 Hello and welcome. I'm Lynne Fries, producer of Global Political Economy, or GPE News Docs. Today's guest is Prabhat Patnaik. He'll be talking about his read on the history of capitalism, that he breaks up into five periods from colonialism into the present, and how imperialism, which existed in the colonial era, persists to this day and the system cannot do without it. Topic sourced from a new book, Capital and Imperialism, Theory, History, and the Present, authored by Prabhat Patnaik and Uzza Patnaik, and published by Monthly Review Press. A world renowned economist, Prabhat Patnaik, is Professor Emeritus at the Center for Economic Studies and Planning at Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi. Earlier books by Prabhat Patnaik include accumulation and stability under capitalism, the value of money, and re-envisioning socialism. Welcome Professor Patnaik and thank you for joining us. Thank you. Thank you very much. Let's start from the beginning. So open with comments on the first of five periods in your read of the history of capitalism, and then also in this segment, comment on the theory and so logic behind why you break up the history of capitalism into these five periods. We really begin with the pre-first world war period of colonialism, a very long boom during the Victorian era which spilled over into the Edwardian era in Britain, which was marked by the existence of the gold standard. So that very long boom is something which in our view was quintessentially based upon colonialism, and therefore we take the pre-first world war period as quintessentially the period in which capitalism has this kind of a relationship with colonialism. That relationship is of a very interesting kind, you know, because Britain was the leading capitalist country of that period. It was a leading capitalist country because it had the biggest empire. Now Britain as a leading capitalist country kept her markets open to other newly emerging capitalist powers like the United States, like Germany, and then so on. They exported their goods to Britain. So Britain kept its markets open to their goods so that there was no conflict between the emerging capitalist powers and Britain. Britain itself sold its goods in the colonial markets, but the colonial countries sold a whole range of primary commodities and raw materials to these newly emerging capitalist powers. So they had not only large export, they had an export surplus we surveyed these powers and therefore Britain stopped because of taxing the colonies and using these taxes as the means of getting hold of the goods which the colonies were selling in these new markets. And therefore not only balanced her own payments by getting hold of the export surpluses of the colonies, but actually got hold of additional resources with which it made capital export. That means it actually exported capital to these countries which were newly emerging. So Britain actually was having we surveyed let's say US and Germany and so on, different period with different countries, both trade deficit and also a capital account deficit. When you export capital to any country that is the same as importing IOUs. That means you have a deficit in the capital accounts of Britain was exporting capital to the same countries with which it had a trade deficit. How is that possible? It's possible because of bringing in the colonies. That was the period in which capitalism had this very long boom and that period came to an end with the first world war for a variety of reasons, but obviously the colonial markets where Britain was selling its goods, they tend to get exhausted, they get saturated because the colonial income incomes in the colonies were not growing. These sales by Britain were in the expense of local producers and once you have more or less displaced local producers there is no further growth in the market. So colonial markets came to an end for that reason. Well that gives us a look into the leading capitalist country in that period as an imperial power in relation to the colonies and as background to all this comment briefly on some of the theory you discuss in your book on capital and imperialism and what you mean by imperialism. Well you know the book begins by discussing capitalism essentially as a money using economy. If you have a money using economy in which money is used for making transactions, we sell goods on the basis of which we get money with which we buy other goods. So money is used for transactions. Every transaction requires the use of money. If money is used for transactions, then it is logically necessary that money must also be periodically held. In other words, suppose I sell a good, get money, but instead of using that money immediately I decide to hold it for some time. In that case I am actually using money as a form of wealth. Now it is impossible to have money as a means of effecting transactions without at the same time having money in which it is held as a form of wealth. Now if capitalism therefore is seen as a money using economy in which money is held as a form of wealth, in that case several conclusions follow. One conclusion is that if people suddenly decide to hold a bit more of money than they have been doing, in that case there would be a shortage of demand for goods. And if there's a shortage of demand for goods then you would have unemployment. Therefore the use of money as a form of wealth necessarily carries with it the prospect of involuntary unemployment. Involuntary unemployment can arise the moment money is a form of wealth. Now if so, once an economy is caught with involuntary unemployment, there is no obvious reason how it can come out of it because in such a case if let us say capacity utilization drops because there is less output produced because people want to get rid of stocks of commodities which have become unsaleable. In that case investment would fall further and so on. There is no obvious reason how such an economy can get out of this kind of what one would call an overproduction crisis. Therefore the moment one visualizes the role of money as a form of wealth then it follows that capitalism would have overproduction crisis and if so then to get out of this overproduction crisis capitalism would require some kind of an