesn't have to, Nick. We can talk, believe it or not. These arguments will apply to my thoughts on like why we can eat meat and all that kind of stuff. I like chicken more than I like hucking chickens. Well, sure. Agreed. But like what about something like, you know, doing makeup experiments on monkeys? Like where do you draw the line on that? Well, they look fabulous. How does the bug empire, Nate, help you answer the makeup monkey question? Simply. Simply because the same principle applies. So, okay. Monkeys are really, really retarded and stupid. Monkeys. Monkeys are okay some of the time. God damn it. Like, okay. The thing, why do humans, you know, care about dogs, right? It's because dogs, A, are generally like loyal and they'll, you know, they like your scent and they get used to you and they'll be nice to you. Right. And they're also like attractive visually. They're cute. They're attractive. Yeah, they're highly attractive. Most importantly that they're subservient. Like if all dogs were like by default, like vicious and you had to tame every single one, we wouldn't like dogs. We'd kill them. They'd be like wolves and lions. And also all dogs would have to. Yeah, because they're pure of heart unlike humans. Yeah, unlike humans. Okay, but here's the thing about dogs. So we, you know, we enjoy their company as a species very much. We've bred them to be that way and, you know, that may or may not have issues, but assuming that that's just how it was, no problem there. But at the current day, like people like dogs because they're nice to us. But does that, and that's why we don't... Current day discussing animal rights. And that's why, like, we care about them in general as a species. But like, is there anything, do we know that a dog really, what is the value of a dog's life to itself? You know, if you kill a dog... Is a dog not entitled to the sweat of his own brow? I know. I don't think that he is. Wait, I think, if you kill a dog, I think it won't know that it's dead because it's be dead. Well, a human that doesn't know that it's dead either. Exactly. That's, yeah. See, that's... So what's the standard for not being allowed to kill, you know, just as a one example of something you can do to it? Well, you're allowed to kill a dog. It's not like you go to jail for it. That's not actually true all the time. That's, yeah. There's laws. There's animal abuse laws and stuff. Right. And we're here, we're here saying revoke them. Trump, revoke that shit. It's time to go back, make America great again, let me kill my dog. Single greatest social issue facing us today. I'm a one issue voter, guys. I vote for whichever candidate will let me kill my dog. Okay, but to get back to the point that monkey was making, about like using animals for makeup testing and stuff, like, okay, so clearly the animals don't seem to enjoy that too much, right? They're not into it in general. And you could call that mistreatment. But how much should we actually care about the suffering of any animal? And in this case, you know, we're talking about a monkey. A monkey. I would say only, we should only really give a shit if it is like at a certain level of intelligence where it's like cognizant. See, you're just making it more complicated than it has to be. Am I? Here's what I think. Just appeal to your emotions. If you like the monkey, you want it to be happy, then you should just let it be. That's not good enough. Here's the thing, I would not paint makeup on a monkey's face and then like, I don't know, blast it with a fire hose to see how much punishment it could take before the makeup or opposite. I wouldn't do that. I would feel like I was a shitty person if I did that. Therefore, I think it's a shitty thing to do, and they shouldn't do it. I mean, that's why do you feel that way? Is it because you're anthropomorphizing that monkey and projecting the feelings that you as a human would have if that happened to you? It's because they share like 99% of our DNA. We share like 50% of our DNA with a fucking banana, but we still don't worry about how bananas feel. And I feel sorry for bananas and the monkeys eat them. Yeah, I bet you do. It's more than 50% of the banana. But, I mean, Whatever. I mean, we understand faces and two eyes and stuff monkeys have like a face. Yeah, I don't know. You know, as a human being animal, as a human animal, we recognize a monkey's face and we think, ah, he's got emotions. He's got a face. He's got a family. But we don't know that. That's an assumption being made. Yeah, but we're imperfect beings. We're not robots, Nate. We can't be robots. You'll never be a robot. We should strive for perfection. You gotta never be a fucking robot. We should strive for a better system. It's true that we can't know that the monkey has feelings like our own, but we can't know that about one another either. We can't see into each other's minds any more than we can see into the monkeys. We can make logical distinctions about what other humans are experiencing. I'm just saying that it's more difficult. Well, we can make informed guesses. That's all we can ever do about anything in our entire life. Yeah, and that's what we're doing when we say, oh, this monkey looks like it's in pain. I feel bad. Right, right. No, okay. But I'm saying, why should we care that it's in pain? What is the standard we're using to give a shit about that? I have an answer for you. That's a real question. That is a real question. Because when we decided this would be the topic, when it comes to monkey rights, and I'm not even memeing here, it's something that I'm actually kind of passionate about. And I knew I was going to get emotional talking about it. And as we all know, when I get emotional on this show, I don't give the best arguments. So I actually wrote something up that I wanted to read about monkey rights. Okay, okay. If you guys are ready. Is this only applied to monkeys or is this applied to other animals? Just for monkeys. Other animals I don't care as much about. But, you know, I got a thing for monkeys. Does somebody have like a bird chirping in the background? Sorry, my window's open. You want me to close it? I'll get that. The bird is very distracting. That bird was raining. Alright. In present day America, the monkey is still not free. The life of the monkey is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. The monkey lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. The monkey is still languished in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land. And so we've come here today to dramatize a shameful condition. In a sense, we've come to our nation's capital to cash a check. When the architects of our Republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promiseary note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men, yes, monkey men, as well as white men, would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Written by me. Is that right? Written by you. Good one. Good one. So that's why I think the monkey should have rights. Did I not hear a similar speech that one time? I feel like it was, you know... That speech came to me in a dream. I said, I have a dream of this speech. Well, I agree with that. I hate black people, though. Oh, my God. Of course, of course. That's why I wanted to do the episode. Now I'm done. I'll see you guys in an hour for the questions. Okay, can I just say, I want to clarify just one thing about the argument, and it was just that, so we don't care, right? When you squish an ant, nobody gives a shit. It does not matter. Because the ants are only bad. They're only negative forces on my life. They don't give me happiness like a monkey or a dog. Well, right. But that's still kind of an emotional thing. But even when you get to something like a spider... But being happy is intrinsically valuable. It's not just an emotion. It benefits my life in so many ways. If I'm a serial killer and I enjoy killing humans, then that makes me happy, but it does not benefit everybody else. Sure, but that's an outlier. General humanity, not just the serial killers. Well, but these are unanswered questions among human society. I still don't understand at all what you're saying. Okay, I was trying to get that. I feel like you've got... Yeah, go on, please. Lay out your thesis for us. It's very clear to me. We don't care if small insects or whatever die, that we don't spend a moment to consider their well-being whatsoever. And yet we do when it comes to things that start to get a little bit more like us, you know, like a hamster or a gerbil or whatever. And of course we get to like a dog. Yeah, that's my dude. And when we get to something like a dog or, I don't know, like a deer, just like... We hear about dogs more than deers and shit. I don't know what the standard is. So what I'm getting at is what we're using for how much we care about the well-being of these animals. So your thesis is just a question. No, no. My thesis is I have the solution, and what we should do is we should measure the intelligence of each of these animals, make an actual determination about how, like, what their value is. But the thing is that applies to humans too, and I'm aware that that's exactly what we should do. And you should take everyone as an individual and, you know... There is no scale, Nate. You can't just fucking measure everyone's IQ and be like, oh, here's where they fall on the spectrum of worth. What a brave new world this is. What is your better solution? My better solution is that you shut the fuck up. You son of a bitch. I'm trying to solve problems here. You said the thing about we don't care about insects. I mean, some people do, and if you anthropomorphize like an insect, if you watch it, you know, you can be like, he's gonna go get his lunch. You can make like little, you know, you can trick your brain into thinking of them as like... You can be like Carl Pilkington and convince yourself that you saw a bee have a heart attack from other works. That's right. He is just the perfect example of this shit. He's the cutoff point for what is not worth human rights. He's just below the cutoff. He's right on the