 अद था. वी अद शौग विगनेग दरख़ी है. रितन खान्र अग्र अग्र जाए खुड़ा प्रन्गेग शुझंग साथ बाख. और जो जो लोकेग लितन भाए के तो लग बडा नियूज घैना. कने न नमवर होते बहग बो नमवर में दर वतादो हम तो. र Jobs cobra वन करना और कध ज़ॉजेशक करते की के और तरगीत, ओू़ब से फयने पीजग़ कर से, noes इकोरनमा देँशा येश STEM थो ़ॉफस śmैंसा औची के p फयने देशा लग़ लाईद नीq बार क्स करडेन थे में तुx, ृ भिक रवा श्गाँ सवता लगाठा good it will revolve around impact investment and we have these amazing, amazing exports with us. We have Rithin Agrawal, co-founder of FundWise, Kiran Reddy, managing director at Helm of Eight, Prachi Jain, director at AWE Funds, AWE is Achieving Women Equity, Sai Kumar, senior portfolio associate at UNUS Social Business, then we have Shiddhatsthivari investment analyst at Startup Monk and Rithin and Kiran, I got connected to them during Misfits event, Sai and Prachi Jain are new, I got connected to them through some references and Shiddhatsthi, I got connected in one of our previous panel discussion. So, and I'm grateful that I'm connected to such potential people, such amazing minds. So, yes, quickly jumping on our today's topic, which is impact investment, all about impact investing. So, if I talk about, because we start everything with the definition part of it, what part of it, what is impact investment. So, I'm not very much into this field, because again, Abhijeet had to host this event, I just jumped in because he's not feeling well. And so, if I talk about the Google definition or a particular definition of impact investment, I can say impact investing, impact investment, it is the investment that is made into companies, organizations which funds with the intention to generate a social impact, a measurable social impact alongside a financial return, just the Google definition I can say. So, it provides capital to address social or environmental issues, right. Now, this is my definition because I'm very new to it. You guys are into impact investments, you guys are into investments. So, I would like to know your views around it, what are your understanding because you are into this. So, I'm very much sure that there will be no bookish definition here, which may be interesting you would know or you would tell me about it. So, we can start with maybe Prachi. Yes, we can start with you. Okay, hi, thanks for this. So, I would say impact investment is not a new term which is being coined. Am I audible now? Okay, yeah. So, I'm feeling impact investment is not a new term which is coined just now, it's something but I think people have started thinking about impact investments in a very, very positive way. And it has kind of become a talk of the town where everybody is talking about impact investments. I have already worked for an organization called SEAF and we were impact investors and we literally started India's first food and agribusiness fund wherein we used to invest in companies which also kind of impact, have a social and developmental impact. ESG has always been a very close to our heart. So, we started doing ESG reporting for our portfolio companies since 2010 onwards when people were not even talking about it. And so, yeah, so that's impact and impact involves and capacity among itself. Lot of terms, it's clean energy, sustainability, water, clean tech, gender lens impact investing, social investment, social entrepreneurs. Anything which in turn gives back to the society is impact for me but I would also say because you're adding a word investment to it and I've been always been a commercial investor, I would always put a lens on my eye and see that whether that impact investments can give me commercial returns because when you combine both of them that's where the demonstration impact or effect comes in. And that in turn mobilizes and catalyzes more capital to this particular impact investments. So, I think I'll keep it short and there are more people to answer so that's kind of I would say a very larger broader definition of impact investments and AWE per se I will say is a gender lens impact investing fund which invests in innovative enterprises that promotes gender balance by investing in women owned and led and influencers. Okay, okay that's great to know. Thank you Prachi for your words and then let's head over to Kiran please. Go ahead. Thanks. And Prachi is always a delight to hear from you. I love your articulation and I think you've taken most of my points for my kya hi batal. But to be very honest and fair I think I will talk about what is social entrepreneurship because that's where I think the impact investment ends up being received by. And the social entrepreneur in my definition is someone who's trying to solve a social problem with the sustainability that basically is not just dependent on external investments but it's got some kind of marketplace access. This is a very loose for profit purpose definition. Say for example if there is an NGO in Kashmir that's working with women children, girl children. For me that guy is a social entrepreneur because he's trying to solve the social problem in Kashmir using a non profit. So there I would say a non profit category comes in and what would be impact investing here is how do you build capacity of that organization to be able to be more resilient and also less dependent on philanthropic funds. And I think there are different models of revenue that can be explored impact investment I think the two words I like to use is financial ROI and social ROI. Prachi mentioned something called ESG for the viewers that is environmental social governance indicators so basically for every profit that you generate, you also put a lens of what is your environmental social and governance impact. So that's a little bit for now but I think we can open up the conversation for other people. Can I tag someone please. I tagged a shitage. I haven't heard him I'll save written for the last because the number my boss bureau so he should have the last. Thanks for tagging me Kiran and thanks for throwing the question. I'd like to add my two cents so Prachi and Kiran you both have covered some of the most important aspects of impact investing. For the audience who are not from the investing background I just like to clarify a little bit that impact investment because it has the socio economic impact involved in the business. People always tend to confuse it with philanthropic funds right so this is not a charity this is not a donation. There is an ROI associated with it and that's why the word investment should actually be written out in bold with an underlying highlight that it's an investment we are not giving you funds just to have fun with it. Just because you're solving a social problem and we feel very close to you and so on so forth we do feel for the business that you're doing but at the end of the day we are investors. So just my two cents so yeah sure you're solving a social or economical or environmental impact sure but it's an investment so use it wisely and when you speak to an impact investor show that you can scale the business it can sustain over long periods of time. While creating like Kiran put it beautifully like there's a financial impact and a social impact that's my two cents and since you're playing tag I'll now tag Sai to take the lead because you want to save written for the last. Sure thanks Kiran so great I think not much to add after the three of you have have added your points but in a very short thing I think I will say that impact investing is basically two words put together that's there is purpose and there is profit. Purpose is what is what you know you could term as social impact environmental impact and all of that while the profit part is is also a very important element which which basically means it's a business that generating profits. In if you were to look at it there are some sectors which are by nature impact investing driven so anybody in the education sector is you could call impact driven anybody in the healthcare sector is impact driven but then I think what differentiates an impact a social impact business visa we commercial impact is is basically the purpose that the entrepreneur has and and I think. The intent with which the entrepreneur is actually serving that particular business. Okay we could go to we could get over to written I think everyone's waiting for the answer from you. Kiran you have put in a lot of pressure on me that's so that's like taking revenge of I don't know from where. So when it comes to impact investment I won't delve into the definition or what it is all about or what it is like but there is a very big understanding that has to be clear out there see impact investment is something like every business has its own impact right now 90% of the businesses that are coming up in the market are solving one problem or the other. So how can you say that one business is not an impact investment and the other is if I talk about Zomato Zomato is in a way impact because it has created a different kind of a food chain. It has solved a problem that people did not who could not afford or get a better meal at home they can because I am living since 910 years away from my home alone so I know that pain so for me. So for me Zomato made one of the biggest impacts the same as with uber and Ola but that does not falls into the definition of being an impact investment impact investment is that a socio economic problem that can yield a profit out there to the people running it with a motive that they have to earn profits and put it in the pockets of the shareholders. For me that's an impact investment kind of a thing because if I delve into impact every single business out there whether