 Good morning committee nice to see you all It's the first time the session Thank you Off to a good start So I'm here to talk about H 496 that was introduced last year in 2019 this is an act relating to bias motivated crimes and misconduct And I think this is the first time the committee is taking it up this year. I think we went through it briefly last year So it may look familiar to some of you Yep, so I'll be glad to get started So I'll just preface it by saying the first eight sections of this bill our amending existing law in the discrimination chapter and The hate crimes injunctions against hate-motivated crimes chapter and it's essentially just making some word tweaks So I think we're gonna go through those pretty quickly The ninth section is a new Is it would be a new section of law? And with associated civil penalties, so it's been a little bit more time once we get to the back of the bill That was as it was introduced last year So section one this is we're starting in the discrimination chapter, which is chapter 31 and title 13 And you'll see that what we've done on line nine is just add the word or bias and you're gonna see this throughout We've changed we've either added the word bias or we've changed hate motivated to bias motivated throughout this chapter and the next chapter to provide that conduct that is Prohibited that's motivated by bias as opposed to hate is also prohibited So it's the next change in section two like I said hate motivated has changed to bias motivated crimes And then it's also on line 18. We've removed the requirement that conduct be maliciously motivated so a person who Commits a crime and that conduct is motivated by the victims actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin sex, ancestry, age Service in the service in the US armed forces or disability sexual orientation or gender identity is Subject to these additional penalties on top of the penalties that are Imposed because of the underlying crime that was committed Oh Thank you, friend the difference between hate motivated and bias motivated. I guess How could that be applied out of the real world, I guess, you know, how would What's the difference Charges go I Think that I mean the charge would be the same I think the words, you know the plain meaning of the words are what you really look at in a situation like this So bias is different than hate because it means that It's motivated by a prejudice Against or for a particular person or group of people as opposed to hate which Sort of indicates that the conduct is more maliciously motivated as as the statute says So it may apply to sort of a broader Yeah, just a follow-up question that I'm sort of is this was the is the intent or was the intent of the The people that introduced the bill is this a sort of a Language modernization thing or will we finding hate? Difficult to prove and so therefore putting bias in I think it's the former that this is it's an acknowledgement that This conduct is not as can be Motivated by bias as opposed to actual hate Please correct me I don't think that Changing the words hate to bias is the more substantive change Yes You're right. So that is a that's a specific sort of element that the Prosecutor would no longer have to prove that that was a malicious motivation for the conduct No, I yeah If I feel like we discussed malicious and another bill once and it makes sense to Use it if you can okay So thank you for that clarification. So the next section is section three. I'm on page three now We've moved to chapter 33, which is the following chapter and this is the chapter that provides that there is civil relief for people who are victims of hate motivated crimes and Again, we make the same changes here Change hate motivated to bias motivated crime throughout the definition section And if you turn to page four section four throughout the commencement of action and hearing section Page five is juvenile defendants Just a technical change there online 12 and then on page six change again changing hate motivated to bias motivated Same thing in section six. This is the relief section. What reliefs the court can order Just changing those words throughout Section seven service Same thing there and section eight provides is a penalty section And we change the words there as well. So now I've gotten to section nine. This is a new section of law violation of constitutional rights and the associated penalties So this statute is modeled after a similar statute in Massachusetts and I've for the definition section I've drawn on our some language from our stalking statute So some of it may look familiar to you So the first definition is repeated harassment or intimidation So that means Engaging purposefully in a course of conduct that's directed at a specific person That the person knows or should know would cause a reasonable person to fear for their safety or the safety of a family member Or the person who's undertaking the conduct should know knows or should know will cause a reasonable person to suffer a substantial emotional distress and emotional distress can Know it's been the questions Remember the answer The conduct knows or should know what does I just want to should know me Should knows means that a reasonable reasonable person would know So I'll just keep going there what substantial emotional distress is evidenced by a significant modification in a person's routines Including moving from an established residence changes to daily routines The cause serious disruption in a person's life or That is pulled directly from the stalking statute And then move on to the course of definition of course of conduct and this is important because Course of conduct is in the repeated harassment or intimidation