 Good morning, everyone. This is Representative Carolyn Partridge coming to you from my home in Wyndham. And this is the, it's a joint session actually of the House Agriculture and Forestry Committee and the Senate Agriculture Committee. And we are being joined today by folks from the Livestock Care Standards Advisory Council. And it is February 3rd, 2021. And we welcome you all here and I'm wondering, Bobby, Senator Starr, do you have anything you'd like to add? Well, I, I would just like to welcome the Livestock Care Council to our meeting. And I think all of the senators are present. And when we do introductions both both ways and with the care board, they will all introduce ourselves. So it's a pleasure to be here and to take part in this. Well, Bobby, having said that, why don't you go ahead and I know your committee has a whole order that they go in to introduce, I'll then introduce our committee just by calling on folks and letting them introduce themselves. So why don't you go ahead. When you kick it off. Good morning again and I'm Bobby. Yeah, go ahead Bobby. No, Bobby. I'm frozen. No, you're better. You're better. We good to go. Yes. Yeah, well, good morning. And I'm Bobby stars, Senator Bobby star chair of the Senate committee. And Chris Pearson, Senator Chris Pearson, Senator from Chittany County. Thank you, Senator for Washington County. Brian column or representing Rutland County. Corey parent, I am the senator for Franklin County and Albert. Great, thank you guys. And I'm representative Carolyn cartridge I represent the towns of Athens, Brookline Grafton, part of Northwest minister all of rocking him in my hometown of Wyndham, and I will call on Rodney to go ahead. And I'm going to represent Orange one district, which is Williamstown, Washington, Orange, Brent version Chelsea. All right, and Tom, you want to go ahead. I'm Tom Bach. I represent the towns of Chester and over Baltimore and part of North. Thanks Tom Terry. And of course I represent the Addison Rutland district towns of Benson or while showroom and waiting. Thank you Terry Vicky. Good morning, I'm representative Vicky strong from Albany, and I represent seven towns in Orleans, Caledonia one. Thanks Vicky, John O'Brien. John O'Brien I represent one town in Windsor County that's Royalton and one town in Orange County that's tongue bridge. Thanks John Henry you want to go ahead. Yeah I'm representative Henry Pearl I represent the Caledonia Washington district which is Danville Peachham and Cabot. Thanks and Heather. I'll Heather super not I represent Windsor for one which is Barnard Poffert quiche and West Hartford. Thanks Heather and I'm going to ask my committee members if you have questions to use your little blue or yellow hands and Senate members I will I think we've got a screen that's small enough here everybody's on it at this point that I can see you if you wave your hands I don't know do you guys use the blue and yellow hands. You can. You can. That's helpful if you can but our real hand we don't have to use a blue hand. Alrighty well thanks for that. So why don't we kick this off. The livestock care standards advisory council was was and was something that we created several years ago Kristen will help remind me how long ago it was it was a while. We really appreciate the work that they've been doing all these years as we've asked them to look into various issues at greater depth than we potentially can. So Kristen I'm going to call on you. You're first on the agenda and you can maybe give us a little background and I have a list here of folks that we would go through. If you want me to call on them I'm happy to do that or if you want to do it. You can do that this is your time. We have about an hour so I want to make sure that we can get through everybody so that they have the opportunity to testify before potentially we ask questions we can always do follow up questions so Kristen why don't you go ahead. Thanks for joining us. Okay, thank you for having us on behalf of the whole council I know that we have many members who are present in this discussion and we have some who had either known in advance or last minute schedule conflicts and aren't able to join us. But we do appreciate the House and Senate Ag committee members taking the time in your guys schedule to talk with us I think that this meeting each year is important because we have turnover on both sides and we do have some new members on the council that hopefully you can get to know a little bit better today and then a reacquaintance with with with the more experienced members who are on the council representative purchase you're correct the council. It's in its beginnings was back in I think 2011 2012 somewhere in that neighborhood and it's been in its current format for now. It's all except for that very first year and it's a 14 member council that is chaired by currently by Diane Boffeld who's on so I in a moment I'm going to default to Diane as our council chair to manage things from here but and and what what I think is especially nice about this council and what I hope the the legislative committee members appreciate or will come to appreciate is the fact that it brings together a diverse group of you know subject matter experts and boots on the ground real people in Vermont who are who are operating and running businesses in these different sectors that have a say in or have a vested interest in animal well being livestock and poultry well being what I hope is nice for for you as committee members is that you can kind of by incorporating the livestock council into