it's a unicorn whether it's anything has falls into the impact definition otherwise no investor puts in money into a business if it does not have an impact. Anupam over to you. Yes now thank you. Yes so great to hear such amazing definitions I can say and for people like us who are not into impact investment and who are not much aware about this particular domain. So these definitions were really helpful. Now coming back to the questions. So I would like to ask Kiran here. What is the primary driver of interest in impact investing in impact investment and what are the challenges you as a managing director of helm of eight you have encountered approaching investors for impact investment. Thanks. So for me the primary driver for impact investment is not just having the social ROI and in an economic ROI it is primarily a behavioral change or a systemic problem that means that's the way I look at like a pure definition of impact investment if I want to say is something that addresses a systemic problem or is trying to create some transformation. I think that's a key reason why I would differentiate between the work that social entrepreneurs do and general entrepreneurs creating jobs creates an impact short. But the kind of impact investment that I personally feel driven towards is the one that does transformational work systemic change work has multiple stakeholders benefiting out of this and your stakeholder engagement your whole business design your model. It has social engineering financial acumen as well as go to market activities like it's a it's a complete harness of a model that leaves the planet a better place than when we found it. I think that's one very strong motivation. Now why would people be driven to invest in this. It honestly comes down to a personal problem that someone has faced or feels drawn to it someone likes animals more than people someone likes plants more than people and animals. They're different people with different interests. So depending on that I feel that the investors are drawn to it. If I have to quickly answer the problems I face with this is the understanding of what I just said that what is transformation what is system change the kind of commitment you need. It's not an annual runway. Now today most of the sector faces a problem ki ek saal hai. We have one year in that one year we will receive money and that money has to be burnt. It has to like you know it's a one year is too short of length. Like you like get me a donor who will commit to you for five years and increase your funding year on year and like or maybe you would look at hybrid models where there is a nonprofit side. There is philanthropic funds and you have economic funds attached to the same project where philanthropy is building the base and then the business is sustaining it and then that's how you create a model. You don't see this because maybe regulatory frameworks not available. Your investor empathy is not available and I'll be very frank with you. A lot of the impact investment that happens today is not impact investing. I'll be very frank with you in my definition. It's not. It's a personal opinion. Take it or leave it. But it's basically that it's a whitewash. It is used for bragging rights. It's used for marketing purposes. People want to be seen with that narrative. When you look at it, is it a lived value or is it a preached value? Right. Like it's not do as I do as I say and not as I do. Right. Like it needs to be the other way around. So I'll stop that. But I hope people would engage me on this panel and audience and that's great. And with this, like I would like Prachi. I would like to ask you Prachi that how can you relate what Kiran just said Kiran just mentioned about impact investment about the primary driver for interest. And how can you relate all this with AWE funds working like how is AWE funds involved in impact investment and what support it is providing. Basically. So thanks Anupam. So I think Kiran made a very valid point in terms of lot of this is all about bragging and to a point I did agree with Kiran because it's all about speaking on the podium and when it's actually about working nobody is there to work on. But what I also believe in is that what we as AWE. So I'll come to Kiran Singh a little bit later I'll just explain what AWE does as as I just explained to you guys that AWE funds stand for achieving women equity fund and we invest in innovative enterprises that promotes gender balance. We are India's number one gender lens fund because we are someone who believe in creating an ecosystem for women entrepreneurs. Our thought leadership came from our managing partner Seema Chaturvedi who has been phenomenal in terms of doing work for women entrepreneurs and we run a program called RSV wherein it we got six round of funding from U.S. State Department which which has never happened in the history of U.S. State Department. And we in turn mentored around 575 women entrepreneurs across 106 cities and 20 states covering 20 states in India which is a big number which in turn because we have a payback paid forward programs which in turn have affected as on today 6500 women entrepreneurs. And what we realize that investing in women is very different from investing in any other category right because women typically needs a little bit of hand holding. And also the fact that there are a lot of unconscious gender bias which are prevalent right and we as AWE funds understand all those things and we try to try solving those problems in a manner that it becomes easier for women entrepreneurs to reach out to us. And I think that's where we also feel that there is lack of fund managers. I mean if you see the percentage the fund at the VC level there are only 17% fund managers who are women which in turn percolates into the fact of the unconscious gender bias which is prevalent at the fund side which in turns converted into less than 2% venture capital equity being provided to women entrepreneurs in U.S. I'm not talking about the India number. So I think that is something which is kind of very very dismal number and that led us to the inception of AWE funds and I've quoted these numbers quite often. And I really believe that the impact which we are trying to create what you really need to understand is that when you invest in a woman you invest in a society. And so there are two levels of impact which I want to talk about which AWE funds is kind of trying to create. So as I say investing in women creates social, developmental and economic impacts and I would like to share data points because I love throwing those data points because numbers are something which resonates with a lot of people. So as per the studies women typically invest 80% back to the society as compared to 20% by men which in does helps in nation building. So I believe investing in women creates a much larger impact on economy and to the society. Second point which I want to figure out is that our Honourable Prime Minister has always been talking about the USD 5 trillion economy. He doesn't have to do anything. We just have to bring in that woman force back to work or create more women entrepreneurs and we just can achieve this number very easily. Also the fact that as per the Gates Foundation it will take 208 years for gender equality to come in without formal intervention. Having realized that we have kind of created an ecosystem for women entrepreneurs to assist a concern which we called as all foundation. And that all foundation is involved in providing a lot of financial literacy programs, edification series, marketplaces, platforms for women entrepreneurs. So this is the macro level impact which AWE fund can create. Coming to the micro level impact I would like to touch base upon the points and sectors which we as fund are focusing on. Though we are sector agnostic because there are very lesser number of funds focusing on women entrepreneurs. Our focus areas are EC tech, health tech, sustainability which includes clean tech and water, education tech and FinTech. So at the micro level we actually strictly adhere to as I say ELG which for people I would just like to say it's environmental, social and governance policies. So we strictly ask them we provide them those policies which they have adhered to. And I think for the first time in the history at least in India I believe that we have added a covenant wherein we have invested that once we are invested in your company until the time we exit out. The number of women increase be it your customer be it your employees be it your supply chain people has to increase to 10x women. So I think that's the change which we are trying to bring in. It's not easy as Kiran said that just investing will not make you do what you want to achieve. There's lot of work, there's lot of value addition which is being needed and that can only happen when you are passionate about doing it. Further I will also tell you the companies which we look at they at least meet at least 5 to 8 United Nations Sustainable Development Board which is UN SDGs. So what I'm trying to tell is the fact that as you said that the impact definition is being loosely defined that is that there are no ways we can define for some people it is A for some people it is B. But I think United Nation at least has given us a path in terms of understanding what impact investment can be. Though there are SDGs and if you are kind of following or your portfolio companies are kind of meeting those SDGs in terms of like SDG 5 is gender equality SDG 1 is zero hunger. So there is a way there is an understanding clear understanding which United Nations have provided to us and if you are falling