external intervention which historically was in the form of external markets outside of capitalism proper namely by selling to the pre-capitalist setting. So that is one way in which pre-capitalist setting becomes essential for the continuation of capitalism. The other way that it becomes essential is because there's a whole range of commodities which are required by capitalism that essentially grew up in the temperate regions of the world and that these commodities while required are not produced in the temperate regions of the world. When we think of the industrial revolution that was the beginning of industrial capitalism that occurred in the cotton textile industry in Britain but Britain can never grow any cotton it's impossible for Britain to grow cotton and therefore Britain has to import cotton therefore capitalism cannot do without a whole range of raw material which are produced and reducible only in the tropical region that is outside of where capitalism was born. Likewise if you're buying these goods then it is absolutely essential that the supplies of these goods must be made available to you as your requirement keeps increasing. Many of these goods for instance tropical goods that capitalism requires are goods whose supplies do not necessarily increase because the tropical land mass is of a given magnitude and capitalism does not make investments in this tropical land mass which would typically require an active state intervention which capitalism has always shied away from and therefore it has to get these goods or or less by reducing their local absorption in order to prevent inflation both locally and in the metropolis. So for all these reasons capitalism needs to have not only an area around itself which it has access to which is a pre-capitalist surrounding but what is more it also needs to control that pre-capitalist surrounding through what we call income deflation compressing local absorption of commodities there in order to keep getting larger supplies for meeting the requirements of the metropolis therefore our argument is that it is impossible to visualize capitalism without visualizing a setting in which it must be placed and a setting that it must actually dominate and that relationship is what we call imperialism. Comment more on this relationship that you call imperialism and the changing role of the third world. The relationship of capitalism to the setting has several dimensions it requires the setting as a market where it displaces local production so that in exports of capitalist products from the capitalist sector can be accommodated it also requires this as a source of raw materials and so on. Now in different periods of time different roles of the setting have become important but one role which continues to remain important from the beginning till now is the role of its being a source of raw materials foodstuffs and that is a common feature between the contemporary period and the colonial period. So in so far as we think of imperialism not as confined only to the colonial period but something which in fact is always there ever present therefore we actually emphasize this common character of providing essential raw materials because I believe the market role of the third world is something which receded into the background some time ago in fact in the first world war itself. Pre-first world war the market role the provision of market role of the third world for capitalism in the metropolitan countries was important but that role feases to be significant after the first world war which is why we in fact which is how we explain the Great Depression of 1930 in the war period but on the other hand the raw material role of the setting of the third world is something which continues to remain important till this day it's one common feature from the beginning right till now. So as you explain you see imperialism as a relationship between capitalism and its setting and that it's impossible to visualize capitalism without this setting that it dominates. Well now Marx as we know largely saw capitalism as a closed system so what's your take on that? Yes Marx was acutely aware of the fact that capitalism has colonies has imperialism dominates these colonies and all that as a matter of empirical fact but when he analyzed capitalism in capital he really looked at it in terms of a system in with the capitalist and their workers I suppose his idea was essentially to look at the origin of surplus value which is why he really looked at only that as a system the relationship of capitalism with its setting with the third world is something that really does not enter into Marx's analysis notwithstanding references to this phenomenon here and there it really does not enter into his analysis as a crucial fact it comes into the analysis only with Rosa Luxembourg now I was arguing that if you have a money-using system in that case accumulation of capital which is not necessarily from people's volition but this is they are compelled to accumulate if they are compelled to accumulate but the form in which they accumulate capital is not necessarily by adding to fixed capital or inventories or to goods or to physical productive capacity it can be accumulation of capital in the form of money now that being the case you have the possibility of crisis the moment you think of capitalism being a money-using economy then in a period for instance when people wish to hold more money accumulate capital in the form of money hold more money as they're wealth you would find that there will be a tendency towards over production because goods are being produced but people don't want to buy goods they want to hold money so that creates the tendency to overproduction and once you have a tendency to overproduction then the accumulation process gets disrupted in fact it's difficult to explain sustained accumulation once you recognize this role of money and sustained accumulation then become possible only if in such periods you actually can have access to an outside market in addition of course there is the requirement of raw materials foodstuffs and so on which have to be procured from these other regions there are two ways in which they can procured one is that you actually increase their output so that the