definition. So we're we're separately defining that here Again, this is this comes from the stalking statute Two or more acts over a period of time however short in which a person harasses Intimidates threatens or makes threats about another person or interferes with another person's property And that applies to acts conducted by the person either directly or indirectly and by any action method device or means And we've got that all-important sentence there that constitutionally protected activity is not included in the definition Of course of conduct so that's sort of a Way of of saying this statute is not intended to get any activity that would fall under the first amendment right to free speech Yeah, it just means could be Could be right it could back a court could interpret that to be as long as yes I think a court could make that interpretation on its own You said this that language comes out of another yep that comes out of the the existing stalking Again, I'm not looking to change you I'm just I Can follow up Eric worked with this committee on the stalking statute I think you did a sort of an overhaul two years ago of that statute, so I'm sorry, I don't have that. Oh, did you okay thought you need history, but I will I can follow up with him Let's see if you remember Yeah, and I might just be misunderstanding or something like that, but can you give me an example of a constitutionally protected activity that would also be harassment but not Problem, so there's the constitutional the obviously this the constitution protects speech But there's certain types of speech that are not constitutionally protected an example is the true threats If you if a person knowingly places another person in fear for their safety That is typically considered a an area of speech that is not constitutionally protected So by putting in the sentence that you that you're not going after constitutionally protected speech It allows the court to say the legislature's intent was not to get at this activity. That's constitutionally protected and it will typically not undermine a statute on its face for being unconstitutional if you've got problematic But still be protected not see demonstration. Yeah I think There's a there's a there's a broad range of activity could be I'm not sure I'm the best person to talk about what would be problematic, but Right, right definitely demonstration So my place the Confederate flag on coaches from long that would be considered harassment Being that we're on the record. I won't say what might happen You know the right right, but what if I carried a Confederate flag at a rally that would be constitutionally covered You know you're right, you know to do that But not on my property right, you know, yeah, you know, it's that's where the line gets crossed You know is when you do it directly to someone versus Your shit, you know, this is this is my thing so to speak and You have the right to do your thing as long as you don't bring it to me I So one thing I'm wondering is do we ever define reasonable person because I know When Tom asked about it, I feel like frequently there's discussion about well what if we have to diametrically opposed Views and we're both reasonable people like how do we Or how does the court look at reasonable person? The court looks at it in terms of the Circumstances so how would a person your average person respond in this particular set of circumstances and We don't typically define it because we don't necessarily want it to vary between one statute and another and I'm thinking of this is sort of a silly analogy, but like Whatever that game show is that's like our studio audience said and it's like you usually have very different Views that you know, maybe two or three views that a large group of people have so Are you thinking about it in the context of whether or not a reasonable person would be placed in fear or Well, I know we got into that with stalking quite a bit. So yes, it could be that or a reasonable person is offended by it where A court might say Well, that's silly, you know Like I just want to make sure that it doesn't give enough latitude for a right and I think because the What a reasonable person has to be put in is a pretty objective standard like if the person has to be put in fear Or the person has to be Suffer substantial emotional distress, but you you talk about what that means specifically if a reasonable person would change their The way they drive to work Or change where they're living Those are pretty objective Circumstances, okay, as opposed to whether or not a reasonable person would Feel a certain way about something feel right, okay And I know there's that like Excel skull kind of category of people like okay They're super sensitive or you know, it causes them to have a heart attack or I mean we're that's in tort law though Okay, so that doesn't okay, right. Thanks So Barbara Good question that I had but also How do you define what a reasonable person is nowadays Well, again, the court's interpretation the court sort of makes Makes a determination about whether or not a Person that an average person would feel a certain way under those set of circumstances So I'm not sure that the court actually uses a definition of what a reasonable person is It's it's just sort of a framework for thinking about whether or not it was appropriate for The victim to feel a certain way under a certain set of certain circumstances so my original My original question was don't we already have a lot of these laws already in place For a lot of this format already in place. It's just been Expanded as the world changer or as society changes what's allowed and what's not Or how it's looked at now compared to in the past I'm honestly not experienced