under that category of providing I mean to the grassroots level to people I think that's where the impact which you are creating. And yeah so that's that's from my side and just to add to Kiran's point he is very right and also I would like to say written point where he says that impact is everything for me. But I think that is from an individual to individual I will not put Zomato in an impact category only I think the category I will say that it has generated lot of employment opportunities for people who were not getting employment. But if I see it as Kiran said impact in those ports impact there is no real impact I will say I will just give an example there is a on a no name basis I am looking at a company which is actually trying to help women out there in Muzapar Nagar and everybody knows Muzapar Nagar is kind of notorious for all the bad reasons right. People are women out there who are now becoming economically independent through her organization and it's a company which is for profit. They actually started with a non profit and today they have realized because they're very clocking somewhere near to a turnover they are now thinking of converting into for profit and the products which they make they are literally awesome. So this is an impact for me. I mean I'm sorry I'm kind of just different from you in terms of the Zomato because I have seen more of the impact portfolio companies and I know what kind of impact or a company which is actually trying to bring in I will just take one more example. A company which is they are trying to improvise the soil what do you call it nutrient capabilities where by the product which they have come up with it's it's more like a culture and you don't have to do anything what you actually have to do is put that product I mean it's more like a manual into the soil and the soil nutrients are regenerated automatically and the land becomes organic land and it is free from all chemical fertilizers pesticides because we are all eating Pachara food is what I know because unless you even organic in India is not organic you really need to know it's a process so so these are the kind of impacts which I really believe will make an impact and this is what I am looking for. From AWA Portfolio company of course the top top is gender lens investing is what we are looking at so yeah so that's from my side I have taken more time but yeah. See Prachi that is what I was trying to say from my point that people look at every business as an impact but the exact textbook definition of what an impact investment is which Kiran was pointing out that it's more of a pump and show kind of a model as a marketing gimmick. But it's not truly an impact. See businesses like which are working towards employment for the people who have never been employed who have never seen what a word employment is. There are we have a couple of companies which are dealing with educating the people who don't even know what even in today's world even in UP or in the northeastern reasons who don't even know what is a phone. What is a basic phone not I'm not even talking about a smartphone. So that's the kind of an impact that that needs to be termed as an impact investment. But Kiran I won't take names as you didn't you didn't want it to but the investments that are happening in the name of impact they are not impact. Yeah. And I would just like to tell just one more point I want to add is that it is kind of even the likes of Zomato since you specifically mentioned that companies they have bought in behavioral change at Kiran rightly pointed out which is equally important for making that impact. Right. I mean flipkarting out of the we would have never bought anything online. Right. Forget about the numbers. Right. Forget about the numbers. Forget about the valuations for the time being part of profitability and valuations unicorn status. Forget about them for the time being. They bought in the much needed behavioral change and that's why we respect them for that. I think that's the only thing I want to talk about. And I would also say that there are a lot of foundations like Suzan Dell Foundation etc which came to India because of startups only. They were they were only doing philanthropy work before but they actually started looking at startups who were actually making an impact. So we would also have to appreciate that these companies coming to India gave them away. Right. If we were to talk about Zomato and impact I just like quickly take this 10 seconds and give them a playbook and say that you know take care of that food waste. Don't let it turn into methane and pollute our carbon dioxide emissions. Like if they were doing that I would call them social impact. If they were changing packaging and food wastage and like eradicating hunger if they were consciously looking at this model I mean it's easier to comment on the sideline. Maybe a competitor would come today or tomorrow who would actually do the change like that. Absolutely. And can I look at the first one and send them towards to get funded. Yes what an amazing discussion going on and yes with this like Prachi talked about social and economic economical impact. So I would like to ask Shatil Share what what's your take on social and economical impact and what support do you provide beyond investing beyond investments to your portfolio. And if you and yes there's a question in the chat section to if you would like to take that up it would be great. All right so yes a bunch of things to answer. So before I answer your question I'd like to build on to the this kachra food aspect that Prachi brought up it resonates with me quite a lot because just yesterday I was having a call with my family back in India and I brought up this discussion about the health benefits of avocado and asparagus. My father listened to me very patiently but he asked me one interesting question that blew my mind so where do I go in the market to find them and I was like oh that's interesting I never thought of that because I have a little like 10 steps away from my house I go and get a piece of cake. In India you probably have to look for one fancy reliance store that's probably selling this for 10 X the prize and then you're left with the kachra food at the end so that was that. Now coming back to the question of what we do at Startupmong beyond providing investments so unlike AWE funds Startupmong we are an advisory firm as well. So other than providing investments we also provide support like idea validation evaluating the business plan preparing and polishing the pitch deck preparing financial models digital strategies which means helping people create founders create the creatives for establishing a digital presence and we also have an extensive social media presence so we use it to give them shout outs and help them gain exposures on digital platforms to our own PR channels. So we're basically grooming the first time founders from start to finish so it's not just providing the money but also preparing them from the idea stage to go to market strategy. Having said that I'd also like to bring up that we've also recently launched Startupmong network fund which is basically connecting the first time founders with the right investors so we are creating a pool of investors and we are taking in the founders who are reaching out to us and we are trying to do the matchmaking of sorts between the right founder and the right investor. So we are trying to be the like a one stop solution of short sorts to try and connect the to simplify the ecosystem for the first time founders because they're kind of confused between you know I have an idea but I don't know like it has been discussed already we are already debating whether this qualifies as an impact or not an impact or which kind of investor do we go to and whatnot so we as an advisory firm we try to simplify this as much as we can. Having said that we are sector agnostic which basically means we don't focus on ag tech or deep tech or anything of that sort. But also we are not either only focusing on impact or non impact so we are open to suggestions because we have a pool of investors so we have the flexibility of operating in the bigger umbrella. So if we have a founder reach out to us with a particular business proposition and if there is an investor interested in investing through us through our network fund we connect them and then we help negotiate the conversation in the sense that the founder is not standing at a black hole. We guide them how to do the things right. So that's that's what we are up to at the stock market. And you also mentioned there was a chat question. Are you referring to Ravi Kumar's question I guess Ravi Kumar's question. So Ravi Kumar says I'm from green techies recyclers private limited and the mission is manufacturing green building materials from waste plastic by empowering rack pickers to create sustainable infrastructures. Okay. I want to know at what stage we should connect for the investment we have developed our MVP and I'm going for the pilot project at this stage what should we do. So typically for an investor MVP is very promising. I'm talking about my point of view. The others are welcome to pitch in because like I said every investor has a different mandate on how they operate. Since you're going for the pilot project I'd recommend that you go for it. Show some traction and initial revenue because you don't want to cook up numbers especially if you're going for impact investment you won't have the data on the Internet to give you some numbers to extrapolate on. And like Prachi I'm a researcher and I believe in data and that's why I became an analyst because I