 I think we're going to get started. I want to welcome you all here. Does everyone have one of these handouts? All right, you've got that. If you're listening online, this is audio recorded and available online. So these notes will also be available through digital download. So you can have them. And actually, those of you in this class can access them digitally, too, if you would like. Welcome. My name is Sonny Mazar. I'm the director of the Radiant Network. It's been my privilege to be here for the last two and a half years, helping Pastor Lee, Pastor Pastors. And there's something very unique about what God is doing at Radiant and through Radiant. You know, there are local churches. But there are some local churches that are apostolic in nature, which means that they don't just take care of themselves. They export and bless other churches. And so I would like to introduce you to my dear friend, Dr. Frank Harvey. He is a bishop. He oversees churches all over the world. And we're very blessed to have him here. He's been walking with me for, I don't know, a decade or more, more than that, and has blessed my life. And he's a tremendous treasure to have at the conference. And I was given this wonderful opportunity to speak to you about how apostles can strengthen local churches. And I thought it would be next to sin to have Bishop Frank here and not give us some words. So I'm going to be sharing some of our teaching with him. The most important thing for you in this workshop is the very thing that Jesus has to speak to you specifically. So if you get one nugget, I'm happy. And it might be something that we say or something that the Holy Spirit gives you directly. That's great. But we want to teach you. We want to challenge you. We want to equip you. The resources that are in your hands there, we may not go through all of that line by line because of time. What my goal is is to do some teaching. And Frank and I are going to be doing some teaching. But then we want to open it up to Q&A. So everyone be thinking, be in inquisitive mode. And because I know that you're going to have some questions. And the best kind of teaching happens when we start speaking to the very things that you're wondering about, right? So let's begin with a word of prayer. Lord, we want to thank you, Jesus, for being that great teacher, but also being that great apostle and high priest of our faith. And as we're gathered here, we pray that you would teach us and show us just the things that we need to know and grow in and be challenged in. Lord, equip us, send us out, make us stronger because we've been here. And even challenge our paradigms, those things that need to be challenged and spoken to so that we can be all that you've called us to be in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Frank, I would like to just have you introduce yourself a little bit more. I know I spoke some about you, but if you could just speak to who you are then so everyone can know you. I'm Frank Harvey. And my wife and I pioneered a church in Western North Carolina near Asheville 45 years ago. I was a Southern Baptist pastor before that. And my wife, her father was a Southern Baptist minister. Two of my brothers are Baptist preachers, two uncles. I mean, we come from a long pedigree line of Baptists, but been preaching since I was 12 and then began pastoring at age 19. And the Lord baptized me in the Holy Spirit, which greatly complicated my life in a heavenly, glorious way. I wouldn't have it any other way, but I can tell you it sure made me not fit where I was. And so even as a Baptist, I was functioning apostolically as a father. I started at 19 and I was pastoring five preachers and they were all older than I and have never pastored less than that in all the pastoral years. And when I finally ceased pastoring a church, we had between 75 and 80 ministers in the church that we were sending out every weekend somewhere in various ministries. Today, I oversee churches and that means you don't control, but you speak into churches on, I guess, four continents and just have many sons and daughters and love encouraging pastors and churches. Thank you. Who here is 44 years old or close to 44 if you're 45? And you're willing to admit it. I want to give a book away to someone who's 44 or the closest to 44. That's you, then. All right, here, catch. This book is Journey to Authenticity. We wrote this 12 years ago. It's about discovering your identity in Christ through the seasons of life, which, by the way, keep changing. You think you got your identity down because you know you're in Christ, but guess what? You turn the corner and it's different. It changes and how you relate to Christ through the changing seasons changes. And why I'm giving it to someone who's closest to 44 is that statistically the saddest year of your life is 44. Oh, no. That's what happened. I'm here for you, Rick. Next year, I am here for you, statistically, right. And basically, the book unmasks the importance and actually God's hand in what happens to us in midlife called brokenness and surrender and how God is intimately involved in walking us through those graces. So this is a book I want to give you, Pastor Rick, but this is available in the bookstore. How many of you have read this book? It's a great book. All right, good. And so just if you think that that might scratch an itch in your life, they're available, Pastor Rick. All right, and I'm here for you. By the way, that's a great study for him to come and teach. We've had him teach it at our church, and it was powerful. I mean, it blessed the whole church. Let's start talking about Ephesians 4, 11. I hope that your Bible, when you grab it, flops open automatically to Ephesians 4, 11 because you are so familiar with God's blueprint for building corporate maturity. I said corporate maturity. A lot of Christians think about how can I mature. Pastors think