 Hello, Katie. Thank you for joining me. How are you doing today? Good. Hi, Chris. Thanks so much for having me on. Yeah, I'm very glad that you're here. So you just came out with this new workbook to help people with suicidal thoughts. So before we dive into what's in this book, can you give the audience a little bit of who you are, your background and all that kind of good stuff? Sure. I grew up in South Florida and then I went to Florida State University as an undergraduate. And that really influenced my career and led up to this workbook because I worked with someone named Thomas Joyner, who has a leading theory of suicide and kind of working in his lab as an undergraduate really influenced the direction of my career. So I actually went back to graduate school at Florida State University with Thomas Joyner and continued to work with him. And while I was there, he was also writing books for the public about suicide and giving talks to the public and kind of that instilled the value of the importance of taking information from research and sharing it with the people who most need it. So after I graduated, I was a professor for 10 years at North Dakota State University. And a little over two years ago, I left actually to left academia to be a full time therapist. And just recently as of April, I'm now 50% providing therapy services and 50% doing research on eating disorders and suicidal behavior due to a grant that came in. So it's been a little bit back and forth, but mostly along all in mental health and suicide prevention has always been a priority. Yeah, no, that's that's that's awesome. And, and yeah, like eating disorders is something huge too and there's probably a lot of crossover and correlation like when it comes to suicide and suicidal thoughts like as I mentioned before, are talking, you know, like I'm a recovering addict and, you know, addiction, it was, you know, me slowly killing myself and all that. So what what inspired you to, you know, put this this workbook together, you know, you're probably the first author I've had on the podcast, talking about a workbook, you know, a lot of the books I read are just like, you know, the research and the data and all these other things. So why, why did you decide to go with a workbook what's inside here and how's it, how's it help. Well one of the big things in therapy that's important is working collaboratively to help people figure out what is causing the pain and mental health issues in their lives, and what personal things might help them to feel better and it's in therapy it's a very collaborative process where you're asking questions you're throwing out ideas you're getting feedback. And also the idea is that the person who's who the patient is supposed to feel like they have some tools and exercises they can try to build up those skills. And so when reading a book which that can be very helpful in its own ways for sure. It doesn't have that explicit inviting someone to really think about and participate and a workbook. I went I went with that also in discussions with my, with my acquisitions editor so it wasn't all me he he has a good sense of what there was a need for. He, it's also allowed me to have to guide people like you wouldn't therapy because I think that if someone is often if people just want to journal they're not really sure where to start especially if they're feeling really low. So the idea was to have a framework, but make sure that it's something with a lot of input and there are mental health workbooks out there but they're actually are almost none specifically for suicidal thoughts so it seemed like there was really a gap there for this particular issue. Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons why it stuck out to me and and I love the idea of a workbook. So something, you know, on my YouTube channel when I was like primarily mental health. I had started every video saying like we talk about the problem but focus on the solution right because one of the reasons I even got into like hey we need to talk more about mental health is because I, I heard a lot of like problem talking like okay now what do I do like what do I what do I do and with as many books as I read you know not only do I read about mental health and psychology and you know social issues. A lot of them like I close the book and I'm like, okay now what what do I what do I do. Right. So I love the workbook because you have like worksheets and so many things in there. So if you pick up this book, I can take action right like I could do something. You know some of them some mental health books have like some exercises and everything like that. But yeah, journaling was huge for me and like, like you mentioned, sometimes we don't have any. I don't know any direction like what am I so what am I supposed to write you know it's just like word vomit and while that could be very helpful. Sometimes focusing on something specific so like I came from a 12 step background right, a lot of writing, a lot of direction and stuff and I started getting so much clarity about underlying causes and everything and, and speaking of underlying causes that's kind of how the early chapters start out in the workbook and I would love love love to chat about that so starts out with you know understand your suicidal thoughts and uncovering the causes so. You know, not only do friends and family members not understand but those of us who struggle with it we don't understand. So can you talk a little bit about where these come from why it happens. Absolutely, I think that one of the challenges with suicidal thoughts in terms of figuring out where it's coming from is I think a lot of time with anxiety we don't always know the source but often there is some particular prompt or thing in that you can say okay well this is what I'm anxious about the suicidal thoughts sometimes people experience them is just popping into their head and they're not sure why, and they can feel very alarming to them. And I use the framework of Klonsky and his colleagues on three step theory, because what I like about it is it talks about suicidal thoughts. One commonality across many different pathways is that people are experiencing a lot of pain, and they're feeling hopeless about it. And one of the things that I found and working as a therapist and and and just knowing people my personal life is that just helping to identify and get clarify like what is the nature of that pain, where is it coming from that and of itself can bring some relief because it's like okay, the pain is coming from this thing that happened to me, or it's coming from a fear that I'm not going to be able to take care of my family or whatever it is. And without knowing that, even thinking about solutions or those next steps like you were talking about can be so difficult so I think fundamentally where it comes where it comes from is this idea that there's so much pain it's not going to get better and I want to escape it and I think that is where suicidal thoughts, most of the time come from. Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting I was I was looking over you know that that three step theory of suicide and everything and something that I personally realized is something that actually mindfulness meditation really helped me with was understanding that thoughts kind of come and go and like you know there's a lot of meditations where it's like oh think about them as clouds and and some thoughts are stickier than others like I'm a recovering addict like when I got the idea to use I couldn't get rid of it it was just there. So this is kind of a two part or question but so the first one I want to ask you is like, you know, because a lot of people when when that thought pops in their head like, maybe this world would be better off without me maybe it's not worth even trying maybe nothing will get better. Right. Like, I know there's probably not an exact number but like, isn't this, I would think like isn't this something that pops into everybody's head at least like once and like the reason I asked this because I feel like if we understood that this is just one of the times you know and it's part of you know the human experience like maybe maybe that'll help not make it so sticky. Absolutely, I think that's that's a really important point that suicidal thoughts, even serious suicidal thoughts that they're fairly common in the past year suicidal thoughts over 10 million people report in the United States having had serious suicidal thoughts, but in addition to that one thing that I mentioned in the book is an interesting study where they asked people about if they had ever had a suicide when they were near a bridge, or a high place of jumping off. And what they found is that a lot of people who never thought about suicide or consider suicide, had that thought and so it's really common to have, like you said things pop into her head, and if you kind of like okay that's an interesting thought, but whatever that's just a thought, it doesn't kind of build in certain ways and spiral but if it's kind of like okay, well that's weird my brain just did that I wonder why it did that is it warning me to stay away from the edge, or is it something deeper something that I'm in pain about that I need to explore. So even having that ability to reflect and recognize that it's a common experience that you're not alone. And it doesn't it for most people it doesn't mean that you're going to attempt suicide, most people have thoughts do not attempt suicide, and that can be helpful to know that it's worth addressing and thinking about where it's coming from, but also that it's a common experience that Yeah, yeah, especially like you mentioned like, you know, top of a bridge or high place or subway platform, or whatever something that I learned when I really started focusing on my mental health was like, I have thousands of thoughts a day, half of them are completely insane. And, you know, just for example, you know I'm a recovering drug addict and alcoholic, who lives in Las Vegas, right, the thought of like drinking and using it's there every single day, even though I'm nine years sober, but it's sticky and you know, talking with other people working with other people when I was working in treatment. It almost feels like when we kind of obsess and ruminate on that thought a little too much like it. It makes us start obsessing right so so for example and this is just me and you know, like I try to never over analyze dreams, right I've seen people like it'll mess up their entire day and like I learned a long time ago like okay it's a dream I'm personally I'm just leaving it. There it is right. So, can you can you talk a little bit about that I'm not sure I'm sure it is somewhere in the book but like, when it comes to that kind of stickiness of the thought and the rumination it's not a passing thought what are some of the kind of tools that you know are provided in the book. For when it does stick around and passing thought. Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a great point and I also I there are sections on mindfulness and acceptance because of exactly what you're saying. If it's something like a dream or something and you think about and there's not a lot of significance to it then it doesn't need to be dug into. If someone is having suicidal thoughts and and they want to die, I think that it's important to one approach yourself in a compassionate way as much as possible I think sometimes when people have suicidal thoughts they criticize themselves and why am I thinking this way. There's something really fundamentally wrong with me there you know there's something just a fatal flaw about me and instead of thinking that way it's kind of noticing non judgmentally okay I'm having these thoughts what are they telling me. Well, is it because and this is where the workbook really asked people to think about what are the different areas for some people maybe they lost a loved one, or they have a medical illness, or they've been struggling with mental health problems. Once you've identified what the factors are underlying that pain, it opens up to finding the ways to help with that so if it's someone has post traumatic stress disorder you can seek treatment for that. If someone is coping with accepting life has changed for some reason because of a loss, then there are tools in there for building acceptance, and, and trying to soothe yourself in a self compassionate way because that's something I notice a lot with people who have suicidal thoughts, they tend to be very self critical, and instead it's it's looking for ways to approach yourself differently. I think one of the most concrete specific tools in there although there are a lot of different worksheets is hope building and that suicidal thoughts tend to rise especially when someone's in pain, and when they're feeling hopeless. And so the hope acronym stands for has some different exercises but it breaks down to seeking help like how can I connect with others to help me through this. Finding optimism, are there any little sparks looking ahead I think when you're when you're feeling suicidal it's hard to find those things to look forward to it's hard to think about reasons that things could be better. So he is about shifting perspective or changing perspective. Is there too much self flame or you're assuming it'll be bad forever, and the e is for attending to emotions and that's very much looking for ways to do healthy things that help you to feel better do you need more rest do you need to change a relationship that's not healthy for you do you need to connect to more people so that's one set of skills. And, and, and yeah so interesting like self compassion was huge for me like I you know I was a drug addict who screwed over everybody in my life I wasn't there for my son. You know it's terrible