in this area much at all. Thank God. I've never really Been exposed that much to it. So I thought you know, I thought I needed that But in terms of Right Right. Yeah. Yeah, so this this is different than Sort of the stocking statute or other statutes we have because it provides a different relief So we haven't gotten to that section yet, but it's a it provides for a civil penalty. So it That's something that we don't have that doesn't exist currently in Vermont statute that it gives a person a remedy of Seeking a civil injunction against a person who's harassing them and also it allows them to go after damages If they can prove the elements of the prohibited conduct Yes, I think that was a good So I guess one of the things that Well, there's two things and I'll wait until the the penalty portion to discuss You know that But when we think about You know bias motivated Incidences What is real scary? is when it's at the juvenile level and What people experience almost daily and in one of my other lives One of my colleagues Came to me and said coach you wouldn't believe what I heard on the bus and it was kids, you know using the n-word and and One kid on the bus Took it really hard The other kids that were involved in this this little male melee Said that they were just quoting rap music so for an Administrator You know, it's easy for the bus driver to say look, I'm stopping about you guys either, you know, stop this behavior Or whatever, you know, you can stop that piece But when you get to the reporting part to the school administrator in the school administrator looks at the film Because you know all of the buses have cameras now, you know looks at the film and goes oh my god How do I separate? You know, what's really going on here because it becomes really difficult but With this hopefully After you do your investigation, you know as a school administrator because you're required to by law You will come up with more findings because we will give them more tools to work with Okay, because right now the kid could put very easily just say yeah, I was listening somewhere I was just and That would be it now With if we are able to get this through and it's not so much what happens on the other end It's more of the learning piece You know that that goes on People will have more tools to work through the problem And that's what this is really about The activity is not included with Really focuses on Free speech rights, but but then we're also talking about Protecting an individual's exercise of enjoyment Includes the Vermont Constitution and the Vermont Constitution for instance One protects Individuals have the right to liberty acquiring possession Property pursuing safety And there's right to religion there's free exercise of religion free speech There's a lot of rights that are liberated in the Vermont Constitution as well So ultimately though I think becomes a battle Protecting those rights of the victim And then of course free speech rights So I don't know if that helps but that's kind of what the intention of Also reasonable person as long as we're not looking in DC it's pretty easy Okay, so I'll move on to the violation section I'm at the bottom of page nine now subsection B So this is the Privated conduct no person shall through repeated harassment or intimidation. That's the definition We just went through willfully injure interfere with or attempt to injure interfere with or oppressor threaten any other person in The free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to that person through the Vermont Constitution Or the laws of Vermont or the Constitution or laws of the United States so Importantly we've got the mens rea element there of willfulness So the conduct has to be intentional conduct So I'll move on to the penalty section I'm a person who's injured as a result of a violation of this new section has a private right of action in Superior court for injunctive release the rising out of the violation And for each violation a civil penalty of not more than $5,000 plus reasonable costs and attorney's fees Also provides in subsection D that a person can get a protective order if they can prove by a preponderance of the evidence That the defendant did violate the section and then subdivision to there talks about how relief is granted for a fixed period And the court can extend the order at the expiration of it of the original order For time that it deems necessary to protect the plaintiff or the plaintiff's children And all of this language is lifted directly from the section on injunctions against hate-motivated crimes The relief section where you can get a protective order there as well So that's all the same kind of same kind of requirements for the protective order Right Yep, yeah, so you talked about that a little bit last year with the abortion bill There are places in our statute that provide that a person has can bring an action on their own without the Attorney General for example representing them for civil relief in Superior court So that there's in our consumer protection laws We have a few places where you can have a private right of action again the abortion bill provides for That the new abortion law provides for a private right of action and So that's here as well so The idea is that in cases where I just want to make sure a couple things if the AG's office is representing them It's probably not in a civil matter Right there are there can be places where the Attorney General would would Would represent a person in a civil matter, but it would have to be specific Specifically set forth so this does not provide that the Attorney General would go after somebody so anyone who Wants to take advantage of this either has to represent themselves Or get an attorney