want to find anomalies in the data. And I can easily identify when people have cooked up numbers and that's why do not do that do. So there is this professor in Stanford and he's also working at Google as an innovations agitator. He has this word he calls it Yoda which basically means your own data. I really love this term because you're not administering surveys to people to say oh I'm coming up with this idea for empowering rack pickers. Would you like to be a part of that. Sure they're going to say yes because they have no skill in the game. But when you actually go to them and you say OK now I have a pilot. Would you like to fund me half of the people are going to back off because suddenly there is a string attached to it. Right. So don't go for these kind of speculative data get real ground data on hand data that you get from your own pilot project. And then approach an investor to say OK this is where I have I have an MVP. I have a pilot project running and explain your feedback. Sure you're going to have feedback. You're going to have certain problems that you saw certain problems you've left out for the future. So explain future projections explain the stages in which you're developing your business. And then you're more than welcome to submit a pitch deck to any of the founders in the panel or anyone that you see is more relevant to your business. One thing you could also kind of when identifying investors you could also look for their portfolio companies to see if somebody is already invested in either your sector or a similar startup. Because they'd be more than likely to hear you out like what is something different that you're doing. If sometimes you think that that's not feasible just broaden your search and you know try to reach out to investors and see what the take is on such an idea. Now with that I leave it to the other panelists to pitch in and try and see their perspective. Kiran you raise your hand so go for it. I thank you. Thanks. So I just want to address Ravi Kumar that like I think it's a great idea. But I think that maybe there is a little bit of a design thinking that's required primarily to understand that you need the plastic you don't need the rack pickers. Yes the rack pickers exist but the social engineering that exists at the grassroots level because of the impoverished conditions of our society that like one kilo of plastic costs like whatever X number of rupees at the Radhivala and then the Radhivala sends it how much of it ends up in the recycling plan I think we are pretty robust as a society when it comes to our trash transformation that less plastic reaches the landfill because of these rack pickers. And the conditions in which they exist if you want to create a business narrative. The first problem I would actually solve is our builders going to use my material because that is your fundamental problem. We've looked at renewable materials from renewable sources and how it solves the carbon problem and how you can have a negative carbon footprint by using concrete. This is an interesting space. I'm not saying no but I just invite you to go back to the design thinking board and figure out your problem. The social engineering required for rack pickers you are better off getting and sourcing that plastic which is available at a very cheap and nominal cost. You don't need venture capital money to procure that material you will need the money for what purpose because you will need to convince the builder. How will the builder get convinced that is the problem statement that I would ask you to focus on more than is the plastic available and of course your product itself the R&D and getting it through the compliances and all the different checks and balances. That would be my two cents to you on your project. Great to hear that and I hope Ravi has got his answer. If I may just add there, this is Sai from YSB. So we do have one in our portfolio like Siddhish mentioned that you could look at portfolios and I think that's where you could get some ideas. So we have one such venture in our portfolio which is Waste Ventures. It's based on a Hyderabad. But of course this is not something probably they do a lot of what you're trying to do but they don't do exactly what you're doing. So their model is to help impact the livelihoods of these rack pickers and once the waste is collected from the source then they're allowed to go back to their go down, to mitigate this and then send it to the recycling plants and reduce it from going to landfills. So there are a lot of these recycling or rack picking focused firms out there. So I can name a few others. There is Sahas Waste Management in Bangalore. There is also a foundation plus profitable venture called Hasirudhala Innovations. So you could look at these guys. A lot of them have not focused on, they are still at the start which is looking at empowering livelihoods of these rack pickers and trying to just segregate the dry and wet waste. And to Kiran's point yes we have, I think we have improved our processing in terms of waste management pretty significantly in the recent past. But your idea from waste, can you make something that a builder accepts for including it into building material? I think that's something that you can maybe bounce off with any of these portfolio companies also and that will be a better way to look at it because they have experience in handling all of this. Okay, great, great. So with this to you, Sai, I would like to add on another question. So we are talking about impact investments impact bonds. So how much ROI, how much return on investment do investors typically seek in impact bonds, in impact investments? Sure, okay. To clarify or to make it very simple impact bond is something that was launched let's say in about 2010 kind of a time frame. This was first launched in the UK where there was something to do with what they call recidivism that is basically reducing the or improving the ability of somebody who is a convict once they come out of the jail to reduce the rate of crime for the second time or the third time whichever way it is. So that's where impact bonds first started off. It started off in the UK went over to the US and today it's in a lot of sectors. The first impact bond in India was something to do with educating girls in Rajasthan to ensure that there are not many dropouts, things of that sort. Coming to ROI, there's no clear cut template or you know a standard format. So impact bonds are very, very, very niche and specially negotiated bonds because it solves a particular purpose and it's meant only for a particular purpose and the metrics that they need to meet are very exclusive to that particular bond. So there are bonds. So just to give an example, the first bond that was there and that was started off in the UK this was in 2010, 10, 12 time frame that had a return anywhere between 3 and 13 percent. Now, of course, it varies from country to country. It also varies from the situation or the intent with which the impact bond is oriented towards in India. And the one other thing is typically people don't give you the ROI so directly it is more a calculated thing. So it could be anywhere in the range of, so I've seen impact bonds in the range of 7 to 12 percent. There's one other thing maybe that I could talk about which is, which I know Michael and Susan Dell Foundation is doing in India, which is that, so how does the impact bond work? So if there's a person who invests the upfront capital, so in terms of Educate Girls DIV which was the first one in India, so UBS Foundation invested the first working capital or the risk capital. There were certain agencies which undertook the actually getting it on to the ground and then there was Goldman Sachs, sorry, there wasn't Goldman Sachs in the first one. There were other institutions which would pay if certain success metrics were met. Now in MSDF case, it's slightly different. So MSDF is actually giving out loans which have a particular rate of interest which is fixed. So it has the fixed component and the variable component. The variable component can come down if certain success metrics are met. So there are both sides of it. One is the outcome side. One is what MSDF which is pretty innovative in itself is trying to do in terms of rate of interest on the bond itself. So yeah, it's not a very open number and it's very special and needs to each product or each project undertaken. So that's my answer to that question. Anupree, just to add, I've seen few wants like he spoke very well explained, I will say Sai in such a limited time about the DIBs. So just to tell you that a lot of times like he mentioned about UBS. So these are, I mean, they do a lot of philanthropic work and a lot of times their ROI is not in terms of number. Their ROI is in terms of the outcome. So if you are achieving those outcomes, so in all these investments when it's a pure social investment without any, which is more on to the philanthropic side rather than on to the investment side, I will say, what a donor want is primarily the outcome based results. So there is a lot of reporting which goes into this entire process and the way we do the CSR in simple terms, if I can explain to the audience out there, like every year a company in India, if it's exceeding a particular threshold limits of a turnover, it's a 2% of the profits they have to transfer to a corporate social responsibility initiative where they have to undertake a project. But now what the government has done because there are a lot of issues pertaining to that is they have attached to it. What are the conditions, what are the outcomes, what are the reporting which you should