 Cwestiynau'r unig yma yn gweithio'r Cymru yn 2018. Rwy'n meddwl i chi'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'r mwybodol yn cyd-gwed. Mae'n rhaid i gyd yn cymorth gyntaf ar y cyfosig. Fel pwysig, rydyn ni'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'r Cymru, yn cyfosig ar y cyfosig ar Ysgriffau Ysgriffau, ac i'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'r cymorth i'r cyfosig ar y cyfosig, iddyn nhw'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'r cyfosig ar y cyfosig ar y cyfosig, Thank you very much. Agenda item 2 today is a decision on taking business in private. I would ask the committee whether to take agenda item 6 in private and whether the consideration of the report on young people's pathways inquiry in private at future meetings and whether to take consideration of the work programme at the next meeting in private to members' content with us. Thank you very much. I now move to agenda item 3, which is the fourth evidence session in the inquiry into young people's pathways. I warmly welcome to the meeting this morning. Jamie Hepburn MSP, Minister for Business, Fair Work and Skills. Also Hugh McLoone, Deputy Director and Head of Fair Work and Skills. Jonathan Gray, Head of CLD Policy and Post 16 programmes. Mary McIver, Unit Head, Learning Directorate and the Scottish Government. I invite the minister to make some opening remarks and maybe say just in general terms how the development of young workforce is progressing. Thank you, convener. I didn't intend to make too much of a substantive set of opening remarks other than to say I very much welcome the focus that the committee has on the particular inquiry that you are taking forward in terms of young people's pathways, the great interest that you have taken in developing a young workforce. Across the board, there is great support for that as a direction of travel in terms of the progress that this is making. I doubt that we will get into some of the detail there. My own estimation is when I go out and about and go into the school environment, work with the 21 regional groups that we have significant progress is being made, but clearly much more is to be done. I doubt that we will get into that in a few months' time. That's all I have to say. Just now, convener, I should say congratulations on your new role as my first time at the committee since you took the esteemed office. Thank you very much, minister. I'll move to opening questions. I think that Mr McDonald is going to come in first. Good morning, minister. We're halfway through, we're at the halfway point in a seven-year DYW programme that aims to transform the relationship between schools, employers and colleges and the preparedness for young people for the world of work. Are you satisfied with the pace of change that's been achieved so far? If you look at the headline target that we had to reduce the level of youth unemployment by 40 per cent by 2021 from 2014 levels, having achieved that early, of course I'm satisfied with that. In terms of the fact that we now have 21 regional groups covering the length and breadth of Scotland, beginning some innovative work quite different region by region, which is the approach that we wanted to see taken because, of course, each area has its own local requirements, its own local economic needs, different demographics. Having those 21 groups now embedded, all employer-led, beginning to create new relationships between or reaffirming existing relationships between employers and the school environment, that is good progress. If we see the increase in terms of the number of young people attaining vocational qualifications up by 17 per cent in August 2016 compared to August 2015, that has to be welcome. Undoubtedly, as I alluded to in my opening remarks in response to the request from the convener, there is more to be done. Clearly, this is a seven-year strategy, but the culture change that we want to see embedded has to go further than the seven-year period. It has to be embedded longer-term. That is not going to happen overnight. I believe that we have made good progress already in this early phase. In terms of the 21 regional employer groups that you mentioned, it is obviously challenges in trying to hit some of the relevant KPIs such as employing young people direct from school, employing them at a rate for young disabled people and positive destinations for looked-after young people. How important are those employer groups and how are you attracting the right quality and number of employers given that the vast majority of employers in Scotland are SMEs? There is always going to be a challenge. We find that a challenge across the range of activity that we have in place in terms of apprenticeships. For example, often a challenge in engaging small and medium enterprises. It is essential that we do so. In terms of developing a workforce agenda, it is going to be particularly the case in some geographies where small and medium enterprises make up an even bigger share of the profile of companies area by area. We are entrusting our regional groups to take forward that activity. They are the people who are best placed to do that. Indeed, some of the people who are tasked and charged with herring up those groups are themselves involved in working with small and medium enterprises. They are the ones who have the best knowledge in the ground in terms of their own local area to make the appropriate connections and we are entrusting them to get on with that. Again, it will go back to the point that I made. There is progress in that regard. I see that happening on the ground, but there is still more to be done. In terms of the point that you made about the qualities agenda, we have been moving in the right direction. I know that, for example, in the last period, we have seen an increase since the baseline figures were recorded in 2012-13 of 6.7 per cent points in the positive destinations of looked after young people in terms of employment rate for young disabled people. It is in line with disabled people of all ages shockingly low, unacceptably low. Of course, we have set out our ambitions to do much more in tackling the disability employment gap, but it is moving in the right direction. An increase of 8 per cent points compared to the baseline figure of 35.2 per cent back in 2014. We are moving in the right direction. There is positive progress, but again, much more to do. My final point is about that. There are now different pathways that young people can take. One of the table of information that we were provided with shows that there has been progress in encouraging people to look at the options for college or training programmes, etc. How do you reach out to parents who have a huge amount of influence on the options that young people have when they come to decide what they are going to do after school? That is the thorny topic. Fundament is the parity of esteem issue. We have no problem in the main. Obviously, there are still significant issues in terms of the attainment of the poverty-related attainment gap. Although again, that is closing. We see those from the lower income desiles attaining growth and attainment at a faster rate than those in the upper income desiles. In the main, there is no problem in terms of parents recognising and understanding the value of young people going on to tertiary education and higher education in particular. There is still a challenge for us in terms of broadening horizons and getting them to understand that there is just as much value in young people pursuing vocational pathways. I see that often enough in terms of when I go out to speak to modern apprentices and the great value they have taken from the work-based learning that they are engaged in. Many of them will say that their intention was to go to higher education and they have preferred this avenue because they are starting to get a wage more immediately than they would if they went to university. Yes, there is a significant piece of work to be done. Skills Development Scotland is actively engaged across a range of activity to try to ensure that parents are better informed of the options that their children can have in the school environment and just as critically, perhaps more critically, post-school. I met, along with the Deputy First Minister, the chair and the chief executive of Skills Development Scotland a few months ago and we were discussing this very issue. Skills Development Scotland is now actively going out and participating in parents' evenings in a way that they didn't before. There is still an issue of trying to get parents to engage even when that happens, but there is other work under way as well. For example, Skills Development Scotland are in the process of developing a dedicated site for parents to support, better support to their understanding of careers information and guidance. Also, earlier this year, in August, there was the National Action Plan on Parental Involvement Engagement. Family Learning and Learning at Home was launched earlier this year. It's a three-year plan that's been pulled together between the Government and COSLA with input from the National Parent Forum to try to work to this end of ensuring that parents are better informed about the choices that their children can have. I was hoping to ask the minister about equality of opportunity across the country. One of the key concerns for me, certainly representing a rural area, is that the challenges around DYW are different in different regions. To some degree, no matter how hard some of the rural DYW groups work, there is a limited pool of employers and that restricts opportunities ultimately for some young people. What is the Scottish Government doing to ensure that young people, no matter where they live in Scotland, have access to the same opportunities? We are taking a range of different measures in different ways. For example, for modern apprentices we introduced the rural supplement for training providers last year. That was the first time it had been put in place in recognition of the challenges that training providers and people engaged in the modern apprenticeship will face, the additional barriers they face, the additional hurdles they face in rural communities. That's an enhanced payment for providers in recognition of the additional cost. That was a success. In fact, we've broadened the scope, so last year the qualification was determined by local