 Hei, rydych yneth. Fy yw'r podcast. Fi'n gweld sut yn gweithio'r chacol, yw'r gweithio'r gweithio'n gweithio, ac maen nhw'n gwybod am yng Nghymru. Ymdillwyddiant sy'n gynghwylol, ymdillaf, ysgol, yng nghymredig, ymdillogau genneraethau, yw'n gwneud ymdillogau. O'r cyfrannu'r ysgol nhw'n gweithio'n gweithio'n 16-80. Mae'n cefnogaeth o'ch beian ac yn ymddangos i fynd i'r Ysgrifennu Llywodraeth, a'r gyfannol i'r fnwys gydw lwyddo, hen rwy'n meddwl i'r gwahau arniogio. Hynny, yw Lewis. Fawr gweithio'n y cerdd gyda fain, felly eu ffordd bwyd. Rhaid i chi dweud ar rhaid i mi. Rydyn ni'n ei dweud digwyddiaeth hefyd, ac rhaid i chi dweud arall ac yn ein holl. Ie, ond yn fawr, ond oes yn edrych yn ei fawr, ond yn ysgrifennu, ymwneud, allwn ffôr, rhai o'r tyfan? Yn ymwneud, ac yn ymwneud, yn ymwneud, wrth gwrs, oherwydd mae'n gweithio'n gweithio eich mwyaf, ac nhw'n dweud i'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio i'r fawr i'n gweithio ar y cyfrifiadau. Rwy'n mynd i'n gallu yn оlygu'r bydd gwaith a'r peth fel y gallwn gwahanol. Rydym yn gwybod hefyd yn y cweithio fel y bydd i'r pethau, ac ydym ni'n meddwl i'r wychol fwy pethau. A'r mynd i'w dda i'r bydd gynnig hefyd yn y penwysig illog oherwydd wrth mae gyda'i yma yma yn maith i'r pethau a'r rhain. Rwy'n gallu gyda'i. Mae gyd handle gwaith i'r derivatives. Rwy'n i'n meddwl i'r Llywodraedd oeddanol, rywb bod yna ein bobl ac yn ysgriffedd ei fod, sy'n teimlo i'i ceisio at y sefydliadau o'r llei, a yn adeilad, pleidio i London i wedi'i caelopardwyr mwy o'r ymweld, felly mae'n rhan o'r ymgymellau yn y cyf knight yr ond. A oeddwn i'n fyddai i'r Lloedd ac yr ond o'r market yma o'n 30 ac sy'n mynd i'r rhan o'r ymgymru o'r hyn. Rydyn ni'n ei fyddai, ac yn mynd i'r pam yn rhan o'r amlygu. for a French company. Most women lie about their age in a French company. Why do they do that? I have no idea, but they just do. So, and I think it's, it is all, it's so many things are linked together, but so I'm, I'm boldly telling people these days that I'm 53 and thank you. But it is an important thing to say because it's made me consider a lot of things and how I feel about my future career because I think that's often tied up with perception and how you look and I think there is a, there is a gap between the way companies are structured around a traditional model that I would describe as traditional model which we can talk about and how the reality of things in the world we live in today I think there's a big disconnect between the two and I find myself at that point now. What's the disconnect? I think there's, there's this, we run companies and we have office hours and we have structures that are very much predicated on this nine to five working environment which came out of all sorts of reasons back in the early sort of Henry Ford and the factories and having workforces that needed to be in shift patterns and so on. So, and we've sort of stuck to that model for years and years and I think that's kind of linked to the industrial revolution. We're in a completely different industrial, we're in the middle of a kind of like a digital industrial revolution and we don't need to operate on that model anymore and I think we need to recognise that and start to operate differently because we're trying to shoehorn a dated structure often into, we're trying to shoehorn people into a dated structure when they can work differently and the way they live their lives and the influences they have are driven by other external forces and we're not linking up with that in a business perspective. That's true, that's true. It's that traditional model of, so when you sort of went to school, you worked, you retired and you had it in a framework of nine to five, generally speaking. We're going to have to do some generalisations here. So please excuse that but that's kind of, but that's broken. You know, we've got young people. Why do you think it's broken? Because I think there have been many drivers in the last few years, if you think about maybe from 20 2008 onwards when we had the sort of financial meltdown and then people's, and that changed in terms of people's financial ability to retire when they wanted to retire in the mid fifties and sixties and then also I think you have to layer on to that the fact that we are very different people now at 53 or 50 or whatever it might be or 60 than we were 50 or 60 years ago. I mean my grandparents or my grandmother or father at 53 were very different animals than I am. So we're fitter, we have a different intellectual view about how we approach the world and I think we don't always, I think we need to play catch up from a business perspective in how we utilise those drivers because I certainly feel that I think it's a combination of things. I felt maybe incorrectly that perhaps at this age I felt I was being sidelined because I think it's a conversation around talent as well and I still my view myself as a talented person. A sidelined in the company you're working in? Yes, yes. Maybe incorrectly and it's a wonderful company, I'm going to say that it is a wonderful company but I was feeling like I had, I kind of plateaued out and I'm still ambitious and I think when we talk about talent and we have companies focusing on talent they tend to focus on young talent. Just by nature, I'm very willing to be challenged on that by the way but I think that's something that people do when they talk about talent they talk about young talent. But actually you have talent right across your organisation and if we look at I think since 2014 we've now got five generations in the workplace. 