cusp. So basically, it's not like universal that we all hate bugs, but we all like monkeys. Some people hate monkeys. It's not even about hating. It's just about not caring about them. Some people hate giraffes. Some people hate hippos, you know. It's just the way it is. It shouldn't be about hating. It should be about whether we care about them or not. Some people don't care about certain animals and they care about others. The point I'm saying is that my stance with animals is that I think, you know, I'll respect them. I won't kick a puppy just for fun, but if he starts to kill me, then I will. But if I want to eat that puppy, then I'll kick him. Well, if I want to eat that puppy, I'll tell someone else to do it, because I don't want to do that. There are... I'm aware that there are complications to this. Like, you know, when a baby is born it can't sustain itself. So is it really valuable? Can you take the potential of the organism into account? Well, there you go. You dismantled your own argument. No, I didn't. There has never been a case of an ant getting intelligent enough to be worth caring about. Why do you care so much about the value? I'll tell you why. I know why. Think about the long-reaching ramifications of our current idea systems. That is what I worry about. I'm just like, let's get a good foundation now There's no value there. Also, if you come with your little calculator and punch in the numbers, you realize that this dog has no value. Would you just, you know, kill it immediately? Try to make gunbusters happen. Do you have any humanity at all? Why do you care about the value so much? It comes into everything you do. I think that like, the only ethical system that is coherent at all and isn't hypocritical is... Oh, fuck. I had a whole thing. And I cut out. What happened? I guess we just couldn't hear him. I had a whole thing and I said it. Say it again. We can interrupt Ben. It's okay. The gist of what I was saying is, Nate, why do you care about the value so much when it comes to everything? You're a dog and you punched in the numbers in your little thing. You realize that it didn't have any value. Would you just kill it right then and there? Or do you have any humanity? Do you let any of your emotions exist? It's about worrying about it. It's about being concerned about its well-being. That's the issue. It's not like whether I'm just going to shoot things that I don't like. That's just not something I do. I just don't see why you care about the intrinsic value of anything to the point where it comes into every like, hmm, should I worry about this? If you're worried about it, like on an instinctual level. I'll tell you exactly why. Because human instinct is not good enough. We need logical systems to enforce human behavior in the right ways. Hippo, I'm right there with you. I'm right on board with that exasperated sigh. You guys think that, oh, how could you say that? That's never been done before, except so much of human behavior today has been shaped by philosophy. Your head's at what a rogue visionary you are. Like, that's not... Then what's the problem? You're just fucking talking a bunch of shit, man. You're just talking a bunch of bullshit. I guess. If the criticism is what I'm saying is too obvious, then that's great. Then I hope that's... It's not that it's too obvious, it's just the way you're laying it out is just way too simplistic. And it doesn't have any application in our life. Of course I haven't solved it. I've been very thinking about all these concepts all the time. And then you come to real life and then it doesn't matter. None of it matters. Can't we just talk about specific things like overcrowding on chicken farms? Or the way we treat a pig? Instead of these weird philosophical ideas that you have with Star Trek and shit? Not when Nate's on the podcast, come on. You can talk about anything you want. Nate's on the podcast. I'm so sorry for leading the conversation down a path that you guys can't follow because you're too fucking dumb. You're a little pee brains. You just can't comprehend the next level of shit that's going on. You're too small for me, Nate. I can't handle it. That's right. I know. It's tough, man. Let me give my spiel. I think that the only thing that makes sense in life is to put yourself first and to put your own needs above everyone else's. Because if you don't do that then what the fuck are you doing? Someone's been reading a little I in Rand. What was wrong with your guys' parents? How do they raise these two monsters? Well, if you're like... No, that makes sense though. Yeah, I'm willing to sacrifice of myself if there are people that are worse off than me. Well, there's always going to be people worse off than me. You can't help everyone. You can't do it. It just doesn't make any sense. You can't even live. I think that unless you accept that I'm just looking out for myself you either just can't live at all or you're just going to be wrapped in hypocrisy that you'll never solve and you'll never be acknowledged. And I think... Yeah, you watch out for yourself you do what benefits you you help the people you can help the people that you care about because helping them helps you and that all makes sense and is fine you can give to charity because it makes you feel like a good person or whatever, that's all fine. But ultimately... I really think I'm just arguing for basic human nature here which I think should just be the default position but I just think that's what makes sense and I think that that makes sense on a species level too I think that humanity should put humanity's needs first and other speed we can watch out for them because having them around benefits us but when push comes to shove and it comes down to it I really think that we should to benefit ourselves anything goes and other animals just fuck them and they'll watch out for themselves even though they can't we're just lucky that other animals can't fight back yeah we get it so like if you knew that your neighbor was viciously beating his pet dog you would say well I'm not gonna get involved, I guess that's fine dogs should get beat if the guy wants to or whatever how does that benefit you? cause it makes me upset that the dog is being beat I don't know so I guess it's on an individual level for everybody where if you personally don't want dogs to get beat then go for it I guess so, yeah I'm fine with that I think there's enough good people in the world to stop all the dogs from getting abused all the time I would like to think so I think there is cause if we appeal to the emotion most people feel that way about dogs on an emotional level most people are willing to eat meat but also feel sad when they see an animal being harmed yeah that's fair but that doesn't solve anything it doesn't solve anything the problem mate is that that's just the status quo you say like oh the issue is like you know it's not what animals we should kill it's like which animals should be worried about that's not a problem that's not a problem that comes up in my everyday life I'm not wondering what I should be worried about just because it doesn't come up in your daily life does not mean it's not a problem I don't see how it's a problem but that's the whole issue that you don't think it's a problem because it could be a problem how could it be a problem ok here's how it could be a problem it is possible that every cow that we murder for us to eat actually is a conscious entity and is really upset about it and we're just committing genocide every single day that is possible and I would like to look into that ok that's just one example but I want to apply that logic across the board I'm pretty sure that cows don't like being killed that's why I said it's just one but that's the thing, whether we should give a shit because if it just is reacting to pain in its pain receptors then ok fine I think people react to pain exactly the same way I don't think there's too much of a difference between a cow and a human when it comes to death reacting to pain in our pain receptors is exactly what we do then tell me Gib, why do you care if a human dies and you don't care if a cow dies what's the difference? well I don't necessarily care if a human dies so you only care about things that affect you specifically I don't by default care about humans more than I care about cows I hear about people dying in the news all the time it doesn't affect me at all you would care if a human died in front of you or if a cow died in front of you yes both the same because it's death happening in front of me it's very different from knowing they wouldn't be the same but they would both disturb me yeah they would both disturb me seeing something in front of you is a lot different I know that something happens I know slaughterhouses kill animals and I eat the meat I know people die in horrific wars and I don't eat that meat I mean they don't sell that meat but like if I were to see either of those things in real life I would get upset and disturbed and want it to stop but I don't see it in real life I don't see it all the time it's just out of my vision but just because okay the problem right now you are saying nothing of value if I don't see it it's not a problem the whole thing is that Nate you're talking again from like a grand kind of like humanitarian vision of just like we need to set a precedent that sets all of human behavior and elevates all of humanity as a species where Gib is just saying I'm just trying to live my life and half like 99% of the time I don't get a fuck about any of this because it doesn't affect me personally it's two different just lifestyle choices and like philosophical perspectives on how to run yourself it's really what I was doing there is I was just trying to explain to Nate why I don't care about his issues that he seems to have you're not concerning yourself with the longstanding but that's not an argument against anything I'm saying you're just saying you don't care yeah I'm explaining why I'm sighing every time you bring this up because I think it doesn't matter that's why I was saying it it doesn't matter to you