and go through the process right and I heard you saying I was looking for it if the Person is found guilty they can get court costs. Yes. Okay, because that's one of the things I'm thinking of it's usually Court costs and attorneys views And I'm assuming there are attorneys that will take a case. Well, I don't know will they take a case What could happen is right like they have to put the money out first and they're not able to Use this law Right, there are my understanding is that there are attorneys in practice who will take the case without being paid until Relief is awarded and obviously they have to think it's a case that they're going to be able to One question so aside from changing The the wording from hate motivated to bias motivated. Does this have any other effect on the criminal path? right, yes, I We've taken out the word maliciously So in the hate crime statute Kind of removes that element that the conduct has to be maliciously motivated and just provides it has to be motivated by the person's protected status So So the tape and others Representative of our seems Point a little further So in the criminal side Both can still be used as far as hate or bias I think that bias is Would sort of encompass hate I I think that My interpretation maybe it might be better to talk to a prosecutor about this But because bias is sort of a lower standard than hate it is necessarily included Thank you Well, I guess just Just a quick point In thinking about that little example I gave of the school bus I do drive spare school bus so I run into a lot of situations with folks and So a lot of my colleagues will you know like ask questions? What do you do with this and what do you do with that and I Really believe that The adults in the room need tools and But then again, we need to let them know what the tools are that they have to use but When we look at a reasonable person Most people are, you know, fairly reasonable, you know, I'm giving it, you know, I'm going You know, right, you know, I'm going Or we would hope you know that and So, you know taking that as the you know, let's say as a first step You start to wonder You know, where does this come from? You know, because When you talk to the kids Some would never even go there Whereas others feel it's okay to go there and so you say, you know, the the question you ask is Why is it okay? and then what in your Sensibility makes you think that that's okay to go there, you know to hurt another student let's say and And it can be on any topic because you know, it's it's all of the protected classes, let's say and You see that, you know, like happening and and some people do it just for you know, the attention Some people do it because it's bias motivated and it's a bias usually that is Established somewhere, you know, it goes deeper than just you know something they heard on TV or Something along that line and then it's a little sad when you start to get into it in depth It goes back to the family and you know, that's That's that discussion that people have a hard time having sometimes But when you're let's say a school administrator and you bring the parents and To start to do the investigation after you've met with the student and then it becomes eminently clear where that behavior came from and And and that's why you see and you hear from constituents Reports of not feeling that they were treated well, you know in a school setting Over a discipline issue and Usually when it's something that is related to you know, these types of issues that's where people You know start to split, you know that line pretty quickly So anyways that that's a lot of what the you know the background piece of this is and you know as you talk to more people you hear more stories and So having tools that that help us In any of those settings and it could be just about anywhere That that it can occur Especially if we're in any of the helping fields, you know, you're gonna see it And or service So it becomes pretty Pretty important To make sure that people understand that Some things just aren't right and aren't cool to do to each other. So anyway That's kind of the background Thank you Just we're gonna have to give you frequent flyer I do hope myself here That's right They would share with the Attorney General's office. So a couple things I wanted to State upfront the Attorney General's support for the goals behind this bill absolutely supports What is motivating this bill which is to protect people who need protecting and For whom our current system doesn't always work and the people who are subject to these incidents don't always feel protected often don't feel protected by By the folks who are supposed to be helping them which includes people in government like our office So I want to be clear on that I also want to be clear that I am not my office's foremost expert on these issues and Well, I am happy to entertain some questions and give answers where I feel comfortable doing so Julio Thompson is really a true expert on these issues. He has national Insight into what's going on around the country and I so I will and I apologize But I will defer some of those answers to somebody who's going to be more useful to the committee and has a lot more Expertise than I do on this stuff. So I just want to be upfront about that as well But I can give you that clear policy statement We support the goals of this bill and we will get our best expert and he's very good into the committee to Answer more detail-oriented questions about the constitutional balance of some of these measures And he can tell you a lot about what other states and jurisdictions are doing with this Maybe it might be helpful if you could share with the rest of the committee some of the work that