about how can my church mature. Apostles think about how can the churches mature that are under my care. Jesus thinks about how can I bring the bride to corporate maturity? Guess what, we're going there, and at the end of the age, it will be shouted the bride has made herself ready. So the Lord Jesus is very concerned, yes, about your micro maturity, but what is truly on his heart is corporate body-wide maturity. And the apostle Paul had a great blueprint for this in Ephesians 4. Starting at verse 11, and you can open your Bible or turn there in your electronic device. So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers to equip his people for works of service so that the body of Christ might be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is Christ. From him the whole body joined and held together by every supporting ligament grows and builds itself up in love as each part does its work. This is a blueprint for corporate maturity. And we could spend a lot of time talking about the various elements of Ephesians 4, 11 through 16. But for our purpose of introduction to the apostolic is a little teaching on the fivefold ministry. How many of you have heard the term fivefold ministry? Some people that I have pastored who have truly annoyed me, I wanted to give them the fivefold ministry. And those pastors in the room said, amen. You know, it's just like fivefold, bam. But the fivefold ministry is a term that defines these five gifts that are people that are given to the body of Christ. Did you see them? Apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher. And each one of these are individuals given by the ascended Christ when he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave these gifts to people. And we specialize in one of the five. That has led to great anemia in the body of Christ. Which one are we most familiar with? Pastor, of course. You know, or maybe teacher. There are some great teachers in the body of Christ. Or perhaps you'll meet an evangelist every once in a while. But what in the world is an apostle? I thought there were 12 and Judas dropped out and then, you know, then they cast lots and Matthias was set in. And of course, Paul came along. But what are apostles today? Did you notice that the Lord has given the gifts of the fivefold ministry to equip the saints for works of ministry? Not to do ministry. You might think, oh, well, I'm one of the fivefold ministry. That's why I do ministry. Your job description is to equip the saints to do ministry. And that leads to corporate maturity. So we know what a pastor is. And let me just make a dogmatic statement right now. Pastor, if you don't have at least one or two apostles in your life, your ministry is suffering. And you are not building according to the New Testament model. I just tip my cards to you. That's exactly where I'm coming from. Why? Because most of the New Testament epistles, of course, are letters written by apostles to local churches or pastors, in the case of the pastoral epistles, Timothy and Titus, to local situations that needed apostolic care and input. Pastors who are here, we strongly recommend that you find an orbit of two or three apostles. And I would even say prophets to speak into your life and to speak into your church, not to take your role as a pastor. You have a very unique role as a pastor. But the fivefold ministry works together. And when I was a young pastor, I had a theology of the fivefold functions from early on in Bible college. And I was raised up with this awareness. And so as a pastor, you know what I would do? I would say, I am tending a pot of stew. I keep the fire warm. I make sure the fire doesn't go out. I stir it, but I can only add potatoes. I have to have apostles and prophets, teachers, evangelists come around me and throw their stuff in the stew that I am stirring. Because a pastor equips like a pastor. An apostle equips like an apostle. They all equip. But each one brings a different flavor to that stew. And the pastor keeps the heat and keeps stirring. And guess what? When you get that environment, you get a wonderful tasting stew. You get corporate maturity. And so this whole idea of the fivefold ministry may be new to you. But there are in scripture, you might say, well, I thought there were only 12 apostles. There were 12 apostles. But do you know that the New Testament lists many more apostles than even the 12? Here's a list very quickly. And this is not in your notes. Mathias, Acts 1, 26. Paul, Acts 14, 1. Titus was an apostle. 2 Corinthians 8, 23. Epaphroditus, Philippians 2, 25. Silas and Timothy 1, 1, and 2, 6. James, the half-brother of Jesus and the leader of the church in Jerusalem. Galatians 1, 19. Barnabas, Acts 14, 14. Epaphroditus, Philippians 2, 25. I think I already mentioned him. The two unnamed apostles in 2 Corinthians 8, 23, and Andronicus and Junia listed in Romans 16, 7 as a brief list. What does that say? There were the unique 12 that were for Jesus' earthly ministry. He commissioned them. But the risen Christ, now the context of Ephesians 4, 11 is when Christ ascended on high at His ascension, not on His earthly ministry. But at His ascension, He wanted to make sure the church was well-equipped and taken care of. What was His strategy? He gave gifts to people to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. And so Bishop, Frank, I would love for you to speak to what is an apostle and what does that look like? And just once you just go off on that for a while and help us out with understanding this. I guess I'll start with an illustration. Some years ago, I was at a conference and this gentleman came up to me as we were finishing up and getting ready to leave. And he said, I'm riding back with you. And he lived about three hours from the conference and an hour and a half from my home. And I said, excuse me. And he said, I already sent my wife home with a luggage. And