authorities, to the local authorities that we recognise as being most rural. We've expanded that so that it now falls down by definition, by postcode. If it's a remote rural area, defined as a remote rural area, or a remote town, then the training provider is based there and they can qualify for that enhanced payment. Far more training providers, far more people engaged in a modern apprenticeship are benefiting from that. Of course, colleges through the Scottish Funding Council have a formula to allocate extra funding based on rurality as well. Again, we're entrusting our developing young workforce regional groups. I'm sure that Mr Mdell has engaged actively with the developing young workforce regional group in Dumfries and Galloway. I have been hugely impressed by that regional group. All of our regional groups are doing great work, but the work that has been done in Dumfries and Galloway is very innovative. They had a fantastic job sphere that was held in Mr Mdell's constituency at the Crichton campus with children invited from across the entire local authority area. They supported them to come to engage with the array of employers that exist across the area of all sizes. They're also doing innovative stuff such as trying to ensure that they have sectoral groups feeding into their boards so that each sector within the area can have their interests properly represented. Again, that's very much led from a grassroots level in recognition of the people that we've entrusted with taking forward the developing young workforce agenda on the ground to understand what's best available in the area, the challenges that exist in the area, and if there's more we can do, then they can feed that back to us and we can consider it. I thank the minister for that answer. I was at the jobs fair in question and I know he was as well, but we missed each other very conveniently. I was leaving just as you were walking in the door. However, a number of schools weren't able to be present at that event because of transport costs. By the time the DYW group was in the position to offer transport to those schools, it was too late for some of those schools. They felt that the distance to travel to Dumfriesen, the amount of time it would take out of their day, and the level of staffing they had within their schools made that difficult for all young people in the region to attend. I understand that the positive measures have been taken across the board, but are the DYW groups in rural communities getting the same acknowledgement in their funding of the difficulties of delivering some of those measures in rural communities? Is that taken into consideration? Essentially, the way that any group was established as they come forward together, so it's not a top-down model at all, it would be determined by a group of people come together clearly through Rob Woodward, who is the former chief executive of STV, who we have asked to head up our efforts at a national level in terms of employer engagement with the groups. He was essentially reaching out to people, particularly in areas where it was proving difficult to get groups established and had that conversation with Mr Scott. I'm very pleased to see that we've got a very good and active group in his. The way that it works is that those people would come together and they would bring forward a proposition to the national group. If they thought that it was a good proposition, that would take account of the costs that they would forecast that would be involved in taking forward their activity. They would then come to myself to sign off on any proposition that they think is a good one. Again, that comes down to the group to take forward what they think they require. That said, of course, this is an experience of being informed by what happens on a practical basis. If a particular group finds that there is an impediment to a certain form of activity, we will consider it. Going back to Mr Scott's constituency, I had a very useful meeting with the chair, to show how different his group can be. There are three co-chairs in Shetland. I met one of the co-chairs there, who was raising the issue of additional costs from getting from an island community for chairs to participate in round-table meetings with other chairs. I've undertaken to take that way and consider it. If the issues are raised, we will consider them. I suppose that the other point, not that I want to be top-down and instructive on those matters, my expectation is that the recent Galloway's efforts, in spite of being your constituency, I wouldn't be entirely located in the Frees. Indeed, I know their undertaking activity across the entirety of the local authority area. Thank you for that. The final question that I wanted to ask was whether or not you felt that the balance was right between the needs of employers and the needs of young people, because there's another concern that's come up locally, where parents and teachers feel that the interests of employers, although they're very positive they're taking part in the DIY group, are doing a great job at building that engagement, but some employers locally who struggle to find young people willing to work, willing to stay in the region and work, the process ends up motivating bright young people who have the potential and have ideas to do other things, to stay locally, exactly for the reason that you were talking about before, where they see an incentive to earn money quickly, rather than considering all the career options that are available to them. Do you think that we've got that balance right? I think that's the fundamental point, so it's about trying to make sure that they are as informed as possible about the opportunity to exist on their doorstep. Now, it's always going to be the case that some young people will choose for whatever reason to... and it doesn't just happen, I know it's a particularly acute issue in rural communities, I wouldn't shy away from that at all, but also what happens in urban communities, young people may choose to move elsewhere for a variety of reasons, because that's just what they want to do. We're never going to be able to mitigate it against that entirely. What we can do though is try and deal with the issue of whether young people feel they have no option to move away, where actually there might be options available to them. This is a process of ensuring that employers can engage with the school environment in an appropriate fashion, not only to help better shape the curriculum so that young people can make decisions about the subjects they may want to study to get them into particular career pathways, but also sometimes just as simple as making young people aware that they are an employer on their doorstep. I've been quite surprised to go to communities where there's been an employer that's well established for a long time, could be employing quite a substantial number of people, and the young person will invariably they'll probably be aware that they're there, but they just won't have any idea what they do. If they don't have any idea what they do, how can they know whether it's something that they want to engage in? So again, that sputes of the need to have that type of engagement. The balance of interest, I don't see any conflict between the interests of the employers engaging in this and the interests of young people. Indeed, it's a virtuous cycle. It's an employer's enlightened self-interest, is the way I would describe it, to be engaged in this agenda. It's about then being able to give something back to young people in their community to help them with their education, so if through offering work experience opportunities, for example, they identify young person who is adept at and skilled and keen and interested in working in their particular company or business, they might then end up offering them a job opportunity. So I don't see any inherent tension between the interests. I think as we're just making sure that balance is correct, and I think broadly we've got that right. Thank you. Scott, you want it in? Ask just a couple of supplementaries. First I apologise to Mr Hepburn for not being in Shetland when he was there. It was anfield with my son, Mr Hepburn, and you'll understand the pressures that occasionally fathers have come under to take one sometime. Of course they won. It was worth it. Indeed. But I do apologise for not being present. Just related to Oliver Mundell's questions, two supplementaries on that line of thought. The first is both on work experience, because I'm sure when you were in Shetland it may have been reflected to you that while young people are entitled to one week's work experience in a senior phase, a lot of parental suggestion, near pressure, is for earlier work experience in the earlier stages of secondary school to help young people in the way in which you've just been describing. I wonder if you've given any thought, or the Government's given any thought, on how best to encourage more and earlier work experience opportunities for young people in the earlier phases of secondary school? I mean that. I think, again, that's got to be determined. Again, we can't be top down and tell each school what they've got to do. If a young person identifies an opportunity and a headteacher in his or her school feels that's something that they can support, I would absolutely encourage that to happen. If you're talking about on a systemic basis, clearly we seek to be informed by what we're putting in place here. I think it is appropriate that we have focused the work experience element, particularly because we want it to be meaningful work experience, particularly if we're talking about the Royal Art Foundation apprenticeships. I think that it's appropriate to have that largely focused at the senior phase of secondary school. That's not to say that if there are opportunities for earlier work experience that shouldn't be explored, that shouldn't be supported. Also, beyond just the provision of work experience, we should be ensuring that even in advance of secondary school, actually, within the primary school environment, for example, that they are engaged in making young people better aware of the world of work, the opportunities that exist for them to be actively engaged in thinking about how their learning can sit better with the world of work. There is, through developing the young workforce, a range of activity taking place early in the school