to you know my son's mom my family friends everything like that. And no matter what people said about me I was beating myself up way more and that kind of guilt like I'm nine years sober. I tell people like I'm still struggling with some of this stuff like I might my son doesn't even remember me drinking and music because I got sober when he was three doesn't even remember, but every once a while I get that paying of guilt so learning self compassion, a lot of it you know through mindfulness like loving kindness meditations and you know some of the best advice I ever got was treat yourself like you would a friend. Right. Like if if anybody was talking to my friend the way I talked to myself like we'd have a problem. Exactly no I think that I think that's an incredibly helpful tool and you're right you can't change the past but you can give yourself credit for making those very difficult changes to go into recovery and maintain it and so I do think that that's so important because otherwise it's very hard to live a good life. If you're walking around criticizing yourself all the time. Yeah, yeah, and, and the other thing you touch on a hope that that's actually a little self promo plug that was the first book that I, I self published was called hope and it's my story of overcoming depression and anxiety and addiction and that's the one thing that kept me going was this, this hope right just a little glimmer of hope because for a long time. I felt absolutely hopeless and I know you talk about this in the book like support support groups and things like that. But what helped me out a ton and not everybody has access to this because they're not drug addicts and alcoholics, but I went to 12 step meetings and I saw people who were where I was, and things got better for them and now I try to give that to others like if people could only see where I was nine 10 years ago. You know, but that hope kept me going just a little bit. So how, how do we find hope when everything seems hopeless because our brain can make us seem like nope that that's going to turn out terrible that's going to turn out terrible. All that where do we where do we find that hope. Absolutely, that I think the one of the other major frames of the book is cognitive behavioral therapy and talks about how when you're in a downstate having suicidal thoughts, often your brain is looking for the negatives and, and even if there's something positive kind of disqualifying it like someone says something nice to me will there. They don't really mean it they're just trying to be nice or whatever it is. And so I think that's one of the huge strengths of 12 step programs that they have built in really good support, a sponsor, people who are at all different levels of change and I think that's really important. There are pure support for mental health and a lot of areas and I think it serves the same kind of ability to promote hope you can talk to someone who knows firsthand what you've been through, and you can see a difference. One of the things I think about as I try to ask people look in look in the past where there are things you thought you'd never get through what you were able to get. How do you get through that and and and kind of building on some of those strengths and recognizing your ability to do that. The other part of it is thinking that there are feelings so I can feel so alone and feel like your things that work for other people are not going to work for you. I'm trying to understand that there are resources available, but you can reach out to them and that you're worthy of that can be really helpful so pure supports kind of looking to others for inspiration I actually think that's been a really positive thing that more celebrities have talked about their mental health struggles because I think that allows people to also look at those stories and feel hopeful. And like, and like you said to like, like I'm 36 years old and something that has saved my butt on multiple occasions is how many times in my lifetime, right since I was a toddler. Have I said, I'm never going to get through this. This is never going to get better right and I remind myself of that regularly. And you know I've talked about it on the podcast and everything but like in 2019 I had the internet coming after and it was the worst mental place I've been in, in ages right, like thoughts of relapse thoughts of suicide and all that and something that helped me get through that difficult time aside from like my support like my, my family my lovely girlfriend and all that was remembering how much I've been through and how much I've overcome. And if nothing else that reminds me that you know I, I'm resilient and I'm a survivor and I can get through stuff you know, and here I am two years from that experience. And I'm, you know, I'm fine and we look back on it like oh wow that was trivial and even if it's a job loss or a breakup or, you know, financial difficulties you know what I mean. But you know so much of this, well not so much all of this is happening between our two years and you just mentioned CBT. And that's, you know that's right here in the subtitle of the workbook like CBT skills so I always try to explain CBT to people. It's an evidence based amazing therapeutic practice. And I think I do a terrible job explaining it so can you discuss. What is CBT. Why is it so effective. Why, why should people turn to this book and learn some CBT skills to work on this. And cognitive behavioral therapy is I, it kind of Aaron Beck basically created it and it was from clinical work working with people and he was trained actually in psychoanalysis and, and a Freud kind of background, but he started noticing patterns of thoughts that people had about themselves about the world and developed cognitive behavioral therapy from that so the basic idea is that when you're experiencing depression anxiety suicidal thoughts. There are certain perceptions that are maintaining that and so when it's depression, often, it's a lot of all or nothing thinking so you've tried to do something and there's some, you get feedback at work about something is great except one small criticism, and your brain latches on to that and it disqualifies all the positive. So a lot of it is about filtering the negative, or it can be things like mind reading like assuming that someone's mad at you because they didn't. They had like a facial expression or they didn't text you back right away or whatever it is, when they might just have something else completely going on. And so the idea is that these are automatic thoughts are not things that we do on purpose. But that the world is happening, and our interpretations of them influence our emotions. In addition, behaviors are connected to. So if I feel really socially anxious and my thought is, you know, people are going to think bad things about me. So I'm going to avoid going out and talking to people that anxiety is just going to