I said, okay, what's up? And he said, I've been asked to pastor an apostolic church who's been headed by an apostle for 30 years. And I don't have the faintest idea how to be an apostle and I need you to spend this next three hours telling me how to be an apostle. And I said, you don't understand, you can't learn to be an apostle. God calls you that if you ever are. And just because you're going to be the senior minister at an apostolic church, doesn't make you an apostle any more than walking in your garage makes you a car. That church is an apostolic church because an apostle has been the head of it for 30 years. It reflects his calling, his giftings, his strengths, his values. And if you go there and you pastor there, become the senior minister, that church will begin to reflect you and you're not an apostle. I know you and you're a teacher. You're a gift teacher, a great teacher. But I said, it will begin to reflect it. And that's not bad, but you just need to understand just because you're going to pastor an apostolic church doesn't make you an apostle. And you don't grow into becoming an apostle. It's not a metamorphosis. Let me go back if I can a little bit and say, I believe apostles and prophets together. He said, the church is built on the foundation of apostles and prophets. And the reason I believe that the church for 15, 1600 years disregarded and wrote out of the scriptures apostles and prophets is because those are the seers of the church. Those are the ones who envision beyond where we are. And after Constantine codified the church and made it acceptable and governmental as well as spiritual and they organized and structured things, visionaries were a threat to the status quo. And so the last thing we wanted was somebody thinking beyond where we are and beyond what we're doing. And so the job became maintaining, filling a position and became career oriented rather than visionary and catalytic. And I wanna say to you, the apostles and prophets act as catalysts toward each other. They stir, they provoke one another to think beyond and believe beyond and see beyond. That's why I believe we need apostles and prophets today, probably more in my opinion, more than we have ever needed them from the time of the first century church. When you take apostles and prophets out of the book of acts, nothing makes sense. Those were the generals, the tacticians, the strategists. These were the one who said, we're planning to go into Galatia for the churches. And the Holy Spirit said, you need to see a vision of a man in Macedonia. Take the gospel to Europe. That was an apostle and a prophet, a team and they did. And we, most of all of us in this room are the product of that decision. The gospel came to Europe and most of us, not all of us, but most of us descended from European Christians down through the ages. And I wanna say to you that today, we desperately need people who see beyond where we are, who don't just try to think, how do we fix the status quo? But who say, well, what if we try, what if we did this? And I'm gonna say one more thing and then I'll let you have it back. But the issue is Jesus, when he was speaking to his disciples, he said, listen, the works that I do shall you do also. And greater works than I do shall you do. My question is, did they? Yes, they did. I don't ever read, of course, we don't know everything Jesus said and did. John said if it was all written, the world wouldn't contain it all. But we read no account of Jesus walking through the street and his shadow touching someone and healing them. But Peter did that. We have no account that Jesus sent articles of clothing or pieces of cloth to someone and they were healed or delivered. But Paul did that. Do you believe that? I do, it's in the word. What I wanna suggest to you is, I don't think the storehouse in heaven has even begun to be tapped on innovative creative extended ideas of how to implement the ministry of Jesus Christ today. Greater works. I believe the storehouse in heaven is full of creative ideas and God is just looking for somebody who's willing to step beyond what is written, not outside the parameters of the word but in extension of the principles laid down. I believe that it's gonna take some of us in this room being willing to do something that nobody else has done. Not out of line with the scriptures, not violating the principles he's laid down but extending them out to our day and our generation. That's, those are the people that they're enemies. This wasn't the PR department of the church. This was their enemies. They said, these people have turned the world upside down and my God, they've come to our town. These were people who weren't playing it safe. I mean, they did ministry in a way that nobody had ever seen before. And my prayer is God may their tribe increase. There's an illustration, maybe you've heard of it, to help understand how the five-fold ministry works together and it's the hand. The apostle is the opposable thumb. If you didn't have an opposable thumb, your hand would be greatly weakened because there's tremendous power. When I help Becky carry in groceries, I can grab a lot of weight with just this or this, okay? So the opposable thumb is like the apostle in this illustration, interacting with all the other five-fold ministry gifts effectively to what strengthen them. The prophet, the pointer finger. The prophet often sees things, speaks to things, and identifies things and is not afraid to get very specific about what he or she sees. Apostle, prophet evangelist is the longest finger. Oftentimes the evangelist goes out front beyond before the others, breaking ground for the others, preaching the gospel so that those converse can be equipped by the other five-fold ministry, the longest finger if your anatomy is proper. Okay, it's your longest finger. The ring finger is the pastor, and that ring finger is significant