your processes and and seeking advice from us as an entire group you can then get the input of representatives from these different individuals so it can be sort of considered one stop shopping for you granted it's not fully comprehensive but it gets you a pretty good diverse perspective from a number of different individuals when you get an opinion from from the livestock council. share with Linda a couple of days ago some past examples of position statements that the council has put together at your request at the request of the of the committee chairs over the years and while we're not proposing to go over those in any detail really at all, we wanted you to have them in one place as just an example of what the council can can do for you and the service that we can provide so I certainly have enjoyed serving on this group I find it to be very encouraging and rewarding process the discussions that we have. And so I so by way of introduction of myself. Kristen has in the state veterinarian and director for the food safety and consumer protection division for the agency, and I have been on the council since its beginning and I think serve as the quasi administrative support person for it, keeping the minutes and that sort of thing and on that note we did submit our annual report for your consideration which comprises the minutes of our meetings from 2020 so you have that on file as well if you're interested in looking at that and so Diane if it's okay with you I'll turn it over to you for the mechanics of introductions and that sort of thing. Sure, I'd be glad to do that. Diane Bothfeld I'm a director of administrative services for the agency of agriculture food and markets. I am secretary to designate to chair the livestock council and have been for this current secretary as well as previous secretaries to be the chair of this committee. So I'm very pleased to do that it's a great group, lots of diverse knowledge and information that comes forward so I'll manage the introductions, and I'm just going to go using what I can see as a zoom line up and one of our newer members Christina. Ashley if you'd like to introduce yourself and your and your current work environment and why you're glad to be on the council. I'm Christina Ashley I'm law enforcement officer Essex police department I have been here for 35 years and I am a new member representing law enforcement component on this council and quite honored to have been asked to enjoy an anxious to get to know you all. Thank you Christina Tara. Hi, good morning. My name is Tara Escher and I work at any key processing where I'm kind of part of the slaughterhouse industry aspect of it. I just joined this year, so I have a lot to learn, but from what I see on a day to day basis, you know, and working with farmers, you know, I feel like I can bring a good aspect to it. Thank you Tara, Ben Noderman. Good morning Ben Noderman here at Snug Valley Farm in Hardwick where grass fed beef and passion pork producer. So I have backgrounds in both regenerative ag grazing as well as, as the pork aspect. Rhonda molly Brook farm may have frozen up a bit. Yeah, it looks like she's frozen. Yeah, maybe we want to go. Molly if you can know who is Rhonda Rhonda if you if you could turn off your video we might be able to hear you. Hey, can you hear me now. Yes, yes. Hi, I'm Rhonda Miller Goodrich. I'm with Molly Brooke farm or a small dairy in Cabot Vermont. Rhonda and next would be Steve and get yourself off mute off muted. Good morning. I'm Steve K Hart commercial dairy operation. We're an LFO with my brother Tim and Addison Vermont. I've been on the council for two years. Thank you Steve and Joanne. Hi my name is Joanne Nichols. I work with the Humane Society of Chittenden County. I'm the Humane Investigator there. I've been doing humane investigations, animal cruelty neglect work for, for the Humane Society, probably since 2007, and maybe a little earlier. I've been on the council. This is my second three year term so I think it's been probably four years now that I've been on the council. And I, yeah, I guess that's it. Thank you Joanne and Kent. Good morning, Kent Henderson. I'm a retired, a long time dairy exclusive veterinarian from Northwestern Vermont. My role on the board is my close connection with dairy farmers and long association with issues and looking at the tremendous transition that's gone on in Vermont and in the dairy industry and the issues that you folks are facing and what we can bring to it. Thank you. And representative Partridge that is, I believe all of the livestock care advisory council members. Yes, it is. Thank you Diane. Kristen. Did I miss one. No, no, no, you didn't. I, but I, I'm aware of some folks who weren't able to be on. So perhaps for the benefit of the, of the legislators we can, I can touch on who those are, if that would suit. That sounds good. Okay, great. So Ruth Bly-Weichel, many of you know she is a she is has been on the council as long as Dr. Henderson has been and she is actually helping with the COVID vaccine locations this morning so she was unable to join. Ruth has represented University of Vermont on the council. And if you guys have Rutherford might join us later. She is the owner and manager of, of, oh my goodness, Hannah variance, blanking on her business name. Anyway, she is a horse breeder manager owner runs a business in Charlotte Foxwood Hannah variance apologize that name of her business. She has a cult shipping to another state and because of weather delays that got postponed to today so she might join us when that is finished up but she