 Good morning, Doug Hi, John. How are you? I'm pretty good Good. Oh, let's see. Am I open yet? There I am. Yeah so The journey continues Indeed Yeah Harder to describe each day, I think. Yes. Yes What seemed like the summit of complexity keeps going up right although you know and if Often complex systems are not seen for what they are so they could actually be getting simpler But they look more complicated Right, right More smoke, but maybe less fire. I don't know Or different kinds of fire at the same time mm-hmm Yeah We could keep milking these metaphors and have a good time Are you on the list for a jack's Speculations about Quests and games No, I don't think so Jack which one Jack Park Oh I'm not okay I just got one Jack, but I have trouble with his point of view Yeah, there are elements of Truth that remain constant even if constant situations change. Oh But he's his point of view is the truth that's interesting that the truth I hadn't framed it that way that the truth remains constant, but the situation change Well, the atoms of truth are definable and then they could be reassembled, but they don't change their own qualities And so it's a you know, it's building up a knowledge garden One plant at a time and those plants maintain their Integrity if you rearrange them, then I just don't believe that's the way it works I believe that larger layers of meaning affect everything underneath them So if you change the general point of view all the particular facts change their quality and tone Yeah, at a minimum their their tone and emphasis, but also perhaps something more fundamental Yeah, right. They're very significant. Yeah. Yeah, I mean we're all we're all trapped by our experience I try to think about How we did this kind of layered scenario planning where we started with events and Then had selection from events But then of course of course that what that what a team did was change the meaning of the events That was what that was their task was to thread the events with a narrative that changed their implications and emphasize some things and de emphasize other things and then that was the thing they presented as As a hypothesis that that particular way of looking at the emphasis made more sense than another way In almost everybody looks for some foundation Yeah, the build their point of view, but there is no Yeah, there's nothing that you can put a stake in unless unless you're gonna get conventionally religious or something Morning morning Stacy Hi Stace. Hello. This is my favorite topic keep going. I'm listening How would you name your favorite topic? I don't think I could name my favorite topic. What I could say is that I Look for the little shifts that could be made in everything and I Just want to throw that little sparkle point in because I think it's all there. Just needs genius little tweak Jerry what we're talking about is the problem most people look for a foundation for their point of view and there is none There's only the points of view. I don't know about that So so in my brain I have a thought called people are born good and it is opposite people are born bad or evil or somehow one down like original sin and I have made a Personal decision that people are born good and then shit happens and that is a foundational belief for me a top Which I can then say hey, that's why we should trust first and that's why Assume good intent and that's why a whole bunch of other stuff. So how was that not a counter example? Well, they cut the question is whether it's true or not. Oh, I don't care. That's a foundational belief for me Okay, so I do care because I can construct and I can start construct a reasonable edifice for behaving differently If you start with that assumption I totally agree One can believe in something that's not True and act on it and it'll everything goes well It's a it's actually a self-fulfilling prophecy and when you treat people with suspicion That's a self-fulfilling prophecy as well Usually and when you infantilize people and treat them as if they're not very smart They will often behave in really stupid ways. So it's like how you enter a conversation really matters And that seems foundational to me Gilden Stacy. Sorry, just I saw people Sorry It's hard to not just jump in. I know isn't it? It's fun my hand and stuff like that I got problem with what both of you are saying Doug. I don't know why you're talking about truth Because we're in a realm. We're not in a realm of truth here number one Jerry You say people are born good and then shit happens But you act with people as though you're encountering them before all that shit happened Not really. I don't know what you mean. No, I'm acting. I'm acting with people as if they've as if we've all been through shit And I don't know your shit Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not assuming that you're good and innocent and everything's like groovy I'm I'm also assuming that if you were to insult me or something like that I should absorb it and go there's probably a reason for that and I can inquire within And that's really different from taking offense and sending like putting out a hit on you Mm-hmm, which is less friendly a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, but does that make sense? Oh, yeah I'm Stacy Right. So for me what you and Doug said actually matches because if you're assuming that everybody is good Then you also have to recognize that whatever opinion they have come to was formed By the way they connected the dots, right? So you're both right And it has to go together instead of separating it's not Yeah, and my and my assume good intent statements Are not meant to be a blanket. Everybody's good things are groovy. We should just sort of innocently, you know be naive I mean There's a couple bad actors out there, but we we misinterpret them We mishandle them and we design all of our systems to prevent them from acting bad and that that Sorry, and that has actually screwed up our world a lot. Go ahead, Stacy Do most people believe here that Somebody doing something That we might think is evil Do you think that most people if they don't have some sort of pathology believe that what they're doing is for good? Very often Very often very often things that we think are evil people are doing for a reason that they consider to be good Yes, I totally agree with that They have reasoning and the reasoning might only be that everybody around me is doing the same thing and that's That's really powerful when everybody who lives near you is doing precisely the same thing. You can't imagine taking the other point of view It's because nobody nobody in the world seems to hold that point of view Right for example just as a little example Sorry, we jumped right in I I fell into a conversation and then we like took off from there and this is cool And we're having a really nice frothy conversation on the on the google group as well, which I really like What's interesting is how far this conversation has migrated from where john kelly and I started Which was talking about toffee We were talking about the fact that most people in life Want to find a foundation outside of their thinking To ground their thinking and there is no such foundation Well, there are many that poses such like religions Of course Yeah, but but you're saying there is no truth. I don't know that you're saying there is no truth But you're saying there is no solid foundation like that There's no solid foundation that remains constant across all your thinking You mean that you mean that will consistently support all your thinking. How do you mean that? No, it's just that that people want atoms of truth out of which to build structures Some people want to start it with jack park Who believes that? Out of which you can assemble reasoning. I mean there's a bunch of people who've devoted a whole lot of time to logic and and disciplines built on logic like mathematics and and astronomy and whatnot Or other sciences and they're trying to put together an edifice of pieces that fit together on top of foundational pieces, right? And and and then every now and then they show up and they're like well damn There's like we don't we have not 90 of the matter in the universe appears to be dark matter We have no good clue what that is Gosh, we need a better we need a better foundational theory But science is kind of the act of replacing your foundations as you move forward in a way It's heavily contested People like to hang on to their foundation, right? I mean this is this is Uh, I mean an overriding overarching phenomenon people are tribal and and and want to stay within Their tribal context. So you have religions competing For truth when none of them make any sense in regard to scientific truth Um, absolutely. Um, in fact, I'll add I'll add a tiny cynical note And then I'll sort of take us back to starting the call kind of more toward intro Oh, shoot. What was I about to say? Science progresses one funeral at a time. That's that's entirely too true Oh, um, so for me and this is only my perspective acts of faith Like believing in a virgin birth and the whole catechism of the catholic church, for example are Very explicitly attempts to have you agree to things that are counterfactual that are counter logical that are counter scientific And in so doing you achieve membership in the group in the tribe and so and so the cost of membership in the tribe is renunciation of The dominance of other sorts of logical systems in some sense Um, and that's really powerful like it's incredibly powerful. Yeah So and we're trying to have our chat on the matter most chat, but not everybody is on the matter most chat. Uh, I just um Oh, shoot. There we go. Um, I just uh, I just want to recognize that paul profell is with us and i'm thrilled about that um so Back 100 years ago Arthur Brock sent me this grainy vhs quality video Of a fellow who was walking around the the hillsides of northern california with a hand travel Fixing the hillsides by paying attention to the action of water on the hillsides um, that was paul And paul is a teacher and has done a whole bunch of really cool stuff a hero of mine And his idea of upward spiral has infected my brain Uh, and sort of really influenced a lot of the things that I think about over time So I just want to say thank you for for joining the calls. It's really a pleasure to be here Um, I got I got an email from paul recently that said I googled my own name because I want to get out Sort of in the world a little bit. I googled my own name and yours yours is the first one that showed up So he sent me a cold email and said hi I'm the upward spiral guy and I was