experience, which has some specific and localised examples in Fife, Delgety Bay primary is engaged in thinking about creating education as an integral part of their school improvement planning. Busby primary in East Renfrewshire has developed a skills academy. Bornhill primary in Weston Bartonshire is engaged in thinking about enterprise and entrepreneurship. There are other examples of employment engagement at that stage. There has got to be a balance struck between that type of activity and what I think we would term a different experience as being a work experience. To take all that, and it's entirely fair. The point that I was seeking to drive at was young people who were probably going to leave at S4 or who do leave at S4 and what they have had to assist them in the choices they make. I take all that you say about the senior phase and what you say about primary school, that's fine. The specific point is about those S4 leavers. Can we do more for those young people at an earlier stage in school? I take your point about top-down. It's for the local delivery groups to do some work on, but do you have a view on that? Yes, I would agree. I think we can. That's a fundamental part of the ethos of developing young workforce in terms of the direction of travel taking careers information and guidance. Also, in recognition of the point that Mr Scott has made, we're now starting to look at how we deliver foundation apprenticeships, for example. When we first introduced them, they were very rigidly a two-year approach. We're now starting to explore whether or not actually we should maybe be a bit more flexible. For that very reason, because if a young person starts in S4 and decides to leave at the end of fourth year, they're not going to have completed that and got a qualification. I'd much rather that they might be able to do a year's form of workforce experience, get some form of qualification, and if they decide to stay on, they can continue to proceed to get a further qualification in fifth year. If they don't, then at least they've got some form of qualification as the end of the world of work. Again, with aptitude and model, it could be that the employer says that person's good, let's give them a modern apprenticeship. Indeed, I think the success of the foundation apprenticeship programme we put in place... Well, not solely we judged on this because we also want universities to recognise that there's a qualification for entrance to university, but ultimately it can be judged by its success and the number of young people engaged in a foundation apprenticeship who move on to a modern apprenticeship. Now, we're probably not quite there yet, but that's where I want to stand up. Thank you. Ms Fee. Good morning, minister. It's just a follow-up question on foundation apprenticeships. Can you give us a bit of detail about how the targets for foundation apprenticeships were reached? I think they have been reached on the basis of recognising that we couldn't just go on overnight and say that thousands of these are going to be delivered. So it's been a process of growth. Now, if you look at the overall trajectory of foundation apprenticeships over the last few years, we have seen that growth. So last year there were some 1200 or so provided the year before that, 1245 in the last year's cohort, which continues this year on the basis that I've laid out to Mr Scott. They are currently a two-year programme. The year before that there were 346. So it's very much on, and before that there were some forerunners to try and test better and see if it's an approach that would work. That's designed on the basis of, essentially, you're designing a new model of delivery of work-based learning in the school environment in a way that schools aren't used to. And also, frankly, Skills Development Scotland aren't that used to delivering that type of activity with schools. So you've got two different cultures trying to learn from one another if I can perfectly candid with you. So to have gone in and said, ultimately I want us to get the place whereby it's embedded and recognised just a normal part of the school offering whereby no means anywhere close to being there. If we tried to do that from day one, it just wouldn't have been possible. So it's very much predicated on steady and onward growth to get into the final point where I would like us to be that it is just a recognised part of the school experience. Again, that would help with the point that Mr McDonald has made about parity of esteem. That is a place whereby foundation apprenticeships are embedded within the school environment, recognises just the normal part of school delivery, then I think we'll break down a lot of these barriers, these issues whereby parents consider that the pursuit of academic education is superior to that of vocational education. To be fair to parents right now, if you've just sent your kid and the child as well, you're probably not that aware of what foundation apprenticeship is, what is it? So it's going to take a while for that to be recognised as just an inherent part of our school offering and when we get to that stage I think we'll have a lot less of this this concern about parity of esteem. When you say it's going to take a while and schools aren't used to foundation apprenticeships College of Scotland and the Chamber of Commerce have said that the Ten Foundation leads to confused perceptions there's been difficulties in recruitment due to poor promotion what is the Government doing to tackle that? At the beginning of last year Government pledged 3000 foundation level apprenticeships and at the end of last year that figure was reduced to 2600 was that figure reduced because of the confusion around perceptions of what they actually were or was there another reason those figures were reduced? I'll not apologise for setting out an ambitious trajectory what we need to do constantly is review where we are informed by practical experience so given that we have had as I say 1245 starts I think the ambition of up to 2600 was a stretching one for us this year I'll not apologise for that because I want to see us continue on that growth trajectory in terms of the point that you make around the language how we define it as a foundation apprenticeship I'm not hung up on the terminology I would observe that that was the name that was recommended by the report that Ian Wood took forward but if there's a better name for it then I'm willing to consider what it might be that said I don't want us to go through the constant process of reinvention because if you get to a certain stage where people start to understand something do we want to change it? Now to be fair we may be early enough that we can do that and I recognise the point that you make at a certain generation who went through standard grades there was such a thing as a foundation standard grade and there were maybe preconceived notions about the value of that form of study which I won't get into right now but that could be filtering through to the perception of what a foundation apprenticeship might be so I'm all ears if anyone around this table has a better name for it then I'm willing to hear it The target of 5,000 foundation apprenticeships for next year are you confident that you'll meet that? We will obviously see how many people have started and of course it's up to I think it's a point that we should make it's up to this number of starts it ultimately has a demand led programme so we need to see how many people take up the opportunities this year and we'll see where we are next year but right now we're working towards If the figure of 5,000 isn't a target but it's something that you're working towards if you don't meet the 5,000 to wherever you peak that will then become your target So is your target 5,000? It's to provide up to 5,000 places I want to see as many of them taken up but of course we need to make our decisions based on practical experience as well This is a learning process and I want to emphasise again that the the new understanding has to be between different forms of delivery models so we've tasked Skills Development Scotland are tasked with rolling out foundation apprentices they're used to delivering in a certain fashion schools are used to delivering in a certain fashion so we're still working to try and make sure that those cultures that are working are brought closer together I've got a 5,000 as an aspiration to a degree it's flexible It's not about flexibility it's about trying to offer as many opportunities as possible and then encouraging as many people to take those opportunities Now that goes back to the point that I didn't properly answer in your first question about promoting those opportunities There probably is more we could be doing to promote those opportunities Again that's something we are tasking Skills Development Scotland with There's inevitably a role for us as a Government coosla engaging with their member constituent local authorities and there's also a significant role for our 21 developing young workforce regional groups especially in encouraging employers to take part We can only offer those opportunities if we have employers willing to provide those opportunities We can go out with me put the contracts in place with the training provision that's the sort of straightforward part of it The more difficult task is getting employers to engage, now they are doing so we need more to do so and then thereafter getting young people to engage with the opportunity Because SDS last week when I asked this question they are confident that 5,000 foundation apprenticeships will be delivered It sounds as if they are more confident than Government if your target is up to but they were quite confident last week that they would be delivering 5,000 opportunities next year I'm always pleased and heartened to hear about the confidence of Scottish Government agencies in delivering the programmes that we trust them with Just following on from that slightly you've talked about the promotion of the foundation apprenticeships and what you're doing to promote them and how you're trying to get the balance right Do you think schools are doing enough to promote them because there was some concern that they were undermining the motivation in some aspects and some of them may be looking towards their figures as far as university figures go Do you think that schools are fully on board with this to get them embedded