 Welcome back. You're still watching The Breakfast on Plus TV. I've got to first major conversation now. The social economic rights accountability project, otherwise known as CERUP, and other education rights groups for that matter, such as the Reform Education, Nigeria and Education Rights Campaign, have knocked the administration of President Muhammad Buhari over the prolonged shutdown of the academic activities of the nation's tertiary institutions. The strike declared by ASU, that's the Academic Staff Union of Nigerian Universities, enters its 141st day today, while the strike declared by the Joint Action Committee of the Senior Staff Association of Nigerian Universities, the non-academic staff of education and other allied institutions, which began on March 25, 2022, also enters the 69th day today. Now while the National Executive Council of the Academic Staff Union of Polytechnics yesterday met in Jigawa State after calling off a two-week warning strike, the Colleges of Education Academic Staff Union just commenced their own two-month strike. Now CERUP had on Sunday noted that the government's failure to meet ASU's demands to implement the agreement it had with the union and satisfactorily resolved the issues of scared poor Nigerian children at home, while the children of the country's politicians attend private schools. I'm glad to see we have joining us now to further discuss this. The Deputy Director at CERUP, Kola Wale Oluwadari. Good morning to you, Oluwadari. Thank you very much for joining us on the breakfast. Having looked at how far this has come, do you feel there should be some shifting of ground by ASU? It will depend on what you consider shifting of ground, looking at the issues that ASU has been fighting for and the response of the federal government to those issues. So one cannot just pick up shifting grounds without looking at the context. And context also includes incidents and historical factors as well. So in that regard, shifting ground will not necessarily have the educational sector. Because if we have government that has no commitment to funding education either at a tertiary level or even at a primary or secondary school, in spite of what the law says, then that shows the wrong priorities that government is placing on issues in Nigeria. So it is not really about us shifting ground as it were. It is about government doing what they should do. Because the law says so. Because it has the right to do and because morally it is the right thing to do. And I am yet to see government come out to say that the reason they cannot see to be seen as a request of ASU is because of lack of funds, which is why Sarah Pattykinian initiated to write to the president. To point out to me, just in cases, the grant of those areas where Nigeria is bleeding funds and those funds can easily recover their goods to fund the education. And this is such an education we are talking about by the way. We are not talking about secondary education, primary education, to address the brain number of other school children. So really, the box stops at the federal commission, particularly the president, to address this once and for all. And these are agreements that have been signed for over years. Why can government agree to it? Why can't government fund the education properly? Particularly when the same government has enough funds to build it, to allocate over 20 million era to build the health center in the state of Zambia and over 2 billion era for travels and refreshments from the president. Really, there is no other way to look at this for lack of commitment and sensitivity on the part of the government. But we are looking at things like, you know, the implementation of the integrated personnel and payroll system, the IPPIS, which as soon as also, you know, not in favor of. We are looking at, you know, 22.1 billion era and allowances that were paid to lecturers and university asking for their money to be paid to them. The crux of this matter is about remuneration for these lecturers. You are looking at the payroll system implemented by the government and looking at the entitlements and the areas government is owing them. Are these the issues that are for them, not for the entire education sector? These ones are not talking about infrastructure, not talking about, you know, building new schools or building new classrooms. How much are you paying us? And how are you paying us? Is this not something that they can say, okay, we're going to step back a bit on? No, really, I don't think so. But following the issues of us, like, and there was before now, it has never been solely about the welfare simplicity of the lecturers. And when I talk about welfare, welfare is not only about their recorders, maybe about their pay and analysis. It also covers a lot of things. For instance, the infrastructure for them to do research. So why would you pay a lecturer when you do not provide infrastructure for him to do his work? And to do his work, he needs to do research and research is what will feed intellectual capacity and he or she is trying to build a lecturer. So it goes beyond pay and allowance. And I think it's really a service for us to live, for anyone to live, ASUS demands as just... But the minister of... It goes beyond that. Yeah, but the minister of labor and employment said 92 billion there has been paid already by the federal government to ASU. I mean, they've been having strikes over the years, right from the time of Lucia Gorbasa and Joe until now. And I mean, I've been covering ASU stories. Most times you... It feels like they are sandwiching or layering their demand for welfare with other demands, you know, like infrastructure and university and all that. But at the heart of what they want is usually their welfare, especially the money that goes to them. Possibly ASU would be in a better position to stick to these issues of welfare. And we're all engineers and we're all concerned about this as well. And so really, I think it really it's too pedestrian to believe that what ASU is fighting for, what that will mean for ASU as basically related to their welfare. No, they are much more bigger issues. And that is why I said we need to look at context. 