continue to strengthen, because the avoidance reduces anxiety and then I learn that okay avoidance is the way to cope with that. So what kind of behavioral therapy does is help to identify the thoughts, identify what the potential thinking errors might be. And then go through the evidence this isn't about positive thinking it's not about that. It's about evidence based taking a set learning to be a curious scientist. And then go through the evidence and coming up with a reframed thought that is more accurate. And so the truth is that if I give a speech or something and I started stammering in the middle of it. And afterwards I'm thinking the whole thing was a complete failure everybody thinks I'm an idiot, then cognitive behavioral therapy wouldn't just go oh you were fine you didn't really stammer, it would say. In reality, a lot of people do that when they're giving presentations overall it was pretty good and even if people thought that wasn't great, I can still tolerate it and live like it so that's kind of the as brief of a version is I can see why it's so can be so powerful and I've certainly felt that in my own life that it's been a powerful tool that doesn't take away all the pain, but it can reduce it or at least shift my perspective on things. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know what I'm going to tell you something Katie because you're probably the only one who will understand who's been on my podcast. So with all the books that I read from such a wide range of topics from psychology to philosophy and science. It's all about CBT and working on my mental health and I try to teach that that's one of the reasons like I'm like, we can take something from every book but anyways, what I'm getting at is like I've had people on my podcast who debunk conspiracy theories and stuff like that. All of us you're not going to meet somebody and say hey are you a rational thinker and they'll say no, I'm completely right. We all like to think that we're scientific rational thinkers, and that's what CBT is so like what you're talking about like, we get those those thoughts like things are never going to get better or this person hates me I used to struggle with crippling social anxiety I couldn't even have these conversations. And all it was was taking a step back and getting curious questioning it like a scientist. Like, how, like, where would I find the evidence that everybody hates me. Yeah, where is that solid evidence is this a factor is this opinion, you know what I mean and it's all about sitting back and questioning my thoughts. So when I'm reading books about like conspiracy theories and debunking those. I'm still gathering tools to work on this thing here because like I can't look at you know conspiracy theories of the flat earth and stuff, but then believe my own ridiculous thoughts that just come through so so that's kind of my little secret hack that I'm hoping to spread to other people and show that we're like we could pull this from other things so and you mentioned that you do recent like your researcher to so do you take some of those tools and apply it to your daily life and the thinking and stuff like that that comes through. Absolutely, I think that I, I very much the program that I was in in graduate school was a clinical scientists program and in therapy. I am a scientist who's coming up with hypotheses testing them out. And with compassion, all that is very compassionate because I think sometimes people feel like that means that you're kind of robotic. One of the things is that I'm, I have humility to know that I that I might be wrong and what I mean by testing hypothesis is checking in with the person to see if what I'm saying is helping, or if I'm wrong and if I'm wrong. That means saying okay, well I checked out the evidence I was wrong. Let me go back and let's try something else together versus really kind of digging in my heels and saying this has to be the right thing. So I think, like you I mean all the time in my work and my research and my therapy I try to think like a scientist. It doesn't. It doesn't mean that there's no pain or hurt or anything like that in the world, but it does mean that there are ways of reducing suffering in areas where there might not be an issue, or where we're thinking, okay now everything's bad because of that. So someone had asked me previously like do you use any of the tools of the workbook I use these tools all the time. I mean I think that since my father was a therapist and he gave me CBT book by David Burns called feeling good. When I was in college, and that had a big effect on the way that I was able to think about things like it was groundbreaking to me to think, okay don't assume that someone doesn't like me because they didn't respond to me right away or whatever it was just stuff like that or don't assume that everything's going to be a disaster. And so this is something I've been practicing for years and years and years and I do find it very helpful in a lot of different domains, including sorting through news and making decisions and all of that. Aside from CBT, my second favorite therapy is from Albert Ellis, R-E-B-T. I love that. When I read his book, what is it like? How to stubbornly refuse to make yourself miserable or whatever? And yeah, and it really helps me dial it down because like you mentioned like it doesn't get rid of the pain or the hurt but like R-E-B-T taught me like I even told my therapist when I came across I'm like hey you got any R-E-B-T stuff. Because like when something happens and my brain wants to catastrophize it, R-E-B-T teaches me like yes this is terrible or yes this hurts but know this feeling isn't going to kill me. No this isn't going to last forever. It helps me just kind of dampen it and turn the volume down on that emotion just a little bit or that thought or whatever it is. And here's one of the main reasons I wanted to talk to you too that I keep thinking about as I have this conversation is you know it's all about work and putting in the work and you know you have worksheets and everything. It's doing something but you know we all have different symptoms of depression right? But one that I see seems to hit everybody when we're depressed or feeling suicidal or whatever it is is the lack of motivation. So it's like if I'm not motivated I'm not going to go to the store and buy your book. I'm not going to even go to Amazon and order your book. I'm not going to you know and even if I do it's going to sit over there and I'm not going to do it. So like that I feel like that is just such a root issue that we have to tackle. So what do we do about that? How do we just get that ball rolling so we want to do the work to get better? You're 100% right. It is one of the hardest things in therapy that I think before receiving training to be a therapist I didn't understand how much motivation was a big piece of what I work on as a therapist right? It's like