local absorption remains the same your additional requirements in the metropolis are met by larger outputs but on the other hand that requires state action typically for instance an increase in tropical agricultural output requires state action in irrigation and so on something which Marx had talked about you know so that being the case typically since capitalism is opposed to actions of that kind being undertaken by the colonial state in order to enlarge output what they do is the squeezing of local absorption reduction of local consumption so that the the output does not increase but you simply take more and more out of it for meeting the requirements of the metropolis so the point is that you know that that in these very many different ways capitalism requires this outside setting and it requires an outside setting that it can actually dominate and manipulate that's what we are calling imperialism so in this first period in your read of the history of capitalism comment on this phase of imperialism in the colonial period up until its exhaustion and collapse the colonial period the colonial arrangement was in a sense the best arrangement for capitalism because the two basic rules the two basic requirements of capitalism namely the availability of an external market of an outside market and the availability of raw materials at non-increasing prices as the system keeps growing the growing availability of raw materials at non-increasing prices from the colonial empire both these requirements were satisfied by the colonial relationship capitalism sold its manufactured goods in the colonies by causing what we call deindustrialization where the local producers the local craftsmen were displaced and therefore capitalism acquired that market for its own industrial products at the same time it actually got hold of raw materials including food stuffs and so on by taxing the colonies and using the tax proceeds as its own source of revenue and therefore corresponding to the tax proceeds it actually acquired a set of goods which these colonies provided to the metropolis and this indeed at non-increasing prices because you could always squeeze the consumption local absorption of these goods by raising your taxes we actually argued that in the period after the first world war no such beautiful arrangement from the point of view of capitalism has been possible clarify what you mean by colonies when you talk about the colonial relationship the term colonies is somewhat misleading we use the term colonies exclusively refer to the tropical colonies in which there was very little settlement from the metropolitan countries by which i mean the countries the european countries where capitalism was going there was not that much of settlement there settlement was in the temperate regions because europe they just migrated from the european temperate lands to the lands in australia new zealand the united states canada and so on these were the temperate regions of settlement and of course there was a period when there were also colonies we called them the colonies of settlement the colonies of settlement obviously were the colonies that actually became independent of europe much earlier and what is more they are the ones to which capitalism actually got diffused from europe so at one level you actually had along with the migration from the temperate lands to the other temperate regions like rice in canada us along with that you also had the migration of capital by which i mean that europe gave loans to these countries in order to buy goods so that they could actually themselves develop as capitalist powers but on the other hand that migration of capital was actually financed by taking away resources from the tropical colonies so so when we use the word colonies is actually misleading because it refers to both in a juridical sense india was a colony like the united states before its liberation but as a matter of fact the united states as a colony even when it was a colony had a very different status from india as a colony so so we actually use the term colony colonialism empire to refer exclusively to the colonies of conquest as opposed to the colonies of settlement so as you say colonies of settlement like for example the united states experienced a diffusion of capitalism and along with that a trajectory of industrialization and higher wages comment on the experience and trajectory of the colonies of conquest under the impact of metropolitan capital the colonies of conquest were the ones which actually faced two kinds of consequences from the encroachment of capitalism from the metropolis one as i mentioned was a deindustrialization i mean obviously you had very substantial industrial development there not capitalist industrial development but pre-capitalist craft production i mean after all the east india company was formed in order to buy these kinds of products and sell them abroad so the point is you had pre-capitalist craft production or pre-capitalist industrial craft production which got decimated because of competition from industrial capitalism and that generated unemployment and the unemployed were thrown onto a land mass which was more or less already fully used up therefore the increase the pressure of population of land and that gave rise to a whole lot of phenomena of overcrowding low wages high rents on land and all that second thing that happened is that the peasantry in these countries was heavily taxed and the peasants were producing all kinds of goods they were heavily taxed and this tax amounted in effect to taking away those goods from them because after corresponding to the cash that they pay as taxation effectively they are paying some goods as taxation now these goods were taken away from them in the form of an export surplus and this is something that was used by the metropolis so these countries are growing unemployment and poverty in fact we argue that the roots of modern mass poverty lie in colonialism therefore the origin of mass poverty that we see today really is because of capitalism we're going to break and be back with part two of this conversation with Prabhupatnik Prabhupatnik thank you thank you very much and from Geneva Switzerland thank you for joining us in this segment of gp news docs