like, holy god, this is like leonel messy calling you out to kick around the ball Sorry paul, you're muted locally. I think Or are you saying anything? Um, can you hear me? You're fine. I we hear you just fine Yeah, I just uh Good morning, and I'm having my bowl of cereal and uh It's a beautiful day in northern california love that so and So thank you for being here. I will I will go around the room You'll see I'll go around the room and just ask people to check in on what things they're doing that are kind of ogm Like ogm. I mean, we call it. Uh, we are way over represented on men here and white men, which is not good We're trying to shift our our group. I just want to point that out with alarm Um, even though I love all of you, uh, because I think these conversations are important Then I would love to address that during our call as well Um Pardon I cannot help you on that. Exactly. Exactly. Uh, and if we all showed up next week cross dressing, I'm not sure that would help either Um, although it would be really really amusing But if we all if we all showed up with one guest who is not like us that would be interesting too That's correct. And that's a really nice mechanism for for for getting there And uh in the matter most chat bent me made a really really lovely suggestion that I would love to pick up on as well Uh for how to do that Uh, and so I think we can direct our attentions that away um, and so, uh, our normal rhythm on thursday's this this is not meant to be a Uh, a call with an aim toward deliverables and work product and end goals This is just a community check-in call where you figure out what we care about what we're working on It has to do with open global mind or whatever that means And I walk through my grid kind of letting people Take us wherever they want to take us and then occasionally they they'll put something in the room that that like is is hot or is interesting or Is particularly connective and we will dive into that and sort of try to unpack it and help one another Sort through these things So in that spirit, uh, let me um, let me actually say Doug you've been like last way too often So and you just you and john just started a really cool and interesting conversation So let me actually start with uh, uh, Doug, john and stacey well, um I'm feeling fairly tongue-tied Recently because the situation is so complicated. It's hard to know what to say I think I've got two thrusts to my own thinking one is that we're on the titanic and we've already hit the iceberg That's one perspective, but that doesn't lead anywhere like what to do So I've picked on the idea of kind of resurrecting the arts and crafts movement The byline for which was a democratic architecture for a democratic america Small simple houses connected to gardens It's the kind of thing that can be done locally Despite the fact that things are falling apart in most localities Um, so it's something to work on. It's a wide wildcard. So I've been drafting this book called garden world politics Uh, and at the least it's been a fantastic journey having to read everything and think about a lot of history Uh, and it still seems to me like the plausible way to go for any kind of Humane future I'm fascinated by what a high tech Solution the climate change would look like But I think it requires an authoritarian centralized government And I don't want to go there. So that's kind of the framing of my thinking Um, I I know about arts and crafts, but I've never heard that lovely tagline a democratic architecture for a democratic america. That's really That's really cool Yeah, and if you go to many small towns in america, there are craftsmen houses That were part of that movement and of all things sold by sirs and robuck And their tools division their hardware division was called craftsmen Yeah, and I love the word craft. So And those houses are still among the most attractive in many small towns, right? When I lived in berkeley in the north berkeley hills, I lived in an eichler style home I was renting an eichler kind of home Joseph eichlers and it was a really interesting architect who built a lot of sort of glass and wood Structures, I was extremely happy that I didn't own that house Because it was like a termite trap and there were raccoons living under the house and boy that was just a And I had branches from the beautiful yellow pines and other trees that were on the property I had a several of them break through the roof and uh, skylights and stuff like that. So Happy not be there, but the house was gorgeous. It was really a lovely place I lived in a maybeck house when I was a grad student in berkeley. That was the most extraordinary experience um, cool. Thank you done and And I think a lot of us can identify with your distress about this is a As timothy. What's his name would say? This is a hyper object Which is a problem too complex to sort of wrap your arms around So we're just starting what to do and I think part of kevin and my disagreement on the google group was about My philosophy is let's try a lot of stuff in a lot of places and see what works Let's not dismiss particular strategies unless they're completely nonsense And And so I think each of us is trying to find where to lean on the lever And even which lever to lean on And to make sure we're not leaning on a lever that's that's like aiming energy the wrong way in some way, but But I think if we can create something that can help people sort their way to productive activities in the middle of that Disorientation, I think that's really useful And I don't want to point out that's a real mischaracterization of our disagreement, but you know Um, go ahead Kevin Well, I didn't dismiss those things I asked if that assumption was valid and where it had been proven that Videos change behavior. So I didn't dismiss it. I I question that assumption and ask for validation of where that worked Um, uh, to which I answered with some evidence and you came back said no and like the daisy daisy nuclear bomb Still mischaracterizing me as saying no, I still challenged You know some of the evidence and and where it worked and where it didn't work. Sorry I'm mischaracterizing you by saying that I thought At you were you were dismissing the usefulness of short videos. Were you not? I was asking where we could say they worked other than like, uh, it gets better What in in what way around complex issues have videos Caused behavior change to happen where you were assuming that I was trying to suggest that Little videos might actually solve complex issues, which is nowhere near what I was suggesting And okay, I mean we can go back and forth and you will say I I said it was wrong and you know It's it's not a I'm not being characterized Correctly in in your memory here. So I'm You know, it isn't that is that the art of communication, right? I mean if we find ourselves mischaracterized is that the thought of the person listening to us or the person of us or ourselves In in structuring a communication that is misunderstood But I mean it really so so my I mean having gone through a career of Corporate life where many times I had to learn the hard way how to communicate properly And because my background didn't prepare me for that I mean there's something to be said to be sensitive and cautious and and You know and and empathize with the miss you listener who completely misunderstands you And not double down and on on on miscommunications I think that's really the quacks of it, but at the end of the day We are the wonderful communicate a wonderful conversation coming out of it that actually enriched the topic. So it's all good um Yes, and I think it's our mutual responsibility to figure this out to to sort of move toward the middle and sort it out and I also think that Understanding how these things work in our community is important for our community So that we understand better how to approach these difficult topics in a way that's productive In a way that happens. Yeah, phil writes in the matter most chapters unfortunate historical examples of propaganda videos causing behavior change like the daisy nuclear bomb video that That was dropped back in the 60s that was like like deeply affected the political campaign And for the democrats, right? It basically the video basically said if you elect goldwater He's going to just go drop the bomb And we'll all be in trouble Do a southern Video project that was really effective There was women get trying to get Registered to vote when they were known by the families of the registrar and how's your mama and them etc And then they could would not yet Approved otherwise videos can work for simple choices where you do this What I was asking is can can we look at Where it works for a complex issue like climate change Um, awesome, and I was treating videos as a gateway drug if I can misappropriate a metaphor Thinking that sometimes short videos can be very activating just activating Which means they might cause somebody to go talk to somebody else or go google something or go join a movement or go whatever Whereupon we get much more complicated ways of solving or tackling the issue So that's that that was all I was looking for And I was aware that a lots of my Vocabulary is informed by things I've watched online like like I've absorbed these things and I refer to them mentally like oh, there's that and it's If I can drop something in your mental visual vocabulary through one of these little vehicles, that's really powerful That's interesting And it doesn't solve the problem, but it might actually contribute to it. So that's kind of where I was heading If one has a unified approach to complex problems, then It could be broken down into bite-sized pieces of which video is just one means of communicating that but I see the issue as being breaking down a complex Issue into right-sized pieces and understanding how those pieces Unify together and in that spirit Tony one of the things that I've done a lot with videos that I that I want to do more But it's difficult because it takes time Is tell a story in small nuggets where I try to design each nugget to be self-sufficient I gotta I put together a presentation for a vp at uh, you know What's it called airbus airbus on that in the last couple days if you want I could send it to you about it shows It's a candy. It's it's a simple two-person candy store It does a series of operations or tasks and how we break it down and partition it and could use that to communicate In right-sized chunks. So I could send you that love that if you if you can share the link with everybody, that'd be awesome Um, also the the movie 100 beating hearts. I think can send