great you have all these skills but you've got to meet people where they're at and that's why I do think that self-help is important, that it's available because you can have greater access to it and some people don't want to go in to see a therapist. But it does help whether it's a therapist or it's in a 12 step group or it's someone else in your life having someone who can sit with you and say okay maybe you can't go through this whole workbook from start to finish. But can we look at this is actually why the table of contents has like a very lengthy second table of contents that just lists every worksheet. The idea is that someone could say I'm in a lot of pain right now and I need something that they could look at that and while the whole book is too much for them in that moment or whatever, maybe they can pick one worksheet from that and do that and see if that helps and if that builds things up. And it is a theme throughout the book which is I know this is hard and taking little steps are a big deal like don't dismiss it because you can't go all your way through it. So I think it is a real issue and something that is why you know therapy still exists is because people like that interpersonal part and feeling supported as they go through it. I don't I don't think there are any easy answers to it I one thing that I noticed is I think a lot of people get mental health information from things like tick tock or social media or other things like that. And so I did try to think about okay what are some bite sized ways to put things in there and then actually the illustrator that I collaborated with for the book. The idea of that idea was like maybe it's too much to have all this text to go through but maybe a picture or an image might help people to just have a couple of ideas that they could get through. And kind of like you mentioned to just I yeah I loved how you broke that down you have like the worksheets just listed out right there because sometimes it's just I need to open this or you know whatever. And it's it's all about these like these baby steps so quick question for you I don't know if you if you've read the book or you know this work, but Dr Alex core wrote a book called upward spiral. You heard of that book. I am familiar with it but I haven't read it actually. So that book was really helpful to me he was actually on my YouTube channel, like a year or two ago but something I learned from that book was just like, you know, it's a lot of it's like based around neuroscience. But it's it's accomplishing these very small goals, and it kind of like ignites this, you know, upward spiral. So, you know, and that's something I kind of learned even in my recovery because I think aside from the lack of motivation. It seems overwhelming right like when I'm thinking about getting therapy I'm thinking about. Oh, I got to look up a therapist I got a research of therapists are they a good therapist what and then I call them and I got to set all that up and I got to deal with going there or you know whatever it is and what if I don't like them, all these things right. And you know when I was getting sober it's like I got to stay sober forever, and people are like, no stay sober today. I'm like, Oh, okay. And I'm like well today's pretty rough they're like okay stay sober for the next hour. It's just like that so like even when it comes to you know my depression and lack of motivation it's like do this one small thing, like I used to call in sick to work like, half a year like not that much all the time right. And it was all the, and I just had no motivation to do anything and you know, for years now like I'm known as the guy who doesn't even call in sick when I am sick, because a lot of it is when I'm not feeling motivated like I'm just like just do one little thing. Just do it. And sometimes like, you know that's just with my son. Right. Like, okay, I got to, you know, make him lunch or help him with, well he's 12 now and I've been getting him into cooking so he's like, it's kind of perfect. Yeah, but it's just these little things that I find it just kind of gets that spark going. Absolutely. And I don't mind I think that that spark idea the illustration with the sparklers is 100% what you're saying it is very hard to think big picture and it's demotivating to think about oh I have to do all this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And, and here's a question it's kind of a more of a societal thing and I'm sure you've recognized it but like, when it comes to the conversation around mental health I get. conflicted and I'm curious your thoughts because sometimes it's like, you'll see maybe memes or something floating around and it's like, you know, I'm depressed, I can't just go for a walk or I'm depressed I can't just do this and I'm like, I get what you're saying that it's not an easy fix but at the same time, it feels like it's encouraging a do nothing type thing so so I'm curious your thoughts like have you have you noticed that and I get that we shouldn't be like pressuring people and we should be understanding and empathetic of their feelings but at the same time like for those of us who have friends and things like that like we want to encourage them and not just be like oh yeah nothing's going to help you. So, so what what are your thoughts around that and those memes and conversations that kind of happen about just don't do anything. That's such a fantastic question I think that that with one of the things that I really like about cognitive behavioral therapy is it talks about how. Basically, you cannot want to do things but you can still do them right and, and, and so the way that I look at it is, I very compassionately, which is like I get that it's hard and why it's such a struggle, and that with anxiety and depression I get it that is real that's 100% valid. And if you do this thing you're nervous about that's actually more compassionate for me to encourage you to do that, especially as a therapist of my personal life, totally different boundaries but as a therapist. If you do that because you're going to see, oh you actually can do that it's not as bad as you thought it was going to be, and you can tolerate anxiety. And even with depression to it's like, if I get that it's hard okay well going for a walk is short let's dial it down can you sit outside for a little bit. The idea is doing something so that you don't feel stuck and and build that hopelessness. And so I think that we can be very compassionate and understanding, but I actually think some of this comes up and like self care ideas and narratives that self care can be essential that we're taking care of our needs and things like that, but sometimes is it avoidance like self care means that I'm, I'm not going to do a bunch of stuff that I need to do to kind of take care of myself. And so I do think that all of these ideas can in a meme form the nuance can be removed from them and I