okay got it doesn't matter to you it does matter to me every week it's just Nate comes the Nate presents some like grand vision of like how humanity needs to change like right now that's right that's why I listen to the show and we all just listen and sigh Nate just needs to start a new podcast called Nate Fleet where it's all about creating a better humanity I wanna be a guest on there the best future ever can I be the co-pilot on that ship I'll have to figure that out I don't know if you're qualified Nate just to bring this down instead of let's take it down from the grand philosophy thing look at some specific examples the only reason I stuck grand is because you can yeah I like that so like for example slaughterhouses with cows they're kept in these little little bins where they can't move they can't even step forward or sit down they're stuck standing all day to keep their meat nice and plump and juicy and all that shit and then if you're killing what's it called kosher if you're gonna kill a cow the kosher way which is like the jewish bullshit you have to like hang it upside down and then cut it and then it bleeds out and it's very painful and torturous so what do you think about all that shit is that okay okay so here's the thing I think cows are under the standard of intellectually caring about them so I'm fine with all of it totally don't care it can go on all day I'm okay with killing cows to eat them and I'm not trying to I don't know why we bought it in vegan shit at the beginning cause that's retarded I'm okay with eating chickens and cows and meat I'm not okay with it being tortured in order to die I think you can just kill it in a second you don't have to torture that fucker like the kosher way well here's the thing I think that I am logically consistent on this point because I say I do I am not interested I do think that it is not worth worrying about the well-being of a cow and that applies to every aspect of its life you can torture it you can do whatever you want to chop off all its legs you know bleed it out for its whole life fill its veins with acid those are those are all equally things that I am not concerned about you're not as smart as you that's correct that's correct but Nate if you were there in the slaughterhouse and they were like hey best guy ever come here a minute here's like a bolt gun like you're working at the slaughterhouse because I don't know just shut up stop criticizing me here's a bolt gun you gotta kill this cow here's a thing that you could just jam a rod in this cow's head and it would be dead in a second alternatively we'll pay you slightly more if you will like hang this cow up and like gently and like slit its skin in some points and like you need to watch it bleed out for like an entire like several hours like that scene from Reservoir Dogs you gotta play the song and dance around and stab it and shit so we can assume I'll get more money for doing something way worse is the idea yeah like would you just be fine if it's me so I guess I'll just do it this other way and that's fine would you just be fine with that I hear what you're saying and here's the thing and the issue is this is totally involved but it's not a sort of a part of the logical framework but okay so to answer your question I would not do that no and I think it is for a very reasonable you know reason I am a normal human being with all my emotional, societal conditioning built into me that yes these things are weird and gross and uncomfortable to do and I am not, I have never killed anything in my life this is why I feel like you say you're not being like hypocritical with your point you're consistent on your point that's your job but you say you're not being consistent on your point but even then as a normal human you recognize that you will you know think differently from your big philosophical idea that cows are not important well I understand Nate that what you're saying is that like ideally logically it should not matter what we do to this cow and whereas like you're human you can't divorce yourself from your human emotional response even though like intellectually you know that it's fine but it still feels wrong because of lizard brain or whatever well I mean I guess I can understand that point well here's where I disagree with you I don't think it makes sense to say here's a cutoff point because like Carl Pilkington who's just above the cutoff point and like a silverback gorilla who's just below it they're very similar to each other like there's not a meaningful distinction between two things that are very close but on opposite sides of that cutoff point I really think you have to look at it as a spectrum I am fully willing to look at it as a spectrum I yeah but then the problem with that is that at no point on the spectrum does the value become zero except at the very end until you get to an inanimate object so even like a fucking if it's a spectrum then even like a microbe has some miniscule amount of value that should be taken under some miniscule amount of consideration you never hit a cutoff point where you're like okay under this anything goes right you know you just have to involve practicality like what's practical but like that's what your emotional response that telling you oh doing this to the cow is wrong that's what your emotional response is telling you like oh even though this cow is not as valuable as a human it still has some value and I still have some empathy for it right well the empathy just comes from us assuming that it feels the same way well I'm saying that your logical response that your emotional response there makes logical sense based if you view it as like an intelligent spectrum only to some extent the way it seems Nate is that you're going into these logical situations with the idea that if you were a robot and you didn't have any emotions this is what you would come to the conclusion with this is what you would say and then you know on the other hand you have the reality that you wouldn't actually say that because you are a human and I don't know why you have that non-human robotic way of thinking even in consideration because it can't happen right now you're not a robot it doesn't make any difference well our system of laws our law system already is a divorce from emotional stuff we already have systems in place to do stuff like this I'm sympathetic to the idea of viewing things unemotionally and like trying to come to logical conclusions without bringing emotion into it I think that makes sense emotion does not mean best by the way you know we're trying to come to the best solution built in human emotional response you're trying to come to the best solution we were just talking about our opinions okay well let me say one point that is two Gibbs points to agree with what's Gibbs been saying here it is okay here's the thing though given the reality of what human beings are if I met a man who told me that his hobby he's a farmer or whatever and he has cows his hobby is to like drain the blood out of the cows and fill their veins with acid he liked to do it because it was fun and he liked watching them scream and die if he told me that you know I would be like my logic would still apply that you know their lives don't matter but what does matter is the kind of human being who would do that sort of thing is a psycho is a psychopath is not a person who you know like is a valuable member of the human race probably probably like they are a freak and it is logical that they might also do those sorts of things to human beings and so you can logically form from that position like okay this guy has problems I don't like him I condemn his actions on that basis you can still condemn you know things that are clearly bad that we don't like even if you know like the things being tortured or not inherently valuable well I want to say something about that that torture and the cow thing the whole thing with the kosher meat being you know you have to cut it by the neck and drain its blood until it's it's all gone and that's the only way Jews can eat that and halal meat is very similar and that I don't agree with because to get the meat out of the cow you just need to kill it and to torture it like that is just you know it's a religious thing you don't need to do that to get the meat out though if you gave a Jew something that wasn't kosher meat you wouldn't be able to tell you have no fucking idea we all agree that these kind of traditions are retarded traditions are retarded so what I would say is that if there's something like well if you like beef you have to kill a cow and I'm like well I like beef I like eating beef more than I care about some cow I don't know dying so I'm okay with it dying in the least harmful way possible because that's just the nicest thing to do is just to hope that it's the least harmful possible and they're not being tortured that's just I think that's a lot of people's general stance is that they like meat but they'd rather you know the cow lives a happy enough life and then dies instantly without feeling any pain I'm on hippo's side on that one you're definitely right everything dies eventually you know if you give them a quick death like what have we really lost here you know I mean everything should die I think dying will be eternal bliss I just don't want to be tortured before I die and I think animals probably feel the same way do you think the cow will get 72 virgins in heaven mom cake is he a lull or not uhhhh yeah this cow prays 5 times a day if this cow wanted to did he strap a bunch of bombs to his oven and blow up the barn he was gonna he was just about to if you don't do that you don't get those virgins damn man what if he died to feed some like ISIS fighters you know like some real heroes is muslim cow a friend of action draf absolutely they're best friends he's like you know as we all know action draf is a globetrotting cinema superstar and muslim cow is his token racial friend that's in the movies muslim cow is down there in pokemon hell just real salty that he didn't quite get the chance to carry out his terrorist attack holy shit somebody