it around again I have posted this on systems thinking network, you know on linkedin Uh of our places because there is a it's a wonderful story that explains systems context And I had several people comment. This is the best video I've ever seen in my life because here you have people who Don't know anything about agriculture. Don't know much about the food system But the way this farmer was telling his story just bowed the lights go on So it is absolutely possible to to to have this this kind of story format Uh, and and it's a 10 minutes 10 minute video that really moved some people Uh, this too, I I haven't done a thing like that. Wow, how do Maybe offline somebody could tell me how to send it in Oh, sure. Well, there's the zoom chat right here And tony, I don't think you're on the matter most chat. Are you in matter most? I I don't know. I haven't I haven't been actually on it for quite some time, but I think I might have a Log in for it. I don't know cool. So if someone can repost the matter most chat link in the zoom chat Then anthony can quickly find out whether he can make his way into the chat that we're looking at right now We're trying to use we're trying to use this matter most chat as a persistent chat across our conversations Thank you for doing that craig Um Good so let's go back to our queue. Let's go. Um, john stacey Phil Thank you and good morning. Um Wow, uh, the the stuff I'm working on, you know in in my background. It's it's it's sort of pre-sharable at this point, but uh I'm I'm part of an ongoing conversation around identity digital identity self-sovereign identity and all the intricacies of trying to both do that in a responsible fashion Enable things like cross-border covid Verification and at the same time not in power um An overly centralized over authoritarian Uh approach to identity. Um, so that's that's what's going on in background um This conversation, I mean a couple of things I like about this conversation A fundamental idea that's kind of underneath that it and it's already been flagged is the idea of modularity and I really like modularity because it, um It's jewel, you know, you can talk about I mean, you know, what Doug's talking about is a small community We we obviously need to open to the idea of a that there will be some pioneers who will actually create a small geographic community There will be other pioneers that will go into a small town and hopefully graciously Think about doing something like this in the town without forcing everybody to you know operate a certain way but but create an example of Of better cooperation that's also green climate friendly, etc and what we're still exploring is What's the trade-off between virtual community and and real world community? And how do we make that interface? Um proactive in terms of um, it's it's beneficial effect on these big issues that were that we're concerned about So that's my my check-in so far thank you john and the the um The whole self-sovereign identity thing is on the one hand really necessary and on the other hand so complicated And and all by itself self-sovereign identity is not a thing people will go jump over and pay money for or or even change their behaviors for So it has to somehow be buried in the infrastructure We end up using or buried in other use cases and other kinds of value And that's just hard. And so I've been watching the internet identity workshop three years and Kalia and doc doing those and it's like it's a it's a hard thing to to succeed in Yeah, so just to finish up. I'm working closely with Kalia on that and um Editing her writing, which is an interesting challenge But again to link it to the idea of modularity. I I they're not you know, I To the extent that I have any input I would urge You know specific applications There are some already for high High authentication professions Ones you wouldn't might not necessarily think of like people who work in uh, las vegas They have to be multiply authenticated Lots of and repeatedly in lots of different ways Uh, and so they're like a prime candidate to that's the money is there To to to set up the self-sovereign and do it at the other extreme, uh, you know a foundation Could look at the question of um Okay, we have these refugees And they're they're they're leaving a government that's trying to kill them So they're definitely not going to get identity from that government And they have obvious needs and it would be in the interests of well Most countries most responsible countries would like Better confirmation of who they are A few would say no no because if the more you the more definite you make who they are the more complicated it is for us to just reject them, but You know, it seems like there there'll be enough There'll be a way to explore that and I hope that that becomes a modular application There's a question, uh in the chamber from gill about for us civilians Can someone explain the self-sovereign identity? Which would be good and but and by way of doing so i'm puzzled about the vegas example because For me self-sovereign identity is that each individual actually has sovereignty over their info And in vegas that doesn't seem to be part of the formula. What you want in vegas is like triple locks super secure Verification that you or you which means if I have to take a biopsy every time you come through the door I'll do that But but not that the that that you want the dealer at the table necessarily to control their own info or does it well the application that was, uh Proposed that I only I only heard about it at the proposal stage not at the execution stage was to give the individual Here's that you have a locker you have a digital locker Doesn't matter where you Amazon can have it google can have it doesn't matter It's almost like a blockchain because you can't really do much with it if you hack it Because it's got it's all the different parts of it are differentially encrypted So it's not worth it for the for the russians to hack your your locker And what does your locker do? Well, it allows you to select what it is you'd like to reveal to who up to the Judy do you mind muting? Yeah, sorry about that Okay, so um You you have a wallet and you and your wallet has a lighthouse on it or a you know a gatekeeper and the gatekeepers say Oh, you want some information about so-and-so who's asking? Oh Well, you have the right to have this information and not any other information So we're going to take that information off their driver's license, but we're not letting you see the driver's license That's the self sovereign part the part is says you get to you get to see what the individual has decided to give you It's the example that's used a lot is You're going into a bar and the bouncer is going to check your driver's license And by handing them your driver's license you're revealing your full name full address You know like all this info about you that's unnecessary the only thing the bouncer needs to know is Are you actually enough to be in this room? Which is what self sovereign identity can selectively reveal right? So that I mean, that's an easy to understand example uh only made You know, it's only the triviality of going into a bar that Discounts some of the power The other way to think about it. I don't know, you know, this is a whole discussion You can look at what india did as a non example as a counter example and and what all the negative consequences of that are But you know, I mean, this is a topic. I it's too big to To I mean I can answer questions about it, but I don't want to you know So india has a That's okay. This is interesting and useful. I think for us as background India has a national ID system called adhar, which I'll put a link to in the chat um And adhar got hacked basically early on And you can go to a bazaar in india and buy a cd rom with basically india's adhar ids and biometric Signatures on it. I think that's at least that's at least what's been said um And that just royally sucks like that's really really bad because they were trying to create a way of sort of like More than a social security number more than a more than an ID that would let people have bank accounts and Be identified for government services and all that and now that information is just on the loose Yeah, so it's kind of a an example of how not to do How not to do an identity system for our country? Right? Um So thank you. Um Let's go stacey phil neal So I found the email conversation really rich And I hope that at some point we could have a call just focusing on that Um, I do want to say as myself Who is a woman? I found the beginning of this call really overwhelming Um in the email it was easier for me to participate Um here I got I really had like an emotional reaction One of the things so now i'm going to say what like Something that a woman might have focused on in that conversation. I wasn't I was focused on My inclination is to look for strategies that encompass all other strategies That would be the conversation for this space But as a woman if there were more women in the room What I found interesting was something that I will just say someone said Make it identify themselves How they expressed How in the past They had stopped moving forward and on an idea Because someone else had Kind of threw a block in there And I think that's something that happens to a lot of people but especially to women or anyone that You know is coming from the bottom up And with that i'm complete Thanks, dacey um I appreciate that and Want us to focus on that over time and not sure I want to open that can again right this second and in particular I like sort of the The piece in collaboration we're having right this second, which is uh, which is good and fruitful So let's go um to phil neil and julian Um, thank you very much for sharing sissy. I'd also just to say I've begun to work with ogm And it kind of admin and operations capacity So I'd love to talk with you offline to discuss further how we can be kind of more welcoming and more inclusive of of those types of conversations um One thing I I had a conversation yesterday. I was a part of a talk yesterday with a group that was talking about the creation of a Of a virtual a virtual nation And it kind of reminded me of your ted talk about how we have these structures of education That we just kind of adopted and their premise was we have these structures of nations that we kind of just adopted based on geographic Lines basically, um, and their idea was to try and build a virtual Nation based on principles or shared ideals people who want a regenerative culture of people who want um To impact climate change and they're