is with her shipper at the moment. And then, lastly, we have Tracy web Tracy is a relatively new member of the council new this year. Tracy is with NFO livestock up in Franklin County and so has joined the council as a representative of that that sector. So, Diane I apologize for interrupting but those are the council members who are not able to be with us and Eliza might might join midway through. Thanks. Okay, fine. Okay. So the next agenda item representative partridge I think we're ready to to jump into that. Go right ahead Diane I want to just highlight the fact that when we put this this council together our goal was to have folks from a lot of different areas in the whole livestock arena, and I think you can we can see from the folks that that has been accomplished so. And I also want to say a big thank you to these folks because they're working as volunteers essentially, I'm not even we give them lunch I'm not even sure about that so. No. So anyway, Diane, why don't you go ahead. Thanks so much. Thank you very much so we've worked on a variety of projects over the years and if you if we've got something from you as a legislative mandate that you want us to work on we certainly dive into that but there's lots of different issues out there impacting livestock and well being in the state and so we have embarked on a couple of different things but right now we're working on a document brochure type for those who do inspections or not not so much inspections, they're called out to look at animal concerns and it's very difficult to, to, you know, look at a situation and determine what what the issues are and one of the things that we've been looking at closely is the body condition of the animals. So we get a lot of calls at the agency the first time it snows and horses are outside. We've got snow on them that's terrible and it depends. There's always it depends with with livestock and so the body condition score of an animal are they are they are they plump, are they skinny, are they, you know, do they have feed access do they have some form of shelter or not so all of those questions but we really are focusing in at this time on that body condition score and putting together a document to assist those who are called out to look at these animals around is an animal to skinny to fat, you know, those kind of questions so that's an intro to you Kristen for for greater detail on that, but we've been working with livestock. Joanne Nichols as well as been working with Kristen on this so I'll leave it to you, the two of you to add some better detail to that than my overview. Thanks Diane, I think so I actually stayed up past my bedtime last night and listen to the recording of the testimony that the House Agriculture Committee took yesterday on livestock shelter. Any old discussion I know that comes up every every year. So, and I believe it was representative O'Brien who referenced the fact that you have received in the past testimony from this Council and from others about, you know, wow wouldn't it be great if there was a way to, to use an assessment of direct measures for for animal welfare versus versus the environmental pieces and, and that is a that is a legislatively I understand that that is there are many reasons that why that is at best and perhaps not even possible so as a way to to kind of fill in that gap that the Council determined that and perhaps it would be helpful to develop a resource for humane officers to utilize at least making them aware of the importance of body scoring when they're evaluating livestock and poultry for animal welfare concerns and so kudos to to Ruth Bleuweigel and Joanne Nichols who have really spearheaded this this effort and if I can successfully share my screen. I didn't let Linda know this in advance so perhaps I cannot. It says host has disabled screen participants sharing so perhaps that's not going to be possible but well Kristen hold on maybe we can make that happen. Linda or Mike, is that something we can do. Should be able to make you a co host person. Yes. All right, I think they're working on making you a co host Kristen. Okay, I apologize I should have. I should have reached out to Linda about this before I've neglected to do that. So this this brochure so what we're envisioning for it is that it will be a quick reference guide to one here is what body condition scoring is about. Here's why it can be important. Here are some resources for you as a humane officer to be able to go and get more information on species specific body condition scoring, and to the extent that this helps you as a humane officer. When you're evaluating these cases here's here's perhaps a way to bring focus to the importance of body condition scoring without putting it in an actual law and trying to define and every circumstance across the entire state of Vermont. What what is acceptable and what is not so that's what we intend to use the or to disseminate the brochure as. And we've talked about sharing that not only with humane officers but also Diane and I were talking just last week about also disseminating it to towns, town offices within Vermont because there's so much variability from town to town as to who has that responsibility. So we're getting it in their hands, as well as it can be a resource for livestock and poultry owners to, you know, to let, let them know what might be assessed when, when a humane officer visits their property to, to follow up on an on an allegation so we hope that it'll be a nice compliment to the the law act that you all enacted last year. And even if that wording