the AG's office has been doing at least with the With the database for Bias crimes Sure. So one morning. Yeah, and with some one of the things that committee members have probably may have heard about and is a Bias incident reporting system, which is a Fancy name for what is effectively a phone tree, but an important phone tree a phone tree that needs to be Established and where the calls need to be made and the idea basically is making it clear that Incidents that involve bias whether or not they rise to the level of a crime are being reported up to our office And vice versa our office when we hear about things reporting things down to local jurisdictions In the past we've found it often is the case that a Local officer may encounter some incident There's pretty clearly some bias behind it. It may be as obvious as a racial slur or religious slur and It doesn't you know, the officer assesses it doesn't correctly Maybe assesses that it doesn't rise to the level of a crime and says well, that's that you know No police action here. We're done and what we're really trying to do is say for all those incidents The agent's office needs to hear about it so that we can ensure that other that we Can assess whether we can do something about it and so that we can make sure that other authorities around the state and Are hearing about that as well So that may include the Human Rights Commission certainly will include the Human Rights Commission in many cases It may include the federal government as well The Vermont US Attorney's Office and that's because those offices all have powers to enforce that go beyond criminal enforcement So even though local officer local states attorney may not feel like they have jurisdiction because there's no crime There are civil enforcement actions that can be taken either by our office by the Human Rights Commission or by the US Attorney's Office So that's a really important system and it's not just reporting up but also You know reporting to each other making sure that we are hearing about what you're hearing about where that's appropriate I may not always be appropriate, but where that's appropriate and Just making sure that there's good communication as part of that certainly tracking what we're hearing The FBI statistics on hate crimes May not be complete because reporting isn't mandatory on those issues and so just being sure we have our own Understanding what's happening in the state is important. So that was maybe a longer winded answer but hopefully but I think that's helpful, you know in everyone's understanding of you know, how important not not just how important it is but How we have an opportunity probably is the best way to put it To try to mitigate those instances in our own state You know and and sometimes you just have to take control of the of the beast because that's that's what it is and You know the one of the driving pieces here, too is with that communication Sometimes what you find out is is that a particular incident? although as David said It might not rise to The AG's jurisdiction But it might cross into let's say the Human Rights Commission's jurisdiction where Because they Don't have jurisdiction over housing. We have jurisdiction over housing and a particular incident might have affected my ability to stay in a certain community That affects my housing You know and that's that's my right to be able to live where I want to live and You're infringing on my right to live You know there and if I can pay for it and do all of those things I should be able to live there and if I'm being mistreated There are laws to Mitigate that so anyways that communication is really critical and and that goes holds true for all of the protected classes Because what you start to see in some of these cases is is that you know Weird people are usually equal opportunity weird people, you know, so and I use that term to kind of identify a group of folks that are bias motivated and They'll they'll pick on anybody The database sounds great, I'm wondering how people know to Contact it so For example parallel justice commission Assuming Because there are cases that we've heard words not it's actually law enforcement saying or the systems being the ones that are making people feel uncomfortable and so I'm just wondering how Like can a citizen call up and say This just happened to me or they really need to go through some channel No They should not feel like they have to go through any particular But I also think that you're raising a really good point and I don't I'll say plainly I don't think that we in government have done as well as we could in terms of getting that message out there that You don't have to go through any particular channel and call the AG's office directly call the Human Rights Commission directly Maybe you do have Somebody feel comfortable with them open your town or county authorities structure Call any of those people and the idea here is that there will be communication within sort of on the inside to make sure that the Bright people are dealing with the issue But I do think we need to do better in terms of getting the message out there So are there materials that your office has or can generate like because we're always passing on like here's some free tax help or here's This resource and it just seems like a really important one for us to help Yeah, I agree. And I so this is Thompson, sorry, I'll be able to answer this better. I know we did develop some stuff a couple years ago or a year and a half ago Maybe that was intended to be distributed to law enforcement around the state. I don't know the status of that That was more civil rights or units project But yes, there have been efforts to try to get that information out there and one