 In the name of God, the most beneficent, the most merciful, and I'd like to open with a greeting of universal peace for all of you. We say in Arabic, As-salamu alaykum, and that just is translated as peace be upon you. I wanted to really acknowledge Marcia and the team at Interfaith Interconnect for hosting these beautiful programs that I've been honored to be a part of for several years now. So when the invitation came, of course, I accepted it. So thank you so much for having me here. I do have a presentation, and I'm going to try to get through the slides as quickly as possible. So let me go ahead and screen share. So this question, which Marcia mentioned, the topic of today, was really interesting to me. How does your religion adapt itself to reflect changing times? And I was curious, and maybe I can discover that after I speak in terms of how this question came about. And the questioner who posed this, I'm interested to know maybe where this was, you know, was this a result of just seeing a lot of the changes that are happening in society rapidly, especially to faith communities? Or was it just a question of curiosities? I was just really curious to know that. But it got me to thinking about, first and foremost, I think in order to understand Islam's position on this concept of changing or reforming or renewing faith, it's really important to understand how Islam defines itself or is defined by, of course, an our understanding by God. So Muslims believe that Islam is a perfect and complete system of life. Or in Arabic, we call this word Dean. It's not just a religion, which is, you know, of course, a faith belief system, but it can also be, you know, just simply someone's understanding. But this Islam, according to our understanding, is much more than that. It actually affects every aspect of one's life. And in the Quran, we have a verse here from chapter five, verse three, where God actually tells us that he has completed your, I have completed your religion for you, perfected my blessings upon you, and I'm pleased with Islam as your religion. So we understand this to mean that Islam is timeless, that as a religion, it's perfect. And it doesn't need to necessarily change itself or adapt itself. But in terms of new emerging issues or things that arise as we evolve and as our societies grow into different directions, there is of course room for that. So I thought maybe first we could lay the foundation of what this system looks like. I'm sure many of you know the term Sharia, which in Arabic really just means a path that leads to water, water being a life source. And so the Sharia, which is Islamic law, encompasses five objectives. And so everything that Muslims do or don't do is actually understood to have the objective of preserving one or all five of these specific objectives. So first and foremost, the preservation of our faith. So everything, all of the rules that we have as Muslims are to preserve one's faith, preserve life, preserve one's intellect or mental well-being, preserve lineage and family, and then preserve wealth and property. So if you look at the entire body of Islamic law, you'll find that everything can be rooted back to one or five, one or all five of these, what we call maqasid or objectives. So that's the first thing I just wanted to explain to again lay a foundation of understanding what this complete system looks like. Next we have something that's very important in Islam, which comes to us from many of the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, who warned about innovation or introducing new things. And if you think logically, if something is perfect, then it would not need to be added to, right? Because it's complete. So this concept of innovation or bidah is specifically about introducing new concepts to the Sharia or the understanding of what the principles of the faith are, what the creed of the believer of the Muslim is. So in that respect, to add things just because there are things that are emerging that are not rooted in the faith or can't be explained through existing principles and rulings within the faith would be considered an innovation. And so there's a clear prohibition of this, of introducing new things. So we have these two specific quotes from the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, who said whoever introduces into this affair of ours, Islam, that which is not from it, and that's really a very important concept, which we'll get into, then it is rejected. And then beware of newly introduced matters for every newly introduced matter is an innovation. And every innovation is in this guidance. So the understanding here is that adding new things that are not within or rooted or sourced from within the faith itself would be actually changing, distorting the faith and therefore lead to misguidance. And then we have this verse from the Quran, chapter four verse 59, which says, if you disagree about anything, then refer it back to Allah the Messenger, which tells us those are our two primary sources. So in Islam, the scripture, the Quran and then the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, are considered the two primary sources for to derive legal rulings. And there are others as well, which we'll get to. But this is what how the Muslims should should arrive at legal rulings when new new ideas or new issues come up. It should be immediately sourced from the scriptures first, then the other which we'll get to. So now in terms of new emerging ideas, certainly within Islam, throughout history, obviously not everything that human beings experience has been consistent. There have been many new things that have emerged because our lifestyles have changed. And so with all of the nuance that comes from societal changes and other systems that are new, then yes, Islam seeks to address certain concepts. For example, financial transactions, as many may know, within the Islamic body of literature with regards to financial transactions, we have an entire, we have much to say about about how human beings should financially maintain their wealth and be responsible with their wealth. But obviously financial