into the system? It will be mixed if I can be candid with you it will be patchy because for two reasons one the opportunities are searched they are now available in every local authority area they are available and if I remember correctly virtually all of Scotland secondary schools but not every framework is available across every local authority area not every framework is available in every school environment so that's why it's so important for us to continue to grow the offering as we grow the offerings we grow the number of opportunities then I think schools start to see actually this is a real opportunity for people to take up that's said where we are offering them they are being pursued by an increasing number of young people so that says to me that schools are doing two things they are letting young people know about it and even more importantly they're facilitating their participation through flexibility and timetabling which is no small undertaking for a school I recognise that but they are doing that to allow young people to take part there's more that every part of the system can be doing to promote them and what plans or progress do you have to measure how this is growing and the success of the system is there a way you're capturing data about how many schools are the uptake of it and apprenticeships yes we can measure all that so if the committee is interested we can provide detail of what's been available in the pathfinder projects and the two intakes the two cohorts of intakes that we've had thus far and I was asked this question by I think it was Ian Gray in the chamber while we make information public available on participation in foundation apprenticeships going forward of course will so it will all be publicly available because I'm interested in the when you have that information and the technical differences in my local authority area the schools are high achieving and pride themselves on the number of university entrants that they've got so I'd be interested to find out what the differences are throughout the country or within each local authority area on that and how close are we to getting any sense of that or any figures they will differ but we can break it down by local authority area on that very readily it is it will only be sort of raw statistical data so trying to get underneath what's driving that requires a wider piece of work I wouldn't want to draw too many conclusions at this stage because as I say we are still at the stage of growing the number of them so I've been pleased with the growth we've seen to go from 346 starts two years ago to 1245 last year I think any reasonable person will say well that's substantial growth in terms of your starting point that said to try and draw wider conclusions from 1245 starts I think would not be the most informative thing to do I think the critical thing for us right now is to get out there and to promote foundation apprenticeships and vocational learning in its wider sense is something that is of significant value for each school environment to to to participate in and even for Ms Mackay represents the constitution next door to mine so obviously she knows her area much better than I do but I'm aware of her area and yeah there are obviously schools that are doing significantly well in terms of academic attainment but don't tell me that there isn't aren't kids that are being left behind in those schools there are and we need to make sure that they are supported as well and we need to make sure they are supported through things like attainment fund, pupil equity fund so that they can have better academic attainment and also so that they can have positive outcomes in the labour markets that speaks to the necessity of ensuring that we have a good vocational offering as well although again that should be just targeted to those who might not have good academic attainment because I've seen enough young people out there who have now got five A's at their highest that's significantly better than I did at school because they've decided that it's a good opportunity for them to go on to do a modern apprenticeship and that's a legitimate option for them to pursue so the way I look at it ultimately convener is about ensuring that young people are as informed as possible of all the options they have before them can make informed decisions and explicitly recognise that each of those options are as valid as the next OK, thank you Mr Greer You might be aware the Education Scotland review of personal social education which came as a result of an inquiry that this committee undertook has published its phase 2 results and what they found was that the case load of a guidance teacher in Scotland varies between about 75 and 280 young people I think the average is around 200 Given the importance of guidance teachers in successfully implementing this agenda do you think that a guidance teacher with a case load of between 200 and 280 can provide the level of one to one support that young people require? I think we should be clear I want all teachers starting with in a specific school environment head teacher I would say downwards that's probably not the right way to describe it all teachers within each school environment through the leadership of their head teacher to embrace the developing the young workforce agenda I think we're starting to see that I think we should be clear though yes, our guidance teachers play a critical role in supporting young people we are not discharging the responsibility for delivery of developing the young workforce specifically in guidance teachers so it's for each head teacher to identify it's described a senior resource within their school environment to take forward the developing young workforce agenda that may or may not be a guidance teacher I would rather suspect I say boldly without having the evidence in front of me that it won't be guidance teachers in the main who are discharged with us although of course guidance teachers are invariably also subject matter teachers as well so to be clear it's not guidance teachers we are definitely tasked with taking this agenda forward there is also there has been a question about can we better support individual school schools to roll out the developing young workforce agenda with additional support so one of the things we're about to pilot a number of schools in the Glasgow area is a new member of staff who will not probably be a member of teaching staff to be charged with rolling out and taking forward developing young workforce within their specific school environment so I hope that that provides reassurance yes, I would recognise that guidance teachers to varying degrees in different schools depending on the school environment caseload is probably not the right term but I can't think of a better term significant caseload significant at the support of me and ultimately to a greater or lesser degree within school but we are not seeking to add the burden of the specific delivery of developing young workforce entirely on the shoulders of guidance teachers I accept that absolute minister it's not entirely the responsibility but given the guidance teacher has the primary responsibility for one-to-one support of the young people who are and caseload would be a term that the association guidance teachers would use so it's appropriate terminology but to move to SDS careers advisers we've as a committee very consistently not just in the course of this inquiry but over the last number of years heard substantial amounts of anecdotal evidence from young people about where the choice available to them is perhaps not really a choice that nominally a school might offer more options for their future pathways than they had done previously but on an individual level the decision has already been made for that young person and they feel that other people have made that for them when Skills Development Scotland ran last week I was asking them about this and I was wondering what your thoughts are on where a careers adviser sees that happening in a school, where they see that young people are not being given the individual choice that they should what role would you expect the careers adviser to take there, what level of engagement would you expect them to have with the school to address that situation? I would expect them primarily to engage with the young person to offer them the information advice and guidance that they would require to make an informed decision I would absolutely concede I've heard the same point made young people do often feel that they're not given the fullest information that they might require to make decisions about subject choice that will allow them to proceed through school, get the qualifications they require to move on to a career of their choice or they're just not made aware of the availability of different career options for them so I hear that too and that was a huge part of the reason why we tasked Ian Wood and the commission to come up with the developing young workforce recommendations and that's a critical part of developing the young workforce strategy you'd ultimately have to leave it to the individual judgment of a careers adviser as to how they would approach that matter equally they can't be imposing anything on a young person as well it fundamentally goes back to the culture of our educational environments about ensuring that parents, teachers and young people are all aware of the variety of options that they are out there and the variety of pathways that there are and just as the developing the young workforce group in Glasgow said there is no wrong path make it very clear early on that each of the options available is of equivalent value to the next Your right minister that the adviser's primary responsibility is to the individual young people if they have observed a structural or a cultural problem within a school like this that's something that they should be taking up with the management of the school or with the local authority is this a discussion that they should be engaging staffing I hope that any school environment is structured in a way that any person who is working there should be able to raise issues of concern with the senior management team I just want to say this issue about entitlement of young people in terms of careers advice what proportion of young people can expect one to one support from careers advisers My memory of that is that it should be available