do get concerned about that in therapy, you can have a conversation and and talk about it with nuance with memes it's much harder to do that. Yeah, yeah, and that's kind of one of the things that I that I realize. So yeah without diving too much into it but the issue that I ran into in 2019 like I, I got better from like a little bit of tough love right because a lot of people you know when I was you know in in the deepest places would enable me I'm like yeah don't do this don't do that you know and they they kind of encouraged that kind of behavior and to get better I needed people to say hey it's time to get off your butt and go do just a little bit of something, even if you don't want to. Right. And, and, and yeah because it's it's difficult to have those conversations but sometimes we need to hear it and like you mentioned there's there's more nuance that that kind of comes in and it's like, Okay, but we could do a little something and and and that's why I don't know where it's, you know, especially with like jobs and everything and not allowing like mental health days and all that, because when I'm talking with a friend or someone who even comes to me just through my YouTube channel or social media and says, Oh, you know what do you think about mental health days I'm like as long as you do something with it like, like if you take a mental health thing you sit there like binging Netflix and downing a gallon of ice cream. And all that a mental health day like go for a walk get get a few things done, like whatever so there's a great question. If I'm feeling overwhelmed depressed anxious, whatever it is and I'm taking a mental health day. What are some things that I could do, Katie that that is that is very individualized I think and, and I think that what something that you're talking about with ice cream and and Netflix which may be very appropriate at times whether times might not be the test that I think of is what am I going to feel good about. Where is my a day from now a week from now six months from now. If your mental health is truly going to feel better from Netflix and ice cream and not doing anything else. Okay, cool do it. But if you're actually going to feel like, Oh, you know, my, I still into my laundry, or I still have bills piling up. Or I still have bills piling up, or I feel so guilty because I didn't get any, you know I didn't get any outdoor time or didn't anything in that, then that's not a great thing to do, or do that and something else and so I really try to think about self care mental what I would say is like, what is the thing that I am going to feel a good about refreshed renewed about the next day because if I have to go back to work I want to actually feel better that's the whole. Yeah, yeah, and, and I think it's great that you said that like I you know, do do whatever you want like like because I'll sit there and I'll binge Netflix with my son and girlfriend and stuff like that but it's like I feel good about the quality of the workaholic right you know like I love to work like after this I go to my full time job and all sorts of stuff. But you know if if Netflix and ice cream is your thing, but it's like you know earlier we were talking about the self compassion. If after I down that ice cream and binge Netflix, am I going to beat myself up over because if that's going to be the result that maybe I shouldn't but here, here's something to kind of continue this topic like you know about like memes and you know, like one of them that I see to is just like, I'm having an anxiety attack don't tell me to just breathe right. And so I want to know how much, or how important you think education is around improving your mental health because I read an insane amount of books, and I've learned like, like when I was new and someone's like oh just take deep breaths I'm like that's dumb, but now I know about the Vegas nerve. I know about different studies around how it helps, or when people say go for a walk outside, like what, but now I know about studies around how big in nature and go I go for a walk every single morning now. You know audio books or you know, so, so again like, without knowing the research and the science behind it. Of course it sounds stupid. So, how, how big of a role do you think education plays in, in improving yourself like knowing the science behind like what you're telling people to do in this workbook. I think that that's huge. And in therapy CBT one of the things I like about it is it's big on education, and the type of approach that I take in therapy is very much comes from two approaches motivational interviewing and self determination theory and what that suggests is like all of us by our nature if someone tells us to do something not all of us but most of us are like, I don't want to do that. And that sounds too simple for my complex problem. So, I think that having a rationale, like you're saying knowing the background, the research and the reasoning for it opens us up to try things to at least try them. And so I was glad that someone had told me because I saw most of my writing has been academic and so writing the workbook was really different. And I was worried I didn't want to get to in the weeds about research and stuff that wasn't really interesting to people, but at least one person told me that that helped me feel like they weren't being talked down to and just told to do a bunch of stuff that they were like, the reason I'm suggesting you do this is because research shows that it helps so I think that's key. So much that like, I front loaded the book with that because it's like why should you listen to me I don't know you. Why should you take my suggestions. Well, I don't know you personally but what I do know both from therapeutic experiences and from research is that these things tend to help so that they're worth trying kind of thing so yeah I agree with you I think it's huge. There's a doctor Dr. Judson Brewer. He does a lot of studies around like neuroscience and mindfulness and everything and something I learned from him a while back he called it the brain mechanic. And he and maybe it's because I had a history and like car repair service, but he explained how like, you know, if you don't know anything about cars, and you're driving down the road in the middle of nowhere and a light comes on, you don't know you're going to freak out. But if you have a little bit of mechanical knowledge, you're going to be like, Oh, here's what's happening. And he he made that analogy to discuss why it's important that we learn about how our brains work. And I adapt that to like that's why I want to know what the research says what are the studies say, and all this, because now I know what I'm doing doesn't work how effective is it. It's also helped me know options right because sometimes and I'm sure you've run into this, you know, as a therapist, like, will try one thing and it doesn't work and then we just get