systems have changed. We now live in a completely different era of capitalism and banking and interest and many, many different systems of commerce that were not always in place. So with things like that, then the scholars have to have a means with which to address certain new ideas, new opportunities and still root those ideas within the faith tradition. So that process is referred to as HD hat, which is in English, you would call it interpretive autonomy. And then here are the three parts of that, what that looks like. It's an exercise and it's something that is the domain of people who are qualified to do this. So the scholars or the ones who are well read in the scripture in the Hadith in the traditions of the classical scholars who've really shaped Islamic law and jurisprudence, the scholars of modern times would be the ones who would have this responsibility of interpreting these new ideas. So as new concepts emerge in society, then we would defer to the experts of Islamic law and who had a qualifications to be able to derive rulings so that the regular lay Muslim would be able to still fulfill their religious obligations without abandoning principles or as we mentioned introducing new ideas which would jeopardize their faith. And so the sources that these scholars would use would be in order to make these legal judgments are the Quran first and foremost, the prophetic tradition, the Ijma or consensus of the great scholars of Islam. So in normative Sunni Islam, we have four schools of jurisprudence, which are founded by four independent scholars. Many of them were actually students of each other and they looking at examining the evidence that was before them in the scriptures and from the previous scholars whose works that they studied, they derived their own opinions on certain matters. And so a person in modern times would have to look through all of these sources and then use their own reasoning, which is an Arabic aqan, to derive a legal ruling for contemporary times. But it would be the responsibility of the scholars to do this. So the average Muslim would not make these independent rulings just to accommodate certain things that they may want in a contemporary sense. They would actually have to defer to the scholar to be able to look for those rulings. So that process is called Ijtihad. And then this concept of reform or adaptation of religion is sometimes is understood, I think, again, depending on who you asked as introducing new things or taking away certain ideas. And when we think of reforming something, that's kind of how we understand it. But we do have a concept that's different, but it does, I think, explain the acceptable way of addressing new emerging things, which is called tajdid. So this would be renewal. And this is how Muslims believe that we can adapt to things, which is really bringing people back to the source of their faith to revive Islam, not to change it or to adapt it, but rather to teach it. Because when we see, for example, many of the problems in the Muslim world, a lot of the social or political or economic problems, that Muslims who know their faith would not, we would not think that those things are arising because people are, because Islam is somehow static and hasn't come up with the times in order to accommodate all these changes, but rather that people have abandoned faith principles. And therefore, the certain problems have risen because they aren't actually implementing their faith. So tajdid is the idea that we need to actually revive the faith and bring these concepts back to life because people have parted from them. So again, whether it's political or economic systems or social systems, if they're not in line with the faith, then the belief is that there will be problems that emerge. So reform, again, according to Islam would be considered or is the idea that Islam is somehow it's not relevant to the time that it's in. Therefore, aspects of it need to be changed in order to accommodate those new emerging ideas, which normative Islam would reject that idea. Because again, as was mentioned at the beginning, Islam is considered a perfect complete system. And so there is no need to reform the faith itself. However, we can certainly come to legal rulings that may have that they're there that are unprecedented by the process, which was explained going through the scriptures, making sure that there is a real effort. And that word HD had, which I mentioned before, it comes from the root word of jahad, which is to struggle to to to really exert one's effort. So the much the head or the scholar who is supposed to derive those rulings, he or she is supposed to really look at the the sources with great detail and really try to comb through the body of literature and works and everything that has been preserved in order to derive rulings. And at the end of the day, they are allowed, you know, because they have that position, even if they make a mistake, it's not considered against the scholar, if you know, they aired in their ruling because they were sincere in their efforts. So it's a very lofty position to have the the noble position of HD had. And that's why it's not for everyone. But again, just to kind of bring it full circle, the concept of reform is is not something that Muslims believe Islam is in need of, as it is considered a perfect system. But certainly, when things problems arise in societies or in communities, then we would look to the process of Tajid, which is to just renew or, excuse me, revive, revive the faith and renew people's understanding of it, not necessarily renew or reform the faith itself. So I hope that was clear. And I think that's yeah, that's the final slide. So I can stop here. And if there are any questions, I'm happy to to take those questions. Thank you. Thank you. That's all right. So if you have any questions, I think, did I see Ruth, did you have a question? Okay. So Ruth, you're going to need to unmute yourself, please. Okay, I was interested in your item of lineage. And I was curious about how you interpret that. Thank you. No, that's a wonderful question. So lineage in terms of preservation of the