because a pastor is normally, usually married to a local church. And when I say married to a local church, he or she finds their equipping ministry in being a shepherd. So the Greek word poiment is translated shepherd and pastor. So you see a great strength coming from a shepherd pastor in the midst of a local church. Let me just say, while we're talking about pastors because we're most familiar with pastors, we call people pastor regardless of whatever five-fold ministry office they're walking in, but pastors are to be honored within their local church among the elders as distinct. Now, we last year talked about the role of elders in the local church. Very important to have a collegiality of elders in the local church, and some of you who are here are elders. And so thank you for being pillars and carrying government in your church. But among you, there is a five-fold ministry gift that is not you. It is not an elder, but it's actually a pastor. Now, a pastor should be governmental in the midst of the elders, but a pastor is unique among the governing elders of the body because that person is part of the headship ascension gifts that God has given to you, married ring finger. And then the teacher, of course, is your little finger because the little finger is often minimized in its importance, but the role of teaching is very important. And if you've ever heard a teacher, a teacher can get into places that the others can't. It can dig into your ear more effectively and be more effective in placing the word of God into you. So a simple illustration of the five-fold ministry. Yes, sir. A couple of things with that. And this is the ministry, the hand ministry. It's the hand of God for his church to bring him to maturity and strength. But when it comes to warfare, when the church needs help and needs defended, you don't fight like this or like that. You bring them together under the covering of that thumb and it becomes an offensive weapon, not only defensive, but offensive. Can we have a volunteer? Can we have a volunteer come up? I need a volunteer. And I think it's so important. The other thing is, it has been my observation over decades in ministry that generally we replicate what and who we are. Prophets generally produce profits. They, profits are drawn to them and they, in their ministry, produces profits. Evangelists are gravitated to by other people with an evangelistic calling, et cetera, et cetera. But the thing that's distinctive about the apostle is in the initial time in the church, it only had 12 apostles. And the whole church, these 3,000 new believers continued steadfastly daily in the apostle's doctrine and under the ministry and the nutrient of the apostolic gift, it wasn't long until an evangelist emerged. It wasn't long until a company of prophets came forth. There's something about the apostolic gift that can function in these others, as them, but it also brings nutrients that are necessary for these to flourish. And that's one of the reasons it's so vital to have, as he said, an apostolic circle of people that you can draw from because as they come into your church, they will stir people's giftings that you can't stir. If you're not an apostle, if you're a prophetic man and you can be a senior minister and be a prophet, but you'll generally just excite other prophets, evangelists don't get too excited under your ministry. But there's something, and it's not because they're smarter or better, it's just God has equipped that apostolic gift in a way that nurtures, calls forth and enables all the others. And when we're talking about the headship of Jesus Christ in scripture, Jesus is described as an apostle, a prophet, an evangelist, pastor, and teacher in other places in the Bible. So when he ascends on high, he doesn't leave us without his expression. He says, I want to be expressed through a variety of uniquely gifted people that are gonna display my heart. Pastor, if you're doing it alone, you're not doing it according to the New Testament pattern. So when I talk about every local church should have an orbit of apostles. What, just to draw a picture of your local church. Yes, you're here pastor, you're feeding, you're leading, you're keeping the fire warm, you're challenging, you're equipping the way a pastor should. But I believe that every church should have, here's one apostle and then here's another apostle in relationship with you and hopefully with one another. And this is why. There are different kinds of apostles and there's different gift sets that each apostle will bring to their ministry just like every pastor is different. I was a youth pastor in a church that went through a terrible crisis and they believed in the five-fold ministry, but guess what? They had one singular apostle over the church who was great at teaching but could not administrate his way out of a wet paper bag. And when the chips were down, guess what? He came in and wanted to bring a teaching to solve our problem. Well, when all you've got is a hammer in your toolbox, everything, every problem looks like a nail, right? And so he could not help us. If we had an orbit, if we had an orbit of apostolic voices and Frank and I have had the privilege of serving in this capacity, the only thing better than having an apostle in your church and giving you help and oversight is having a collegiality of apostles, speaking into your life, having an orbit of gifted apostles who love you, are committed to you, you trust, you know, are in relationship with you because guess what? Pastors need care. The local church is Jesus' idea. Jesus said, I will build my church. And when the apostles went out, guess what? They planted churches. They preached to the gospel. They planted churches. It is the strategy of the Lord to have local churches planted governed by a collegiality of local church elders with a pastoral care person in the mix who are also exposed