this idea. Nothing works. And it's like, like, no, maybe, maybe this didn't work for you but that will and, and stuff so so that's another thing like do you try to in this workbook do you try to cover a wide range of options like from like writing to physical activity to support group and all that kind of stuff what kind of options are out there for dealing with depression and suicidal thoughts. Totally I think therapy and our own journeys and mental health are a lot more trial and error than you'd like to think but even we think about how medications work and a lot of time it's trial and error to figure out what's going to work for what person we don't automatically know this is going to help with anxiety or this is going to help with depression therapy is the same way and I try to be pretty transparent about that in the book and in therapy which is that I want you know let's try. Try a couple of those things, but if those don't work don't worry there's a whole bunch of other stuff that we can try. And that's where I completely agree with you that the education is important because that alone can give you hope, because you recognize that one, you know you're not alone in it and that so much you're so not alone in it that people have studied it, and people have created different treatments for because the same treatment doesn't work for everyone maybe it's not CBT maybe it's acceptance and commitment therapy or dialectical behavior therapy, or maybe it's pulling from these different sources. And the idea then is that you can make your own. You can take those tools that work for you but even if those don't work later, there are others available. And so I agree with you I think that it's so important to know that it's more of a curiosity. Let's see what works versus a like, this is the one answer if it doesn't work for you your adult luck kind of thing which is which could be really devastating. Yeah, yeah, absolutely and that's that's something that that saved me early on I think like the first month or two and I got sober. I only have like three tools right. Like a meeting call my sponsor or read like the big book those are the only three, and I just kept recycling through those and eventually one of them work right and now nine years later I have this like metaphorical toolbox that's the size of my apartment right and I just hope that didn't work okay I'll try this that didn't work I'll try this that didn't work I'll try this and and it's just going through that roll of decks of tools that we have and and the more you know you research and investigate and try new things. And even, even now there's some things that work for me one day, but the next day, they don't right, like some days nothing's working and I'm like pretty introverted and I don't like asking for help. But some days I'm like I hit a brick wall. It's time to reach out to my friend or something like that, but I have a little bit more of your time and something I wanted to ask you about since we're coming slowly coming out of coven and all that right. There's been a lot of talk about you know the rising depression rates rising suicide rates when kids were being homes or not homeschool but doing distance learning last year, a lot of people are talking about their mental health. And we talked about this a little bit before the call like my, my concern is ever since I started looking into this stuff addiction and suicide rates and depression and anxiety, all these rates have been rising, right. So, from what you've seen in the last year how much has coven affected this and, you know, is there anything we should be, you know, looking at is why these rates have just been rising in general since pre coven. Yeah, it's, it's really was surprising to see that in 2020 and 2019 finally the suicide rate slightly decreased after rising for years and years, while suicidal thoughts like like you mentioned and overdoses increased in 2020. And so, the question about why this is happening I think it's so complicated and it's ultimately dissatisfying to talk to people like me about because I. It's hard to speculate. And so I usually try not to speculate too much. I think that there were some surprising potential buffers during 2020 despite rises in suicidal thoughts, because of telehealth I actually think that's a huge deal that insurance and telehealth, so that people more people can have therapy I mean out in areas where there aren't that many therapists I think that's one thing that like we should hold on to and carry that forward. But I also think there's been a lot of looking at working and work environments and was it for some people working from home, helpful were they able to connect more with their family. Or any way that we can have more flexibility and it seems like for some workplaces they are thinking okay well maybe sometimes people can work from home. And that's okay because maybe that relieves some of the stress for them or as others are like no it's back to kind of pre pandemic. So, I worry a lot about about the suicidal thoughts at rising and and the rates at any level, because I do think that some of them come down to things like okay more access to therapy and and things like that, but I also think there are these huge factors that are much bigger than that, like access to health care if someone has a medical condition, and they're unable to to seek the care they need without going broke. They're more likely to have suicidal thoughts right because they're more likely to be facing that. I think that even the changes and the affordable care act allowing for pre people with pre existing conditions to be free was a huge change. I wonder about this. This child tax kind of allowance that we're getting the benefits that might have having that type of money because I do think a lot of times suicidal thoughts they can come from all kinds of places but sometimes they're things like not having basic needs that work stress, not being able to access care. And so I hope that there's more thought and suicide prevention I do see this more in the organization I belong to, looking at those big kind of upstream factors and not just looking at like when do we intervene later. So I kind of rambled and didn't really answer your question that well. Like, no, that's the thing and as you were talking I'm like, I'm like, yeah, she's right like it's it there's no status factory answer like and this is why I encourage people to go to therapy and get books like yours and we have to figure out what our thing is right like being home like has been a blessing for me right like the time it took for me to get to work. Like that took two hours a day away from spending time with my son and my girlfriend and things like that. Right. And like you mentioned there's economic issues are so many things and when we, when we, you know, when we do these types of worksheets or whatever we could see what our thing is and then we can hyper focus