family, the family bonds are very important in Islam. And the Muslim, we have, you know, a list of, for example, you know, sins that that are considered enormities. And among the enormities that God would be displeased with is cutting off ties, for example, of one's family, severing ties, is considered an enormity. So really to try to preserve family systems between parents and children, we have the concept of filial piety, which the child is, you know, is considered responsible to take care of their parents. There's a verse on the Quran that Quran that describes that, you know, just as the parents took care of you when you were an infant and not able to you were dependent, it is your turn as they age to take care of them. So within that, you know, that point of preservation of family, all of that is encompassed, right the way, you know, and obviously the preservation of, you know, marriage between a man and a woman, this is definitely central to Islam, preserving families and making sure that children, children's rights are met and parents rights are met and then extended family members also have rights. So there's there's a lot of different things that would fall under that as well. Thank you. You're welcome. Great. Alan, have to unmute yourself, Alan, and mute yourself. Thank you for that. That was very interesting. I'm wondering how often are these changes made and how are they recorded? Is there a like an ongoing recording of changes that occur to Islam? If you say you start with a perfect religion, then how do you record and document those changes that occur during times? Sure. And how do you reconcile the at one time societies norms kind of change from, you know, what it was earlier? Sure, that's an excellent question. Thank you so much. So part of the traditional way that Islam has been preserved for so many centuries is what we have, we have a concept called the Isnad tradition, which is that a person who endeavors to become a scholar or fall, you know, becomes a student of knowledge and then joins the path of scholarship would actually be would have to receive licenses from previously trained and also recognized scholars so that they become part of this chain of transmission that goes all the way back to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, because we believe that the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, similar to how Jesus had disciples, he had companions. And then his companions were responsible after he moved on and transitioned and passed away to spread Islam to the generation that they lived among and then their, you know, generations after them continued that, that tradition of teaching and preserving the faith tradition. So all the way up until today, we have many of our scholars who are recognized as being again part of this chain within the system and they have licenses similar to what you would call, you know, in the academic world, diplomas of, you know, completion of certain areas of study. And once they receive, once they are accepted as being of that level to be able to do each he had, which is to be able to come up with these rulings, then certainly those would be recorded and preserved because these scholars, they are known and they usually typically have their own, you know, they preserve their own teachings and rulings within, you know, by way of documentation, by way of, you know, writing books, but certainly the scholars within our tradition that are recognized are known globally because and now even more so because we are so interconnected. In previous times, maybe people would actually travel far and wide and so they would know who, who, you know, they're like credentials wise, they would know, you know, who's who they're studying with or who they studied with. Those would all be very transparent. It's all very known because in order to even get into certain systems or study with certain scholars, you would have to come with some sort of reference or credential. So it's a very preserved system. But yes, these things are documented and they are known in the scholarly class. And they're collected like a book form or now perhaps electronic form. Yes. There are they available to one to understand and read and interpret? Yes, absolutely. So depending on regionally where you are, you might have scholars that are localized, but those things you could certainly acquire from, you know, from different scholars locally, but then in terms of globally recognized scholars, yes, their teachings are also preserved and documented. And again, because of the modern era with technology, we can absolutely source them. But typically scholars preserve their teachings in books and literature and make those available. Okay, thank you. You're very welcome. Thank you for the question. Okay, let's go to Paul. Paul, please unmute. Okay. My question is more rather than about the system, it's about the individual. Maybe it's not necessarily appropriate, but in Christianity, we have a soul. Is there a soul and does a person following the Quran and following the teachings is one of the goals to have this soul achieve certain attainments or go to heaven or paradise, what you guys talk about. But so could you describe your version of the soul and Islam? Absolutely. It's we absolutely have a concept of the soul. And we believe that it is the goal, it should be the goal of every Muslim to work on purification of the soul. So we have an entire science in Islam called Tasquiat and Nefs, which is literally called the purification of the soul. And this is where an individual would really examine their spiritual diseases. We all have spiritual diseases from, you know, being from envy, for example, or quick being quick to anger from being miserly. There's certain there's about 27 or so diseases of the heart that have been identified by our great scholars of the past. And so our tradition aims to teach all Muslims that they should be actively every single day working on really becoming the best versions of themselves. So, you know, character development characters are very important part of our faith. The Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him