dropped muslim cow that's my favorite character the day before he was gonna do it oh i get it you'd be like having a burqa on the cow because it's a cow because it's a milk female oh yeah i guess it would it would look like a big black something or other big like a rock almost i got a big black something or other for you hippo um god i don't know okay i feel like i got out pretty much my whole position on this shit maybe there's more specifics we can talk about anyone got any things that really offend them i'm not gonna fall and as the only vegetarian i feel like i have oh that's right i always forget i always forget that you're a vegetarian tom i forgot i have no respect for you yeah no that's okay lay it down i mean i'm not gonna there's like that's the whole thing is that like despite the fact that i'm vegetarian i'm not like it's not something i like project out in the world and that's why i'm happy that everyone forgets because that means i'm not making a big deal out of it and that's a good sign i guess you're doing it right yeah right so like that is when people don't know that's a good thing um but no i do feel like it's very it makes sense for a lot of the like emotional vegetarians to like project like guys you're killing cows kind of stop it okay but anyway sorry like i mean i think that if that's your position that's your like i just i i just care about whether a person is consistent in what they believe you know i guess so i don't i don't blame like the crazy vegans out there because to them they really think that all around them are mass murderers and they're like what's happening here where am i like i get it if you if that's your view that that's pretty fucked up well they're just they're wrong though they're wrong but whatever well i mean my my perspective is just that um i think that ethical consideration shouldn't be given on any basis of intelligence it should be on the capacity to feel fain feel pain because you don't okay you don't have to be intelligent to suffer uh if you're feeling pain like it's uncomfortable it sucks and i don't like it like i don't know about you i tried to avoid pain as much as possible because i fucking hate it because it's the worst mm-hmm so i just i i don't eat meat anymore because like i'm uncomfortable i don't try and have a meal or anything that i wouldn't be comfortable preparing like start to finish myself like in all the actions um so i don't i don't have meat i'm not and i don't kill insects or shit i try not to at least like if there's like a big spider in the house and they're gonna someone wants to kill it take and i'll bring it outside because like i just i have this like innate respect for life and i don't think it it doesn't make any logical sense it's not uh even probably like the correct thing to do but just like i that's just my perspective uh i feel that all hey tom can i hit you with a hypothetical on that one sure sure go for it so let's say you discover uh-oh there's a big old mouse in my house and he's tearing up my shit he's eating all my food would you put a mousetrap or would you just let him live there um because you can't catch that fucker he's running around like crazy i would that was actually going to be my next point is that like when you have there's there's exceptions when it comes to be like pests and stuff like you have a termite infection in your house and they're fucking everywhere or you're infested with mice we've had mice in the house before uh it's a little different because like now they're directly affecting like uh your your your domicile and your your your your health essentially because like you have an infestation that can like quickly like spread disease and fuck you up so like at that point it's all it kind of comes under the same umbrella as like self defense like if a dude came my house with a gun and tried to kill me like i'd be chill with killing him because like oh hell yeah so it's the same thing with like if your fucking house is infested with shit and you're gonna die like you got to get rid of that too so like you know at the end of the day like again kind of like what ben was saying you put yourself first and shit like that but like i try to just like go through life and not cause harm uh in general try to like stay in my lane so to speak like actualize myself the best of my abilities without interfering with anyone or anything else um intentionally so my that's my general philosophy and that's why i don't eat meat anymore i don't like kill bugs or like mice or anything like that like i try and bugs is i i don't kill bugs either um but usually because you know i can i can safely get them outside the house or they're not bothering me like if there's a spider in like a like a very far corner of the attic or something uh he can stay you know i'm not gonna go there people too spiders are people too but if there's if there's like a spider like on my computer behind my computer i'm like i eventually i'm gonna have to go back there so i have to get rid of this guy but the killing him is there's gonna be bug juice everywhere i don't want that so so i don't kill things mostly because uh there's no benefit to me killing them aside from like a visceral reaction to stop something existing but um i'm you know i generally i like to not kill things unless there's no other way didn't there used to be a soft drink called bug juice that had like cartoon characters on the lid you know bug juice is like a thing i had at boy scout camp all the time which was kind of just like a cocktail of different like fruit punch mixes and stuff like it was never very good but they would just put like whatever kind of juice they'd have like yugio's head on it or some shit right i can't speak to that i don't know anybody remember that i don't even know what you're talking about but i'll take your word i remember watching kids wb and there'd be commercials for bug juice all the time i don't know i just said that it sparked my it sounds vaguely familiar so i maybe maybe it exists okay can i i would ask tom something about that though um about his pain stuff it's not it's not really challenging you but like so so i think i would just want to ask to be the most consistent with your philosophy would you say that like the sort of ideal version of that would be jainism which is this religion that is 100% focused on causing zero harm to any other light a living creature to the point where they may wear masks at all times to avoid breathing in bugs and accidentally swallowing them and killing them you know in that kind of way and they're always careful to not step on bugs or anything would you say that's like ultimate extreme i don't think i think it's going a little too far and the reason i think i always say when i explain my philosophy i always say it's like you know be like actual maximize your own happiness without intentionally causing anybody else harm i think intentionally is really important because lots of the times in order to maximize your own happiness you have to unintentionally harm somebody else right an example i use a lot of the times is like you know if you're going for your dream job and there's one position for it like in order to act maximize your own happiness you got a shit on someone else's dream job so like if you're in a situation where like doesn't make any sense i can't harm other people right you know like then all of a sudden you're basically like causing yourself pain and like the whole point is to not cause pain so if you're causing yourself pain it's that's yeah somebody somebody some in that situation somebody's got to suffer so it might as well be the other guy well that's what like the capitalistic system makes more sense because it's it's then like you both try as hard as you can and the one who is more capable gets rewarded and prospers and that's what we want that's what we want so it's like it's like if there are unintentional consequences as long as they're not as long as you're not intentionally or maliciously harming anybody else it seems to be okay you know because you're not like there's no i don't think it's okay to just be like well i did if i didn't mean to do it then it's all hunky dory well there's well you know what something's okay god there is i mean there's obvious exceptions like if you fucking like brutally murder somebody like with your car it's like i didn't mean to do it i should just be able to go home you know like yeah there's there's there's let's degrees of stuff but like just as a general guideline like you're trying to do you're trying to do the best that you can without intentionally or maliciously hurting other people it feels like a good kind of general standard to live your life i i mean i agree in so far as you can't you can't really actively try like like like if it's unintentional it's unintentional like you can't you can't set out to do less unintentional harm because the unintentional harm is outside your control and yet like unintentional harm is still just as bad as intentional harm so i don't know i don't know i feel like i don't think it's i don't think it's worth and i don't think it's any worse to do something intentionally bad than to do it unintentionally well i things the reason that that's incorrect is because when people do things intentionally wrong that creates a pattern of behavior that you can use to determine what their actions are likely to be in the future so you can say that they are both equally damaging to the world but you you do know when something is intentional versus unintentional that you know that person is likely to continue this kind of action whereas it was intentional sure i think i think intentional you know despite the effects being the same i think intentional is always worse for you like if i'm talking more like a code of conduct and less for like you know physical ramifications on the rest of you know the world and that's where i think that distinction becomes important like there's a to go back to the job example there's a difference between me going in for an interview and then you going in for an interview and you winning out over me