in that line law was to change it can still this brochure can still potentially serve as a, as a, as a standalone document. Maybe, Joanne, if, if you would like to add more on that so Joanne as one of the people who is tasked with investigating these cases, we, you know, Joanne has been involved with putting this together and looking at it through the lens of a person who might be using it on the other side of the equation. So Joanne I'll open it to you if you have other comments you'd like to make about it. Hi. So, so I find that that this is a is a good, as Kristen says a good. It's a good compliment to, to, to offer to people like myself who are in the field, who may not be as experienced as, you know, somebody who owns livestock. So, yeah, I guess I don't have that much to add to what Kristen said, other than that that it's really important and it is kind of a complex point to when you're a humane investigator or an animal control officer, or the health officer for the town to walk in on an evaluating livestock when maybe more of your experiences with dogs and cats so this is a really good way for people in my field to get more education and find out where more resources are. Thanks Joanne. Kristen, I think you're now co host so you can share. Okay, screen if you'd like. Great. So let me. There we go. All right, it's showing up on my end is it showing up for you folks. Yep. Yeah, thumbs up signal well. So this is just a, you know, one mock up. We are fortunate to have Terry Smith in the agency of agriculture, answering and our secretary and deputy secretaries executive assistant who, who also has some skills in layout and formatting so she's been helping us with this and what you're, what you're doing here is a one mock up version. If we were to turn this into a bifold brochure. We also have a mock up for a trifold brochure and really probably what it will boil down to is is the preference of the livestock council as well as how small the font has to be in this scenario and making sure that it things remain legible for for folks but what you're seeing here is the the basically the first the cover page that just you know highlights the the topic and then on the backside of this bifold would be other links that are species specific links for more information on body condition scoring short videos and tutorials that would walk a humane officer through the basics of how they might use this skill set to evaluate, evaluate animals. And then the center. There we go. The center of the brochure would would have the you know substantive information, acknowledging that there's there's way more information on this topic that people would need to know ideally as compared to what can fit in a bifold or a trifold brochure but we figured since many people are not familiar with the anatomy of poultry and and they're actually pretty easy to body condition score that having a diagram of poultry of a of a chicken or rooster, whichever, and then having a, you know, single large animal species and we use a beef cow as the representative and giving people an idea of the basic anatomy and what they what areas of the body they would either need to be visualizing or palpating or feeling in order to make an assessment and then the verbiage that is here accompanies you know those basic principles so So that's the general idea of where we are going. Again, even some of the livestock council members since I just sent this mock up to them. Last night may not have this may be the first time they're seeing the actual mock up so there's still some some work to be done on this but I would expect that within the next couple of months at the latest we could get this finalize get it to a printer and get it get it out to people. The other thing that is interesting to me or worth mentioning perhaps as we do have some of you may recall number of years ago we we did an outreach initiative where we where we developed best practices for cattle and calf transport and there was a little bit of fundraising money left over from that effort so that's what we intend and we've held on to it and that's what we intend to use to cover the cost of the printing for this brochure thinking that it is all in the same vein and and the people who donated that money would be amenable to putting it for to use in this instance. Since it also supports animal welfare and well being and improves hopefully the investigatory process so Christian this will still be this will be online as well right. Yeah, thank you good good point yes we will print we will print some but then yes this will be an electronic format that will remain and live and that will be nice because you know presumably if the links change or some other information changes that can be updated as we go. It will be it will exist in electronic format as well and be accessible to folks. Fantastic. Do you want to continue or Kristen do you want to continue. Yeah, I think that wraps up our discussion on the brochure the bill that you folks took testimony on this past week h 116. Or maybe I hopefully I've got that bill number correct act 116 pardon me was brought up in this discussion of the brochure but if there's any other questions about the brochure that we're working on prior to to moving on. Well, Diane one of the questions that was asked yesterday was regarding complaints and and farmers felt that they really wanted to know who was making the complaint. I don't know whether Kristen or you could answer that question doesn't have to be a long explanation but I know in the past it's been a source of frustration, because