16 to 80 years old or something. So there's a traditionalist? I'm going to do this now because I'm going to throw a bit of practical stuff in here. So the traditionalists were born before 1946. You've got baby boomers of 46 to 64. You've got Generation X which is 65 to 76. Gen Y which is 1977 to 97 and Generation Z God love them born after 1997. After like I'm not a generation. So there's now actually, so I am a Generation X. I thought I was a baby boomer but I've not. I've just scraped into Generation X. So I'm feeling quite happy about that. So you would be a Gen X as well? Yeah, I was born in 1981. No, you're a Generation Y. Oh my gosh, Lewis, you're really young. Thank you, thank you. The interesting thing is those labels. You end up thinking, do I demonstrate those? I don't think I demonstrate personally the characteristics of somebody born in 1965 which is when Generation X is categorised from. But I feel like now that what I'm looking for in my career going forward and I view myself as a talented person in many respects and again willing to be challenged on that. But what I want from a career now is what a lot I think of the Gen Y and the Generation Z may be looking for in that agility and flexibility around how they work. So I'm looking for an age appropriate career going forward. I could be working for another 20 years. Well there's no retirement age. There's no retirement age. And we've got to get over talking about, I know it's one of those protected characteristics now in age. It's not something that you can discriminate over. So I think we've still got to have conversations around it. And I could be working for another 20 years potentially. Maybe because I want to, maybe because I have to. Probably a combination of both if I'm honest. And so I am not going to spend the next 20 years not utilising my experience. But I want to do it now in a way and I think if you read the literature around this it's something that comes out. As you get older and you have more experience you want to be able to use your experience and your skillsets for a company in a sort of more flexible, more agile way. Not necessarily being the 9-5 aspect. I don't necessarily really have had a 9-5 job for a long time. But I want my value to be, when I'm there I want to be adding value. But I now want and recognise that it's also important to have a good work-life balance. But it shouldn't mean the fact that I want to work a bit differently. That I'm not any more serious about my career than I was 20 years ago. But I think there's a perception around age. Age no longer means seniority in companies is no longer linked to age. It's more meritocratic I think. And so you've got that sort of management hurdle to think about as to how you actually handle that. And not sideline your talent. If it's older talent, I think you need to start to encompass... There's lots of ways I think that companies can utilise talent and young talent together. I read an interesting stat a while ago, which was in the independent at the end of 2017. Which said three quarters of 25 to 34 year olds can sit themselves discriminated against for being too young. And over half of over 55s say they have been discriminated against unfavourably. So you get this discrimination about age at both ends of the scale. You feel like you're discriminated at both ends. I certainly have colleagues within that 25 to 34 age group who go for roles and then be told they're not older. You often get feedback from clients they're not quite experienced enough or they're over qualified for the role. What you really want is can someone do the job? It doesn't matter whether they've done something bigger or could they still... I mean I think for being too young let's say people are very scared to give them the current economic environment to give someone a chance for the younger people. For the older people who just want to do this particular job they've applied for then the employer gets scared if they've done something bigger and you often get that feedback. That's interesting. But it's a question of understanding what people want from what they're being asked to do. I think companies have this vision in mind of what everybody should look like. Yes. And B. I'd like to start to challenge that a bit because I certainly want to work in a way going forward on how I think younger colleagues or the younger generations coming into the workforce want to work as well. I really think this nine to five thing is a broken concept. I think there are roles that you have to be around for. I accept that in our industry with underwriting and broken. There are busy times of year and renewal periods etc. So I get that you have to be around but I think we have to really move away from this construct and actually look at people's value. No, I agree. The other thing is also the way people work and mindset crosses age because you can get really young people with actually not such a forward-thinking innovative mindset and vice versa. I've been really interested in this growth mindset. This lady called Dr Cowell Duweck she coined the phrase for education teaching young people and it's the kind of idea that you can continue to learn, develop, improve etc. I think whatever age you have you have that mindset now. I think that's really interesting because I was asked to look at age as a driver for something else other than our conversation today and you know that one of the things I do is I'm very involved in a gender network and I started looking at age and I actually then I think age is a I've come to an idea and I'm starting to try and articulate it better that age is a huge driver across all of the other characteristics that perhaps we feel we fail at whether it's gender, whether it's LGBT issues whether it's class, educational diversity this age thing it's a commonality amongst us all. It doesn't matter if you're black or white straight gay, it doesn't matter age is something that we all cope with and I think things are happening to people in life these days, much later in life whether it's families you've got people caring for older relatives because they're living much longer and so when you look at this from a gender perspective male or female these are issues that affect all of us and I think if we