like that was you just being the better candidate or whatever that's unintentional harm but if like we talked on the train we're both going for the same job and you fucking made sure that i didn't get off the train at the right time so i missed my interview and you got the job by default that's intentional harm yes you know that that guy is a bad dude right you just get you know if he's done that we're aware that this is a shady person and we don't want them doing that i'm pretty confused because i've never seen a cow go into a job interview right we're talking about that we're kind of moving away from animal rights haven't you read the far side dude oh yeah you're right belly washers the drink was called belly washers on the subject of meat i want to say something like like some people will say some people will be like yeah i know it's bad that the cow gets killed for this meat but like the cows already dead so like it's not bad if i eat it that's so stupid and i don't agree with that because it's like supply and demand right right if you're buying the meat you're contributing to the demand and you're you're you're indirectly but you're still like like supporting this system i mean that's why i don't do it like it is kind of like you know in terms of like practicality it's like yeah like you're the deeds already done and you're just kind of consuming flesh but at the same time again you're contributing to the system you're leading to it happening more my mindset is that that's right like if i was doing that myself i would be uncomfortable with it and therefore i don't participate but it gets a little more complicated to me at least when you think about the fact that the cows that are being slaughtered for this meat are being bred specifically for that purpose so like their life wouldn't even exist without this demand right yeah in a sense so that's so that's where i get a little oh man it's too tough they're still a living creature and they're still feeling pain and i would see how they are what is the net but are we talking about that that's when it gets tough like how do you measure like goodness do you judge it by net like life enjoyed by all creatures on the planet just by that definition every baby that we do not have like just everyone should be out fucking all the time to produce more humans to have more enjoyment you don't try to maximize that that's not a thing that you do you don't measure it but i'll talk about systems where we do but if you're trying i mean if you're trying to come up with like a schema of like what is good and like what is the what is a world worth pursuing i thought we were talking about cows though these are all relevant questions these are all relevant okay keep it to cows keep it to cows talk about what could be good or about cows okay okay i think it's baby it's possible i think Nate's baby example is germane well it doesn't matter because it also applies to cows oh wait germane means good i forgot uh so right okay so just to apply to cows is if we got two cows and you know you you you don't eat meat so you just let them live out their lives and you know they die let's say they don't have kids whatever uh then that's that's fine but if you are a meat farmer and you take those two cows and you breed them and you make a whole fucking fleet of cows you know and by the end and so let's say you've got like a thousand cows now but after you know what how long is the cow live let's say after like five years uh you slaughter them and kill them maybe that's a lot shorter i don't know but you you slaughter them and you kill them and let's say you do it in a generally humane way not like torturing them with like the like the jews love to do um and uh and you know you kill them and you you sell it and whatever so in that equation the one guy had like two cows and they had a great life you live with them they were like your pets they were your buddies and then they died as opposed to a world where you've got now a thousand cows who all had pretty good lives but they did end violently as they were killed uh so like which of those is a happier situation for the world i mean well i'm not talking about the world i think it's happier because now people have things to eat well let's just focus on the cows lives just well if we're focusing just on the cows it's definitely the first situation i don't know man no i i think i think there's something like if a thousand if a if a thousand cows live okay lives versus two cows living good lives i mean maybe maybe the thousand we're talking we're talking about i don't think i i guess maybe my differentiation here is like i don't think um i i don't think quantity has anything to do with it yeah why would the because benefiting two people is better than benefiting one isn't it can i just say why why why god fucking damn it can i say what i want to say jesus christ why would one thousand cows live worse lives than just two why why is that part of it no it's just because we kill them at the end we kill them for meat after several years is that it that's why yeah that's it that in this in this example that's the only thing dying of old age is also painful it probably is probably then then what's the difference well you could say the time that was lived between the two like those two at a higher quality life overall they live let's say ten years this is like a hypothetical scenario where no this is totally applicable to real life we're talking about how we should treat animals well okay why why is it okay to arbitrarily kill something after it's been deemed by someone else that their their function has been served now they're going to keep going well you could argue that it isn't well i don't because i i don't care about cows lives so that's you know that's my position well but you do i do so i i think that's kind of ridiculous it's like saying like oh like you know what if what if the state care of me and my family and i had like seven kids but like once i turn 40 they fucking kill me and use my body for medical purposes just depends point then was just making a question about you know what which of those is a better world which world has produced more joy you know the fact that if all the cows had a decent life then by virtue of the more cows having more of a good life they all add up to something good or well i don't know how you're measuring this we're talking about we're talking about a thousand cows whose lives is great but like it's just good enough that like it's not terrible right it's just but but but it's just worth living versus one cow that had like yeah this cow had a good ass life why why is that what do you mean why this is the hypothetical i'm laying out okay that alright fine that's the hypothetical i thought it was a different hypothetical but if that's the hypothetical i would say um i mean that's stacked in favor of the two cows having a great life but i'm just saying if there's two cows and they die of old cows and you have a thousand cows that get killed if they still have a decent life like there's there's no it's better to have more cows because there's more meat and that impacts more people than two cows that don't give any meat even if the cow and if we're talking about just the cows i don't think it makes too much of a difference if there's a thousand cows or two cows unless you explicitly say that the two cows have a much better life which is why i think it's a weird that there's only one answer to that of course it's the two cows alright to me to me it seems obvious that a thousand cows that like like from some from like a logical standpoint a thousand cows living mediocre lives is probably more happiness overall than one or two cows living real good lives but hey that's just a theory a game theory thanks for watching i think but from that you know sense of logic i think you know we should be making as many people as possible making as many as possible that's the logical application that you could also say that because all those cows die and that's sad that we should have no cows we should have no people we should have absolutely nothing because then there'll be no sadness in the world there'll be no pain there'll be no death it just it's just i don't see how this fits together thank you really heated right now to go to go back to my my original original point which is what i guess we were trying to talk about is like i was i'm thinking more along the terms of not not enabling happiness because i don't think there's any way to to like guarantee happiness i think at least for human beings you know that's that's up to you like you can only like set up potential for happiness but like it's your own actions in terms of whether you're happy or not the the what i was the kind of philosophy i follow is about avoiding causing pain and by that extension avoiding suffering and i think i can i challenge your philosophy with another yeah i'm down i'm down to discuss go so plants and fish are very similar in that neither feel pain and you have to kill both of them to eat them so why do you not eat fish um you know i i've asked myself that question i guess i guess i think it's because it goes that that's much more of just like a personal discomfort because they're still alive and i didn't wouldn't want to deny something but isn't a plant alive too it i think it's just i think it's just that fish have eyes and i've taken i've i've thought about that a lot because it's like okay by that same philosophy it is still hypocritical to have plants you'd have to subsist basically on nothing but like nuts and berries essentially that's what we've seen lives that's not potential for lives and and as sonnet and as sonnet you discovered after he evolved with his new body nuts and apples just won't cut it is that true though do do fish not feel pain how do we know that i've heard that i've heard that they're not smart enough to feel pain i just read it well let's let's just assume that that's true i mean i'm pretty sure it i've heard it before as well it's either a very popular myth or there's some science somewhere personally even if we put in a hypothetical animal