actually had a quote that where he says I was sent to teach the perfection of faith, excuse me, the perfection of character. So, you know, the virtuous, you know, qualities are certainly important for Muslims to acquire patience, steadfastness, courage, justice, all of the four cardinal virtues that we find in Christianity are very shared in Islam as well. And so this would be an active practice that every Muslim should have, but certainly absolutely those who are in the scholarly position. And so that's why there's so much emphasis, for example, on self mastery. And what does self mastery look like? Well, you know, we, as you may know, Ramadan is coming around the corner. And so Ramadan is part of, you know, mastering the lower self, you know, those base desires that can overwhelm the person, lust, food, all of these things that we should be able to manage, which can certainly derail or obstruct our spiritual endeavors is something that fasting, which is something that is not obviously inherent to just Islam, many of the previous traditions and other faiths have also a practice of fasting. So fasting is one way we do that. We're just watching ourselves, you know, not using, for example, Tao language. We believe that every part of the body was created for the worship of God, and we will be held accountable if we use the blessings that God gave us in the wrong way, in sinful ways. So we lower our gaze when we, you know, see things that are inappropriate, we're supposed to redirect our gaze listening to things that are inappropriate. We don't take in certain, we don't consume certain foods or drink because we believe that they have a negative and harmful effect on the body. So that's to protect the body. So there's many things that we do as a regular practice in order to purify and preserve the soul, because at the end of the day, that is the point of salvation, whether or not your soul was purified through practice and worship. So yes, we absolutely have a very shared idea with the Christian, and I believe even the Jewish faith around the soul. Thank you. Just one more follow-up to that, you know. Okay, and then we need to go on to our next speaker. Okay, just one second then. Maybe it's a yes or I'm sure it'll be a yes answer, at least I'm sure. I'm pretty certain. The responsibility for the development of one soul, when you're young, it maybe isn't your necessary, your responsibility, but when you're very young, you have your family, and you have a madrasa or a school. So where do you place the importance of those, they equally as important as each other, the madrasa and the family and raising a child to have a good soul? It's an excellent question. And it's on the responsibility of raising the child up until the age of discernment, squarely falls on the family. So the mother and father, that is a trust to have children to be blessed with children is considered a trust from God. And so it is their responsibility to make sure that they are raising the child with the proper understanding of faith and exposing them to teachers. So if they send them to madrasa or not, but that responsibility would be on them up until discernment, which is at the age of puberty. So in our faith, in the Muslim faith, we believe that children up until the age of puberty are able to, at that point, they're able to decide and know, you know, God and right from wrong. And interestingly enough, I remember reading a research a while ago, that most of the religious conversions that happen to people usually happen around 1213, right at the onset of puberty. So there is something to be said about that age of awakening out of childhood, suddenly into the reality of the world that a child is in that causes them to have these existential questions and seek understanding. So at that point, then they are responsible for themselves. And the parents are certainly there to guide and continue to help them to navigate, but they are considered accountable at that point. Thank you very much. Thank you. Let's everyone please give Hossai a round of applause. Thank you. Thank you so much. And now, welcome Pastor Steve Wild from Presbyterian Church, Livermore. Pastor Steve. Well, thank you. It is an honor to follow Hossai and to just be able to learn and appreciate so much the thoughtfulness with which you put into that presentation. I probably will be embarrassed with how much more thorough and thoughtful yours is than my remarks, but it really is a blessing to be able to speak on the same Zoom call. And in so many ways, I think it's a great combination, Marcia, you and others have provided such great leadership to Interfaith Interconnect for so long. And this will be a great similarity, but also it's one of the beauties of this group, I think are the conversations where we can see distinctions amongst different faith traditions and really value and honor those distinctions and some similarities. And so happy to talk a bit about that. But Marcia, for you and for Alan, I really do appreciate and I love that Ruth is on here. And I actually love that Jim Hodges, I can't see your video running, but I love the hiking in the mountains picture just because our church, First Presbyterian Church here in Livermore just has such an appreciation for this discussion and for the ways in which people want to respect and honor one another. And so I just feel very humbled and very blessed to just have my own comments and thoughts on this. It is a contrast, I think, in one sense, because, Josiah, as you talk about sort of the foundational principle of a perfected religion, we're part of the Protestant faith where in many respects, we emerged out of this theological conviction of reform and reformation. And so I'll just say a little bit, I probably will be much more interested into the interaction and the conversation questions that you all might have, but the Presbyterian Church, of which we are a part, does emerge from Protestantism and I don't need to bore everybody with sort of European history in the 16th century, but just that idea that Martin Luther initiated of a hope that the Catholic Church would reform, would change some of