98 billion error release is more or less for the areas of their pay. There are other issues as well. The government has not addressed. And this is a government that has huge amount of money to spend on other things, which are free policies. We have a statutory transfer of more than 38 billion error to the National Assembly, for instance. So you cannot talk about 98 billion error for areas as satisfied the demands of the strike electorates. And so even if their welfare as it is, their pay and allowances are set today, that is not enough. So we cannot say they are just layering their demand based on their welfare. What about the infrastructure in the schools? And I've just told you that even if the electorates are not available at all, it is also right for them being diligently able to say that it is not enough to pay us. You must give us the means for us to do the work. They are ear-wise. They will be unfair to themselves and those students. And I think they've tried so hard to make that argument as compelling as possible to make it comparison that while on the wall, as we're talking about the welfare of its members by nature, by way of salaries, allowances and the system for which it is being paid. There are also combustion arguments to fund the universities appropriately for them to do their work. If they were selfish, they wouldn't argue for their pay. They would not talk about the welfare necessary in their tools for them to do their work. For instance, look at what COVID-19 did to us in Nigeria along with other nations of the world. We are here to have a functional system that allows us to continue to teach online because the facilities just do not exist. And so it goes beyond welfare and pay. It is for government to put its money where its mouth is, so to speak to ensure that education is funded appropriately. And again, I'm making a case not only for tertiary education but for primary and secondary. Knowing fully where the importance of education to national development and the habitat of the tertiary institutions are supposed to be that intellectual and combative that would bring forward ideas that would make sure that there is a way to grow in the community of nations to advance our social development. But what we see are universities that can really improve new people that can compete lovingly and much more lovingly. And so I really think that these are needs to be stepped up to ensure that government takes action not only to satisfy the demands of us on their welfare pay and even the system they are they are they are they are they are they are they are we can we can we can let's talk about you know recently there was actually that report has been put out where Syrup is asking the president ordering the president and asking that funds should be recovered and we are looking at 105. 7 billion now of public funds from ministry department and agencies system. I mean, it's not today. The strike action didn't really start today. But do you think that this would actually solve the problem of strike year in and year out? It is a good way to start. Of course, it may not necessarily solve all the issues, but it's a good way to start. And you will recall that at the end of all the issues within ASU and government and every other association, for that matter when it comes to welfare, it is always about paying, more or less, more down to pep neary issues, whether it's for the welfare allowances or even the infrastructure for them, even the same thing happens in the health sector. So Serap is pointing out that the news where government can recoup money. And this is not if government can go after a batch of loot, with so much people and recombination of them, why not look inwards to spend the time at waste one and recover the funds and loot it. And so what you may reference to now is what Serap published recently, which is the findings in the auditor general of the federation's report, the 2018 analysis of that report, show that more than 100 billion there is missing, cannot be accounted for by various NBS in Nigeria. I think that should call, that's a concern. That's a call, that's a cost for concern. And that is just a 2018 report. We are not talking about the 2019, 2020 and the 2021 audit report. The 2021 report is not yet out by the way. And so if government can recoup these funds, that's a good way to start because government is always saying, we have enough funds, we don't have money, and we are boring. So the question is where are the funds going? And the auditor general's report is a public document by the way, by a public institution of the federal government that is being paid to do this. And if we ask who got that report, why is the National Assembly not working on it? Why is the President not giving directives to the law enforcement agency, the corruption agency, the ICPC and the EFCC to go after these NBS, recombine those funds, and put it where it should be put. And that is why we recommend that the President can present another application to the National Assembly to make sure that these funds are effectually channeled. And that also includes some of these frivolous systems, which are included in the Presidency and the National Assembly. All right. Even if the 105 billion, the 1.7 billion Naira public funds from ministries, departments and agencies, you are talking about a Serap, two fund ASU is recovered. That may pale into insignificance if we look at what the union is asking for. Now, we have not even talked about the Polytechnic Union. We're not even talking about the non-academic unions. ASU's figure last time I checked was 1.3 trillion Naira and most recently, I think in May, the Under Minister of Labor and Employment, Chris Ingega, had to come out to say that, you know, they cannot meet this demand because the promise was made or the agreement was signed in the era of Dr. Gulok-Geneath and when it was $100 per barrel of oil. Right now, things are not the same like Tupac-Amaru Shakur said. Things would always change. So 105.7 billion Naira will be just about 10% of that 1.3 trillion Naira. They said they paid $92 billion