to all young people what we were told last week that might be something you might want to come back to us on because clearly because we were concerned I was concerned that there was a conflation between one to one and face to face Do you have a definition of what face to face careers advice is? My definition of face to face would be as we are right now sitting not necessarily across the table from one another but speaking to each other face to face although in some environments I would recognise going back to the points that have been raised about the challenges of rurality that might not be possible Is there a limit in the number of young people in the room when you are having a face to face support from a careers adviser? Can't answer that question Would you accept that it's relevant that if the careers service is saying we offer face to face and it turns out it's one occasion with 30 other people in the room that would be literally meaningless in terms of supporting young persons ability to make decisions? I think it would rather depend so actually I had the pleasure of going to North Berwick High School where they have a careers adviser in there that essentially takes a more or less like a class offering careers guidance and my estimation of that approach was it was working there I suppose the fundamental point is and maybe this is where I was slightly mistaken in terms of the way I answered your first question is that every young person who wants to request face to face meetings should be entitled to be able to get that but no, I mean if that was the only if it precluded the opportunity for a young person to get that type of approach and it was only offered as a room of 30 people then that probably would not be that effective That's something that you'd be willing to look at from anything else if it's one to one on the basis that you ask for it my view would be that those perhaps who most need it are least likely to ask and least likely to be in a position to ask and you accept that this may actually reinforce inequalities in terms of awareness about what options are available I think that that would be it would be helpful to us to know what you think an entitlement to one to one consultation whether that's the same as what was advised us last week and in terms to face to face clearly somebody coming in and saying giving a presentation on X, Y and Z is quite different from what the implication of face to face is which is there is an engagement as a dialogue about what options are available to you and I suppose in responding to this would you accept that the challenge is to deliver a career advice service to individuals that meet their individual abilities in the context of big numbers of young people yes, that's the fundamental point you make at the end is what we should have as an offering for our careers information and guidance we've already committed through a programme for government to have a review of careers information so that's something that we're doing we're committed to doing specific points that you've raised I'm very happy to take them on board I suppose I'd want some of it to be evidenced although I would agree with the perspective that we would need to make sure that the young people who needed the information advice most felt confident enough to ask for it of course that should involve them being reminded that they're entitled to ask for it and if that isn't happening then we need to look at that and we need to ensure that our systems work so that young people I've spoken several times now about making sure that young people are as informed as possible and ultimately this has to be part of the information that's related to them that they're entitled to this form of guidance share my concern then that the phrase that was used last week on face to face actually masks the challenge to the careers advice service because it can capture such a an event where there's one advisor and up to maybe 30 young people I think I would need to see the comment before I draw any conclusions as to whether I shared your concern I suppose I would make the point again that I don't think it's necessarily inappropriate for a group of young people to be brought together to have some form of careers information and guidance if that was the only form that would fail to them then yes that would be a concern on to look at the extent to which for some young people that is the only option they have given that the one to one provision is from what we heard last week different it's not universal what I can undertake to do is see what information and evidence we have to see if there is a systemic problem of that nature that that is the case but we can certainly have a look at it Dr Allan obviously our recurring theme today has been about parity of esteem and what developing young workforce had to say about encouraging a better understanding of options other than university I was keen to know whether you felt there was any measurable data or even anecdote that would suggest that young people's own experience of this reflects that ideal in their school experience have we anything to go on that would suggest that the attitudes are improving in terms of the amount of information that is provided about non-university options or when will that be measurable or is it like the French Revolution too early to tell I've not drawn my own conclusions in the French Revolution yet either Dr Allan certainly the evidence in terms of the numbers is the proportion of young people who are utilising college-based study in the senior phase of the school environment would testify that there is growth there and the growth in foundation apprenticeships would testify that more young people are becoming aware of the opportunity of work-based vocational learning so we can look at that in terms of the statistical information we have in terms of the awareness of the opportunities that's a harder thing to measure but I would go back to Mr Greer say that I too frequently hear young people saying that they haven't been made aware of all of the options but young people have actually not long come out of the school system and are at the next phase of their lives so the challenge for us is probably to ensure that we keep engaging with young people which we are doing through the 15-24 learner journey review in terms of the work that we undertook thus far we worked with Young Scot to ward that end and to engage with Youth Link to ensure that they continue to inform the work that we take forward through the 15-24 learner journey review and one of the other things again to demonstrate that we learn from practical experience that one of the things that Rob Woodward actually raised with me is perhaps we should be trying to ensure that there's at least one young person on each of the regional groups so that we can probably better understand the lived experience of young people in relation to the information and advice that they've offered actually is but to be candid right now yes I will hear young people say that they haven't been properly or fully informed of the opportunities that they have Again this may be related to that it may be difficult to measure too but I just wonder a number of people here today I think yourself included to the reality of parental attitudes and sometimes parental pressures around choices that young people make Is there anything you feel that is being done or can be done to try and in a sense educate parents as one of the biggest pressures on young people who are making these decisions to encourage parents to see these things in the same way and to have an idea of parity of esteem Well I would go back to excuse me I would go back to the answer that I gave earlier in relation to the significant body of work that SDS engaged in in terms of ensuring that parents are better aware of the opportunities that young people have through careers information and guidance so that work is happening and it will continue I suppose that finally the counter argument that you like to that and again you may have alluded to this but there are still young people who have parental pressure from the opposite direction obviously people who may be the first person in their family to think about going on to college or university who face not a lack of parental support but parents who find that to be a high risk option for various reasons who have an obstacle to overcome I take it from what you're saying to the site of the pressures that exist from the opposite direction is there anything that you're doing to try and make sure that doesn't happen? Absolutely Partly through the developing young workforce activity in terms of ensuring that young people are aware of all the options they have but clearly that's a critical element of the widening access work that I'm not leading on but the committee will be aware of in terms of access to higher education so, yes, that firmly remains in the radar I'd like to go back to something that you said at the start with regard to SDS now attending parents evenings and in your response to Alasdair Allan you also spoke about engaging parents and I note that the national parents forum submission talks about expectations on parents but obviously government can't enforce parents to engage if they don't want to engage they might not engage because what parents have control over is the consistency of offer across the country so, in a line of questioning to SDS last week I asked about what their average expectation might be on careers advisers in terms of how many hours they were spending in school do you have an understanding of that nationally is that data available to you in terms of an average careers officer a careers guidance officer in terms of what their engagement level is with schools? I don't have it before me now I can't say with a hundred percent certainty it does exist but we can certainly commit to looking at that and seeing what information there is I understand that SDS have a number of hubs that are available nationally the expectation from SDS is that half a day is spent in those hubs would your expectation be at government level that these officers are out and about in schools more regularly than they are in these hubs? Not necessarily because there is also the hubs that exist are of high quality and also of great value in terms of people's ability to not just young people incidentally of a person's ability to come in off the