in a very initial stage But I think it could be a good group for ogm to work with moving forward. Um, yeah, I'll just Thanks phil and um, well, I'll I have a list of ogm neighbor communities Which are like other groups doing great work around the world on everything from just dialogue and discourse to revitalizing cities to whole ideas for how to reach structure the world to game be to whatever And a piece of what we've not gotten ourselves together to do yet Which I'd love for us to do is to reach out to some of these entities kind of in the lowest hanging fruit mode Like hey, these people are really like on a parallel path And and what does that mean we offer them and how do we approach them and what do we do? And just to layer on top of that for me that the most urgent of those are people not like us People of color and people in marginalized communities who don't have access to things How can we reach out to them and be helpful to them and they could probably use the most help And they have the least reason to be involved in an abstract discussion But they have a lot of usefulness for probably the wisdom that's carried in this room Uh, uh, you know brought brought in service. So I would love to do that more So thank you Um, let's go, uh, neil julian kevin Hi everybody, uh, it's been a little while again since I last saw you I missed the first part of this conversation So didn't pick up the details, but I did pick up a bit of the flavor and It's been the sort of thing that's been bothering me in the last week as well after a couple of social media encounters um There's a lot of trauma out there And a lot of trauma can be easily pointed back to somebody who looks like the one that traumatized And so if you speak out in a social media forum and it doesn't connect in the way that it was intended Then you've got a problem because then you have to start defending yourself or trying to clarify yourself And the more you do that the more you dig yourself into the hole of looking like you're mansplaining or you're explaining or you're doing something else Or you're reverting to form and ultimately ends up in the worst cases in cancellation canceling Um, the self cancellation. I think is really an interesting space to be in because it actually means that you're taking reflection very seriously looking at yourself and saying Is there something I could have done differently? And in the last couple of weeks I've been really seriously thinking about As a change agent given what I picked up some of the stuff about climate change If nobody goes to uncomfortable space nothing changes And so how do we stay in the uncomfortable space long enough for a new pattern to emerge? And part of me doggedly stays in there, especially if I've caused a disruption Long enough to see whether a new pattern can emerge and on one occasion in the last two weeks One of those conversations did turn around an initial spiritual meme posted completely out of context became Without any comment on it became a one page post which integrated some of the stuff which was coming up in the conversation Which wouldn't have happened if I hadn't challenged it And this is the challenge. I think john was pinning this down pretty well john kelly in his comments The online community which is a diaspora of people who might share a common interest But they're still in an undifferentiated group They have different levels of consciousness different worldviews different levels of understanding Different pretend roles in the world different ways of showing up. They're not real people Right until they show themselves and they can't show themselves until something prompts them to say something do something be something Otherwise you're just playing with an anime character, right and so These situations where we get ourselves into are the real situations and this is the work Some of us have to go there to create the discomfort and not be cancelled to hold it long enough to say Did you see this and we can't guarantee the outcome because we don't know who's going to get it and who's not And you won't know that until after the event, right? So I saw a wonderful little table recently that was posted on the peer-to-peer group And it was came came initially interestingly from people we know from here, uh, lauren and Charles blast and it was around brave space And in that case it was much more about identity and you know showing up as a transgender in an unsafe place, etc I'm very very keen to see how we show up with different levels of knowledge and understanding about the predicament we're in That has no solution Which is eco social collapse and we're in it How do you actually put that on the books to have a real conversation about it? When most people are in oh, don't worry. It'll be okay. We're all one or don't worry. Techno utopia will fix us all up Or and so there's multiple perspectives So I'm looking to rewrite that table to help to frame and introduce some of the conversations that my partners and bill in here And david jago facilitated in australia want to have around and now what? Now that we know this and now what so stop pretending it's not happening All right, if you don't get it All right So there need to be things like warnings on the door They need to be maps that say beware there be dragons They need to be menus on the door if you want to come in here recognize this is the restaurant This is what we serve but don't blame us for serving you what was on the menu All right, and so we have to somehow get to a space that's safe enough Right not safe Safe enough because otherwise change will not happen And I'll leave it at that But I hope that fits in a bit of what was being said here And I'm working with a couple of people in this group to to address that and to see how we bring I guess the the ethical Underpinnings and the ethical principles required to hold safe enough space Which requires a different level of cognitive complexity A different level of depth a different level of worldview than what most of the population is capable of doing And it's not hierarchical. It's pure recognition of the way reality works All right, and we have to work out how to do this and if some of us can't go there nobody's going to get anywhere Thanks, everybody You'll thank you. Thank you very much Um, let's go Whoops To julian kevin and judy So I don't have much of a check in for the last four weeks. I've been dealing with a double attack of vertigo It's really hard to concentrate for any long period of time and I haven't been able to get any work done But I'm hoping this is going to resolve soon And uh following up on what neil just said since my goal is to actually build working knowledge management systems One of the application areas I want to do is something that will make people feel uncomfortable And not in the way that you stare at a screen and you see all these graphs and charts that say all these dire things are going to happen, but of using technology to bring it home to make it the visceral experience that We need to be uncomfortable to do something about it. So I look forward to doing that when I come look at a compiler again. So Julian Microsoft teams is really good at making people feel uncomfortable Thanks, kevin Julia, I imagine you're speaking from from uh real experience if you've been uncomfortable with vertigo from last month As long as it's not that sort of sensation already you might have to go I've also found Microsoft teams to be very comfortable and one of the best All around group where when it's well designed and well led So I have a much different experience than say kevin might Yeah, I can't get it to work on my iPad and I can't get it to download on my My laptop so I use it by phone. So that's just my My uncomfortable though. I don't think I was speaking literally and literally making people vomit But rather feel that there's a situation that they can't just look at that They need we have to realize that they are in it and need to do something about it It was just a cheap little joke I'm with you on it though. It's Thank you, and I just I just want you to feel better soon julian Um It's a weird irony that you deal in three-dimensional stuff, which is a more spatial sort of thing and you're having vertigo attacks. So Oh, I'm trying to make some good use of it because you know part of my research is in How to leverage the human cognitive system and build interfaces to it So going through this experience has given me some more data points for them The hard way the hard way exactly Um, thank you. Let's go kevin judy bentley. Um, yeah, I've just come back from You're cutting out on us well, um Now it's better. Okay I'm come back from pretty extraordinary time in the mississippi delta with a group called the junebug society kind of a A literary historical society looking at confronting mississippi's past You know on race one thing that's Mississippians are different is that races don't lie And so if you speak up you have to stand up because you've already taken the business and social and and all the other costs and once I when I moved out to California, I discovered that coastal liberals were not at all reliable because they would say things and not do things and so this group, you know You know, we had our mississippi has one crazy mean and dumb senator and she was not there But the guy the guy was there, uh, who he helped get our flag The the stars and bars the rebels symbol off the the flag, but that used up a couple years at his Social capital and he wrote a really strong thing about Emmett till and the lynching that was there We were there to lay a stone at the And and inter Billy Joe McAllister who jumped off the Tallahatchie bridge on June the 3rd and also visited Robert Johnson's grave and I think you know, it's a There's there's a resolve to to face the past, you know that I think Places with the most benighted history can do that, uh, you know, again I just was shocked when I moved to california that people would say good things and not do things and That is just how unreliable, you know, coastal liberals are and as a class Whereas, you know, if a southern is speaking about race, he he or she is usually telling the truth because They're against the norm and so So we're looking to really do something with this and we I wrote a piece that is being distributed and when folks working in the criminal justice system and stuff on the pasta white folks of of the bargain that The Baptist preachers did in preaching to the slaves owned by the Anglicans They had to say That exodus was spiritual didn't mean let my people go And they couldn't mention jubilee the the freeing of