be getting to whomever you are giving that funding. So you know where that one, every penny is being utilized. So it's not as I said that it's project to project, it's not about the number of ROI that percentage, but it's more about the outcome which is coming out of it. Okay, so yes it was informative and great to know about the history and working of impact bonds, I can say. So with this heading over to Rithin, see I know you and Hina in FundWise are helping early state startups get ready for investment. So what kind of gaps would startups usually show and how did you, how did FundWise helping them fill those gaps? Okay, so Anupam, I would give you a brief about what has been happening here at FundWise and that's how we have evolved over this time period as well. Because we have also learned a lot from the market because if you don't learn now how can you help something out. So when we started FundWise out our main motive was to create a difference, difference as to how the startups are facing issues. Everyone thinks about the problems of the investors that investors are not getting the right product, they are not getting the right revenue, they are not getting the right outcomes out of a situation. But our focus went on to that why startups which have a tremendous product or a good team, a great vision and a scalable thing but they are not getting the funds. So there were a couple of things that we found were missing and one of them was that they were of a problem that they could see that the team is there but the team does not have 10 years or 15 years or a 25 years of experience. So the investors are not taking them seriously or there can be a problem that they were a team of 5, they were a team of 10 but now they have to manage 50 people out. But there are not people who can establish a culture of betterment or a culture where everyone can work together out. So the first of the problem that we faced was having a culture in the whole organization as to what are their ethics, what is their beliefs. What are they going to actually do apart from earning money, earning revenues, capturing the market. There has to be something internally also otherwise you cannot go big. See a 5 people can create a revenue of 10 crores in a year or in 2 years but when you have to break that wall of 10 crores or 15 crores you have to hire more people. And more people means you need to have a culture in the whole organization. Apart from that we have faced the biggest problem whether it's an impact, whether it's a non impact, even if it's a merger or acquisition or anything out there, the valuation is the biggest challenge. A lot of startups come up that we have a tremendous idea, that's the new Amazon, that's the new Ola or something like that. And they overvalue themselves greatly. The market is not ready for something like that. Investors are not ready. So you have to plan your rounds in a way that whether in 24 months or 36 months you are planning to go for a series A or B. So you should plan yourself in a way that by the series A you don't dilute more than 35% which is the ideal that we believe into. So why not go for a smaller valuation today and get some money, get that traction running. Go for a fundraise every 6 months rather than going for 1 for every 1 year or 2 years horizon. Why are you doing that? Because no one is going to give you that valuation. Break your round. So that's what was the second challenge. As Shriti said that he has an eye for numbers. He knows what is cooked and what's not. If I am sitting at a 1 crore revenue and if I am projecting that by the end of 5 years I am doing a 1000 crores revenue. See, it can be plausible. It can happen. But for giving that 1000 crores I would say that show it for the next 2 years that this is what we can envision. Achieve the next 6 months target then make it to 3 years. That would an investor would love to see because there you can say I can do by the end of 5 years 1000 crores revenue. Because now they can see the growth pattern that is happening. If you are putting in 1 crore rupees today and generating a revenue of 10 crores out of it by utilizing that. So tomorrow you can directly say to an investor, give me 2 crores I will take the revenue to additional 20 crores. Because you have proved that track record. So if you are promising at that point that by investing 2 crores we can go multiply revenue to 40 crores. An investor would believe in you because you have proven that from 1 crore you can get 10 crores. So this is something we have seen so far. And because of that we started our mentorship program where we have got 50 plus mentors on board. Who are not just founders of different startups. Like typically everyone feels that they are the right people. But who are there in the industry from the past 20 years, 25 years or who are like maybe industrialists from small places. But running a multi million environment out there. Because they know what are the nitties and gritties and the challenges that comes to a situation. There are people who have been valuer for all their life. Maybe not directly in their jobs but they have done valuations. They can do valuations like on the back of their hand. So those are the kind of people that can add value to a business like that. There are people who have joined fintech or edtech or these kind of companies as an investor, as an advisor at some point. And they have seen that journey growing because as an early stage investor or a mentor provider. Because fund wise is not a registered accelerator but we do give every service that an accelerator gives. So we have seen that early stage startups whether run by 25 year olds or whether run by 35 year olds or 45 year olds. They are kids. They know nothing about it. You have to literally hold their hand and guide them for a while. Otherwise they would face issues. So if you talk about problems from an overall perspective these are there. But specifically social or impact investment criteria. I would say that as Kiran said in the starting the biggest challenge is to make the investor understand what they are trying to do. What is it going to bring a change because it's not always about money in the beginning. It can give you money one year or two years down the line. But in the initial 90% of the impact investments take up money. For the initial first one to two years and then they give out the revenue. Even the revenue not even I'm talking about the profits. So that's the biggest challenge that we have seen so far when it comes to impact startups. Apart from that a lot of startups that have come our way who are social or impact based. They have seen that a lot of people have made them promises. They have been boasted about they have won a lot of awards and everything. So they have overvalued themselves a lot and they are not understanding that the market or the investor needs something different. They are not concerned about what awards you have won or the CM or the PM or a minister of some state has given you tremendous recognition. You have got your photos in different different newspapers different different peers. They are not worried about it. They want to see that what can you do and one of the solutions to that is the same. I am not remembering who mentioned that that I guess Kiran mentioned that every year someone pumps in money the same investor. So for an impact or a social investment an investor who can do the follow up rounds is the ideal one. Or someone who is looking at quick exit in the next round and someone else can buy the equity out of their hands. So that's what I would say the challenges and the things that we have faced. Thank you. Thank you for mentioning the gaps and hope the audience is listening carefully and hope they will be implementing this. And yes audience dear audience please the floor is open. If you want to ask something if you want to share your views on anything on impact investment specifically please raise your hands. I'll unmute you. And with this I would like to ask Siddharth and Sai if they like if this support or if this second what Rithin just mentioned about the gaps that startups usually show. And yes please go ahead to pitch. Let's start with you. And also with this I would also like to add on another question that how do you plan to measure your investment return on your investment ROI return on investment. So very short answer to your second question first. I like to do things maverick way so I'll answer the second question first. It's very straightforward because we like I said we're not focused impact investors. We are let's say to some extent conventional investors. So we focus on the valuation of the next round. That's our ROI very straightforward very simple answer. Now going back to your first question and whether or not I second written the answer. Well apparently it has been brought to my attention that he has too many zeros in the valuation and the things that he started. So I cannot pick a fight with him also be alive. No just kidding. I definitely second what he mentioned. Ever since we announced the start of my network fund we have been getting so many pitch decks that we review every once in a while. Some of the biggest patterns that I see I'm a sucker for patterns. So I try to analyze what are the gaps that we're noticing. So the first time founders like written brought up they forget the finances the projections the traction and the revenue. They focus more on the accolades and I have seen so many of them and I'm like OK if I was a layman. Sure I would be fascinated that you got an award from the CM the PM or whatever even an IS officer in your domain or district magistrate