tackle age things we then start to tackle some of the other related issues around that and I often wonder if we start to do age really well and how we manage that we might actually then just start to naturally tackle some of the other inequalities that we might face in the workplace because when you start to look at age and what you need, how you need to support somebody and then it becomes a question of supporting them whether they're looking after children it can be male or female or looking after elder relatives again the same thing you take it out of just that gender sort of framework for example and I think if you start to tackle age well and manage those drivers it just automatically will start to improve things in other areas I think it's a huge driver and I hadn't really considered it as so important before I'd always felt that there were and I've had Ben challenge me on this and I feel in the older as you get towards your 60s they feel discriminated against for being older and their value it's about how you feel valued by a company but you know I've always felt that women have always been viewed on how they look and what their age is and that sort of natural value in the workplace and that sort of well but then also maybe it's worse when they're younger because we have this mother equally it can work either way so I think we get I think age is a very visual thing do you think we're getting better now I don't know I'm not sure it's the answer I think it's one of those things I don't think people are really focusing I think there's a lot of talk around it and there's a lot of you can find lots of research on this I'm a big fan of the Harvard Business Review and they come up with some great articles around multi-generational issues but there was something I came across which was done by Barclays Business Banking and who were looking at how companies are being established and they were noting that the fastest growing age group of UK business owners in the last 10 years has been the over 65s and I think that's really interesting and they came up with some tips about how as mature entrepreneurs or older entrepreneurs which I hate that I hate made up words but older entrepreneurs but I think the list is relevant for everybody and it's sort of know your subject, know your business strategy get tech savvy have confidence in your abilities look after your well-being that's huge looking after your well-being is huge that's one of these layers around age that we have in the working environment because we're all living much longer we're all much fitter that's a whole like 10 podcast and mentally as well as our expectations are very different than they were but if you really get into your fitness and your health mentally it helps you so much no I'm a big fan of that and then I was I then started to look at I've been asked to talk to a group of younger people in the workplace and about personal branding I started to consider what that meant and I came across a list that Warren Buffett came up with oh right interesting who's what 90 something and still 90 something that was just incredible and one of the things he says is invest in yourself he reads books he challenges himself he takes courses he learns new things and investing yourself is a huge thing whether you're young or whether you're old and I think if you invest in yourself then you're automatically more able to take advantage of perhaps a new framework in a company you know the drivers that companies are looking for these days then I think you've become a more relevant asset for them I'm a big fan of that so I try and do those things and there is a certain level of frustration around how do we as companies recognise that companies or individuals I think it's both I think companies need to recognise that people don't stop when they're 50 that they're not just going to go down until they some people may want to it's about choice equality of opportunity and so that you need to harness your experience and then and in talking to younger colleagues they don't have softer skills that perhaps we have as the older generational workforce because we've had different drivers throughout our career wherever those things are quite technically based these days social media plays a big part in how you interact with groups and talking to people and how you behave at interviews and all those kind of softer skillsets are not quite so prevalent well now they need to be more and more but they need to be more and more and the older generation are fantastic mentors for the younger generation great and also vice versa and vice versa as well I absolutely agree with that the McKinsey the McKinsey Global Institute did a really interesting report in 2018 so it was on automation in the future of the workforce and they concluded that so the demand going forward is for technological social, emotional and high cognitive skills so those skills the demand for those skills will rise by 2030 and if you think about the insurance industry you've got AI which is going to play a massive part in risk marketing so I think wherever age you are if you're developing those skillsets then you're going to be working really nicely with your new colleague which will be a robot or whatever in theory adopting those technologies within our industry should in theory take away the drudgery of many aspects and allow people to be more creative and I think our industry is an incredibly creative industry really really anything anybody makes or builds or sends to somewhere or comes up with or from a medical perspective or drug related perspective or a new piece of kit or flying off to miles or wherever it might be we as an industry find a product to help them manage their risk in that regard and I think we're hugely innovative and so I think I don't necessarily think instructors of companies in our industry match that innovation and the kind of people they're engaging and then