the slaves or the Forgiveness of deaths or stopping intergenerational land grabs And uh, because they thought those were dangerous and what it so it made the the poor whites complicit with the plantation monopolists and what the cost of that has been That is in heather mcgee's book some of us that explains it really well So anyway, it's going to be distributed among the criminal justice folks in in Working in that in in mississippi and some other places. It's a pretty interesting thing happening And kevin, I love the story that you told on the google group. Thank you for for sharing that and i'm like Really would love to figure out how to help Create more situations like that and help people move their audiences themselves and their audiences to these new places um I must pause for a second and say okay, so all coastal liberals are undependable. That's interesting Just kind of said that anybody else want to raise your hand if you heard that Jerry you are mischaracterizing and making what I said is a total thing I discovered that they are unreliable because Coastal liberals will say good things and not I agree that some do but you just made a blanket statement I did not I did not I heard it. I'm mischaracterizing me again. Jerry. I'm not sure heaven Kevin listen to other people on the call for a second. Would anybody else like to chip in? Gil I heard you say coastal liberals are under lab say blanket generalization several times Gil go ahead. I I heard a broad statement not a blanket characterization. They're different to me I don't make blanket statements like that anymore I'm like most or some I put a qualifier word in there so that people know that I'm not saying that everybody who lives on the coasts And is a liberal is undependable Which is a general statement. I would kind of agree with Kevin So this this may be a self sovereign identity identity thing But I don't hear Kevin is saying it as a blanket statement Whatever whether you put the qualifying word in or not because of what I know of him I didn't hear it as blanket if it was a stranger. I might have interpreted cherry the way you do And I'm not definitely not I heard it as an observation of an experience that surprised him when he came to california I didn't hear it as a blanket statement That's where we've been on the call So this is really important for the discussion that we've been having in that who was that I think claus said earlier Which is how do we have conversations among people that don't just disagree but who experience the world in different ways And you know, we have you know, kevin is speaking out of his Interpretation of his experience of other people's interpretations of the world and we're speaking out of our interpretations Of what landed in us from what kevin said, which for none of us is exactly what kevin said And that's you know, that's sort of the reality of how we live as human beings in the world And it's damn messy and here we are talking about hyper objects. It's makes it even worse And we started off by talking about, you know, can videos move hyper objects? Well, fuck no No one thing can do anything with that. So we're in this, you know in this swirling inter twingled field and I don't know. I'm a little uncomfortable Kevin and jerry with both of you that there's a charge on the conversation I don't know where it came from but it feels feels weird to me Neil I could just kind of Somebody somebody posted a quote a couple of hours ago. Uh, it may have been a ken homer. I'm not sure Um by france war garrignon Between what I think I want to say what I believe I'm saying What I say what you want to hear what you believe you understand and what you understand There are at least nine possibilities for misunderstanding And that's without the combinatorics of it Exactly and this links into what I was saying earlier as well in that in an asynchronous facebook comment where we're always involved The interpretation changes over time because the context has changed in this particular case even the post changed over time And so, you know, whatever snapshot in time the interpretation you take if you haven't taken the context, which is what class was saying context is so critical And that's my point that if we can't hold safe enough space for us to have a collectively shared context We cannot prioritize We cannot find collective ways forward because we actually have a different map of the world And especially if you're starting with an undifferentiated audience But I'm I'm also sorry to see that that charge is in the room But I I understand it. Maybe it's hitting everybody. Maybe it's the eclipse But um, I know I've certainly felt it and that's why I expressed it and obviously it's already in this room as well But yeah, thanks. Thank you Kevin go ahead Kevin you unmuted so I figured you wanted to step back into the conversation Uh, you just remuted yourself Did you ask me to respond? Yeah, uh, you don't need to respond. I just felt that you wanted to What I can say is that, you know, my universal experience of white senators Is that when they speak about race, they are reliable because there is a cost to Be on one side and when I talk to Coastal liberals, they are not reliable in my experience because They are capable of saying one thing and not doing it And so I'm that's not a blanket statement about all coastal liberals. It's just that there is a cost for Expressing their racism that is hidden covert Implicit or whatever and so they don't so they they've learned to say the right things because there is a cost for Not saying being on that side, but that they that they Do not therefore step up and do things and so when I say reliable It means I cannot tell whether they are somebody who Speaks and does or just speaks Which is an observation. I appreciate a lot Thank you That's what I was saying before but you mischaracterized the third time I heard all what coastal liberals are I never there was a fuse that just went off in my head Yeah, you heard the word all and it wasn't said, you know, that's just that's how you're interpreting what I'm saying I'm getting tired of I would I would just say so I have a I have a friend of columbia. She's columbia educated came of age in new york and she wanted to teach for america in clarkville, mississippi um, and she shares That kind of realization that people have this bias towards things that happen in places like mississippi where they say the right things But don't actually act upon it. Um, so kevin, I do see where you're coming from I see both sides of it, but I do see where where you're coming from I totally appreciate your point kevin. I I think that's like like deep Let's go judy bentley paul Um, i'm gonna be really brief because it's it's constant sort of thing But almost every organization i'm working with is trying to deal with different diversity inclusion issues And they're coming at them rather differently. Some are working. Some are not It's heightened my sensitivity to things that happen in conversations that Um, shut people down So geriat to be honest I was bothered when you shut stacy down because last week the whole focus was why is this group not more inclusive of women And she gave you some direct feedback and you pretty much shut her down and said you wanted to stay in this intellectual realm So just that's where I am right now Um, and I'm sorry. I don't um, I don't remember shutting stacy down in that way Um, you didn't want to go down that rabbit hole today When she said that something had happened in the conversation that she felt uncomfortable with Shoot, okay. I will I will go back and and and see what stacy, please In this particular case, I just want to say Again, if it could have been a little tweak because I agreed with not going down this rabbit hole in this call That part I agreed with I would have liked to have heard You know, I hear what you say I think we should have another call on that because in this case it wasn't a rabbit hole I wanted to go down now. It was actually a huge rabbit hole that I'd like to get out of And yes, and you said you said that for some other things jerry of let's have a call about that Right, but you didn't pick that up here. I apologize for that and this is a giant issue for us So it's really important that we do have conversations about that specifically And thank you judas for saying that. Yeah, judy. Thank you for bringing that up You're welcome Bentley Paul Dave This whole conversation I find fascinating I was thinking about I've heard some discussion about the format of these calls and maybe it would be interesting if You know, almost every suggested topic is tabled and when people come on and share their ideas For the short thing that they could say, oh, yeah, I kind of like and I'd like to participate in these and maybe we can have You know, it's a record of what the tabled conversations are and then Um, have the people Break off and have those discussions And I do like the idea of having a discussion of Kind of the brave spaces and also kind of how we communicate I uh, I was surprised At my reaction when I made a suggestion and it seemed like a lot of people were Misinterpreting it. Um, and I'm usually pretty Um, resistant to that years of throwing out stupid ideas But it really triggered me this time and I just nearly like rage quit so And that's probably more on my side than anyone else's but it'd be interesting to discuss how both the speaker and the listener And we can improve together on that because yeah languages Very imperfect. Um, and very misleading. Um, there's almost no way to do it right and I wouldn't expect All the listeners to understand what I was trying to say and I and hopefully they're not expecting me to say it perfectly um But yeah, that's something I'd like to explore in another meeting and then someone also kind of mentioned truth and That triggered me although I don't expect anyone to do it So I'm a big believer that there is some sort of truth. We can never get to it But are one of the great goals is to get closer to it Um Yeah, so those are the thoughts that just kind of came up as I listened um, but yeah, a lot of my project right now is trying to Uh for gollybot is gollybot trying to interpret people what they're saying and the most generative way even strengthen their arguments Uh, or their discussions Uh, strengthen the the information that they're bringing to the conversation And then kind of gather it all together in one place so that people can explore it efficiently Um, so if anyone's interested in and working on that I'll enjoy Thanks, Bentley. And thanks also for personally picking up the notion of inclusion in