whatever. But as an analyst that does not mean that I'm going to suddenly cut you off a blank check or whatever amount that you asked me for because just because you want an award. I don't know what that translates to and how you're going to use the money that you're asking for investment right. Another thing that I have focused I have noticed in these pitch decks that we have been getting is that people especially the first time founders. They struggle to some extent into explaining what their idea is and how they are solving the problem. They give a very vague definition. So for example if they are running a hospitality business it kind of doesn't explain how is that different from Airbnb. Like I could put up my my building on an Airbnb platform or booking.com or something like that. And I suddenly become a hospitality business. But how is yours different because now you have to manage the properties have a team in place and whatnot. So kind of explaining the mode is where they fail to some extent if I if I'm being very harsh and very honest right. So these are the kind of things that I have noticed in the in the pitch decks and also like the. The message that they send to an investor is like it starts to feel like a rhetorical like PFA pitch deck like just three words and they try to personalize the cover letter that you send to an investor. Don't just go PFA because remember every investor impact investor VC angel any sort of investor that any stage receives the hundreds if not thousands of pitch decks on a daily basis. So try and you know customize the message to the investor show that you have done the research and the portfolio and add a book like that one liner that's going to get their attention. Even in the subject line even in the body don't just go PFA I mean sometimes I even found emails that just talk at PFA I'm like PFA what of a letter I don't know what you're giving me as an attachment. So that's that's basically you're dropping your own chances of an investor ever bothering to either open your email or your attachment. So don't do something like that. Yeah I mean like like everything mentioned completely fairly and I completely agree to what he said. Do do the MVP do the projections and build them on the data that you have and then don't try to go for like 10 years 20 years long term projections. shorter projections are more concrete because based on the patterns that you're showing it's easy to interpolated for like one year six months or something like that. Rather than to say oh exponential growth in the next five years exponential based on what if your current traction is like linear growth suddenly doesn't become exponential. Sorry I'm an analyst I have to believe that a linear model stays linear unless you are putting some steroids in it and suddenly becomes exponential there's no magic happening. So with that I'll pass it over to Sai. I don't want to steal the limelight. So Sai you're up. Thanks Shrithich. So I think one way that we have saved ourselves from a lot of what Shrithich and Rithin said is that at YSB we are debt investors. So we don't look at valuations we don't look at you know we don't look at exponential growth. We are not hockey stick guys we are plain simple you know you're on your if you have a cash steady cash flow good enough for us please come to us for investment we are happy. Love your investment thesis Sai really love it. And Anupam just wanted to add and I think Rithin would have been doing that to a lot of the startups which are coming his way is that because we are now regarded as third largest ecosystem startup ecosystem of the world. And suddenly everybody wants to be an entrepreneur and everybody think that their business is VC investable or VC investable. The fact is that you really got to know that not all businesses are VC investable. And that is something which I think you really need to tell the entrepreneur in a polite manner polite way because they will be disheartened you can't just say that oh no it's. Secondly what you really got to know is that just because your peer is raising funds you also got to raise funds when you have a sustainable model if your business is working if it's at a level where you are maintaining having profitability and you are able to sustain your business. Find the right time and as Rithin pointed out that it is all about valuation figure out alternative sources of funding without diluting your equity which can be either grand. There are a lot of state so just to tell you for all people out there every state have their startup sales right and there are a lot of grants the lot of facilities beaches being provided by those states. When you are at that early stage of your business every penny comes right so you have to be very mindful about the dilution because it is dependent on your valuation. And that's where I think people I mean Rithin and Shrithich are facing issues because you do not want to dilute more so what you do is you have a higher valuation. What you really got to understand is that what you really got to understand that if you really need that money what is important is alternative sources of funding first of all so that you can take your business to a level where you can actually get that kind of valuation that's point number one. And secondly I think what's important for all entrepreneurs is to understand that my company what is the optimal amount of capital which I need to raise funds. I mean there is an optimal amount you can't say I need 20 crores or I need 5 crores because under capitalized company will also not going to give any returns to an investor minded. I mean take my words because if you need 5 crores and because of this valuation game you are raising only 2 crores. As an investor I am the most sure because my company will exit in any way. So that optimal amount of capital is very very important and of course the alternative sources without diluting or capitalizing that's the best way. There's so many challenges across globally which are happening and there's so many Indian companies I remember speaking to a company and we were about to kind of come to a conclusion where we said oh hey we want to invest in you. He called me a prachi. I got $10 million grant from this particular organization. Hey I have a term sheet. I do not want anything from you. Right. That's a smart move. It's just money. Money is fungible. It's not becoming an equity debt or grant. It's the money coming into an account and you are I mean taking your business to a different level. So that's just something which I wanted to add. Yeah Anupam you can go ahead. I think we're already 8 minutes apart time and yeah. Can I quickly add my two cents before Anupam you take over. So on this note of looking for alternative funding and also not getting disheartened if you get rejected by an investor. I'd like to add two points here. I have seen this quite a lot. I've seen a lot of founders post about it on LinkedIn off and on about how they got rejected and how it's not fair and this that. So it hurts. Yeah I agree. It definitely hurts but it's not the end of the world. There are a lot of investors out there. You have to do two things at this stage if you ever get rejected. So first of all ask the investor for feedback like what went wrong. Maybe you apply too soon. Like we do this all the time. We don't just blindly reject people. We try to like a few lines of feedback whether they're missing traction whether their idea was not clear whether they should come back to us at a later stage. So we try to give them some feedback for some extent. Not every investment firm or every investor has the time to do it but at least try. So it's not the end of the world. And second like Prachi rightly mentioned look for alternative sources. If you're not able to raise angel round VC round or something like that. Look for other sources of investment to help you sustain till the time you're ready to raise an angel round or go back to the same investor for example because let's say you got the crowd funding that helps you sustain for five months three months or something like that. That period gives you some time to build upon the results you had before. So three months down the line you'll be at a much much better hopefully much stronger position to ask for the money that you did before. So keep working on yourself keep working on your ideas and remember there are a lot of options out there. You just have to keep on looking. It does hurt for a bit. Go out there drink some coffee drink some tea drink whatever makes you happy sleep over it. Look for feedback and try again. That's just my two cents. And just one line the entrepreneurship is such a glamorous word nowadays as I said you really got to understand how hard working an entrepreneur has to be and that entrepreneur when he or she become an entrepreneur there are a lot of failure stories associated with him or her and we never got to know those stories because those are untold stories. What do you really need to understand that it's not easy. It's not glamorous if there is a lot of hard work. I remember I entered the industry in 2004-5 and there was all we were used to tell that that's the only industry where you can walk. I had my office very near to Wally just to lane parallel to Wally right. And we used to be like oh wow PVC that's the place we need to be and we realize boss that's not an easy place to be in. I never remember walking at 6 o'clock we are walking till 9 10 doing all our work because I think we were the initial as I said we were a US based fund and we were doing a lot of impact and we were also doing a lot of value education for the company. We