street and see some form of information and guidance there as well so I do think we have to strike the right balance we will always be willing to look and see whether that has been struck but I think it's an entirely appropriate thing for them also to base some of their activities at hubs because good work is done from there as well so I was able to go to I've been able to go to a number but I remember being at the hub that SDS operate in Inverness where they were able to bring a number of young people out the school environment to there for some practical hands on information advice and employers can come in there with young people too so there's I believe also a role for that type of activity I'd like to move on a wee bit to look at gender segregation which came up again last week and we considered with SDS I suppose in terms of subject uptake which is still a pressing concern and with regard to apprenticeships as well are you able to tell us a little bit about the Government's work around tackling gender segregation on that issue? Yes this is an issue of significant concern to us and that's we're taking a range of activity to try because ultimately it manifests itself negatively in a variety of ways most obviously in terms of the gender pay gap and that's the clear manifestation of the segregation by gender we see and subject choice and occupational choice or at least occupational outcomes because it isn't always necessarily by choice it's people picking careers around their wider life circumstances so yes we're trying to do what we can in terms of the STEM strategy to make sure that we're engaging with young people at an early age so that more young girls can be aware of the value of studying STEM subjects there's activity under way there and the STEM strategy which my colleague Richard Lochhead will lead on it was taken forward by Shirley-Anne Somerville when she occupied the the role of minister for further education, higher education and science he will be taking that forward now the STEM strategy continues to be rolled out and in terms of apprenticeships there is worked through the qualities action plan that skills in Scotland are working towards I should say we are inclined to think of that and I think we should primarily think of this as trying to encourage more women into areas like STEM STEM primarily but of course we also must be doing more to encourage more men into what are viewed as traditionally female sectors such as early years, learning and childcare there are a host of good reasons to do that not least because we are significantly ramping up significantly more people so we shouldn't be overlooking half of the population in doing so there as well so this is an important role, activity is under way and we will continue to take it forward just lastly on that gender segregation in schools I don't know if you can answer this point but does the Government have a view with regard to gender balancing classes in schools so for example could it be, it is still the case that you could have a class of physics students at national 5 level where there is only one girl for example does the Government have a view on that and issuing guidance to schools to stop that from happening no I don't think we do I don't think we could I don't know how that would work on a practical level I think it's far more important that we undertake the activity I've set out to encourage more young women to study subjects like physics now that said there is probably more that could be done to support young women who may find themselves in such a circumstance and I'm aware of certainly probably not at a school level so much but at a higher education level there's been networks formed of women studying in fact that is physics so that they can engage with one another even if they're not necessarily at the same institution but I'm not convinced that taking that type of approach would necessarily be one that would be effective Ms Vee, you wanted to come in on care experience Thank you, convener I wanted to ask the minister about support that's available for care experience young people and again it's a question that I raised with panel last week the minister will be aware that quite often care experience young people have quite complex needs and the percentage of care experience young people who reach positive destinations is quite low and it's increased by less than 2% so what specific support is available specifically for care experienced young people, what support is there to help and support them in terms of the proportion of young people with experience of care in a positive destination I mentioned it earlier I don't have it to hand now but I think it's increased by more than 2% but I don't underestimate the scale of the challenge it's somewhere roughly around I think 20 percentage points lower than the population as a whole that's clearly, totally and utterly unacceptable because again it manifests itself in terms of poor outcomes not just in the labour market but in life in its wider sense for young people with experience of care one of the things that when the Deputy First Minister is leading one he is trying to make sure that all government policy is informed by being aware of adverse childhood experiences particularly discharging his responsibility for the education and skill system and in that regard he held a very excuse me a very compelling conference at Bellaw Houston Academy in Glasgow a number of months ago which I attended all education ministers attended and a number of other cabinet secretaries and ministers attended to discuss how we can ensure that we are better aware of adverse childhood experiences and the experience of care being uppermost amongst them because if you're care experienced invariably there are other reasons for that so you have had a number of adverse childhood experiences in terms of support that we can provide of course we will continue to determine what we can do one of the things that I have done is for example in modern apprenticeships I have ensured that people with experience of care can get the highest level or qualify for the highest level of payment for an employer for their training for the training provider up to the age of 29 across all frameworks that's not the case for every person entering a modern apprenticeship frameworks so that's one practical in which we're trying to encourage employers to take on more people with experience of care there's also work under way I don't have the full details but we could get that in terms of how we can better support young people with care experience through the tertiary education system as well so we are alert to this agenda we're aware that we still have some distance to go there is also a wider body of work being taken forward at the First Minister's request looking at how we can better support people with experience of the care system across all areas of Government and again we can provide more details to the committee of that work as well I mean further information on any initiatives that are currently available would be really useful because it comes back to a point that Ms Lamont raised earlier about careers advice quite often the lack of availability of one-to-one maybe something that initially disadvantages care experience young people they come from a background where they may not be as confident they may need that additional support they may be less likely to come forward and identify so all of these things should be in place and the scheme that you talked about in relation to apprenticeships is welcome but something like that should be in place to support care experience children whatever destination they choose to go into STS launched its new corporate parent plan earlier this year it's setting out a number of areas of activity there should be an enhanced offer careers offer for young people with care experience by STS in terms of craze information and guidance but we are undertaking a range of other and of course young people generally who are at risk of disengaging or disengagement should be getting case managed by skills well in Scotland so they should be supported through the system we have in place already in terms of other specific forms of activity in Glasgow who are supporting young people with experience care they are a very impressive organisation led by a man named Ian McRitchie who would be well worth the committee actually contacting because he has taken forward a very impressive programme doing fantastic work supporting young people with experience of care system and achieve very positive outcomes for them so that's work we are beginning to support also working with Who Cares in Scotland in terms of trying to offer work placement opportunities as well so there is work under way there is activity happening inevitably there are more we can do and we will always seek to do what we can to support people who have been in the care system who after all we should be what should be uppermost in our minds is what we have a fundamental responsibility to because at some stage in their life it could be for a quite substantial part of their life that the state was discharged with responsibility for caring for them because I asked the questions specifically to SDS last week and they spoke about assessments and needs based matrices but were unable to give me an example of anything that they did that was specifically targeted at care experience young people so I'm grateful for the information that the ministers been able to give me today but they couldn't because I've just been able to so Thank you Can I just go back to the DIY W experience and just ask you what is the Scottish Government doing really to make it easier for business to actually support work experience and I'm thinking really in particular if you think of professions like medicine etc how is the Government helping the more disadvantaged to get work experience in these professions what can the government do? That would go back but we're dealing with that in a variety of ways so there is a few in Glasgow for example the city council runs a mentoring scheme and the Government is an active participant in that and is offered and they pair up with a specific school so I'm just going to ask you it's John Paul academy John Paul academy in Somerton that we support so yes the public sector can absolutely be playing a role in the national health service could be although of course we need to be