these calls and offering a productive path forward and so forth. I really appreciate that Um, and I think that that conversation is evolving in really good ways that there are things that we can actually go do Um, sorry, I really like that Um, and there's a piece of me that would love to just slow down our conversations and these calls Uh, and then there's a piece of me that wants to make it through the room because we're sort of here together and we want to hear from What's happening and so forth. So Um, Michael, did you want to jump in? I did I did want to say, um, just I don't I don't know I feel like I don't know if if uh, if something I said might have been one of the things that um that triggered you Bentley and if it was I it it's just it This I was feeling very much on the outside of the of the friction that was existing and thinking boy, I never I never would do that and then I realized when that we spoke up that I might have um in in reaction to something which I realized now could be interpreted a different way that I meant it and and A snipe and I feel terrible about that right now. Um, but you know, it's um Yeah, I uh I'm I'm sorry actually I I'm like, uh, so Yeah, let's discuss that to me I wouldn't lie when you said I'm not sure that you should take any That you should feel sorry I don't think it was that abuse It wasn't abusive at all. I I don't think it I don't you shouldn't feel bad at all But maybe there's an opportunity for both of us Yeah, yeah, yeah Sorry, just had to jump in my spot Bentley you don't let strategic levers like that go you could have grabbed that and yanked it and yanked it and yanked it Yeah I'm I'm kidding. I've got to go guys. I'm sorry. Um dinner is smelling very good in the background and I'll be I'll be cut off at the knees if I don't go for it shortly, but thanks very much And I look forward try and catch up here next week. Thank you. Thanks for being here um Good, I'm just making sure I have my list. Um, so paul dave michael Am I the paul? Yes, you are. You're the only paul on the call. There's two marks So I got to keep the mark straight, but there's you're the only paul. Okay. Um, I think I'd rather pass right now because I'm still learning Just what their group is and I think the main focus is climate change, but there's other things too So let me just pass and come back to me Thanks paul. Um climate change is one of our issues. We're trying to figure out how to How to break through the Gordian knot of people not being able to collaborate on things like climate change And I think I'll I'll just add is where I live I think we had the first the country's first fire in red in which is just north of here And just south of here was the campfire that burned out paradise And so whether you believe that or not it's happening and it's a pretty fast wake up call and uh In so many ways, it's we're still reeling from it. There's lots of homeless people who lost their houses. There's You can just feel that Climate change is influencing this very conservative area And it's just it's closer and harder to deny Thanks paul Um, uh, just for people who don't know mark karanza just posted, uh an excerpt from his note ticking tool So this is this is what he uses for since 1984 to sort of remember and mark and connect What's happening? So if it's puzzling that's uh, and I believe that the numbers in front of the phrases are how many inward inbound references Each of those things has is that correct mark? Cool. Um, so let's go dave michael tony Uh, hi everybody. Yeah, I haven't I haven't been in that many of these calls. I usually have a conflict. So good to see everybody I'm you know, it's a pretty rich conversation going on here Uh, I was struck by it's something to kind of echo some of the stuff we were some people were talking about earlier this week but I'm I'm curious about this idea that like the the the the body humanity needs we need We need uh, like you need to be able to give it a physical in some sense I was I was thinking that there's a metaphor around Biology and like the temperature of humanity is high or something You know, we we've got an infection or something and things are weird and and how do you diagnose that and how would we recognize it and You know, I don't I don't think we have but and we were talking about murders and various Why why is the murder rate going up across in cities across the u.s. Why would that happen simultaneously? But um, I was thinking there's another example of that which I'm seeing in companies um, or organizations where I think there's a Maybe maybe a power shift going on I think we're seeing it with employment where unemployed people aren't having to seek employment So that people with companies are trying to desperately find people to work for them That seems like a power change, but also uh, like in my consulting firm. There's a group There's a big battles over what uh, what consulting contracts to take And it's a lot of it's around dei And who who could you work for it's like there's an opposition to working for the u.s. Senate For example, and it's like well if we can't work for the u.s. Senate Who can you work when it's because cotton works there, right? So, you know, there's an argument that says you shouldn't work for the u.s. Senate, but But it's a very it's a very tricky kind of thing And so the and and there's a power if you if you decided kind of unilaterally to work for the u.s. Senate And just ignore people then you do have to blow back within the organization itself So there there is a power, you know negotiation going on And i'm seeing this in a few different organizations of people that i've been talking to where there's just You know a group of people kind of ready to blow everything up if things don't get better And it's like i'm not quite sure what to do with it. So Anyway, good convert. I think you're on the theme of these conversations and it seems like a very rich theme Thanks, dave Yeah, and all of this is happening in the middle of kind of a vigilante Off with their heads sort of culture where it's difficult to step into these conversations You know, whether it's called cancel culture or something else. It's just really difficult to step into these places in public And survive difficult conversations. So how might we How might we help difficult conversations happen more fruitfully? That'd be a good objective julian I had a question for david. Is the reluctance to work with the senate. Is that philosophical or because of the very large labor burden of dealing with the federal government? uh, david muted um The the firm does a lot of government work. So it's not the overhead. It's really the you can't work for the senate because they have tomcott Well, there we go gill You're muted as well Dave does that mean that they wouldn't work with bernie Because tom cottons in the same body as bernie. I don't get that was kind of the issue, right? Yeah, and so and is it and is that we I've ended up splitting into there are genuine issues, right? I mean, I think there are groups that you probably we're not going to go work for the nra Um, so like there is an organizational rule that says no we won't work for the nra but But then there's the senate and then there's projects in the senate. Would you build tom cottons website? I don't know. I mean, it's it's just messy It's weird could Please go ahead. Can I offer something more here? um, two parts of it one is in connected what I think jerry or someone just said before about um Kind of conversations we can be I I have found that I am Self speaking of self. I self sovereign and self identity. I find that I'm I'm censoring myself in social media I'm I'm you know I'm choosing not to get involved in certain conversations not because it's not a priority on a time But because I'm concerned about the firestorm that could result From the interpretations of things that I say That I think might be a useful contribution to the conversation, but I sniff that the conversation could go South or nasty very quickly Anybody else having that experience? It was a chilling effect of this kind of vengeance culture that causes lots of us to step back and not participate lots and lots it feels like there's deliberate baiting going on And attempts to increase polarization rather than come to shared understanding and that Causes me not to want to engage at all in the conversation at hand Yeah, I can Was talking with fernando last night about bernice reagan. I don't know if people know her. She was Early activist in civil rights movement one of the songsters that accompanied the demonstrations in the south in the hard times of that and Co-founder of sweet honey and rock and a smith smith smith sony and the executive for years and she said in a speech in 1984 That you know semity I think a feminist conference said this is what this is that is often what it feels like if you're really doing coalition work Most of the time you feel threatened to the core and if you don't you're not really doing no coalescing I'm bernice reagan. I was born in georgia and I'd like to talk about the fact that in about 20 years It's 1984 a member about 20 years would turn up in another century I believe that we're positioned to have the opportunity to have something to do with what makes it into the next century And the principles of coalition are directly related to that You don't go into the coalition because you just like it The only reason you would consider trying to team up with somebody who could possibly kill you Is because that's the only way you can figure out. You can stay alive So we face the challenge of Finding ways to talk with and work with people who not just aren't like us, but who don't like us and who we don't like Because without that, how do we muster? The the political power and the cultural power to actually transform the world. It's not going to be done by a bunch of us Whether in mississippi or in mill valley It takes something much bigger and it's and bernice's point and her other line on this which was one I heard from her directly. She said Um, here we go She said if you're in a coalition and you're not deeply uncomfortable most of the time Your coalition's not broad enough So that's a great quote skill. Um, if you could share them with us on the chat Thank you. That's great. Go ahead ken uh, you're muted All these newbies on the call today. It's amazing. This feels uh Deluded compared to what uh, gill was just quoting. I have a friend of mine who um And she we shared the same indigenous teacher and she said, you know when determining whether to work with an organization or not She looked for what she called noble