never had any time on our tables right. So it and now I think that is changed to being an entrepreneur right. Everybody wants to be an entrepreneur. Please understand it is your full time job. It's like nurturing your own baby. That's the kind of effort which you need to raise your company to build your company. So please be mindful and thoughtful. Just not it's not like it's not like that. So because you will be as I said you will be disheartened and at this stage of life we do not want and then you kind of take it out on investors stating that they don't understand and they don't understand the valuation. They are not able to understand the entire world. The PM is giving me an award. Why not you guys right. So it's a very difficult task. I'm not scaring you but I'm making you aware of the fact that especially in the social impact space where people shy away from giving you money because it is not giving you commercial returns and what is what becomes relevant is searching for the right investors. There are different set of investors. You can't go to conventional investors to fund your social entrepreneurship project. You have a different set of investors whom you have to reach out to do your search where rather than just telling that it's not happening it's not happening and it's an effort which you need so that you become a successful entrepreneur. Just an addition to what is Prachi is just mentioning. My question is actually targeted towards Sai. Sai we have all talked about equity. Really would like to me not from the audience point of view but myself also wants to understand what goes on into a debt investor if you could just brief us out there. Obviously we will get connected after the call also to discuss it. But if you could brief it up for me that what does a debt investor has in mind what's their purview because equity there are like hundreds of hundreds of people out there who know who understands that better but when it comes to debt it's a total different volume. I don't know anything about it. I know a lot about equity. I think I know but nothing about debt. So would need your overview out there. Sure. So thanks Irithin. I think just to hold on to the previous conversation that is going on I think one very useful yardstick is if you can justify to any investor what the utilization of funds are I think that will suffice. So you could forget the valuation part you could forget everything else but if you can justify if you're seeking 10 million or if you're seeking 5 million what is it going into. I hope it's not going into like increasing your paycheck but if it is if it's going for something really useful then you know you're totally justified in the valuation game and all of those other things coming back to Rithin's point Rithin I think So at UNICE social business I think we are slightly we are a different thing. We focus on the principles that professor you know Nobel laureate professor Mohammed UNICE has set in for social businesses. In his philosophy social business is one that doesn't you know churn out dividends or doesn't return money to its shareholders but rather reinvest that into business because you know as per him a charity is a one-time you know affair but social business is a cycle. So you impact 100 lives money comes back into the business you impact the next 100 lives or maybe 1000 you multiply that and you know you're multiplying business as well as the impact that you're creating. So we go very you know we basically base our all our investment criteria based on based on based on that philosophy. It's a it's it's pretty simple we don't have so as of today we don't have any complex complex mechanisms for debt as well. So it's a so current offering is a term loan and maybe a fall on working capital kind of a loan where a lot of it is based on stability of cash flows traction for for let's say two and a half to three years of proven business model where we would have evaluated of course the the usual thing that I think she does on a day-to-day basis evaluate you know that coverage what's the collateral of course professor UNICE's you know recommendation also is not to take collateral from the businesses we do not as part of our term sheets we do not say anything like you know we'll take the first lean on something we'll have the first lean on receivables or any kind of fixed assets we don't have that in our philosophy though we you know at times we have chosen to take personal guarantees of directors and founders but that's the max that we've gone to so that's that's kind of the term sheet aspect the valuation aspect of of business is purely based on purely based on more impact focus rather than financial metrics of course financial metrics is basic hygiene if if that is in place then I think a lot more focus is on the impact that the business is creating rather than you know any other thing I hope I've answered something yes that these investors can tell properly Rithin are you saying something you're on mute I'm saying that this is actually something that I wanted to understand because see everyone has their different perspective when it comes to debt so something like this is out there I should have known but I didn't knew there are two things I'd like to bring in here one is that debt is not good for early stage I think it comes when you're certain churn and maturity because otherwise it could cripple you but debt is definitely an interesting option the second one is endowments and how endowments work I think professor Eunice's model for microfinance has been absolutely inspirational from Bangladesh to almost the entire developing world has leveraged this and I mean I'm working with some women self-help groups and microfinance and how social engineering along with their ability to recover payments is actually extremely high because there's a social pressure that gets created with the culture and people are more likely to pay you back without credit these people who without credit rating because for them it's an honour it's a society thing and like the women themselves have pulled in money and their savings is being used to finance the debt requirements of those groups I think microfinance is a great learning for anyone here but the thing I actually wanted to say was how impact investing is going in a very commercial luxury sedan kind of an approach which the start-up ecosystem has been oiling and lubricating through all your every time I open my feed it's like oh I raised 100 million here or it's like 50 million there or like all of these really glamorous things like I'd be very honest like I'm very desensitised to that news I'm more aware of the violence and like you know all the other conflicts in society I'm more sensitive to that I've become desensitised to funding news in the start-up space except for Rithin because Rithin is a buddy but then when he receives such big money you're like Kiran I didn't get your text so this does not count that you are giving me plazas here I was waiting for it if you have read the news I should have gotten a text I was like bricks is there no to call us that I just wanted to add one more thing to Kiran's point wherein spoke about that debt is not for VC yes it is not for the initial state start-up but with venture capital funds coming in likes of tri-factor and few more which exclusively provide funding to companies so it's a venture debt for early-stage companies and they have their modus operandi the time limit is much broader in terms of repayment of loans the cycles are different and there are few organisations which gives loans without collateral and these are all international organisations have set up base in India to name few one of them is responsibility which give you collateral free loans on what you call it on the basis of your trade receipts or some international contracts which you have so there are lot I mean it's all on the company to explore and as I say it's like a hard working exercise I mean I always say once you are a CA you are a lawyer you continue reading the books because there is a law which is changing every year right in the same way once you are an entrepreneur there are new base which you need to figure out so that you reduce your cost of capital somewhere or the other and that's only possible nobody will come and tell you you have to have Google is available you have to have that network of people you need to talk a lot to a lot of people so that you know the right source from where you can get your funding and Sai I love your background I mean of all you have the best background where are you we are all stuck up at home at covid and you are at some pretty place so yeah like Bhithara is not doing hard work since then he kept on blanking for the longest time he was like no that's the landscape behind him poor guy is on his terrace like Bhithara this is my terrace this is my home and this is the farm behind so you could just that's lovely that's a rose garden Sai I am sitting in Delhi so I am jealous stay here I am more jealous than anybody else we are all on skyscrapers no concept of terrace out there I am in Finland it's minus 13 there is no outside everything is dead does that count where are you Shiddish oh wow so yeah I mean you are the I am having a temperature of 25 degrees so I am more jealous of Shiddish right now rather than Sai I would do anything to treat the temperatures right now I am so happy grass is always greener on the other side unless you know the true story the green side the grass is greener there yeah that's true okay one point Anupam before totally agree to Prachi's Kiran's point that that is not maybe a viable option or a good option at the inception