its practices and the ways in which they believed that it had strayed from not just a faithfulness to what Scripture said and who God was, but also then a disconnect from the culture and from the world that was inhibiting the gospel being able to be shared, to be able to be understood, but also to be able to be embraced. So in so many ways, our theological foundation is kind of rooted in that reformed and always reforming, being open to the ongoing transformation and the renewing of God's spirit at work in and amongst God's people. And maybe, Josiah, there might be some similarities in that we may say what we've done in our reforming is discovering what's always been true about God. And so maybe that's where there's a place of commonality, is that maybe we would articulate a perfection of God and that religion is fundamentally imperfect because it is human being's best attempt to articulate and formally assemble in a way that is able to understand the perfect God. And so reformed and always reforming though, an ongoing openness to change and transformation really is at the heart of who we are as a denomination, at the heart of who we are as a church. We really believe that the spirit is still at work and that part of what the spirit does in the midst of community is it highlights, again, what's always been true about God. And at times what that means is that we take new approaches. We come to different understandings. We come to perhaps a corrected theological conviction and some of the easier ones to highlight would be historically maybe having a more traditional view of leadership in the church as it relates to the role of women and the LGBTQIA plus community. And then over the last several decades, sort of collectively believing that God's spirit actually was working and correcting our application of what is true about who God is. And so we really, we open ourselves to that. And a part of how we do that is sort of embracing the priesthood of all believers, right? The idea that I'm a pastor and I've been to more school than I ever thought I would go to. But I don't have any unique access to God that you all don't. And therefore, I'm just humbled to be a part of these conversations because whether it's a Presbyterian perspective or a Protestant perspective or an Episcopalian or a Muslim or a Jewish or a skeptic or a scientific, I mean, we just really in humility, want to be open to how that spirit of God speaks truth into our lives and into our church. And so that might be a little bit of a foundational introduction to how we approach this idea of adapting to changes in our world is we try to take a posture of humility that then collectively discerns what is true. Which is to say, sort of organizationally, from a polity structurally and theologically, we believe that the truth of God is understood within the context of community. So that I have a voice within that community, but that voice is always held within the larger communal context of how we collectively believe God is at work. And so that process of reform is one that not one person dictates, but that we collectively discover. That creates beautiful opportunities and wonderful challenges as we try to then share life together, realizing that faithful people oftentimes have different perspectives and different experiences and come to different conclusions. And so we really then theologically see that adaptation and change is held within the context of covenant, that sort of sacred commitment that we make with and for one another, that's rooted in our being loved by God and our commitment to God that then calls us to maintain relationship with one another. I mean, it doesn't always end up that way. And we've had churches that have left our denomination and obviously Presbyterianism is different than Methodist, which is different. So there's obviously different flavors of that. But at our best, we want to maintain that covenant relationship rooted in our commitment to God, but also then calling us to stay connected to one another. And so then I think what that means programmatically or pragmatically might be the distinction between technical and adaptive challenges and technical and adaptive change. And without going too deep into the weeds, technical challenges are more challenges that we have the skill set, the knowledge, the experience, the tools and the resources to address a particular challenge. And that might be the brakes of your car go out. It seems like it's a technical problem. Your brakes are out. We have a technical solution. You take it to a mechanic who has new brake pads and has the tools needed to replace those brakes. And so a technical problem is addressed with a technical solution. We in the church recognize though that oftentimes the church is faced with adaptive problems. And adaptive problems are problems for which we don't have the skill set or the experience or the knowledge or perhaps even the imagination or resources to address those challenges. And so a new imagination needs to be formed to address adaptive challenges. An adaptive challenge maybe you have a 16 year old driver in your family who's learning how to drive doesn't quite know how to do that. And as a result is grinding on the brakes the entire time and wears them out disproportionately fast. You can continue to take that car and those brakes to a mechanic and they'll replace the brakes, but you're applying a technical solution to an adaptive problem. And so we in the church are trying to depend upon God's Holy Spirit that works in our midst to have the wisdom to discern where there are technical challenges and where there are adaptive challenges. And again in humility how do we then surrender to God's Spirit at work among us to discover an adaptive way of thinking and being God's people. And in those adaptive moments oftentimes change is what's realized. And again within our context not to speak negatively upon any other tradition in our context that's led to decisions like women being able to be pastors and to hold formal roles of leadership. And it's led to other theological convictions that aren't as traditional. And so that's