that's like that though we could still you know i mean i personally the fact that fish don't feel pain say if i was vegan or vegetarian i would still not eat fish just because of that emotional right that's attachment because they have eyes and a mouth and i'm like oh that's a it's a it's a person i can i can very easily purify as a fish it's very difficult to anthropomorphize a plant without making it you know an animal with plant-like qualities and you know i just just today this philosophy like completely kind of comes into conflict with just like the structure of like how life on this planet works because like it's all designed to like kind of like we're the entire got one like macro organism and we're all parts of it and that means we all are interdependent so you can only resist to a certain degree unless you just want to give up yourself and die and then kind of go back into the soil and become fuel for something else so like it's an ultimate act of vegetarianism suicide it's not even like a joke when you really get fucking like like super deep into it which is why like i don't go out and like evangelize it or try and like make a big deal out of it because like to do it is like definitely an active hypocrisy to to a degree like the farther you go down that path you know Tom Tom it sounds to me like what you're saying is sort of at the logical end of vegetarianism lies you know this this sort of rejection of the systems that keep human beings alive or you know allows to a certain degree that's that's possibly true along the vegetarian lifestyle I would just I would challenge the vegetarian ideology at its core because I think that my whole argument at the beginning of this podcast was that I was a challenge to why they think the way they do and why I don't think that it is necessary to concern ourselves with the lives of animals at least to the extent that vegetarians do or or vegans or those guys who take to that extreme like living itself is kind of a selfish thing to do because to keep yourself alive you have to consume resources and like like like you know if you get a job someone else doesn't get that job and all that and like it's a it's a it's a better struggle for resources and position and status and money and sex and all that stuff and like yeah so that's that's why I really think that if you don't you have to if you're not if you don't like to live at all is to put is to look out for number one above all else and like if you don't acknowledge that I really think you're just kidding yourself you know but not not to not to suck my own dick too hard but I think the only I think the only difference between the our two positions here is that we both accept that living is a fairly selfish thing to do in general and that you know you consider so we agree on that but you seem to be okay at pretty much leaving it at that whereas I am interested in in continuing on to try to to investigate the ideal situation where we're causing the least harm possible I am interested in I am totally content with leaving it there you go okay okay well that was pretty juicy and we got any more points to make anybody yeah I'll pull them up but anybody got any any any more points to make I think frogs should take over as the main species on earth I don't like humans we have stupid podcasts that suck and they really shot themselves in the foot by making those frogs never made a shitty podcast I think me and Tom need to go out to dinner and he needs to like prepare me the greatest vegetarian meal of all time so I can see there are no good vegetarian meals well yeah then fuck you Tom is good Tom accepts that the vegetarian lifestyle is shit but he doesn't anyway I was almost sold but that's that's the weird thing I know some good vegetarian things actually I like there are good vegetarian meals I'm just a terrible vegetarian I actually actually like tofu you know the thing you don't even miss for me I didn't even bring this up at all but I actually would love to be a vegetarian specifically for the nutritional benefits like you if you're a vegetarian you will not be fat you just won't be fat it's not gonna have you're starving to do unless unless you're like unless you're like a shitty one you know you can eat high fructose corn syrup as a vegetarian here's the thing you can do for a vegetarian meal you get a bunch of vegetables and some olive oil and you put it all in a pan you just chop it up a bit onions peppers asparagus all sorts of things you put them in a pan and you just roast it you roast that for like an hour or so and it's just great there you go but that just sounds like a side dish like I'd still be hungry for it's a big it's a big deal because of the olive oil it's like chili and olive oil and garlic and pepper and all that haven't you ever had like vegetarian noodles at like a Chinese place with delicious sauce it's purely vegetarian but it's fucking delicious and it's like a big ass entree type meal I love those those are totally vegetarian pasta noodle dishes with vegetables are great Nate the only food I eat is fried chicken now you're speaking my language you're well in your language would you my snapchat is like half just like videos of me frying shit yeah have you ever like eaten just the fried part of like the skin all the fucking time I peel it off first and eat it yeah maybe that's the only good bit maybe you could just eat that part they also have extra time yeah I'm a vegetarian I buy chicken wings and I cook them but I only eat the skin and I throw the rest to my dogs it makes perfect sense you know I just feel more comfortable that way okay let's say I just have these questions here okay here we go at tbob806 asks how do you guys deal with stress oh fuck is there really any good way to deal with stress I don't know it the main way I deal with stress is to not worry about people seeing me get angry if you worry about that it's just an extra layer an extra layer being embarrassed about your feelings is retarded I know how Gib deals with stress though Gib goes into Dark Souls and kills an NPC that's how he lets off steam it's true I like that system a lot my reaction my reaction to stress is to like shut down and go catatonic and not do anything Ben lying on the floor emotionless stress well yeah basically it's just like can it work? well no no that's not my coping that's my natural reaction not lying on the floor but it's me sitting at my computer just like staring at a screen just like picking at my hair or something just for like hours that's my stress reaction the best coping mechanism that I have with it is to fight through it and do something anyway and usually that makes me feel better but of course easier said than done accomplishing one of the things on your task list when you're stressed is I think the best way pick the smallest one it's also the most difficult thing to do it's really hard it's why you need to have a bunch of shitty projects that don't matter like I have with the brisker drawings I'm still doing if I get to the end if I can't think of anything to do I do that and I feel okay if I get to the end of a day and I feel like I haven't accomplished anything I'll like make a t-shirt and that will be like oh I did something today okay what do we got here how about at based and a man says wait no it's a terrible question never mind okay here's a better one at our hero our good friend hgbguy asks this incredible question you may only choose one chicken or tea that's your question I'd choose tea by default I would be really sad to lose either one oh yeah well I could have coffees who cares tea or chicken my gut reaction is that I'd really miss chicken but on the other hand like other meats are good as well whereas there's really no good substitute for tea Ben can you make chicken nuggets out of a different animal can you make chicken tendies out of a different animal can you make buffalo wild wings out of a different animal actually I just yesterday watched a video of John from foodwishes.com preparing what he called city chicken which is just pork arranged to look like a chicken wing and supposedly it's pretty good so maybe I guess I would give up chicken actually now that you said oh fuck you I like pork because I'm kicking you guys out of the chicken nuggets fan club I would definitely give up tea I like tea but I don't need it did he get all those tweets did he get all the retweets no he didn't he didn't get 18 million but I think it got to like 4 million or something it's the most retweeted tweet of all time so did he have that agreement ahead of time what was the arrangement here did he just tweet like hey if I get a million tweets what he did is he tweeted it how many retweets do I need to get a year supply free nuggets and they responded 18 million so he quoted that and said helping to get out I need my nuggets and he got like 4 and a half million tweets and it was the most retweeted tweet of all time so Wendy's just like you know what we'll give it to you that's fucking great that's fantastic the most retweeted tweet of all time that almost makes up for the porn the Wendy's porn yeah wait I feel like I was gonna say oh yeah the one last misgiving I have about giving up chicken is that chicken breast is like the cheapest meat like all other meats are more expensive than chicken that's that's what would make me sad about giving up chicken I feel like a lot of the time fried chicken it's mostly in the batter and I can I can I can I can do it with other meat I probably could nothing beats chicken nuggets with with buffalo sauce baby you can't beat it some of that honey mustard sauce I might have to give up tea you gotta give up tea who gives a fuck about tea yeah I drink tea like I drink tea every day and even I know chicken I mean how are you gonna bulk without chicken come on come on I enjoy chicken more often than I enjoy tea I should give up the tea there are so many tricks better than tea I like it I like it there's so many but I've already done this and given up chicken there's so many different kinds of tea so many different kinds of chicken I could probably if I wanted to give