intent. So she was a pacifist and she was asked to work for the air force And you know, it's like i'm a pacifist. How can I work for the air force? And the thing was it was actually the air force hospital at the um, Air force academy It's like well, these people are trying to do healing. So they do have noble intent And you know when I think of working for the senate If the senate were able to convince me that they really had noble intent I'm wanting to to break the part the partisanship and and get to how can we serve america? I'd go in to work for them The challenge is right now as gill was just pointing out, you know, there's a lot of vest interests who are clearly saying We don't care. We're in power. We're gonna keep power at any cost and that becomes a really different Approach of how do you How do you With someone who says no, I've got the power. I'm gonna keep the power and I will keep you oppressed for as long as possible Um, we're gonna do a davin goya thing here. So I don't have an answer to that, but it's a really interesting question Thanks ken. So yeah, thanks ken. That's really helpful Yeah, um, I actually for a while worked in northern ireland in an intercommunity NGO that was based in kind of rebuilding community after after the troubles um, and one massive thing for them Was storytelling and truth and getting people together from both sides Of the conflict and hearing each other's stories and hearing each other's truths I think one big thing in america is there is a rejection of people's truth People's individual truths and how we how we Face that and how we work through that is is is very important Love that. Um, nonviolent communication is a really lovely terribly named and really lovely process They're trying to get people together around difficult issues and one of the magic properties of nbc is that it requires that each party Here and then mirror back to the other party what they think the other person said not that they believe it They're not agreeing. It's just that can they can they mouth back to the person? This is what I think you said to the point where the other person be like That that's what I said So I feel heard and the act the act of having your brain filter and then speak those words Seems to soften people a bit toward each other and get them a little bit closer and I love that about it And I'm wondering how many more places we can build that into human activities Because if I hear someone's story and can tell you know can express it back to them. I think that's really important somehow because sometimes Some you know we see sally struthers asking for donations for the small starving child and In some other countries so often that we get immune we get numb to the world to the world's difficulties And it's these stories when they feel personal and close that change us and there's a bunch of there's a few stories of You know families that were vaccine doubters or sorry coronavirus doubters until coronavirus wiped out a piece of their extended family And that came too close to home and changed them a lot On the senate, I had a friend who was on the senate staff when they passed the earned income tax credit And he realized the democrats wanted it to exist and the republicans wanted it not to work and both got their way And he left Let's go michael tony mark Can I just Jump in with one Please pass I got I got into Heated conversation on systems thinking that i'm not on on the sustainability professionals at linkedin Because I posted an article on bill gates where It sort of outlined how bill gates with his poorly informed Understanding of agriculture and food systems created a nightmare for For the industry really because he spent a couple billion dollars getting Getting these plant-based Protein extracts into the market. He's a he's a part owner of both impossible meats and beyond meats No, he is a founding actor in these things. He started a laboratory in seattle in around 2004 to the very early in the game To specifically research how to extract protein out of plants and make it taste like meat So so he has been driving this whole thing and so the article is very factual and the Administrator of the block had a total meltdown Because he's working for nestle is an independent consultant who works for no large food companies And so now we are we are in in this is this is fake news. This is conspiracy theories and all of that And here here is a guy who is supposed to administer the sustainability professional sustainability experts Threat and then you go if you don't get it and if you can't jump over Your your your frame of mind um How in the world are we going to align you know the professionals in the industry who who need to Process what is really happening in nature and how urgent this is So communication and and making it through these barriers Is is an enormously difficult topic now and and uh I posted all sorts of information for him, but it's just bounces off on on because Yeah, he was saying I want to review, you know your posts with our team on friday and but he was saying I want to basically I want to review your fake news on friday Is there one don't bother reviewing it because you're So so I don't know how to break through it But I think if we make it actionable, right? If we show young Folks or we show people in general that if you want to your community To become a better place And a more secure place in in in the way that your ecosystem is is designed Here's what you can do, you know be practical actionable Show ways out instead of how terrible it is. What could it be? I think we You know, we need this visualization and then we can get out of all this conflict Stacey did you want jumping? Yeah, if I could point out why I think The emotional reason for that person's reaction um Bill Gates has been made a demon of the anti-vaccine people So people that have been watching a lot of this anti-vaccine propaganda See Bill Gates being blamed and I think by using that name It just charges people to where they can't look at what you're saying the truth of it Without all that emotion So the way I usually frame stuff like that is some people are buying up and then I try to create a situation Where they're going to look into it and they're going to say well, wait a minute. Who's buying this up? Why are they buying it up instead of already seeing all the facts because we're naturally suspicious Does that make sense I think so and there's plenty of reasons to be suspicious and then now there's Lots of media to help people take their suspicions in weird very very strange directions and that's that's not working well um, so Michael Tony mark um Wow um I feel like um There's The the the opportunities we've taken um for for Discomfort and well, I'll just speak for me, you know, I'm feeling uncomfortable. I'm hearing what what other people are saying about um discomfort and I'm struck by the fact that we are like With the exception of phil, you know all uh People with some gray in our hair. Let's just say I won't put an age on it um and uh We are you know We are very a very homogenous group and um And we can make each other uncomfortable That's really saying something to go to what gill was saying about being in a coalition And I don't know it just sort of I feel like being in other rooms Sorry, I'm I'm I'm a little uh A little uncomfortable, but you know, there's something that um, Dave um said in the chat about um As as white males and I don't want to misquote you Dave. Um, you know as as straight white males of a certain age or Whatever, maybe we should be chilled a little bit and maybe we should And and you know where I took that was you know, maybe we should be Going into other rooms and just listening and other spaces and just listening and just trying to understand better um and and And looking to what actions we can take and this you know to what Kevin was saying about You know without reopening a can of worms but about um Coastal liberals um You know, there's there's a lot of virtue signaling that goes on I'm part of it. Um Where We're trying to look the way we want to look to each other um and Say the things that are gonna Make us feel okay about ourselves and hope other people feel okay about us in this room and You know, I just I just wonder this this all gets so meta That like being in other spaces with other people who are more different than we are listening to what they're saying And taking actions as opposed to talking um Seems like a place I want to go um, you know, I value this this place and um, this is not like, you know, I'm out of here because of our over this stuff when we're such a homogenous group um You know, I think we do we do each other a lot of good but I also think um Jerry there was something you said earlier. Um when when phil was bringing up um this uh This entity that we were talking to yesterday and and you saying You know, that's something something we should do is is um You know in this group is more reaching out and you know making a list of aligned groups and reaching out to groups I mean, I've been in this group for A few months and I know it's existed for over a year and Getting out into other, you know spaces making lists of those spaces spending less time Together talking about what we think And more time listening to what other people are doing and seeing how we can support them Is really there's there's no barrier on that, you know, we can we can all do that today um, and and any of the past 365 today's um, so I'm just I'm just feeling all that I realize that's a a lot so That's my check Michael thank you for thank you for carrying that into the conversation um, I feel that really sharply and I feel like I'm the obstacle I'm one of the big obstacles that keeps us from actually getting things done because Uh, I'm not that good at getting things done and I have this ambition to get things done and It all gets tangled up And we've spent a bunch of time and effort well a lot of effort In the last six months trying to stand ogm up as an entity so that it can take action on some of these things We've also spent a lot of time in the last year plus trying to get some infrastructure parts in place so that we can see Who we are and see who else is out there and then go reach out And it's all moving way slower than I wish it were and I appreciate And then pained by What you said and not not in any reflection on you just like you're you're right on you're like you're You're right on um, let me go to stacey and beg To go back to what we were talking about on the email If we could I'm wondering could we just each come here with one project that we think Would be worthy