on. Oh, this is it because something that I recently was I've been really interested in evolutionary psychology lately too. And something that I forgot who it was it might have been Jesse bearing in his book, but he brought up that, you know, sometimes suicidal thoughts and this idea that it would be better for the tribe. If I wasn't here because I am taking resources away from them and I am not worth it right. So, if we're unemployed if we don't have money to support people, you know there's people who think like oh if my kids just get my life insurance money they'll be better than if I'm around. So, I don't even know why I'm like using other people as an example, but I was at the end of my addiction at rock bottom, and they were like begging me to stop and get better. I was telling them that my son would be better off without me. Right. It'd be better for him if he didn't have to worry about his attic that and you know and things like that, but hey, worked on my addiction. Now I know that little sucker needs me. It's a bit of fit of it I can provide I can be there for him. But but yeah so part of this and and it's crazy because I often forget how casually I could talk about all this stuff. And one of the last things I wanted to ask you because I think it's a major part of this conversation and how do we get people talking about this. There's a lot of talk, and we could talk about this forever but I just want your brief thoughts like there's a lot of talk around trigger warnings. Suicide and media like I'm sure you heard about all the stuff around 13 reasons why and all this, and I hear conflicting research around like trigger warnings and all that. Like for example, when prepping for this, I was like, do I put a trigger warning at the beginning or whatever, but I've heard conflicting research that if you put a trigger warning it's almost like the don't think of a white bear. Right, right. So, so when it comes to these conversations like what are your thoughts around like media and trigger warnings and and think like how important. Are they without, you know, we could talk about this if we have to we'll do a whole another episode but but yeah what are your thoughts around this to just because I see it as a net positive because we get to have more conversations and it starts a discussion. Yeah, absolutely I think that I think that it's useful to give people heads up about what the content is about that they're going to they're going to listen to. There's been some interesting research in. There's actually an experimental study looking at two articles about suicide one told about how the method that the person died by suicide in it. And the other kind of followed more typical media guidelines, and they didn't find that details about the method of suicide, at least in their sample which I believe was where college undergrads had the effect that some might think that it would. I think that one, I think, obviously there's controversy around this my personal feeling after reading of the literature talking to people all that stuff is it's good to give people heads up about what you're talking about. It's good to talk about difficult things and not avoid those things. So if someone's in a vulnerable space where that's not going to be helpful to them, then it's good for them just to know ahead of time like, okay maybe I won't watch 13 reasons why if I'm really depressed and they have these, you know, graphic details and scenes and stuff like that. So I think that it's a balance one thing that I also think is important when talking about suicide or other difficult things is to always balance it with that hope with idea. There are resources available there are treatments you're not alone there is support so that piece of it regardless of however else things are talked about is important. I think the other piece is describing things without blaming people and and that's those two things if you can not blame people and say hey there are ways to get help, there are resources and you're not alone. So what I think can do a lot of good asking people about suicide does a good thing it can open up conversations where they might have not before. I think being direct about it is helpful because you know part of the reason the title is head is the suicidal Thoughts Workbook right like a lot of self help books have, you know just feel good with no offense to David Burns I didn't actually didn't mean. I love his book. That's like a major book that I love, but a lot of them are more about like just generically like make your life greater whatever it is. I wanted something so that if someone is having suicidal thoughts, they know this is the suicide thoughts workbook. So I think I tend to lean on the side of let's openly discuss. Let's give people a heads up, but the only way we're going to talk about this thing and take away some of the taboo of it is to be open and direct and name it as it is and not dance around it. Yeah, absolutely and that's that's one of the reasons I wanted to have you on and was excited to check out the workbook like because it's right there right like sometimes it's like we don't even know and like you know that's why I as a YouTube right I have issues with YouTube because they suppress stuff that talks about depression and suicide I'm like, oh what if somebody's trying to find it. Exactly. But yeah there is there's so much in this book and I hope everybody listening gets a copy checks it out just to understand because we need to get to cover there's there's stuff in here about when to see a professional. There's stuff in here for like friends and family, like, there's so much in this book, like, I hope people get it so if nothing else it helps people understand and empathize and, and if they do encounter someone who's struggling. They could be like boom, I got some worksheets for you so so Katie before I let you go where where can people find you to keep up with all the cool stuff you're doing and where can they find this book. Thank you so much for your kind words Chris and for this interview I really appreciate this opportunity to talk to and I love what you're doing because like you said you're talking openly about your experiences. I know that that helps people. So, I am on Twitter too much my handles at Dr Catherine Gordon, K dr kth ryn dr do and my website is Catherine aged Gordon calm. I'm on Instagram with the same handle I'm not on there as much. The book is available at most places it's held books so Amazon bookshop indie bound Barnes and Noble directly from my publisher which is which is new harbinger. And it's not a replacement for therapy but it's another resource that is out there and that I sincerely hope reaches people are struggling and that you feel supported by it. I love it I will be linking all that stuff down below so Katie I know we will be chatting, you know, again soon but thank you so much for coming on. You're welcome. Thank you Chris.