thing that we've really found when we've done our forums around the state on The issues of bias incidents is that There are often local entities like non-profit entities not always government entities where people do feel comfortable I think one of the lessons that we've taken from that and I think all Sort of government actors to take from that is work with the leadership of those entities Because they may be in contact with folks who aren't comfortable going to authorities But often the leadership of those places are people who are more comfortable And are they contacting you with that data? I again, holy, I'll be right again. That's a great point is like making sure but yeah having those sort of intermediaries where it may be that the folks at the top of those organizations are more comfortable moving in those worlds and can be a Go-between a bridge And right front and center on the Vermont doc page or something. Yeah, that's a good idea I think that's a proud. That's an issue that is real and we need to work on. Yeah. Yeah And I and I think that sometimes, you know, and and I think we've all sensed that the You can hear testimony on something Like this and all of a sudden you go. Oh my goodness, you know, how can we do it better? You know or or not so much better. How can we get that word out? I remember hearing testimony about the Our advocate Our medical advocate and they got you know recognition this morning and I don't know how many calls you get from constituents about health care So to be able and now, you know, at this was your couple of years ago after I Heard, you know from Mike Now you had a point of reference that you could refer your Constituents to and kind of pass the word if you do have a problem these guys will step up and they do in the Advocates office But anyway That makes sense I'm noting Yeah, that actually is something that my fissure said all of us All right, thank you Good morning, I was a lot less nervous than I was like two years ago Thank you Good to see you all too for the record Brenda Churchill with the LGBTQI Alliance of Vermont And I wanted to pick up on a theme that I heard when I was listening to the legal Definitions and Barbara. I just sent you a memo that came from Captain Scott who I had a good conversation with yesterday about The reporting and the incidences and what's going on and since part of my testimony, but I'm kind of gonna jump around here One of the things that occurred to me When I was driving down here that isn't in my testimony is let's say I'm I've been a victim of being harassed or somebody in my community has What's the mechanism that they can go to now the pride center is obvious You know they get calls all the time so they get referred into the system But I have to realize that it is me that's going to be filling out the complaint. It's me that's going to Go into court. It's me who may be representing myself because As a protected class of folks or a marginalized community I may not make enough money to hire a lawyer and I can't find the the pro bono attorneys That may be out there or I don't have the resources to do so and then I'm sitting across from my accuser Or or my with the perpetrator of the crime to me. That's a pretty intimidating circumstance I don't think there's a lot of people in my community that would feel Really comfortable doing that without an advocate or somebody going with them That just came into my my thought process this morning and it was an aside I'm going to just skip the recap of who the represented who I represent But it is a consortium of now six lgbtq mission driven alliances and within the within the state of vermont I'm preparing for my testimony today. I spoke with members of my community I spoke with boar yang I spoke with captain gary scott and former representative kyle morris I did so that I might gain some more insight and have a broader view of what has Led to seeing this bill brought to the house floor and hopefully the governor's desk to be signed When introduced the vermont coalition for ethnic and social equity in schools sent a letter to ask folks to Make sure that we joined in the discussion at least from the standpoint of of who stakeholders were for Putting this law forth I'm not sure that I am aware of who those people were or if there was ever an inclusion Within the context of the committee to make sure that our voices were heard but Overall, I think with the reviews both the legal reviews and the thoughts of mr. share I think I've got a pretty good idea that it's it's it's okay Personally I've been witness to hate speech that I hope you never have to have directed at you or a family member My friend christine hawk was stood up to a relentless stream of hate mail hate speech And direct confrontation every day of her campaign and for a long time after Threats on her life her family her campaign staff were reality reality that we had to move past I want you to know that she read everything That was addressed to her By email or in letters she was extremely motivated to move beyond the hate and actually seemed energized by the vitriol that we All witnessed Our friend former representative morris a judiciary committee member has also been the target of hate speech And it has affected her life and her family as well I do not need to go over the well-known and publicized details of how that story continues to unfold Both of these people Christine and kaya are extraordinary humans They continue to show us how to move past the ugly underbelly Of our current society Both of these people who I call friends have been deeply tragically and continuously assaulted by others Who saw motivations seemed to be the disruption of lives of people who are different than they are According