cognisant that they are obviously very busy so we need to facilitate as much employment as possible with young people, with schools and that's something we have asked developing young workforce regional groups to do now if there's any particular impaired barrier identified then that's something we want to hear about and something we want to try and bring down because we want to ensure that employers across the board, across all sectors are part of this agenda okay thank you and how would you ensure that really best practice would be replicated across all local authorities what Rob Woodward who I mentioned earlier does is he brings together all of the chairs of the regional groups together on a regular basis he also brings together all of those who are employed by the regional groups as the development leads they have different titles but essentially they are tasked with developing the offer within their particular region who bring them all together and they have dialogue to learn from one another what they're doing, what's working well what's not working so well and they can link up and learn from one another so that is something that's written through our system we also have the Development Young Workforce National Advisory Group which is jointly chaired by Deputy First Minister and Stephen McCabe Councillor Stephen McCabe from Inverclyde Council who leads on education young people for COSLA they jointly chair that I sit on that group as well and they will also be looking to hear what has been effective and can try and advise on what our offer at a national level should be Thank you Following on from that question Minister with the regional operation of developing young workforce obviously the regional opportunities can be quite different across Scotland if we're talking about oil and gas in the north-east or in some of the ffintech industries in Edinburgh for instance that maybe aren't available to the other regions I'm thinking about the development of the fourth industrial revolution and how automation will change practically every area of our lives from care manufacturing and in all of these areas and I just wondered if there had been any work to ensure that we weren't repeating a regional disadvantage for people and how we were getting information about opportunities elsewhere in Scotland to areas where particularly there were problems I know that it's difficult because there is an element of work experience and that's a geographic element to this but how do we make sure that the opportunities for young people that are rid of all the opportunities across Scotland Fundamentally I'll go back to the information and guidance that they are provided hopefully as early as possible I mean there is an inherent tension I do accept we've got to get the balance right but fundamentally developing the young workforce is delivered on the ground regionally and it is designed to make sure that young people are aware of what's happening locally but also to give them experience on a sector by sector basis so they could acquire skills with a local employer that's transferable to an employer elsewhere so we need to try and strike that balance because you will be aware and some members around the table will be more aware than the others because they represent these very communities that there is a common concern in our remote and rural communities that young people have to have to leave to get employment opportunities elsewhere sometimes that's true but from what I am now encountering sometimes that's a perception more than a reality there are opportunities in those communities that young people aren't always availing themselves of so we need to make sure that they are aware of those opportunities to sustain and help, support local employers, local economies to try and ensure that young people don't feel they have to leave a particular area but equally, yes, they must be aware that there is a wider world there and if they want to go elsewhere then they should have that opportunity too On that point, I very much agree with what you are saying there are about the two realities of, I don't like the word remote but remote in island communities one is that the lack of opportunities sometimes but sometimes as you said the lack of awareness of what the jobs are I wonder if you could comment on a situation that may be common in other island communities as well but if you are a young person who is thinking about coming back from university to an island community certainly in the western isles there is no list of the available jobs in the western isles anywhere obvious for anyone to go to is there anything more that can be done at a practical level simply to make people aware of a list of vacant jobs Probably Skills Development Scotland will have a role in that they need to be up Scottish Enterprise or Dr Allan's case and Mr Scott's case Highlands and Islands Enterprise want to use their Labour Market Intelligence to know what is available they should be working with the raft of Count Managed Companies to know what is becoming available when they can work with Skills Development Scotland to ensure that they can help supply the labour to fill those opportunities and clearly the work that we are doing through the Skills Enterprise agencies review and now the work that is emanated from that can have a role to play so if there is more that can be done we will be willing to listen to that but certainly my hope would be that that would be happening right now there should be no impediment to it anyway Thank you Mr Scott, did you want to come in finally on the resourcing? Can I just ask a few questions to the Minister on your letter to the Committee on the 20th of September which looked at the funding streams under the 1819 budget and if I get this right there are seven different funding streams coming to £12 million or so and would I also be fair in saying that there's also potentially ESF funding that local authorities and other groups will be applying to and one or two other things as well in other words is the landscape too messy does this need to be you may have got this question when you're in Shetland here in terms of no matter how good the regional developing work force group is and the local authority there's a heck of a lot going on here some of it's bid funding some of it's formula funding some of it's administered by SDS which means a huge amount of bureaucracy do you think there's a bit of a chance to coin Dr Allen to take the guillotine to some of this? I think it was part of phrasing Dr Allen but I'm always willing to wind up Dr Allen as well Mr Scott this was actually not only was it I can't actually recall it was a question that came up in Shetland if truth be told but it was certainly a question that came up at the economy jobs and field work committee yesterday when I was giving evidence about employability programmes I think it manifests itself there actually more than in the particular landscape that we operate for within the school environment through developing your workforce but certainly through our employability programmes it can be a bit of a confused landscape now that's not to say that any individual element of it isn't doing good things in fact I cannot think of any element that I've encountered that I thought well that was a waste of time they're all doing good and valuable work at how coherent it might be because well I don't think it's up for question I think it needs to be more coherent and that's why we've undertaken the no one left behind agenda in terms of reviewing the various employability initiatives which will not exclusively be for young people but some of them are geared towards young people to make sure that there is reduced duplication and fundamentally actually to make sure there's greater awareness of what each offering is one of the big challenges I have and I've set this out yesterday is that a lot of in fact the landscape delivery is vested through local authorities and I don't know what each local authority is doing so one of the things I've done is on the back of no one left behind is right to a cosla to seek an agreement that we work together on a common basis to ensure that we have that more coherent system only to work with others as well the partner work and pensions they have committed that they will take part and will also need to work with the third sector and various providers as well and fundamentally of course those people who go through those programmes bringing it back to the formal learning environment of course this is also an element of activity through the 15 to 24 learner journey review that's probably not so much about there being a cluttered landscape that's probably more about the individual route a person might take and maybe there's a bit of concern that some people aren't taking as straight a journey as they possibly could in terms of their ability to articulate from one part of the system to the next there are enough people who qualify through an HND going on to the next element of higher education that they choose to at the appropriate level possibly not so these are things that we're looking at through that particular work as well for the 19-20 budget financial year next year would it be your intention to to have that work concluded and therefore for us to see a change in how this is currently structured clearly we're still going through the budget process we've got to be careful what I say right now my working assumption is that there will be some changes it will not be revolutionary next year I'm engaging in the talk of the French Revolution as well or can we talk about another revolution it will not be wholesale it won't be complete there will be some changes probably but a lot of the elements of what we have in place just now will remain thank you Ms Lamont I just wanted to go back to our previous discussion about a definition of a positive destination and I noted your letter that the UK Government with the Department for Work and Pensions doesn't give you the right information and the right information is not sought HMRCR and DWP it's well to criticise the real but probably not as good I mean why they wouldn't want to share the information I don't know but anyway and Skills Development Scotland doesn't ask for the right information can you confirm it still the Scottish Government's view that our zero hours contract is not fair work an exploitive zero hours contract so if you were