to the other five-fold ministry gifts. And so when we talk about apostolic orbit, it looks like this. You received a handout about how apostles can strengthen local churches. And so I'd like to talk through that for a bit. Here's a copy for you. There's more here than we're gonna take time to fully unpack. So I'll just hit the few that spend time with the few that I think are most important. Number one, a true apostle will reflect the heart of the first apostle, Jesus Christ, and their fatherly love, concern, and intercession for the church. And you see the scriptures there where Jesus is in Hebrews 3.1, you know, he is the apostle. Fix your thoughts on Jesus who we acknowledge as our apostle. And so the heart of an apostle toward you is not to dominate you. Most times when there are pastors who consider trans-local covering, they're afraid of one thing, control. We don't wanna be part of some denomination. We don't want someone coming in here and telling us how to do that. But you know what? An apostle will relate to you in love to strengthen you for your best, for your encouragement, for your edification. That apostle carries things that you need. Number two, apostles are among the equipping gifts to the body of Christ. They bring foundational ministry, established church government and help identify callings in other people. I wanna highlight established church government. You know, as the director of Radiant Network, one of the most common things I do is encourage pastors to raise up healthy eldership teams. How do you define an elder? How do you find an elder? Making sure elder teams are functioning properly. Local church government is a big deal. And when the apostles in the early church planted these churches, one of the major things that the apostle Paul did is let's make sure that elders and proper church government is established in your church. We a lot of times don't think much about church government until we desperately need it. And thank God when it's there and in place and well-defined when the chips are down, you truly need your government to be healthy. Well, apostles help and look at what the apostle did. Paul did. He wrote the pastoral epistles. Timothy and Titus have something in common. Titus 1, 1 Timothy 3, give requisites for elders. What was Paul doing? He says, make sure you get some proper government in your churches. This is important stuff. Number three, an apostle will often bring broader kingdom perspective to a local church, thus infusing life, vision and hope. You know what happens? Pastors, we get ourselves in trouble in our own little myopic world because the church is, you carry a burden for your church. And when things are not going well in your church, it seems like the world is collapsing. That's the way it feels. I've got a couple of t-shirts in my closet that says that. It's just the way it was when I was a pastor. But when you can pull in outside voices and outside help, they truly will help you regain perspective and hope and to pony up where you need to and to release what you need to release. And so those are all good things. Frank, did you have anything? Yes, I do with that. I think that it's so important for every local church to have a kingdom vision, not just our stuff and our little pee patch. But, and that's why it's so helpful. I just returned a month ago from Europe ministering there. And so that for me, when I go into a church, I say, yeah, I just returned from Germany and this. And let me tell you what God's doing there. People look around and say, wow, that's amazing. It's the same thing he's doing here. And it, but it lifts our vision from our immediate issues. And we realize that we are part of something bigger and broader than that. It's like when a missionary comes to your church and you suddenly, but generally missionaries are focused on a place, a country, a people group. Apostles many times, you know, they see a much broader picture and they bring that perspective to the local house. That's important. It was interesting. We're in the process right now of planting a new church. The church my wife and I established 45 years ago. We pastored it for 26 years and then we handed it off to a spiritual son. And now he's gone after almost 20 years and we have a new pastor who's here at this conference and with some of his leaders. But the interesting thing to me with all of that is this. I'm part of the oversight as Sonny is of that church. And there's another man who also, and this is our apostolic oversight team. But we bring a perspective to the local house that they need, it broadens them. And it lifts their vision to see beyond their own borders. And I think it's so important. So I was sharing in Germany, you know, we were in the process of planting a new church and they got excited about what was happening in America. So they took up an offering and sent back with me 2,500 euro to plant in the new church. Again, they're not just looking at their city, their country, even their continent, but looking beyond that to become connected as part of the kingdom of God. And I think that that's part of what the apostolic perspective in your house can do. It lifts your vision and causes you to see further. Yes, so good. Number four, rather than lording it over churches, apostles embody true servant leadership. Scripture is given there. Number five, apostles bring discipline in order to local churches, doctrinal, directional, relational, spiritual. You know, the first line of defense is obviously your eldership team. But there are times when elders need outside perspective and they can call on an apostolic voice to help come alongside of them and bring that kind of clarity. Number six, different seasons of the local church require different expressions of apostolic input. The rule of thumb is high crisis, high authority. Low crisis, low authority. And you see this in parenting. When