where we try to find that balance between how we formally as a religion organize ourselves in a way that helps us develop a faith that is able to embody the sort of perfection of God. Again I think I think recognizing that that perfection is not present in the the religious structures that human beings create. And since most people look like they're wonderfully tired and maybe even ready for a nap. I mean I think I'll pause and just sort of if that makes sense or questions or comments that people want to have to sort of interact with anything I'm saying. Jim are you raising your hand? No Carlton are you raising your hand? Yes okay please unmute. There we go can you hear me? Yes. Okay thank you. And Steve I know that must have been referring to me I'm sorry I had my head in my hands but I was not falling asleep. I was trying to concentrate and to process what you were saying. And I came in a little bit late so apologies to everyone if my question has been already addressed. It seems to me that there while there is certainly variation amongst the different religions in terms of how and to what extent they change to address cultural issues. But it also seems true that they all seem to be bound or bounds not the right word. They all seem to have a core limitation that prevents them from adapting when those adaptations run contrary to their beliefs of their denomination. Is that a fair statement so far Steve am I okay with that? Yeah I think that would be a I mean I probably would say not of a denomination. I think you're saying you're articulating well the human condition. Well and I guess my question then is does religion in all its forms really serve humanity well then? If there is this core of not being able to change in certain areas and they're going to differ of course by group shouldn't wouldn't we be better off if we could adopt our finding system that would allow more flexibility of change if we can simply demonstrate that that change is beneficial to humanity in general and not have to worry about whether it runs a foul of doctrinal statements found in the various religions? That's a provocative question Carlton I appreciate it. I think that I probably would suggest that you know the I probably don't subscribe to the premise and by that I don't mean to be disrespectful. I just mean that I think that there are plenty of expressions of religion that are quite adaptive. I believe the the person who spoke last month from the Unitarian Universalist Church would would would articulate a structure within the Unitarian Universalism that that is much more adaptive than certain religious structure. So I don't disagree that there aren't examples of religious institutions that are adverse to change but quite frankly I don't I don't think that's any different than up at the lab in some of the science there are those within the scientific community that that are more rigid in their scientific approach and there are some in the scientific community that are much more progressive and open in their approach to science and their pursuit of the mysteries of the universe and we have a Bible study on Tuesday mornings where many of those different approaches interact with one another and it's delightful. So I just think that that I really agree with the premise that that human beings I don't think it's unique to religion I think we see this in governments. Government can be profoundly helpful and necessary in advancing the causes of humanity and justice and equality and government can be profoundly cumbersome in responding to the needs of humanity and equality and justice and and so in some ways of course we need we need humanity to be more to be more willing to be open to what we might say is capital true and I would just agree with you that religion oftentimes sadly is not that institution. I'm a part of a traditional Protestant mainline denominational church. Our reputation is not one of great agility and embracing change. That doesn't mean that that we aren't trying and seeking to be open to that. So I guess what I would say is I would say amen. I pray for her people to be more receptive to what is truly in humility beneficial and I think that that's probably where I would start is that whether it's government or science or religion or or education humility seems to me to be the primary ingredient to people being able to really look beyond themselves and not be so bound to their own ego and idea of how things need to be. Humility sort of opens us to a different possibility and that's where whatever that practice is I think would benefit from that and I don't know if that that might just be a long rambling response to a really provocative question that you're asking but I appreciate your interest even yeah I it is it's a question that you know could easily you know side rail the great thing we got going here I don't want to do that but I but I just want to I did want to just at least ask it once and just see what the response was yeah who else has a question see a hand I I'll go ahead and ask a question if that's all right then um Steve you mentioned about how some um like a group within the Presbyterian church various times is broken away it sounds like a maybe formed another denomination um I was just curious I might not quite have this right but it seems like there's a Presbyterian church USA and a Presbyterian church in America is that right yeah I think there's actually so Presbyterian is a word that doesn't have any denominational uniqueness it's actually a way of governing so there's actually I think 14 different Presbyterian denominations um which which has been humorous because many of our people will go to a church that has the word Presbyterian on it but find out that it's very different than our church with respect to how it views leadership or other other things so yeah we are a part of the Presbyterian church USA um there's the Presbyterian church of America there's the Orthodox Presbyterian church there's Cumberland Presbyterian church there's the evangelical covenant order there's the covenant Presbyterian church there's a number of denominations that have the word Presbyterian