already. So where will the rest come from? The rest is just there. I just mentioned the 2018 Auditor General report. There is the 2015 report, the 2016 report, the 2017 report, the 2019 report and if you take this report, these reports are public documents by the way. They can be downloaded and assessed on the website of the General Reformation. Year in, year out, billions of Naira is reported as missing and stolen. So really, to get these funds all the government needs to do is just to look at the other general's report maybe for 3 or 4 years and this is not enough. You need to understand the context that the Auditor General does not even have the capacity, I mean to audit all the MDAs in Nigeria. In Nigeria, more than 900 MDAs. Annually barely does the Auditor General audit. Not a lot to add for them. And if you audit all, the number, just a small portion, shows how much we are using Annually. So you can imagine the photographic order that we are using, otherwise we will put and spend the money. So the argument is not that we don't have funds. So really, our attitude to spending, cutting costs and requiring this fund, and that's why I made the effort, even to the Abatchan Luda of Mericoba, Seraph has written a freedom of official request to the federal government, to the president, and to the Auditor General of the Federation, asking specific details of how much has Mericoba and how those funds have been spent. We did not get a response and that is why the Mata is still in court. So it is not really about how much has Mericoba and how much has Mericoba and how much has Mericoba and what is the total sum of what you are talking about? You've talked about amount recoverable from ministries, departments and agencies amounted to 105.7 billion, including from the presidency as well. The presidency's budget of 3.6 billion around feeding 134 billion are located to the National Assembly. So we add all of this. That should be about 160 or 70 billion area. How much are we looking at from the Auditor General's report? Because I'm doing the maths over here. The Auditorial Support is over 100 billion for 2018. The one for 2016 is about 120 billion or so. And these are common documents. Every year huge amounts of money that has not been less than 50 billion is reported to have been stolen and visited and you auto-generate. And that is just one aspect of it. All of this will still not amount to that 1 trillionaire or 1.1 trillionaire outstanding from the 1.3 trillionaire. It may not make up half if it does at all. It may make up half of that 1.1 trillionaire. I can assure you there is a lot more. The presidency is for the presidency and the lower budget agencies to debunk all these things. They are in the public domain. Budget. A civil society organization has pointed out in January this year that there are more than 200 complicated items in the budget. Amounting to almost 200 billionaire. So again this is not about lack of information about how money is being stolen or lost. It is the lack of awareness on the part of government to go after these funds to cook them and spend them appropriately. Even the loans that are being spent which is budgetary. They are not being followed up to make sure that they are spent appropriately. So really we should not get bogged down as to where we are going to get the funds. What we should be doing, financial advocacy which is along the lines of this conversation we are having, is to ensure that government does what they should do to spend money's transparency and accountability and judiciously. Really. So if you are saying that we cannot predict that they are almost 2 trillionaire. As we are asking for, it is quite large and there are months that Serapa proposes just a drop in the bucket. What and why would the presidency allocate almost 3 billionaire for travels and really it doesn't stop. So this is the point where I comment because it feels like we are actually struggling. We are really really struggling and trying to it is like a toddler who doesn't know where to move, what to do and then you need some sort of direction and that's why you have the likes of Serap and others. So do we need to be here redirecting the government as where to channel the funds. You've mentioned 3.6 of course which is actually in public demand talking about travels and feeding. You also have 134 billion are located at the National Assembly in the 2022 budget to meet the demand by ASU. Now the question here is do we really need all of these pointers? Do we need to be pointed to where to recover funds if education is the bedrock of the nation? Why is the Nigerian government not paying attention to education? Why is ASU on strike? If you take a visit to the schools across different parts of the Federation, you will find out that the infrastructure is nothing to write them about. You have lecture halls that are very very sad when you look at them. Nothing to write them about cannot be compared to the comforts that those who live in these glass houses enjoy you can't compare all of that. Why do we have to go through all of this? Don't we understand the importance of having a functional system, having the educational system functioning? Do we need all of this? I think we need to dissect that pronoun we. So when you say we, does it include everyone in Nigeria? Or does it include those in government and citizens? Or does it include those very critical, those very small segmented what people call the political class? And that is why we need to respect the various stakeholders in this pronoun we. In this instance what we found and why we are having this kind of conversation at all in first place is because government is insensitive to the plight of Nigerians and there is no political will to enforce the laws. So it is not a lack of laws, it is not a lack of resources, it is a lack of political will to ensure that these funds are spent and to stop corruption. That is why we are having this conversation. But this conversation entirely is not out of place, the kind of work we are doing right now and even government, citizens who live in government accounts. That is the essence of the non-western. There