and that's also why YSB takes like a track I mean evaluates a track record of at least two and a half years before giving out a loan but then to all the enterprises out there who are seeking sources of capital just to let you know probably you all know this but just to let you know Rithin, Prachi, everybody's cost of capital and the valuation that they charge is way way way costlier just come back to YSB this is cheap money it was not way into picture business no no I totally agree Sai great so as for your as per this discussion whatever I understood I can say clear measurement standards high-grade operations specialized products and more training for entrepreneurs can make impact investing a more influential practice right so with this like again we are running out of time so quickly I would like to hear quick closing thoughts from all of you so because it would be an add-on to this event so we can start with Shatish please go ahead so yeah I mean in closing I'd like to say this is the first conversation panel discussion that I'm having or focused on impact investment I joined the startup monk about two months or so ago I've been doing my background research for quite a bit so by profession I'm a robotics researcher but there's data analytics and identifying these cooked up data and all of these things it happens in robotics robots give us cooked up data all the time and it goes back into bushes and people are asking me where they're going to lose their jobs I was like no my robot doesn't go in a straight line so forget about but coming back to the point this discussion was pretty informative I would say at least for me I believe the audience would agree as well it's my first ever interaction with the funds and Prachi and Rithin and inside who are focused on impact investing I've been dreaming about impact venture with my father for a while now we'll talk about this of this call at a later point but that's where I got interested into impact investing myself it's for a zero waste farm so no more kachara food for anyone that's the idea but it sounds all roses and rainbows at this time a whole lot of things need to be done maybe why as we would like to sponsor us to kind of save some costs before he pissed his venture already but yeah having said that I hope the entrepreneurs who are on the call they have taken at least a few cents from all the things that the panelists have pitched in there were a whole lot of useful takeaway points from this and yeah that's that's all I had to say if somebody has any specific question for me I'd be happy to take it over but I'll pass it on to other panelists to put in their last few words at this time thank you for your time and thank you for such amazing words next we can have written please go ahead so as a closing thought I would say that the impact investment companies or the funds and as well as the start-ups they should see that what numbers are out there because that plays a very important role for getting funding and as well as for running the business the impact investment or an impact company has to generate money out of their own as well to sustain in the market they cannot just depend on funding or grants or debt instruments or anything else they have to become self-sustainable at a point of time maybe in a year maybe in two years or maybe in three years because otherwise the company will fail someday or the other because not it's not sure that you would get an investment every point of time when you need it so it's not viable or advised to shut your doors every time you get on a cash crunch so that would be something that I want to say here to all the funds and to all the start-ups as well that invest in a business who knows that they can be sustainable maybe not for and they just need money for the growth and not for basically running their operations after a point of time and the same is for the social entrepreneurs as well that whenever you create your business model like Ravi asked the question so Ravi I would say one thing only if your model has a point after which you can at least sustain yourself it's a great model if it's not then like Kiran said go back to your goal and design your whole business model again I'm sorry to say it may sound a little rude but I'm questioning what you're doing but that's how the world works I can't help it because investors are ample but still a few who will believe in your vision so you need to be sustainable at a point of time great heading towards Kiran please go ahead in closing I would say that investment is best when you don't need it because that's when you're going to get the most favourable term and you will have more leverage the other aspect is primarily that the market is the best way and source for your funds and if you can try to be sustainable from day one I know it's very difficult but like there are a lot of things like you can I would say it's okay to lose time it's not okay to lose money in the beginning if you're able to bootstrap yourself it will teach you a lot more than people with rich wallets and the wallets can get emptied anytime I think you can spend like housing did with like 20 lakhs on an advertisement that says we got funded which has absolutely no respect for the integrity of the investment that they have received so basically be mindful that I think money can come and you have to figure out how it circulates and friends and family and I think if you're able to raise that and then you'll be better able to negotiate with a written anaprakshi for potential business opportunities but that's all from me okay thank you Kiran for your time and thank you for such amazing words Stine please go ahead sure so I think in substance or in closing what defines impact is basically if you're really able to create that change in someone's life or change in the systems that work around us valuations all of that come secondary I think focus is to be on sustainability of business and scalability and then probably valuations would anyway come to you and do explore alternative sources of capital equity slash debt great Sai I hope you are active on the chart section there are there is something dropped by and yeah Prachi please please go ahead so I think Shrithin, Kiran, Sai and Anupam it's such a pleasure to be on this platform I'll keep it very crisp and short being the last one so first I would like to wish you a very happy International Women's Day in advance and to all the ladies and all people all of you people's life because they are the 50% right so and they are the one who will be the change and we are the torch bearers maybe to make that change happen in some way or the other what I believe being part of a team which is into impact investment is that what you really need when you are in this space is passion everything else will follow you really because the gestation period is typically longer and you have to have that patience and perseverance in place it's not about just being as I say glamorous yes you start with that oh wow this is a fun gender fan food fan oh wow but it's not like that the journey has been really it's like ups and downs one day you are too good one day you are totally off you feel you are good for nothing you are the best so I think everything else will follow if you are true to yourself I will not talk about I have spoken everything right to conclude I will only say more on the emotional question side is that be passionate about what you are doing things will follow walk toward the skills which you are I mean start a company or any entrepreneurship where you see that there is a serious problem and you think you have this skill or you can build a team that problem right that second have that unique selling preposition for yourself which can be anything which is which differentiates you from your competitors be mindful about your competitors because I have always seen people telling that we do not have any competitors on the day they come for pitch and when you execute SHA I will get a list of 20 competitors whom I cannot sell the shares with right so and this is both from nonprofit and for profit organizations I am making this comment so be mindful because that is what going to tell you what happening in the world you cannot be in isolation without understanding your competition understanding your market or your industry so yeah I mean just do it be I mean it's okay if you don't raise funds it's okay just believe in yourself which neither you make changes in life of people it's not an end funding is not an end who knows better than us being investors because we also get funds and we also get to get those disappointments when we know that this is happening but we always have that smiling face because we can't tell them all the way the entrepreneurs can right so yeah and I had fun during the conversations with Rithin, Shrithesh, Kiran, Sai very well made points love to be in touch with you guys and see where we can collaborate have synergies so that's from my side and Anupam I should thank you for that as well so that's my closing remarks thank you thank you so much Prachi thank you for your time thank you for joining in and we would definitely love Shrithesh to see outside in the snow active panel discussion member you guys want to see me freeze you guys are the best just want to create impact that would have been one of the final discussion do I get a prize if I survive this one and a half hour conversation in minus 30 there must be some award out there we can create one of a kind award from brooks for having a panelist freezing cold for one and a half hours in minus 13 degree so you are saying that does come for an impact right thank you