of highlighting and it doesn't have to be your own So in kevin's case it would be his own but for other people if you could just bring forward one thing that you saw Just just just as a starting place That would be my suggestion I like that and I want I want us to I want to have a separate call which I will now set up Phil can we make sure we do this like next week? I want to set up a call about what does outreach mean like like we have a long list of interesting projects already and Just just the list of things that those of us in the room are deeply already personally involved in is a great list So we've got stuff We just don't know what it means for ogm to reach out and be of service and try to help and connect with them And invite them in we don't we don't know what that is and we need to work through it a little bit So we have a tiny bit of structure And you know understand what is it we can offer? How do we go about doing this and then when we have an interesting project? It doesn't just sort of float by on the list But we go awesome who's interested in being part of the x crew whatever we call it That the expeditionary force that that goes and reaches out to these people or who's already connected So I'd love to I'd love to figure out a mechanism to imp to like act on the cool stuff That's already like floating in front of us. Yeah, I think getting the list first would be the first step. Just get the list Thanks, sassy um Doug then Phil Yeah, I don't think that we are I don't think we are such a homogeneous group I think the actual differences in our underlying philosophy of life and epistemology are really deep found and full of conflict and we Have one of the tasks for this group could be to learn how to explore those differences further Thanks, Doug. I'm Judy then Phil And you muted I was just going to comment that I actually think what's been happening recently in ogm is really positive It does take energy to convert thoughts into action teams And there are now all of these teams that are doing things in addition to talking about them and doing them with other people from ogm So rather than viewing that as a frustrating process I'm seeing it as a very generative and positive step the group's changing But by doing that it's changing what it means to be in ogm And so I think we're dealing with different levels of ogm-ness if you will it's very ogm I mean to grab a bunch of people who are all interested in The climate sustainability issues and gather up a global force of the world try to look at it and share experiences and things that might work It's just not the classic thursday call And so I think it'll invite us to examine other approaches To sharing our information and communicating because the level of communication is increasing really rapidly in the last six months With all of the different things on matter most that you can track All of the flow that's coming through the main ogm channel plus the other matter most channels plus side group channels I'm finding that it's mushrooming kind of So I don't want you to feel bad about it. I think you should feel good about it Thank you. I really appreciate that Phil and then we're uh, we have to wrap the call at the half hour So then we have six more minutes and I've got a list of people who haven't been in the room yet Go ahead Phil Just really quickly I'm working right now on the kind of role And responsibilities description of this admin and ops role and the very core of it is to kind of get the Kick the ogm into gear as As working on projects inviting people in creating partnerships So I just wanted to put out a call to a call for anyone who has any input I can share what I have written down so far in terms of what I see as as needs But if there are things like engaging spacey and judy on on some of More more inclusive tactics and the topics to come up in these conversations How we how we address the topics to come up in these conversations and make them more actionable I'm I'm all yours and the tuesday calls are now Basically to work on these kinds of things. So if you want to participate in helping Build out these mechanisms and so forth. Please join us Tuesdays at 7 a.m. Pacific not 8 a.m So they're a little earlier, but the tuesday calls are meant to be all about this Stacy is your hand up from before? Oh, yes. I'm sorry. Okay. No worries Let's go tony mark gill and see how much how much we can get through in five minutes Yeah, hi. I um recently viewed a video Put on by I don't know if people know derrick cabrera Cognitive solid psychology side columbia and his wife laura Gerald midgley, you know, gerald taylor and professor midgley. They failed his first name And man, it was it was very very really revealing about systems thinking Basically, they said, uh, they're lost Uh, cabrera says that, you know, he can't keep trying to get people in his program for systems thinking Just telling them that systems thinking is to 2 800 disparate parts that don't work people say I can't get a job No one that Midgley said the same thing that unless we could come up with a unified approach The systems thinking the whole career field is going to fall apart. I believe them It's been my observation through my work experience through years that unless we have a unified approach to system thinking Ain't nobody going to solve no problems Other than little point solutions. That's that's my opinion and um, You know It's my opinion what needs to be done to come up with the unified systems Systems thinking has gotten entirely away from vision statements like claus was talking about the other day Dealing with goals and how the goals all interrelate. It's all about causality, which is Done after the fact after we understand the system Then we look at the system in terms of causality But we cannot just up front do big causal loop diagrams and stock and flow diagrams Which is the prescribed norm nowadays and expect to get anywhere with anything those things They're not goal focused without focusing on a goal. We just wander all over the place So that's that's what the my thought is in terms of this group doing something If we could have success with any little any little start off small don't start off big Any little success on a project that presents systems thinking in a unified way We'd rock the world because Is that a bad Tony Tony, thank you for that um My personal experience with systems thinkers very deep systems thinkers is that if I ask Six systems thinkers what systems thinking is I'll get eight answers That's right And and I don't and I don't know that they're easily reconciled I don't know that they fit together well, but I but I think many of them not all of them Are really useful in understanding how systems work So so maybe a meta system of systems or something like that Uh that allows these things to coexist So I I don't know what tangible thing to point to because if we let one Systems thinking model rule them all and I'll agree to use that Many of these things have blinders and are really counterproductive There's parts of systems thinking that are used or used lies to benefits But a unified holistic system Um approach is not out there And what I'm thinking of doing is creating a hypothetical very just barely complex enough organizational system I've been working on this Yeah, and showing the parts and how they all interrelate if we if we if we come up with the unified approach doing that We're way ahead of the game But what anybody including these from what I see to leading universities have been able to put together Yeah, and there's there's a whole bunch of practitioners out there all doing different kind of things kind of all scattered in different directions Um, let's uh go to mark Caronza and you may have the last word in this call Yeah, am I unmuted you are unmuted we hear you loud and clear great. Um my uh zoom when I click on Immute it takes several seconds to change the uh icon oddly enough. Um I'd like to go tiny bit personal I can pass for white And I can pass for old And I can pass for male I can even pass for a system thinker um I find it intimidating sometimes especially at the beginning of this call to kind of jump in and uh kind of Jump up to the pace and the I don't know seemingly Hmm Big speaker kind of feeling of some of the participants um Not too intimidated, but but I can kind of Kind of feel the energy sometimes Of this space differently from the other space that I'm familiar with which is kiko lab, which seems to Have many more conversations in the same amount of time um I'm not sure how to create a metric for that, but I'll just very quickly say I'm healing from lymphoma. I got sick which was even worse feeling from cancer like an intestinal bug and I'm like, oh my god um Trying to get back to work at the internet archive. Um Uh, I'm just gonna pick up my computer there and take it home because I don't want to risk infecting anybody others with this bug I got um Boy Work is hard Um, I'm gonna have to cut back on I'm trying to ramp up on say going to matter most and reading matter most. Um And participating there, um gosh things take lots of time One of the favorite quotes from Kevin Kelly's book out of control was that biological systems take biological time Certainly, um for something that's under a year old um There are many organisms that at a year old have already Reproduced, um, but there are different strategies and different kinds of evolutionary um replication reproduction strategies that Can serve as a model for What we're attempting to do and um, I'd like to uh You know think more about what those models of reproduction are Again biological not so much technological or system um cybernetic based models I have been reading Stafford beer rereading Stafford spear designing for freedom um It's a it's a wonderful and highly suggested Uh little document I think it would be very difficult for people who don't have a systems thinking introduction To read even though he's kind of trying to address a general audience And that's my check in and I'll try to be Short, but I see julian has his hand up Julian briefly and then I've got a rep or call Uh, actually mine was a question directed at claus and marcaranza, which is that First we had a data warehouse and then data lake and then we've got data fabric And I'm wondering where the systems thinking fit into that tax only Sounds like a question to take to the boards Oswords I mean systems thinking is I gotta hop off. Yep the same here. Um Gentle friends. Thank this has been a deep and sometimes tough call and I really appreciate your presence And I need to absorb lessons from this call. So thank you all