able to get the information you would not define a zero hours contract as a positive destination well I've obviously set out writing this came directly as a result of your question to me at I think it was my last appearance at the committee to look at how we can better understand what the destinations are for young people now there are and you yourself have very concretely conceded that there could be and we have identified inherent difficulties in doing so because we are we can measure the proportion of people in the overall workforce that are on a zero hours contract on an estimated basis through the labour force survey but that is a sample survey how we measured of post school destinations we call them positive destinations now they've not always been called that of course they were different in terms of measuring those not in employment education and training that's done not through a sample basis and I think that's a strength of our system we can literally work out where people have gone so I wouldn't want to lose that to move towards move towards a sample basis if you can identify specifically where people have gone it can't be much of a leap of imagination to work out whether they're in a zero hours contract I can assure you young people know when they're in a zero hours contract they know when they're at the mercy of being on the road to it or not but if I can maybe I just think it would be really important that we have a sense that you would do whatever you could not to distort the figures on positive destinations with jobs frankly we would all agree are neither offering training or stability or guarantees of ours we're not distorting the figures that are very clear the figures are robust the figures that were laid out I mean positive destinations are the term knowledge we use inherent within any form of term knowledge we use they could be argued to be loaded terms so previously we used not an employment education or training we could revert back to that but that then became a pejorative term for those who are not in employment training they were referred to as needs so I don't want to get caught up too much what we define as positive destination or not what I am committed to doing I can answer the question in Islam and I've committed in writing I'll commit here again is to doing everything we can to better understand what the destination figures mean and that includes us trying to do what we can to establish how many young people might end up on what is term of zero hours contract in terms of the point you have made of young people standing up on a zero hours contract I think largely I would probably agree with that but we are also that usually informed on the basis of we are engaging with those who are campaigning organisations who do well understand what a zero hours contract might be so I suppose that the point I am trying to make is that this is not as straightforward as we might at first glance think it might be my commitment remains to look at this I've said that in writing we're continuing to do so and I'll be happy to come back to the committee at the earliest opportunity to see where we're getting to with that I very much welcome that last point you make I would make the point I mean I understand what you say about pejorative terms that not in employment education or training was seen as pejorative but pretty accurate whereas a positive destination for somebody in a zero hours contract is not accurate and I actually do think that young people who are sitting waiting for their order to come out and email know exactly what the limits and the rights are but in terms of taking it forward I wonder what conversations you've had with business in your definition of what fair work is because I'm concerned that increasingly businesses see zero hours contracts not as a way of managing the edges of the business but as core a core approach to zero hours contracts what conversations are you having and in terms of careers advice what role does careers advice have in empowering young people to define what is reasonable for them to expect from their work and what a zero hours contract is and critically the role of trade unions in enforcing young people's rights because actually one of the big gaps around zero hours contracts is not so much that there are not rights there are not employment rights for some young people but they don't know how to enforce them given the sport and advice around the role of trade unions and enforce them in a commend the union in better than zero on those people who I know of engage with you directly in the way in which they've been able to highlight these things but do you think it might be part of the core job of careers advisers to give people information about what a definition of an exploitative job would be and some work around for young people who are not doing modern studies wherever they may get information about trade unions but actually a senior trade unions is a place where you would get advice around exercising and enforcing your rights in the workplace so there's two questions well there's a lot of questions there but I think the two fundamental ones were what dialogue do we have with business around the fair work agenda constant dialogue and we are committed to publishing a fair work action plan by the end of this year which I'm charged with the responsibility of and that will be our approach to the fair work agenda engaging with businesses we of course have the business pledge from which we've been reviewing again in terms of trying to get more businesses to take that pledge, fair work is at the heart of that too so this is a constant part of the agenda that I am taking forward I mean it's in my minister's title I'm the minister for business, fair work and skills so in engaging with business fair work is an essential part of that equation in terms of the role of trade unions and informing young people the rights I would agree with you, I would commend Unite and the Better Than Zero campaign they have led I have been able to engage with the STUC's youth conference over the last two years I'll continue to do that and what we will continue to do is we'll continue to support the Scottish Trade Union Congress and its individual affiliate members through the variety of funding we provide directly to them through the trade union learning fund trade union modernisation fund some of which I notice we've come into criticism indeed the STUC has come into criticism for that's life, I'll take the criticism on the chin I think it's the right thing to do for us to work in partnership in that fashion and in terms of how we can ensure young people are aware of the rights I believe in a rights-based focus to education if there's more that can be done then we'll certainly be willing to look at that Do you believe there's a direct role for careers advice in informing young people about the role of trade unions in enforcing the rights in the workplace? I believe that we have a partnership approach with trade unions and we provide them with a significant resource for the purposes of education how they might be able to engage with the educational environment is something that I'm willing to discuss with them Minister, these are young people who are not in trade unions and asking you whether at the point where they're looking at the world of work there should be something done by careers advice that defines in some way what is a reasonable working environment and the role of trade unions because I'm conscious of the time the final point I want to make would you be willing to do some work looking at the extent to which business now sees zero-hours contracts as the model by which they deliver their business because I certainly see that anecdotally that is happening and I wonder if that's something the Government thinks it could inform or shape There's two things there let me commit to raising the issue with Skilled Milk Scotland, their inquiries, information guidance work careers advisors are qualified individuals asked to take forward certain work just now, we'd need to have dialogue with them around what we might expect them to be delivering within the scope of careers advice in terms of zero-hours contracts as a business model the labour force survey actually shows that they are reducing in terms of their as a percentage of the prevalence within the labour market in Scotland clearly they do still persist they exist to greater degree in some sectors rather than others I think it would be very difficult for us to define whether or not specific business is just viewed as a part of their business model but I'm happy for us to look at it and consider what we might be able to do I just want to make a plea to you in your conversations with business that you asked that question because I think you'll find in the hospitality industry even though they'll be able to assess how many folk they might come through their door on a given week very few people on the floor in a restaurant will now be in anything other than a zero-hours contract The flipside though clearly there are historical perceptions about the hospitality sector one of the things I'm now seeing is that they're increasingly investing far better in training and providing apprenticeship opportunities for young people as well to try and combat the perception I think we just need to be careful when we're talking about sectors because within sectors you've got individual employers and they'll have different employment practice but you know I I need to make clear when I am speaking to businesses on the fair work agenda across the government's zero-hours contracts the objectives of the fair work conventions framework the living wage and all the other areas of activity that I'm engaged in are a concerted part of my effort to engage with the business community Thank you very much minister for your attendance at the committee this morning thank you to your officials as well we will suspend very briefly to allow the witnesses to leave but I can ask the committee members to remain as we still have some public business thank you item in public is subordinate legislation we have received information subordinate legislation on special restrictions on adoption from Ethiopia Scotland order 2018 SSI 2018 272 I'd just like to ask any members comments to make on the subordinate legislation can we agree to note that thank you very much and we now move into private session