in the past it seems that no one particularly wanted to handle it. And so I don't know if we can talk a little bit about that before moving on but if you could that would be great. I'll hand that one off to Kristen since she manages a lot of those potential complaints at the agency. So with regard to the anonymity discussion, my understanding from talking with our with the assorts are assistant attorney general assigned to the agency because we've posed this question to her is that if someone can make an anonymous complaint. We can at the program level at the agency, maintain that as an anonymous complaint. However, she cautioned that if the complaint were to go further or end up in court, it's not possible for us to, in evidence for that, we definitely keep that anonymous like if we write it down somewhere that is a public record and we do keep records and we have to, you know, document things and so oftentimes, if a case were to proceed far enough, then that anonymity would be would be lost is what has been told to me by, by our legal, our legal counsel, perhaps the humane officers could speak from a law enforcement perspective as to how that works and in their shop and then the other thing that I would say is that, as you know, the agency of agriculture is not the entity to actually investigate or enforce in these in these cases so we provide technical assistance and play a support role to the humane officers should they ask for that assistance, but it is at their need and they as the folks bested with that authority are, you know, calling the shots with regard to, to steps in the process and final outcome and that sort of thing, the humane officers in conjunction with the state's attorneys and others in that, in that realm. And so if Joanne or Christina wanted to speak to the question of anonymity, that would be great as well. Go ahead Christina. Thank you. In terms of law enforcement get complaint issue to us. That is documented and that is available to be discovered or to be shared, you know, we understand that sometimes we don't want to get that information out of me, but that is something that really can be identified and kept away the person who's involved in an investigation has a right to ask for a records request, which would give all that information, the complainants information. We can keep it quiet initially, but at some point it would be able to be shared. I don't really have that much to add other than what Christina has added about the law enforcement piece and if somebody requests records. You know as my role as a humane investigator if I'm on scene, if I'm on where and somebody asks that question. I don't give out that that information at that time. But, yeah, as, as a case would move forward. That could come out later. Bobby. Yeah, I just think that, you know, this process is a very timely process. What we keep hearing in in the Senate, at least committee is there's a lot more people in Vermont keeping animals for food security reasons and, and I think this is a great idea about having this for sure and and the other important part is it'll help humane officers from one end of the state to be all sort of using the same criteria to judge whether the animals are are, you know mistreated or misused and so both of those things are. I think a very positive part of what two folks are all been working on in a, in a great idea. And you know Bobby I just want to add that last year we had a bill that defined humane officer, which didn't make it over to you because of the pandemic. And that is something that everybody worked on every all these different groups came together and we're satisfied with the definition. And so I think that might be something we'll send to you. I will try to send to you again, and that will help clarify who should be doing what somebody told me that you took that bill back home with you and forgot to bring it back. I think it's still stuck to our wall or something up in Montpelier. I actually think it might have been on the calendar. So, we can check, but I don't need any extra debris around this place. All right, Diane why don't you continue. So the legislative Act 116 was brought up. Are there any anything that from the testimony you heard this past week in house agriculture are there are their activities or items you'd like the livestock council to look into in that concerns that have been brought forth I mean it is an act it was enacted last session and it seems that folks have some concerns about it, testifying to you this week in house ag is there anything that you would like the livestock council to look into surrounding that act or the concerns regarding the act. I think one of the messages we took away from yesterday and others can chime in here but one of the messages was that frequently folks especially folks who are new to Vermont don't necessarily understand that animals can live outside and particularly some of the folks who do grazing and Ben might be able to want to chime in on this but that, you know, some of the requirements of that bill, create a situation that are that potentially difficult for people in particular who are grazing animals, you know in terms of being exposed to son, you know, the purpose of the bill is John O'Brien so eloquently said yesterday was really to help folks who are doing this and make it clear that natural shelter was a possibility, and that they would have to have constructed shelter. So, if we decide to go and take a look at that, perhaps, the livestock council can can help us with that way in I know that you, you all, Kristen did last