to statistics provided to me by uh Captain scott and the vermont state police We are seeing an increase in the hate and bias motivated crimes being reported And to the point It is Awareness and training and community building that law enforcement officers receive They're likely to bring those statistics up because now people are reporting them and they are meeting a threshold of Bias, but they may not be criminalized or In violation of the law per se This This really is probably the crux of this is is that the training that the vermont state police is instituted on part of the fair and impartial policing board so I Hear all this and the statistics are fresh and and It is it is really encouraging in a bad sort of way that there is now more reporting being done because people are Officers law enforcement officers, particularly the vermont state police are aware Of what they're looking at and as that trickles down to other departments and other law enforcement agencies You may indeed see see this as an increase in Both reporting and and actuality The change in language in the addition of civil penalties h496 now has what it seems to have been lacking The I'd ask the committee to consider an addition to the penalty part Of this act to include a diversion program if possible so that The community the offenders can be accountable to the community And a way to help restore offenders in a way that allows the courts to have greater latitude and enclosure In closing I'd like to say that this bill goes in the right direction This time really has come to show unity and support for anyone that is the victim of this level of bias and hatred All marginalized communities deserve protection the lgbtq ia alliance of vermont supports this legislation Thank you The diversion program Thanks, um, basically, there's currently a diversion program that exists for folks who have Either minor offenses or offenses that don't rise to Well, maybe even do rise to Rather serious crimes that allow them to make reparations to the individuals in their communities I'm not super well versed in that but I have known people that have participated in local boards that have Brought people back to the community in a way that is meaningful to both the community and the individual So I'd I'd actually not answer the question as fully as I might if I knew it, but it's a good question Yeah, I guess I yeah, I was just trying to understand I would think and we can hear from the state's attorneys That the criminal portion that we have in here changed the device won't be applied in such A version is already an option. I mean that's available there Yeah, I would hope that the the judges in Across the state would have that latitude to bring people to a different or an alternative thing Especially if it's a first offense or in the case coach of minors that may be involved in In that I think those are are really Better alternatives than enacting civil penalties where Maybe people can't pay anyway Right so Yeah, so you're speaking I guess you're you're addressing more Yeah, yes Well, it could be it could be but let's just you know say that maybe that isn't what fits best In that case if we're not if you're looking at a civil thing I might say well, I'd like the person to apologize publicly I'd like them to maybe do some community service work. I'd like them to join a pride center For a few meetings and get to know the folks that they were harming A lot of these things are I'm sure wrought from ignorance And education can overcome that So Under this Oh, I'm sorry, so um, I think what you're talking about Might be um The restorative justice programs would probably be a great vehicle for that and um Right, I don't know how I know that a lot of them are busy and we want to make sure that they have the right, um training and tools to be effective I also So I I like that idea because it really does seem like it's going to be more beneficial to Just giving someone a fee a fine or incarcerating them Which made me wonder about people who are incarcerated who are experiencing This information and making sure somehow that the um prisoners Rights group is again actively Providing that information to prisoners I also wonder if it would make sense to have like some kit that people get that would say Here are lawyers that are willing to take these cases Or other information so that it makes it as Easy as possible for people to go forward or Yeah, I I guess I appreciate your point about it being both intimidating and expensive That's a great idea. Um, and I know that the pride center does offer legal counsel To people and they have several lawyers that are not Just on staff or not on staff but are part of their board of directors and many times We stop short with saying oh, let's put a package together that would would help this because we don't see it every day But sometimes we do see it every day and sometimes people just aren't aware Uh, that there's resources or places to go or people available To seek that recourse. I think education On all levels within the community within my community and the resources that exist now would be a really good idea Thank you well, uh to martin's Uh point about civil versus criminal and Uh, I was thinking the same thing as barbara As far as restorative justice We use that as a discipline model in schools now Not all of the schools are doing it But at the the last school boards association conference We had uh, several school districts bring their model for restorative discipline To the conference. So we're doing that at let's say the education level and It's been incredible having students involved in that process Because they're learning a different way to deal with everything So it would make sense to me if there