are laws that bind government as duty bearers and there are laws that also create a obligation on citizens that's right to us. So what we are doing is exciting our rights and long with the right to criminal expression to really go into account, not because we think it is right, but because the laws say so, that they will power on more for the people who are the most exercising power fearing our collective interests. So having this kind of conversations or making pointers in government is not necessarily a bad thing. What is negative that we are seeing in Nigeria is the lack of a sensible amount of government. And that is why you see, this starts to strike and all these issues with education at all levels affects the law. And so we have more than 90 billion Nigerians who are the population of 200 million. And it is said in the next 10 years more Nigerians will fall into poverty. So what is government doing? The Nigerians are rich and lots of these schools I can tell you. And so government doesn't just care. So we need to continue to advocate like this to create that much in their particulars to hold government to account. For them to do the writing because the laws say so. And because it's morally right and it's just what they should do. So it's not a place to have this kind of conversations. Alright, you still not told us how much can be mopped up from everything when I do amount to that 1.1 trillion Naira outstanding for ASU. But I mean they are saying they will not back to classroom unless that money is paid as far as they are concerned. It wasn't in the punches in the nation. It was when they finished talking to the government. They have nothing else to say. Government just has to pay them their money. And you say there is nothing else for them to do. They can't even step back. But truly, truly, truly you think government can raise this money from all these things you are mopping up. If yes, how long will it take for government to go after all these stolen money? You've talked about 2018 budget. You've talked about 2016 budget. You've talked about ministry departments and agencies. People who have taken monies or monies that are heating and stashed. How long will it take to recover all of these? And how much will it amount to? Is it not a... I'm tempted to throw the question back at you. If the National Assembly was pointed at 1.1 trillion Naira as well. How long will it take the government to make that money and give it to the National Assembly? That's just about 10% of what they want. That's just one budget line. To one agency of government. So, modify that. I have just told you that Naira has more than 900 MGA's. Ministries, department and agencies. So, here the National Assembly has taken more than 18 billion Naira. I don't think we should be asking how government intends to raise about... Let's quickly look at some of the consensus being raised. I mean, you have, you know, some persons saying that if the federal government, no work, no pay. If the government have not paid for five months. I mean, whatever happens is that if students actually resume, you know, they're going to lose out. They're not going to be part of the five months that it's actually been lost. So, it will start from when the federal government acts. Where does this leave us as a people and as a society? Not forgetting the fact that we constantly chant that, you know, the youths are the future of tomorrow. What kind of future are we leaving? And that is why what has to have done is to pass the pattern of this and this to us. Because these are Nigerian youths, brothers, sisters, cousins. They are part of us. Which is why we now need to ensure that we will accountable to ensure that we continue to month this kind of pressure by this kind of a book, is that government should do the writing. As soon as God is best, He's doing His best, it is for us as stakeholders to ensure that government does what the government should do over what they need to do to ensure that this goes with them. But again, the question has always been about the sensitivity of government to the part of Nigerians, particularly poor Nigerians. And that is why we will get the little reaction from this. We will get Nigerians rise up and mass and continue to month pressure on government to solve these problems. But again, because we live in this country and we understand the context, it's not only just about the education sector, like just talking about school. What about the health sector? You added the news out in a week or two in Nibbano, UCH, has put in public... I doubt that is true. That patients would have to pay to assess healthcare. Doesn't that raise issues? What about insecurity? What about infrastructure? What about power, electricity? So again it is not about the people as it were. It is about the failure of government to do what they should do and lack of commitment on their part. So citizens must in this instance continue to speak up because we are affected and will continue to be affected by this act of government. Or we can call it inaction of government. So you are saying that as we look at the 2022 budget, which is just about 17 trillion era, you are saying that 7.6% of that entire budget, which is what has been asking for 1.3 trillion era, should go to just one group. Not message me. Call out, I did the maths here. 7.6% of 17 trillion era, 7.6405882%. The same government is saying that they do not have these funds to meet the educational sector. Are they spending that money near the sector? I'm not talking about the educational sector. I'm talking about what is going to ask to their pocket. And for the same government has not come out to say that they do not pay themselves, that they do not pay patients so still go. They do not complain that they do not pay satisfaction transfers to national assembly members. They have not said that they do not spend 3 billion to meet the president for a year. The money is not too much. Thank you. It is not when you look at context and relating to other items in the budget. Alright, we have to go. Thank you so much for your time and for the work you do at CERAP. We hope you will be here sometime soon.