session. And I think it's a good thing for the Antion to try and make it as clear as possible but if we do decide to look at it then we might need some help. And, you know, I see Rodney's hand is up Rodney. Just to quickly add to that. One of their other concerns was if they, if they use the woods for shelter that it screwed up their current use program, if they had forest and rolled stuff like that so I don't know if that's anything you want to add into that. Yeah, and I think we'll probably be hearing from Jill Remick again in the near future and we can ask her about that. And for those who don't know Jill Remick is the head of PV property valuation and review at the Department of Taxes. John O'Brien's hand is up and then I see Anthony's hand is up so John you go and then we'll have Anthony. Thank you. I thought while we had this gang on and looking back on yesterday to someone like Joanne might know that it seems like the sort of animal cruelty and animal welfare issues for livestock must run to, you know, on one side you've got this sort of red flag situations where it's either a hoarder of animals and now they got 47 horses and they've just, they don't have enough feed, or, or, you know, small backyard type things where, for whatever reason you know it's like I got to feed the kids to the animals and they just run out of money. And the animals are mistreated so you have those cases and then on the other side, what Carolyn was just referencing, and now you have, have people who don't understand livestock and are sort of fallen to the harassment side of things. So I just wanted if you aggregated the complaints, both of who's who's complaining and also what in general what kind of animals are the complaints targeted at you know is it mostly horses is it, you know, dairy cows because you might see the ribs on a jersey and it's fine. And I thought, if you had that kind of aggregation then that, that might inform, say even the pictures you put on your brochure, if there's sort of data for that. So I don't know if you want to speak to that. I don't know who wants to take that. Is that a question for you Kristen or. I think. Well, again, if Joanne and or Christina are willing. I will say the complaints that come into the agency. And again, we then refer those so so we don't keep a database on them but anecdotally representative of Brian I would say that those complaints this time of the year, mostly have to do with dairy cows and horses. I don't seem, generally speaking, very, very concerned when they see a horse in a snowy pasture without a blanket or, you know, in a paddock that doesn't have a run in shed or trees and as you heard yesterday, if horses as well as other livestock are well conditioned to the climate and the environment and are in good body condition and have adequate feed and roughage etc they do quite well so but we get a lot of drive by cell phone drive by calls. I drove by and I saw a horse in a field I didn't see any water, and it didn't have a coat on so you know this is a problem so I think anecdotally this time of the year those are the, the majority of the calls that we receive. But Joanne, if, if or Christina, they may have more accurate detailed information. I agree with you, Kristen. That is pretty much what we get historically, especially this time of the year and I just try to educate. I always speak to whoever is the owner of the animals and then get back to the complaint and to educate them so when they continue to drive by, they don't continue to call. Joanne, did you want to add to that. I would say my experience with concerns for livestock are usually are usually cattle out in the field and and horses and and sometimes sometimes there's concerns for for sheep as well. But but generally, they do come in a lot of complaints will come in when the when the weather gets extreme, whether it's really hot or really cold, or if there's a snowstorm coming in. So people will, will start calling with their concerns so so that that that's a very normal pattern. So, you know, the counties that I cover is Chittenden and Grand Isle counties. So in my experience, you know, you, I would, I would kind of have a idea of what, you know, when calls are going to start coming in what the concerns are probably going to be about if I know a snowstorm is coming or it's been snowing for a day and there's a horse out there with snow on its back. So you can usually sometimes predict these kinds of things, but then again you do have, you know, you do have the really serious concerns out there as well, when animals are not thriving. One note that I that I do want to say is is that over the last couple of years is just a little bit of a history about being a humane investigator. It used to be that complaints came into humane societies in Vermont. And over the last couple of years, I would say two or three years humane societies have pushed all those concerns now into law enforcement agencies. So, so my role now as a humane investigator, reporting law enforcement with cases. So, so plate complaints over the last few years have not come directly to me because they're all getting moved to law enforcement agencies. And there's a lot of good reasons for that and I won't take your time, why that's moving in that direction now but just just to give you a little bit of a history about my position. Thanks, Joanne. I want to call on Anthony make sure he gets his question or comment in and then here's his hand up. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I presume that you folks have heard from grazers and others who are concerned about the requirement that animals are protected from direct exposure to the elements. And that that's difficult for people who do a lot of grazing or rotational grazing and instead would bring up the elements are the sun and the wind and rain, which are elements but they're not necessarily harmful and every day basis. So you should be looking at protecting these animals more free more when it comes to like bad weather inclement weather I'm just wondering if you've heard that that it would be it's a sort of a difficult requirement to keep your animals protected from the elements whatever they are because they're so broad as opposed to just bad weather, which would make it more doable for grazers rotational grazers grass farmers those kinds of folks I'm just curious whether you've heard that as well as I have Anthony who are you I guess anybody we did hear that yesterday. And what I think the intent of the the language from last year was to make sure that animals at least could get out of the sun if it was a blisteringly hot day for instance, it wasn't that they couldn't be out grazing. So we, you know, we'll potentially take a look at that and see if there's some improvements. As I said earlier, would be potentially calling on livestock care standards advisory council for help with that. Right. Appreciate it. Yeah, thanks Anthony. Terry. Yeah, I think this, if we could kind of finalize these things as far as what the the care of the animals is and who's, who's really in charge of enforcing I think that would be a great thing. I mean, I noticed yesterday, I probably shouldn't say this but I felt the real animosity from some of the farmers that testified and the animosity was directed against dairy animals dairy cows, and they thought that they were getting this free ride. So I mean, if, if the farmers can't agree on what's adequate care for animals. I don't think we can expect the general public to, to be able to drive by a farm or, you know, a field with animals in and really know what to do. So I think, you know, as far as eliminating that part, it's, you know, the complaints are still going to be there. So hopefully, at least we can to give some guidelines to what people can do. Thanks, Terry and Kristen or Diane, you might want to hop in here. I, you know, my understanding is that there are certain requirements of dairy farmers in terms of the care for their cows. And which is one of the reasons that they were exempt from Act 116. And so any comment from either of you Kristen you're unmuted. Go ahead. Yeah, I thank you for bringing that up. I would hate for anyone to think that that or have this perception that dairy, the dairy industry and dairy cows are just off the hook with all of this that is that is absolutely not, not the case. There couldn't be anything further, further from the truth. And actually, maybe Dr. Henderson I know you've been very involved in the FARM program and have a lot of information on that and perhaps Kent could, could say a few words about that and then Rhonda from your perspective, you know, perhaps sharing what you do with your dairy animals and how you, the things that you are subjected to with regard to their wellbeing and expected to uphold, maybe that would be informative for the committee as well. But, but Kent, do you want to, does that work? Representative Partridge? Yeah, it totally does. And Ben, are you raising your hand or no. I just want to, okay, fine. I mean, I can chime in if needed, but I think the other folks are probably more suited for the dairy. Okay, thanks. Alright, why don't we go ahead with Kristen's plan. So then I'll just jump in here and I'll just say that I've got a, got a 45 year history of working with dairy farmers and really going back at least 35 years ago. The industry itself started recognizing and addressing and has really moved ahead. I recognize that good animal husbandry practices goes hand in hand with good economic results in the farm. So it's just common sense. There's been a real push on a national basis from the actual milk marketing world that are purchasing the milk from the farmers and they are laying out standards that farmers have been following. For example, Liz tail docking and whereas 30 years ago it was being advertised as something to make the milk more clean and make the barn more clean. And it's turned into an issue that it really couldn't be defended on a humane basis on treating the animals. And it was not a popular fight or statute but the milk marketing portion of the industry just insisted this cannot go on and they put that into, they put that they put teeth into that, and they won't pick up milk from farms that dovetails. And that that's just an example of how things have moved ahead in the industry. There, there's a lot of, there are a lot of eyes on this there's a lot of resources. The dairy veterinarians have been working with the farmers. We started really working on animal housing. That was one of the big things that I started working on 30 years ago. As these free stall barns were going up we knew it was great that the animals could could get up and move whenever they wanted to they could go get feed and water whenever they wanted to but where they end up proper size stall. And that's something that has been worked on and farmers realize and they're getting better production out of their animals making it more comfortable. And it's something that they're really taken off with. I think that you know the industry is very deeply into this. And so I'm thinking that the bill that you're looking at the 116 is meant