your child is about to run out in the street in front of a car, you will get very animated and very loud and have high authority because there's high level of crisis about to happen. But generally speaking, the principle is low crisis, low authority. The apostle Paul knew that and the scriptures are given there. Number seven, on the other side. Can I get in there for just a second? Absolutely. One of the things, and this may sound a little bit off track, but it's not. He was talking here, Paul said, you know, we were gentle among you, we were not a burden to you. And I just wanna talk, if we really truly believe that God has been and is restoring apostles and prophets to the church, then I think we need to stop shoehorning them into becoming pastors or missionaries. We need to allow them to be what God called them to be. Well, the correlation with that is this. If we want apostles available to speak in our churches and prophets available to us, then we're gonna have to find some way of providing for them financially and materially. And that we don't have to, again, either put them under the tyranny of being a traveling minister and they've got to find somewhere to go preach because they need a love offering to pay their mortgage or put food on their table for their kids. So how do we practically do this? I have some thoughts and suggestions with that. If we truly value these gifts and we think they're valuable and we want them, my suggestion has been for decades, and thank God that now, I mean, we reap the harvest of that, that your missionaries are not in your church every month and yet you pay them monthly or weekly or whatever regularly. Why? Because you believe in what they're doing. You believe in their call. You believe in them as men and women of integrity. Well, my suggestion is we need to do the same thing with apostles and prophets who speak into our lives and in the life of our church. They need to be part of your budget that we support regularly. That doesn't provide all their support, but it provides a foundational level that they don't have to be under the tyranny. They have to get out and hustle some place to preach because they need an offering. See law. Yes. But if we will do this, then when they do come administering your church, we do receive an offering to bless them, but that's on top. The joy for me is because for years, and we've planted churches and sent out ministers. And so they give back, none of them exorbitantly, but on a consistent basis as they can. They said, well, how much? I don't know, ask God, whatever he tells you, it's enough. And some $50 a month, some a hundred, some 200, some give a percentage of un-designated receipts. And they give that so that when somebody says to me, I want you to come preach for me, brother, we need you. How much is it gonna cost me? I said, well, it doesn't cost you anything. I believe the principle is if I sow to you spiritual things, you should give something, but you just ask God what he would have you give, and it's enough. You know why I can say that? Because there are other pastors and other churches and ministries who sow into me monthly. And I don't have to ever ask, I can go if they never pay me a penny. And so to me, the finances are not an issue because of people who help underwrite our ministry and love us, and none of it has ever been demanded or even asked. But because we taught for decades before I needed it, then when I moved into full-time apostolic ministry, you know, decades ago, there was more than adequate provision, and we're blessed. And it's wonderful to be able to go and just not have to worry about it because others have provided for us to go and do that. And it was the Apostle Paul who, when he was boasting about how he brought ministry to the church at Corinth, which he planted, he said, I robbed other churches to bring the gospel to you free of charge. In other words, other churches were supplying, plus I was a tent maker, literally, had a full-time job to earn income for myself to plant the church there in Corinth. Amazing. So number seven is very key for what I would like to deposit here. The level of apostolic release in a local church hinges on the level of apostolic revelation embodied in its senior leaders. There are places that we go that might see us as a good preacher, and we can preach fairly well. There are other places we go where we're buddies. There are other places we go that understand that we have an opportunity for an apostle to sow into our lives and our church. What's the difference? Revelation, understanding of the gift that is accessible to you. I can be your buddy, and I can relate to you as your friend. But if you make a draw on what Jesus has put in my life, the head of the church will be released in some way. And so I would encourage you as pastors and elders in a local church setting to when someone is an ascension gift, apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher, it does not matter, identify them and honor them for who they are, and by faith make a draw on the gift that the head of the church has placed in them. Okay, and that has a lot to do with how close the apostolic orbit is to you. You know, there are some pastors who hold me and us. I mean, there's some that's like, yeah, whatever, arms length, but there are some who are like, no, I see what you have and I want to draw from that. And that's fine. It's kind of like relating to your adult children. Anyone here have adult children? I have four adult children. And I don't go into their house and rearrange their furniture. Or say, I don't like that purple wall. I think it should be white. I have no right to do that. But if they ask me, I've owned homes for decades. I know stuff about home ownership. But if they ask me, I will give it. So I like what John Bavir says. John Bavir's experience is when he goes to a place that understands honor, there's