in it Presbyterian is a word that denotes a proportional representation right it's a Presbyter is one who individually is called to leadership to act and speak on behalf of a larger group of people the easiest thing for me to say is our government was formed by people that were fleeing religious persecution many of whom came from a Protestant upbringing the church of Scotland where proportional representation Presbyterianism was a part of how they organized and governed their church and that same principle is it's similar it's not the same but it's very similar to what we see in our in our form of government where individuals are elected to go and speak on behalf of groups of people within our church we have elders that aren't supposed to make decisions based on what they want but they're supposed to be reflective of of a larger group of people within the church and then churches are a part of Presbyteries and we collectively have conversations and then Presbyteries are a part of our national denomination and so our national denomination makes decisions that then impact local churches that's that connectional system that we strive to be a part of and so change so and again adaptation goes through that process that's that communal part of the process that I could stand up in our pulpit this Sunday and say whatever I wanted and how the church needs to change within our structure our session which is our our board either would or wouldn't agree with that and if I say something that we need to do that's not in alignment with what our Presbyterian with what our denomination says there's this larger connectional system that we're that we're in covenant relationship with that we we choose to align ourselves with and you can imagine again there's regional differences in California than in Jackson Mississippi and yet Presbyterian churches in Livermore and Jackson Mississippi choose to abide by the same understandings of who God is and how God's at work hey thank you that was very interesting and it looks like we would have time for one more question if anyone else would like to ask Pastor Steve a question yes anyone I think I just had a it's going to be interesting because there's going to be looks like there's much more sort of ethical questions coming up as science develops right and then we can continue to probably impact our genetics and have medical changes etc it's interesting to me to see how different religions address this particular topic and all these other different ones and how within religions also it seems like there's multiplicity of opinions right right yeah and I don't know if that it's a great statement I don't know if that's a question that well I know I think I'm just observing and I'm just trying to get your take on how is it to resolve it within your well I think that's the tension and again within our tradition it's the tension that we choose to live within right we we sort of you know I'm speaking a lot about the way in which the spirit speaks in community and so there's a communal aspect to what we think and what we conclude about any number of things you know Christian ethics or medical ethics there's that communal aspect but but but sort of beneath it all is this acknowledgement that God alone is the Lord of the conscience and and that while I may or may not Alan's a part of our church so I've known Alan for 14 years and know him well so I say this to a friend I may or may not agree with Alan on everything that's not really the point God alone is the one who will will judge me will judge Alan will judge all of us and and in humility my role is not to judge you on behalf of God it's to it's to in it's in humility to be open to what God's desire is as I understand it for me in my life and the decisions that we make and so it's always that tension of individuals that may have experiences or perspectives that aren't always shared that choose to be a part of a community where it's not just about their individual preferences and perspectives and and again that's why I think and I think Carlton may have jumped off which dog gone and I hear I'm trying to bring him back into the conversation but it's part of the challenge of religion is that we've too often times siloed ourselves into a like-mindedness that that isn't about inviting perspectives outside of our own preferences or biases or whatever that is and so we create these sort of echo chambers that then make these universal declarations about medical ethics or euthanasia or any number of things and they're well intended and oftentimes they're faithfully well intended so I don't mean to demonize that at all I don't judge that as though it's a bad thing I think it's people that are seeking to be loyal and adhere to what they believe to be true we just believe that that truth is best understood within a diversity of thought and opinion that's found in community and is reflected in the diversity that you just look on this screen that you see a diversity of thought a diversity of life experience a diversity of age a diversity of ethnicity I mean all of that diversity we see as a valuable thing that creates tension right and for us that's that's wonderfully modeled in the Trinity and for us that's wonderfully reflected in that first group of disciples that they themselves were oftentimes not in agreement and yet we're a covenant community thank you I think the one the most important statement you made was about humility and I know in our tradition the Muslim tradition even scholars end their particular edicts with and Allah knows best yes thank you thank you for this hosting this program and thank you for allowing me to attend well that's a great thank you for sharing with me how wise people in your tradition and I should end most sermons with and God knows best thank you so much thank you for coming today maybe we'll see you again um let us all give pastor steve a round of applause yes okay thank you so much we did wonderfully with our time it's 559 and I think we had a chance for speakers to give excellent presentations and for people to ask questions and have their questions answered so that worked out very well