just because somebody has some grey hairs doesn't mean they're not they don't want to be part of that well they can add value or have the right mindset then I think they're going to be working until whenever they want I'm so not perfect but I will there is a sense of frustration with me sometimes when I have meetings or meet other people and that they they automatically assume that they don't need to be interested in a more social media technological AI world but you absolutely do it's here it doesn't matter you can look at it from a work perspective but you can also look at it from your social life perspective if you have grandchildren if you have friends whatever it could be that you need to have a way of interacting and understanding what's driving people and being able to take part in it I just hate it when people say I'm not doing that I do I love it I would never have half as much interaction with my son unless I did all this stuff I don't think we're on Instagram together so I'll add to you my grandma she's 96, she has an iPhone my mom's a silver surfer so I love that I think it's for me it's the mindset and if people have the right mindset I don't think it really matters what age and they'll start to do better but I think there's that sort of expectation that you get to a certain age you don't need to do certain things with some people and I just think that's rubbish so how would you then change the making more agile or using new technologies to enable people to do that I think one of the things for me is if we look at mentoring for example and new projects within a company I think there's quite often when you have a new product or a new idea and it's perhaps has a technological basis for it into your tech or whatever it might be there is a tendency to people and staff that with young people for a wonderful better phrase but you know what I mean with young people because I'm clearly so old with young people but actually within that I think within companies there's a mentoring scheme you need to have some kind of scheme where you have a project you need to look at that project and the team and decide that you're going to have some older people in there older people in there not because they can answer the tech questions but they might be able to say right we tried to do this 20 years ago but the technology wouldn't allow us to but when we were thinking about doing it these are our problems if you're telling me you can solve these problems then this is a great idea and I can tell you that you might be interested in from a business perspective within your modelling so you need to it's a bit like the question about what makes a good board these days it's about having a diverse group of people identifying what skills you need and then factor in the fact that it is good to have somebody there that says we did talk about this 15 years ago and this was an issue the more opinions the better decision making the better options I think we don't do that we often silo things so I would say that every company internally if you have a project or you have something an acquisition you're working on make sure that you're peopleing it populating it with people of all skill sets and those skill sets will involve people of different ages you find people high badly typically, they're high people like themselves and they don't think about the skill sets they're looking for and that's a big issue if they take a little bit of time and sit down and think about why they want a certain type of person and the different types of skills then you can start to address these issues so what happens though if they need someone working 8-10 hardcore I think that's something that you I think that's I don't know the answer to that I think it depends on what your objectives are and your timeframes are I think if people are part of a team and they have an objective terrain for I think everybody will pitch in but what I'm saying is if you have those people on those teams use them when you need to use them for their particular skill sets no it's great to do that it's a bit I think firms are going it's a slow I think it's a slow moving it's very slow moving because people still like someone's a full time employee managers are interesting to hear how you've experienced managing all these different ages but it's a tough one right it's like the working from home thing it's quite hard to manage you need to have the trust level I think it's the trust aspect is a huge driver in that and I think that's something that I think is changing slowly changing but that has that trust aspect has changed a bit I think I say that I'm thinking about it now it depends like if you've just hired someone and you don't know them then you want to see that you'd like to work with them get friends with them, connect and stuff see there's a lot of issues around it I think as we go forward and technology massively changes the organisational design structures and maybe we'll get to a scenario where yeah I mean we've done that here we have all us as a web based we have these phones on our laptops and our mobiles and everything we can work from the beach in Cape Town and that's one of my things I know people have a bit of a downer about social media and technology because it can be poorly managed and it can be a very sort of invidious in people's lives in terms of how destructive it can potentially be to people but if you think about it when you wake up in the morning I would rather wake up and deal with my emails you know every time you pick every time you pick an iPad up or your iPhone up or whatever it is you are potentially working and so deal with you can deal with the Monday next bit something coming but companies need to recognise that you are doing that stuff maybe in a different framework than they are expecting you to do it but it doesn't mean you don't do it and it's a trust thing and it's being bold isn't it I think about