is a way for us to embody That as another part of the continuum of options You know that are available For discipline And education basically it makes sense to me But uh to your point name it name it Yeah, exactly Get the possible, you know gotta figure out how to do that Eat your comment on this The purpose one of the purposes for this provision in the last provision you can talk about protection That's harassment essentially is a situation where somebody is running into these problems and And you don't find that you have You get appropriate from your perspective Relief from from law enforcement because it could be because the criminal Side of hate crimes, bias, mortgage crimes, etc. It's a much higher Bar to to hold somebody criminally liable there's also tighter restrictions as far as what behavior can constitute a crime If you run into constitutional problems and the fact that it has to be a true threat for for Certain kind of harassment to raise to the level of the criminal Offense so this is put in here to try to give an additional Avenue for an individual who's faced this kind of harassment and Nothing happens in the criminal justice system And we also specifically put in The reasonable attorney's fees and costs to try to Because I understand going to court is a pro safe way because difficult We can't really in a civil action offer your Attorneys that really anybody just that that's not something that the state can find But putting that in is is intended to hopefully be able to get something to help in this civil Contact so you know so that's the concept behind that I mean, I guess I if you comment on Whether this is valuable to the community having that separate Avenue to try to get some to get some justice outside of the criminal justice system That's a great question. Um My thought goes to both the the victim and the perpetrator and the socioeconomic spectrum that we're looking at within the context of our state and not Anybody else out of here, but Let's just say that's not realistic. Isn't isn't the judge a lawyer? Can he offer a different? Path restorative justice being one of them Some sort of diversion that allows For no lawyers or money involved, but yet provides an answer or solution Without the added cost or burden of him to go to court and prove All that maybe it's it's very simple or very cut and dried. I know that Yeah, I mean, I think there's a couple and again, we'll get some attorneys to But I think there's injunctive relief is available. It's possible the court, you know, I'd like to understand from the court or attorneys who are dealing with this more directly What kind of injunctive relief could be offered? But there's certainly one of the civil laws who brought there's an opportunity for Settlement as well and certainly in the settlement context it could be It would be to go and restore the justice for But I'd like to you know, we'll certainly look for testimony from some folks who are In the court system on that You know, I don't know if we're going to change or disincent behavior through this law I think we're still going to see these crimes Both reported and perhaps even on the rise given the current climate I'd love to see something that May gave people a heads up saying, you know, if you do this you're screwed or this could happen But there's no No way to put it ahead of when this crime happens. It all comes afterwards Yeah, this is really I think centered on giving In that context, yeah this works Appreciate it So so I guess as we look at that Spectrum of witnesses we might want to have the Vermont bar Come in I carry a bunch of these cards with me Because every once in a while you run into a situation where a constituent, you know has a problem and You're not offering legal, you know advice, you know, you just say look It would be handy if you speak to a lawyer and and they have this system, you know, and They do a lot of pro bono work and You know, it's kind of the Vermont way So and and I'm I'm proud of the fact that our bar association, you know, like has this You know this tool, you know for Vermonters who Don't have another way And they kind of feel up against it and then this can kind of help so That goes back to that thing that barb bought up about the kid You know, and I think that's one of the things that it's nothing we can put in a bill or anything else But it's one of those recommendation things, you know to our advocates as far as their pages go You know, they need to kind of build in to that That capability what to do with You know And and what the options are and resources are I think that's how If we just say it and call it out, you know, it might be helpful You know, because I I know I'm going to mention it to a few of the other groups we've been working with I don't know Good to join forces now Happy to sit down with it Yeah So you I think you were right to say that typically our restorative justice practices are in the context of crimes and Hormone justice, but I don't think that means that you can come up with an idea about Fuddling people who commit violation of this new section or maybe the hate crime section to restorative justice center And you could broaden their jurisdiction here or to interact with offenders So it would be more of Looking at the Statute with respect to the instead of what restorative justice can do as opposed to something in here. I think both Yeah, I mean, I think on the Am I right that on the criminal side of this that avenues over there? Yes, that is correct And in fact, we automatically divert as you know, we automatically divert young people Right Great to get restorative justice in Thanks, everybody. Thanks. Good to see you Do we have a list of who's coming later? Is We're starting back at one