up meat entirely it wasn't that hard I did it in one day just one day to decide Jesus Christ how long you've been a veg man I think seven years now seven years now Tom this is an important question I forgot to ask yeah as a vegetarian do you still eat pussy you know that is my one flaw I suppose you'll do that on the rare occasions I'm allowed you hypocrite hey okay here's another question hey guys do you think vegetarian women still swallow cum they'd better well like if a cow could talk and would say like yeah take my milk you know go for it no problem swallow my cum dude okay here we go at Ger Gerad says what is the ideal breakfast of champions especially excited to hear a hypocrite and his take on English breakfast also his name is toasty boy what is the breakfast of champions in reference to anything what's your favorite breakfast that was the slogan for weedies for a while right that's true weedies is not involved in my breakfast of champions I occasionally have an English breakfast with tomatoes and mushrooms and toast bacon and sausages and beans it's all nice and greasy and cool but I don't have it every day because it's a lot of stuff to do but yeah I mean English breakfast is my favorite I don't know if yeah English breakfast is good every breakfast you eat is an English breakfast I don't know if this is the best well Nate I have two breakfast stories one is okay we went one year to like Connecticut con or something and we stayed at this weirdly fancy hotel remember that like we got we were in this hotel that was like really fancy for some reason I think I do remember that yeah there was like a sky bridge over to the event or something yeah yeah okay and there was like a big like painted mural in the ceiling of the foyer or whatever anyway it was advertised that there was free breakfast like free continental breakfast meaning like you know some danishes and coffee and like a little like like sealed pouch of cereal or whatever but I went to like this other room by accident it was like a restaurant in the thing and I ordered and I ordered lobster eggs Benedict thinking that it was yeah thinking that this was thinking that this was the free breakfast and they gave it to me and then they were like yeah $35 I was like I'm just a kid I don't have any money and then like I don't know they like I went and got mom or something and like I think they gave it to me for free because like I was a kid yeah that's nice so that was one of the best breakfast I ever had the other one okay the other day a couple days before I left digi house we went out to waffle house together and I discovered a fucking incredible loophole because waffle house is kind of pricey for what it is right like the food's not great they're pretty shitty yeah it's kind of shitty and it's not that cheap but you can like hash browns are like $1.75 and a triple serving of hash browns is like less than three times it's like $3 and you can get a topping for like 50 cents a piece and one of the toppings is sausage gravy so go to waffle house get a triple hash browns with sausage gravy and it is a huge fucking bowl of hash brown smothered in like ladles full of sausage gravy I was stuffed and it cost me like $3.75 that sounds amazing it was amazing everyone try it go and rip off that's a bensaint hack right there go and rip off your local waffle house by the way I fucking love sausage gravy and I hate that they don't eat it above the mason-dixon line oh yeah we do I like never had it I had it like once in my whole life until I was like well yeah we grew up in fucking Massachusetts yeah in Iowa every gas station would have biscuits and gravy available to eat and they had sausage gravy they don't have it around biscuits and gravy was not a thing around Boston you could get it at KFC but not like sausage gravy they'd have like brown gravy it was the shitty like brown gravy I remembered my actual favorite breakfast I ever had it sounds weird but it's cold salmon like cold salmon fish bit with scrambled eggs but put in the microwave it's very strange it's really nice like cold salmon and hot microwaved scrambled eggs delicious if you have that that reminds me of another breakfast favorite but it also worked good for brunch or lunch which is a bagel with cream cheese capers, onions, tomato slices and thin sliced smoked salmon it is a locks bagel is one of my other favorite breakfast but you gotta have the capers the capers really make the meal trust me I wanna hear what you guys think of this one for the breakfast of a true champion you sleep in until noon and then you eat lunch I was gonna say I don't have breakfast I intermittent fast but I also sleep all day regardless of when I wake up wait that's not the dietary intermittent fasting of like the professional bodybuilders that's not what you're talking about I eat for an 8 hour period I fast for 16 on the daily and do you do this for like the weight that's intermittent fasting that's how I heard about it but I just do it because fuck why not it's easy I kinda do the same thing where I'll eat for 16 hours and then for 8 hours I won't you talk about 18 hours and 16 hours straight like that's a big meal no just like every now and then sometimes I eat breakfast and lunch and dinner these random little meals throughout the day 8 hours no eating at all I don't understand what you're talking about he's saying he's fucking normal and then goes to sleep I fast when I'm asleep it's a fucking joke Tyrone likes to pyramid his meals meaning each meal is bigger than the last I met Tyrone's dad the other day he was a short Mexican guy Tyrone's 6 foot 10 and 300 pounds what? some donkey for you here's a question at Vivian Flamer asks will you validate me by answering my humorous question that leaves little room for discussion towards the end of your podcast please? no moving on next question at anime animated people have weird names maybe it is animated oh yeah that's probably it animated oh you got it good job have you ever had any paranormal or otherwise inexplicable experiences? no I am a ghost have you ever had a paranormal thing happen to you? I went to pokemon hell oh shit how was it? it was a hot it hurts a lot trust me I had a ghost I had a ghost so my college was real gay but I guess it was the most haunted college in New Jersey it had some shitty little claim to fame there were a couple of local ghosts in different buildings whatever when I first got there there was a freshman they had a thing there was a raffle to see who got to go on this ghost tour where a tour guide would go around and talk about the ghost oh my god this is a fucking tale we went around to different places oh this is the ghost supposedly he is here and we went up to the top of this administrative building that I had that is not a normal place to go and we were standing up in this conference room with windows and stuff and he is talking about the ghost he is talking about whatever ghost of a woman or something who died or something and there is a lightening flat someone takes a picture in a camera and I swear to god reflected in the window in this room I see the image of an old man in a poncho standing next to a little boy and I am like huh that looks an awful lot like a ghost and I was like hey excuse me I just saw a ghost in the mirror I saw the ghostly image of an old man in a poncho standing with a little boy and he was like oh no that is not the ghost never mind don't worry about it it is fine and then some fucking goth chick was like uh and got all spooked and she was sitting on a radiator and she was like uh and she kind of made a scene about it and the tour guide was like oh what is it and she was like oh I felt something but you know I am very receptive to the spirits I talk to ghosts all the time and then she went on this big stupid thing about her retarded beliefs or whatever because she sat on a hot radion she went ah she fucking she faked the whole goddamn thing for attention that son of a bitch I need to ask so how convinced are you that what you experienced there was a paranormal event zero percent okay that is what I wanted to hear I had a real one if you want to hear my real paranormal event sure so one time me and my buddies we went to Red Lobster like they for some reason all these fucking places you know you order crab legs or lobster they don't take the meat out for you they're like here here's a $25 chore for you have fun so I got all the meat out of my lobster and I had this shell sitting over there and it started shaking around a bit and I think there was a ghost in the shell wow fuck all of you rap and bends gay bull shit and not my hilarious meme you just put the words of a thing that everyone knows it was all just a shaggy dog story I know that's not true I'm starting my new podcast I'm starting the pro labs and gators podcast hey here's a question that's not purely a puns this is a purely a vanity question a facu at faccacababaca god damn it I don't know whatever faccacababaca how do you like your steak and I'm only answering this because I just had the best steak in my whole life two weeks ago my parents came to visit in Cincinnati and we went to this place called the precinct for the first time in my life they wanted to go to a fancy restaurant so I got this reservation at the place I never believed there was such a thing as a good restaurant I assumed everything was McDonald's quality or worse and I got to this place and we had this it's famous for its steaks like a Cincinnati famous restaurant had the fucking steak and it was just the literally the best meal I've ever had in my entire life and it was I believe medium no it was medium rare yeah it was medium rare I think medium rare is the way to go it was pink and juicy and so fucking succulent everyone go to the precinct I just it's not a steak but I just went to a place called moxie burger yesterday which I'd never been to before and ordered the classic moxie burger which is it's a burger medium rare with bacon like a cheese sauce some other spicy aioli sauce on it or something and a fried green tomato and I'd never had a fried green tomato before it kind of