high anointing when there's low honor, there's low anointing that comes out of his ministry. It's just a reality. And pastors, you see it too. There are some people that draw God's grace out of you and others you have to hit them in the mouth to get their attention. Number eight, apostles work best in teams when equipping and addressing major church issues. You see this certainly in Acts 15. You see this in Mark 6, Luke 10, when Jesus sent them out two by two. And so working in teams, we've already talked about that. Number nine, wise apostolic leaders can distinguish between preference and principle when giving direction. Scripture examples are given there. You know, we get in church fights because we make our preference a principle and we try to impose it upon all people. And apostles can be wise in discerning those things. Number 10, and then we're gonna open it up for questions. The influence of an apostle is commensurate with his relationship with that church. So the apostle Paul said something amazing there. Scripture given, 1 Corinthians 9-2. The great apostle Paul said, I may not be an apostle to others, but I know I am to you Corinthian church. He was like, yeah, there are other churches that don't see me as an apostle. He didn't impose that on them. Why? Because it was a relational connection. He says, I'm putting the hammer down here because I planted you. You know, you're one of my most problematic churches, Corinth, but I planted you. And I know I'm not to those, I know I am to you. I am a father to you. And so I call it the open heart principle when the apostle Paul there in 2 Corinthians 6. Really, 2 Corinthians is amazing in how the apostle Paul had to defend his apostolic ministry in order to speak into that church. It's really a study unto itself, but he says, we have spoken freely to you, Corinthians, and opened wide our hearts to you. We are not withholding our affection from you, but you are withholding yours from us as a fair exchange. I speak as to my children, open wide your heart also. Do you see the pleading of the apostle Paul to have that kind of ground, to have that kind of interaction with them? Okay, there's so much more we can say, but I wanna scratch where the itch is. So if you have a question, I'm gonna repeat it after you speak it because this is being recorded, yes sir? Yes. Wonderful question. Simply put, in the radiant world, we would say local churches are senior pastor led, eldership governed, staff facilitated, and congregation equipped. So how does all that work when you've got an ascension gift pastor interfacing with elders? Elders carry government. The pastor is a lead elder among them who submits his vision and his agenda to that eldership so that there can be wisdom in a multitude of council. And elders come alongside that pastor, protect the pastor, and give input and help carry out that agenda. I don't believe it's healthy for elders in a local church to oversee staff. I think that should be the role of the senior pastor to oversee the staff of the church on a day-to-day basis who are running the general ministry of the church. But they should carry what I call the five Ds of being an elder which are very focused. Ministry for all, government for a few. And being an elder in a local church is a governing role that is not given to everyone. It's a unique role. And so when you, are you a pastor? When you as a pastor are relating to an apostle, you should have a free, you should have a red phone. And you can pick up the red phone anytime. You should have your apostolic people on speed dial. And contact them whenever, even if there's not a crisis, whatever. But I would say, and this is my experience too. I've been on both sides of this situation where an elder wanted to contact our apostolic authority. There is a unique role that a senior pastor has in the context of leading that church that should not be violated by apostolic authority talking to elders about the business of the church. It violates divine order in my view. And I have been that young pastor who has experienced apostolic leaders talking to elders interference and interloping. And if it's all clean and all good, there's no problem. But if it gets sideways, like if I hadn't, and I did, I had a staff person who was disgruntled with the way I was leading didn't agree with whatever, something I was doing. And guess what? They contacted the apostolic leaders, foul. No, we work it out. And guess what? I hired you, Mr. Staff person. And if we need to work the steps of Matthew 18, right? Matthew 18, if there's a crisis, you work it out one on one to take it before the church. That might be a level of, okay, let's get our apostolic voices in here. We can't work this out in the first two steps. Let's bring that in, maybe then. So I think, I hope I'm speaking to some of what you're asking, but that's kind of practically the way I would see that unfold. If I could weigh in on that, I do see an exception or two to that. And that is, if you're not being adequately compensated or they're not respecting or honoring you, there are times that I have contacted local elders and say, listen, you need to be doing more for your pastor. And I don't want them to have to feel like you put me up to that. If I have observed that they're not providing for you adequately or what they should be, then I have no compunction at all about talking to your elders and saying, listen, guys, you need to be doing a better job with this. Because the way you honor him is the way God's gonna honor you. And so there are times that I do that, but it's never to receive, if somebody comes to me from an eldership saying, I've got something, I don't like it, and I don't believe the way the pastor's handle this is right, have you talked to him? Right. If you haven't, then this conversation isn't an end. You talk to him, pray with him, try to bring resolution, and then you