that I still go back for me going forward it's mindset it's continued to learn it's being resilient tech savvy building your brand I think this tech saviness is one thing that does irritate me about some of my friends they just seem to think I don't need to social media or tech tech why do I need to understand that do we say the majority of your friends aren't interested in learning or experimenting or trying I think there becomes all of them but I think in certain I've got friends who are they're just so not interested in any of this just not at all and yet you pick up the paper today and you find that we need to ditch half of the old NHS IT systems get rid of the fax machines they're still using and actually have an integrated IT answer to being able to ensure that our records are where they should be with who needs to see them and the access is there so that we get better health advice for example and that was in the paper today and I just you know and also in the paper today it was a really interesting article about how talking to people who are working longer people are 60 plus working in industry who are choosing to work because it's it's a social I think the social aspect of work is huge as well being you get from working oh it's great my mum works for us she comes in two days a week sometimes three she's worked with me since I started my business and I don't think she'll want me to say how old she is but she loves it and my dad he retired he was a risk manager and then about five months in he was like this is really boring and now he works for my cousin running his finance department and he's 70 it's great isn't it? because you know older people have a lot of knowledge that they can share the mentoring aspect but also for me I just keep going back to it but the mindset is so important because if you're open to learning stuff I mean it doesn't matter how old you are you're learning and that's another on Warren Buffett's little list he said be a lifelong learner be a lifelong learner somebody gave me a link the other day to something fascinating app called course era I've done a few courses on I've started doing that it's outstandingly good you've got the Wharton Business School Duke Business School doing online courses for 50 quid they're amazing so I'm doing one with the moment in New York on an article and it's fantastic it's completely amazing they're called their MOOCs massive online learning communities because now with technology rather than educating 100 people in a youth group at Yale you've got the world so people who can't afford to relocate to America can just access it online I started this course and you started to pay 50 quid 48 quid, I think it was 48 quid and you have access to all of their database and information and learning and it works through this course it's supposed to take five weeks I think I'm already over halfway through it because it's just amazing the videos the chat forums and stuff wow so I picked something that I'm interested in that's not work related but I might even now consider doing a coding one how to code why not and I just think that accessibility to learning is there through stuff that some of my friends say well I don't need to use a laptop or I don't need to look at my phone I'm like oh fed and stuff it's awesome, even the podcast we're doing now if you think back even like 20 years ago the way to disseminate knowledge was the written word but a lot of people can't read in the world but with YouTube, with podcasting suddenly the spoken word is getting out a lot more this is a half an hour but you can get a really long format podcast where people are learning quite detailed subjects and then with the Coursera stuff we're actually just starting to use a digital learning platform as well so our guys are going to be and girls are going to be able to choose which courses and stuff they want to learn online, on the smartphone it's great and none of it is very difficult to learn how to use and I just think that's that's a bit about all of this development and the way the world has changed in terms of my working life from remembering the first Wang computers when they came in to back everything and how it's changed and I just think I think how fantastic that is I just think it's fantastic is it difficult to keep up with such change I don't personally find it but then perhaps I'm more curious than most people about it because that's perhaps part of me that has a natural affinity I've always liked tech stuff I'd love to have been an electrician actually if I could pick anything I'd be a really good electrician so it's kind of I think you have a maybe your brains are wired in the same way but I've always enjoyed that the new stuff but it's interesting that if we ask the friends of yours that don't want to learn all this stuff is it because it's like hard or an effort are they seeing it as a real effort I think it's like a brick wall and it's incomprehensible but they don't quite know perhaps how to make the effort to start to break that wall down it's interesting so we can do some work with people like that around how to use new technology and stuff then maybe we'll start to break down some of the age discrimination barriers and so I'm a big fan of all that and one thing I do have really enjoyed over the last however long I've been working is the fact that you get to work with people of different ages who come from different environments and have interesting, find out about them and have interesting things going on in their lives and I really value working with different age groups and if you take the time to work out what's interesting to people you can end up having a fantastic working environment without it being a toxic or challenging environment and I think that goes up and down the scale as well I think for me as an older person in the workforce having a younger manager doesn't bother me they still have to be good have