tastes like a pickle anyway it was super good and medium rare medium rare is the point oh I just thought of a cool thing to say this could be a hashtag liking well done steak is the equivalent of liking Dark Souls 2 that's that's the comparison it's quite apt because people it's mostly because people have come out and said you know I think well done steak is the best and I'm like well it isn't you just like it you're dumb I agree Hideki Kamiya said that as a boy he would eat steak he would eat American steak only he couldn't understand all the words like he couldn't fully appreciate the taste of the American steak which inspired him which inspired him to make his own steak as an adult and like deliberately leave out some of like the key ingredients so that the player of the steak had to like piece the story together in their own minds but you said Hideki Kamiya what you mean is Hideki Taki Miyazaki fuck I meant Hideki Taki Miyazaki I was quite lost there I got it now here's to Miyazaki here's another question this is one I've been mulling over in my mind for a long time at Mostafa was here asks is it gay to fap with friends not at all I'm not prepared to condemn it to gay get out of here you fucking gay what do you mean there are situations if you're back to back if you're back to back it's not gay dude but why if you're not gay you're still a fag just go to the fucking next door well just go home would you be like two of you like back to back fighting off waves of zombies like jizzing all over them the only weapon you have that would be okay look this isn't actually like the full fap story but it's like when I was a little boy my friend showed me some hardcore porn you guys all know Heather Brooke right the famous deep throat she's a goddess my friends showed me that and I didn't jack off with them but I went to the next room and I jacked off and I just feel totally vindicated for that whole event I don't feel there was a shred of gayness if anyone is gay it's them for giving me a boner that's gay to bring up porn one time as a youth me and a friend went to the bathroom and I was peeing in the urinal and I finished and then for some reason I decided to jerk off into the urinal and I didn't real fat I was a little kid I thought it was cool I was like hey I'm jerking off and he was like are you jerking off and I was like yeah I am and I did but you know what unlike Nate I was fucking gay and weird one time at summer camp a dude just pulled out his dick and showed it to me and said like dude isn't this sick I was like is it I'm gonna be sick that's gay isn't this diseased are you a doctor by any chance that's what he was trying to say we live in a mad world a world of possibilities personally I don't think I don't think there's anything gay with a jerk in your dick while looking at a woman if your friend's next to you fuck it I gotta agree on that if you think jerking off to a woman is gay then you need to re-evaluate your own sexuality but why do you gotta do it with your buddy there because we're watching the same porno dude that's weird too the thing about it the thing about it is the proximity of the dicks and the awareness of both of you that there's some there's a live dick somewhere right next to you what if we're both under a blanket if you glance at it, if you think about it if you're gay if you're on a separate blanket if you're under the same blanket that's just being gay with each other jerking off is the same one what is wrong with all of you think about the historical context Tom come on first of all if you're double teeming a girl that's basically like masturbating only using a girl as masturbation of tool so are you right there and I wouldn't do that yeah you guys think that devil's three sum is gay I don't know if I I don't think it's gay that's what it's called that's just funny okay but also consider even more apropos is the old nudie picture cinemas they used to have where everyone would go in and peewee herman went and jerked off that's a bunch of strangers and I assume they're not like next to each other I assume they're all like seated in seats they have a little cubicle like the people at the top jizz on the people on the lowest it creates a wave that's called trickle down economics guys what if there's somebody at home who lives in a poor family and they have to share a bedroom with like their brother are they allowed to jerk off while their brother's in the room desperate times call for stealth situations yeah stealth jerking off stealth jerking off is different stealth jerking off is different we've all stealth jerked off when Ben was in the room didn't the question just say you jerk off with your friend in the room okay I mean I'm imagining you both got your dicks out and you're both like yeah we're jacked you're the gay one if your mind went straight to that well I've always said that I'm gay I guess that's why I brought up the whole awareness thing like do they know that I'm doing it or do I know that they're doing it if both of you know that the other is doing it then it's pretty gay what if I'm not looking at his dick I'm looking at the tits on the TV I wouldn't say it's gay it's not gay but it's stupid I wouldn't do it let me ask you this is it gay to sword fight with your dicks is that gay I think it depends on how you do it it's only gay if your intention is to come from it I sort of agree yeah I guess if it's actually just like if a guy grabs your junk and just starts groping you you may in fact get a boner despite being totally heterosexual just from the physical stimulation to the same way getting a boner in order to sword fight with a dude is totally not necessarily gay but if the act excites you and the rubbing of the dicks against each other if that excites you that's gay it can't be just the touching you just said the physical stimulation maybe I said it wrong Ben I got a question for you if physical stimulation is not gay then physical stimulation of two dicks is gay it's not gay if it feels good guys that's right Ben I've got a test for you let's see your girlfriend what's the surprise Ben I'm gonna blindfold you spin she does uh oh it wasn't her she had her brother do it if you come in her brother's mouth and you think it was a chick are you now gay well yes of course not no that's not gay although I am single now because my girlfriend is dead now the whole thing about sexual orientation is that it's a preference if you don't know that it's a guy then it's fine so you just wear a blindfold all the time and then sword fight all you want that's right ok we plumbed the depths of that one I feel like we've learned a lot today I agree you guys are one piece experts has Luffy ever stretched out his dick like a sword and sword fighted people with it in pornography yes well yeah but there was that one chapter where those amazon ladies that's right get ready for this they stretched it there was a scene so Luffy once crash landed on an island of only women he was hurt really bad a bunch of women found him unconscious they brought him to a bath and they started bathing they took off all his clothes and they were like oh my god he's got like a mushroom attached to him we gotta pull this off there was literally chapters of this girl stretching his dick oh it's so stretchy why wouldn't it come off trying to separate his dick from his body he's getting jacked off in canon one piece do they draw pictures of his stretchy dick they don't show it it's off frame yeah they do it because they don't know what a man is yeah they don't know what a dick is it's pretty hot though nonetheless if it was a bunch of amazon men would Luffy be gay yes well not from that because he was unconscious even when he woke up he would become gay immediately you're aware awareness of sexual acts with men is what makes you gay this is way more fun than animal rights we should do a whole episode about what is gay this is way more fun what is gay is a great topic let's come back did you already did that on our social media podcast you faggot we can weigh it on it too the gayest thing is copying someone else's idea so it's relevant that it's only gay if the balls touch that's a pretty good rule that's one theory we got alternative theories gay theory what about if one of your balls touches your other ball is that gay? I'm gay right now there's not a man alive who's not gay as fuck we're all gay then nobody's gay oh god here's our last question that pancake monster asks or at pancake monstay because I guess they couldn't fit the R what PCP member would be the easiest to kidnap I'm gonna say Ben Saint I will email his address to you he'll become the easiest cause we're gonna dox him right now Ben Saint is just like ET instead of Reese's pieces just take garbage and he'll follow and eat it Ben is very predictable if you leave the trail of raisins Ben will follow Ben is very predictable he's very weak minded he is very susceptible to suggestion and trickery I don't think you'll have this trouble I'm just like a deer in the headlights all the time okay that's it that's the end of the questions thanks for listening everybody make sure you send us more next saturday at tpcrasnators on twitter and thanks for listening I'm gonna plug my shit cause I've been streaming lately I've been streaming lately over at saint comics on twitch so if you wanna check that out go fucking follow me there you idiots oh well if you're gonna plug streaming I'm gonna plug streaming cause I've been streaming a lot recently on video games at twitch.tv slash Gibbentake you can go look at that subscribe to monkeyjones at best guy ever wait while I'm here also everyone go check out me and my girlfriend Jackie's side channel there's one video up there it's Ben and Jackie's college fund get it on the ground floor now before we take off and crush you all under our heels yeah I gotta do that you won't regret it at all Nate shrugs uncomfortably you guys should do a comedy skit where she's gonna give you a blow job blindfolded that's a good idea inspired by real events on a real podcast okay we're done thanks for this everybody we'll see you next time bye goodbye