talk with him and the elders, but that's not something I'm willing to even listen to. Yes. So pastors, I hope you're smart. If you need a raise, find an apostle. Because that's one of the favorite questions. Are you being paid enough? Most pastors are like, you know, the old saying, the church boss has said, Lord, you keep them humble, we'll keep them poor. I don't think that's biblical. And I think pastors, obviously, I was pastor of a church that couldn't afford at the time because of a small church to pay me a full-time livable wage, and I worked in a factory. I know what it's like to be bivocational, but guess what? The elders of the church always wanted to pay me a livable wage, and that was in their heart until they could. So just to your point on that, that's a side item, but very important. I wanna open the floor for other questions that you might have. Yes, sir? Right. For us, we came out of a system which was kind of the old charismatic way of like pastor's leader, pastor, like our board has no voice even, really. Yeah, there's a joke that I'm emperor. Yeah. And for me, I actually, I see it as an unhealthy thing that if we had a pastor that was a time rent, it would go very, very poorly. Yes. But in with that, not only do I wanna see our board have a healthy structure of authority where they are governing, but also we're having trouble with them also taking responsibility. It kind of more falls on, well, pastor Rick does that. Yeah. Pastor Rick does that, you know, like it's, I guess. Well, we're all the church, not just, you know, this poor person. How do, could apostolic leadership help to show that healthy governance could take holes? That's one of the things we commonly do is train eldership teams, help pastors learn how to identify elders in their mix. What is a role description for an elder? Pastors, I hope you've thought really hard about that because if you're praying about it and you haven't at least put pen to paper or come talk to me and I'll give you my work, then the Lord can start answering your prayers about, okay, this is what scripture says, this is how we identify elders. Here's a role description of elders and I'll tell you the five D's of what elders should be doing and all of that, but that comes from apostolic voices and the radiant network is one network that believes that we're called to help pastors do ministry effectively without losing their own soul in the process. And we help you with tools, resources, we answer questions like that. Guess what, we'll fly to your church and meet with your elders and do some training. We'll provide resources for you. This is the kind of stuff we do because we believe it's new testament form of government and that's the bottom line. How can apostles strengthen your local church, recognize the five fold ministry functions, release them, invite them into your life? Pastor Frank, we've only got a couple minutes. How do these good people find apostolic voices? You need to find your tribe. If you believe in apostles and prophets then you need to be a part of a group of people who believe that and where those people are welcome and they are recognized and received so that you have access to them. My relationship with the radiant network is fairly recent. Our church has been involved with radiant and then I have become involved, I've known Sonny for many years and so when he made this transition and the more I have got to know Brother Lee and the rest of the other guys who were connected here I really resonate with the connection between the power of praise and worship and prayer and also the ministry of the word and a recognition and reception of the five fold ministry. I, as he said, we serve as part of the apostolic oversight though we've been part of two different organizations but it is not an impediment. I mean, we both understand where we function and we both have been a blessing to many churches in different states and he operates as I do in several other countries in apostolic ministry. So I would say to you, keep your ears open, keep your heart open to look and listen. My suggestion is if you believe in the five fold ministry then I wouldn't go looking for an apostle in an organization that denies they even exist. I mean, you're looking for eggs in the cow barn and you're probably not gonna find many eggs there. You go to the hen house and so I would just say that and again, it's who you resonate with. Every apostle doesn't connect with you or you with him or her and that opens a whole new question but we'll leave that. I would love to talk with you and if I could speak for you Frank that if you have questions, obviously we don't have time to field them right now but if you wanna connect with us in the hallway we're gonna make ourselves available to talk with you help you in any way that we can. You are a unique group of people because you came to a workshop like this for crying out loud and so I commend you for trying to build wisely. Paul said I was among you building like a wise master builder. Don't just grab stuff and start nailing stuff together. Build like a wise master builder. The apostolic role is going to help you to do just that. Father, thank you for each of these people with just really scratching the surface of this wonderful topic. Apostle Christ Jesus behead of the church and delegate those gifts to the body of Christ. Apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher so that the body of Christ in fact would be mature and would be equipped and we look forward to that wonderful day when the bride will have made herself ready and we wedded to the very Son of God as the bride of Christ and we look forward to that and we work toward that day. Bless each church that's represented here and the eldership team and the staff and all the dynamics that are working may we reflect your headship in a beautiful way in your holy name, amen. God bless you.