you ever had one? they have to be good I don't mind that but what I also think is important is that they have an appreciation of what your talents you bring to the table so that's something that I think is part of this managing these generational things within the workplace a lot of interesting challenges to come there are actually but I'm here certainly here talking to you the fact that I might be working for another 20 years a huge amount of pleasure and also fills me with a massive amount quite horror as well actually because I want to I want to ensure that I add value and I'm not just sidelined I mean with the fact that you won't be the stuff you get involved in the way the conversation we've been having it's a very I'm speaking as a female clearly perspective I think age is a very awkward thing to cope with from your personal own viewpoint about age and then companies view of age man or female I think it's a very sensitive subject and we need to talk about it I think because we need to work out how we thrive in a different kind of business model that's not this full-time education full-time work, full-time retirement that's gone, that's just gone there's a good book called The Hundred Year Working Life mentioned this before probably end up having three different careers if you're born now you'll live to a hundred odd so it's a long gone of the days of education work retirement retirement now and I'm not sure what that means anymore I mean most people can't afford it anyway the average pension cut in the UK I can't afford to my view is I'm probably thought of retiring at 55 is A, never going to happen financially perspective and B I'm just so not ready for that and if you love what you do it's great it's good to do different things so it'd be interesting to see I think if companies can come up with some kind of mentoring scheme that's not quite as vanilla as mentoring schemes are with but actually include reverse mentoring in it and then when you have a project you look at who's on that project and actually make a decision to have a diversity of age within a project because just because something's tech doesn't mean have some different kind of input into a project development I think that's some of that siloing is something that would be good to break down definitely that's kind of why I'm calling mum age really and then it kind of leads into all sorts of other stuff isn't it well let's do another podcast on I think, oh there's so many really I think nothing in the working piece that we're in is not connected everything is connected whether it's LGBT, gender age, class, religion whatever it might be and I think one of the things that we don't talk about enough is educational diversity I think educational diversity is again something one of the big things I've seen in the marketplace which I love is how professional we've become as a marketplace where these days and I got involved earlier towards the end of last year in helping to put together an apprenticeship scheme for somebody using the government's apprenticeship scheme which if you can navigate your way through the absolute pain in the ass that it is to it's an incredible way to learn without coming out without being burdened by a loan without being that there are so many ways these days to start your career straight from school 16, 18 do you want to learn on the job and be supported that way get this apprenticeship scheme going it's an amazing scheme absolutely amazing it's so hard to get down it is but I still think in the insurance market if you want to get to a CEO position or board level nowadays it's quite well I will challenge you I know that Inge gets bail that the lawyers get cited so many times that Inge is a classic example of somebody that doesn't have a degree and that's to be hugely for me is as much as as anything else she's done I think that to me is an incredible achievement not because I think it proves that you can have value and be experienced you don't have to be the same as everybody else you're right I'm helping my cousin's kid who's just about to start up a sick and they feel at that age a real pressure to do really well at their go to university get a degree do their masters maybe so you end up I think there's a lot of pressure for young people to still do that if they want to follow a professional kind of career but I think that the apprenticeship schemes are great because you don't do it and I don't think companies take it mind but it was just something that I got involved in in terms of looking at IT getting an IT apprenticeship and it was just I was blown away by how you could come out with a degree in two years without any loan without and companies we have to over 250 employers have to contribute to it anyway so you've got these massive credits being built up and we're not utilising it I just think that way of thinking though and having educational diversity is massively important and where people's backgrounds are and what drives them it would be interesting hopefully people's views will change on people who don't have degrees because there's been a period of you know the other thing is we've been able to work with a few charities to try and get like recovering drug addicts, alcohol etc back into work and there's that stigma attached to people who have been through that experience and trying to get them back into work just a lot to do there is a lot to do but there's a lot of other conversations to be had around this but I do think education diversity is really an interesting one again that we don't speak about very often and the advantages of having a different kind of thing around your table it's really exciting let's do that on our next podcast alright then I really enjoyed it I love talking to you we will both do our best to break down the barriers of age discrimination hey yes please definitely hey folks thanks for listening don't forget to subscribe in all the usual places