for maybe a different, a different cause, then something that's as far down the road as the dairy industry is on its own as far as addressing these issues. Thanks Kent and Rhonda do you want to comment. Yeah, I would. I mean, I'd like to add that. Kristen is right. I mean we're regulated. The farm program comes a representative comes and takes a look at how we care for our animals. Every three years. So NOFA inspects our herd and the standards are really high. Our milk producer stony field, they have really high standards and they're on our farm. I don't know four or five times a year. Not only that we work with our animals seven days a week, and a lot of farmers work with their animals every day and you can't put that much time into a group of animals and really care about them and care about their welfare. It's, you know, economically it's it's to a farmer's advantage to take good care of their cows make sure that they're warm and dry and well fed and watered and they get the proper amount of exercise. I guess I can't honestly think of a farmer that doesn't do all of those things. I mean, and you know we're really connected in the farm industry. We've been going in the same family since 1835. So, you know, we have a long history in this state. I guess that's all I have to add representative partridge. Yes, thanks Rhonda, go ahead Diane. So the program. There are teeth to that program. The agency interacted with the farm that lost their market last year because the animals were too thin. They had an opportunity to remedy that situation multiple times. They didn't remedy the situation and the farmer the dairy farmer lost the market, they had no longer sell milk they're out of the dairy business. Once they were in that situation, the other dairy coops would not take their milk because of the animals were too thin. So it has teeth. It is active in Vermont, and it has consequences, the FARM program in Vermont. Diane, could you say what FARM stands for in this case? Farmers. I'm going to need help Kristen farmers. Assuring farmers assuring responsible management. Thank you. Thank you. Very good. Anything else anyone wants to add on this. Is there is there something any of you would like to say I noticed that we have about just over five maybe six minutes left. And want to know if there's anything. Any other questions from the either committee or if there's anything that anyone here wants to add at this point. Bobby. Yes. I don't know who raised the question about animals being out and going into the woods and possibly losing their current use. I, I can't imagine where that issue came from because, you know, it certainly isn't in the current use law. So I don't know where where that could possibly be coming from but I'm glad you're going to check it out. And, you know, I, I think this has been a good meeting. And I know Diane and, and Kristen, you know, they know that they can contact us anytime but it's, it's very important for any members of the board if they so choose or, or want to come and talk to us about an issue that we could help fix to make their jobs run more smoothly. I think this for sure is really, it should be a real positive step forward. And I know it north we have a, if we have problems that usually was somebody that runs out of feed. We moved here, you know, a few years back and we're going to live off the land. And they've got, you know, a few animals and, and they forget that we have a long winter and they don't have adequate feed for for those animals and they run into trouble. And you know, in, in most of these cases, if we could get to these people, other farmers would I bet pitch in and take some feed there to, to help them get by but they don't, I don't know if they're, if they're embarrassed to call or, or what they think but you know you don't usually hear about these animals tucked in a barn that aren't getting properly fed until somebody you know that goes by or somebody goes in and, and finds them in trouble. That's a good point. And you know, this year is going to be tough for some of us who had decreased hay crops. I was fortunate to, to find some hay to keep going but Bobby we were actually talking a week or two ago about you starting up a hay, a hay convoy with some of your old trucks, just folks are going to need it. I can't remember when this shortage came up down down in the south somewheres and I know we loaded up a couple of trailer truck loads and donated our, you know, our equipment to take that hay down which farmers donated to put in the trucks that had to have been 15 years ago or, or more. Exactly right. I think it was Iowa. I think it was Iowa Bobby. Well, I can't remember other than, you know, it was, it was a good thing to do and a lot of people participated. Yeah, and it was a, it was something that was definitely the Vermont way of helping out fellow farmers. Any final remarks from Diane or Kristen. I see no hands up. I want to, I want to thank you all for joining us today this has been really helpful and I think we might be talking with you again regarding this grazing issue. Bobby, any last words from you. Well, just, you know, many of us never get many thanks for the good work that we do and I'm sure your council is in no different position and just want to thank you very much for all the time and hard work that you put into this and and helping to protect and make our animals healthier and stronger and and and make society understand really the proper way of taking care of the animals. Thanks Bobby and for the now we're going to. Again, thank you all and we're going to go.