 As the jostle for the highly coveted position continues, we examine the qualities of who would stare Nigeria's ship away from the ethnic, religious and political crisis it is faced with. And the Third Force movement adopts Labour Party for the 2023 elections. This is Plus Politics. I am Mary Anacoff. The primaries for the 2023 presidential elections are already here and political parties are preparing to nominate their candidates. It is the time to examine the potential prospects of who we are looking at to mount the bid for presidency. The Southern and Middle Belt Leaders Forum has insisted that zoning and rotation of presidency of Nigeria are fundamental to the future existence of the country and faltered what it called obvious schemes by two main political parties which are the PDP and the APC to zone its presidency to the north. Meanwhile, the Northern Elders Forum has faltered the clamour for major political parties in the country to zone their 2023 presidential tickets to the south saying that it would result to damage that the north would not accept. What's running us to discuss this is director of publicity Northern Elders Forum Dr Hakim Baba Ahmed and of course also joining us is the acting chairman of Bayelsa Elders Forum Chief Thompson Okruti. Thank you so much gentlemen for joining us. Thank you. Doctor, let me start by taking you back to 2015. Just before the 2015 elections while campaigns were ongoing we heard more of people saying that the 2015 elections was going to be a game changer. It was going to be that election that would steer the ship of Nigeria in the right direction. We heard those kinds of rhetoric. But then here we are seven years down the line. We don't necessarily know if we really can hold on to that assertion and now we seem to be hearing the same kind of rhetoric that whoever we choose would decide the future of Nigeria based on the fact that we are experiencing all kinds of shaking whether it be in the north, the south, I mean literally everywhere including the southeast. Can you really say that that statement that is being thrown around is something we can hold on to in picking a leader come 2023? Is this my question? Yes. Well first, thank you for inviting me to your programme. 2015 was supposed to have been a watershed. It was by all the indications on the ground we supported President Bohairi because we thought he was better than President Jonathan and he was going to do better than President Jonathan and that's why everybody was so excited. Literally we thought he was going to represent a game changer and that's why we supported President Bohairi. It turned out to be a watershed but in a negative sense of the country is a lot worse seven years down the road. President Bohairi has not delivered on any of his promises. In fact on the contrary we are worse off security-wise there is more corruption in the land than we think. We thought there would ever be under any president not to talk of a president that came to power on the back of fighting corruption. The economy is in a mess worse than it has ever been and so yes, we had hoped it was going to be watershed it has turned out to be a terrible negative turn of events. Poor governance, misrule, insensitivity on the part of the president elected to be the savior of the nation as so to speak. This is one of the reasons why we have insisted that we should be very careful this time. We made mistakes in 2015 in believing that an individual who comes forward with an image of a reformer was good enough to be our president we should learn our lessons from President Bohairi we should make that mistake again this time. So you're saying that we were looking more at I mean because you see every time somebody is being picked we look at the antecedents of a person we look at a trail of what the person has done if he's been a trailblazer and whatever he or she has done. So are you telling us that we made a mistake judging President Bohairi from his past being that many had said that you know his past when he was the head of state he was strict and many put their trust in the fact that he would be able to fight corruption being a no-nonsense person but I want to ask you what do you think changed was it the man who changed or was it us who thought that the man was capable of doing the job and he was not capable? I think I'll be honest yeah I think we were supported him where the people who made the mistake rather than the person he didn't change it turned out that President Bohairi had always just wanted to be president and the governance was not his priority there were difficult decisions to make there was no time to make those decisions he took all his time to make the wrong decisions and he allowed the country to drift when he should have exercised from grip on the nation governed with sensitivity, inclusiveness some level of empathy and lead, literally lead rather than just simply delegate responsibility so it turned out that many of us who supported him were wrong he wasn't and it turned out that he just wanted to be president and as far as we were concerned that was only me you talk about image I think if you are looking for a nail to hang on the President Bohairi mistake and whether it was real or not you have to hang it on the rocks that was created by the PDP from 1999 the PDP misgoverned this country and created the basis for which the people were desperate enough to trust someone like President Bohairi who, yes, in his first time of coming was extremely unpopular people said he took all the wrong decisions he was hard, he was unyielding he was insensitive but they saw someone who was who wasn't corrupt he had an exercise, he was a governor he was a minister of petrol resources general in the military he didn't have 100 houses he didn't have billions and he was a man who was consistent he said give me Nigeria and I will fight corruption I will rid it of corruption give me Nigeria, I will fight insecurity give me Nigeria and I will get our young people jobs and contrast him with Jonathan who then had the disadvantage of being in power and he'd been in power since I think 2009 and he was doing very badly so it was easy to choose Bohairi against Jonathan but you wouldn't know the mistake you make sometimes until the person you choose is actually in power and then the true character of the person shows one would wonder if we keep making this like you said mistakes by choice because it looks like every time we have a new leader we tend to say oh maybe the guy who we thought was bad could actually be better I mean we keep saying people even go as far as the Abbasanja era to say oh when during the Abbasanja era we were able to do this and that as opposed to now so now we're here in 2022 getting ready for 2023 and we've seen many people who have thrown their hats into the ring saying they want to lead this country and most of which we already know where they're coming from we've seen them lead in different capacities in this country so I don't know if we should be talking about the persons or we should be talking about Nigerians, we the people and the choices that we are supposed to make so I'll pose a question to you South what do you think that Nigerians need at this point in time because the North is saying well we don't necessarily need zoning the South East and the South South is saying we want zoning it's our time we should be able to take the lead in this presidential race but what do you think as an elder statesman the country needs to deal with the issues that we have on all fronts because I always say that if you were to put a compass and anywhere the compass pointed in Nigeria you would see that we're facing all kinds of problems whether it be ethnic, religious, terrorism, whatever it is what do we need right now to deal with the issues that we have on our plate what we need is to learn from the past it's vital that we learn what has happened to this country in the last 20 years since 1999 and then find the kind of person who would provide solutions to some of those problems that have become manifest the first one is we need a generally Nigerian president not an ethnic president not a regional president not somebody defined by his face but a Nigerian president who would be elected by all Nigerians in a free and fair election who would have solid record of achievement competence and experience behind him and the kind of Nigerian who showed the level of commitment and sensitivity to deal with issues of insecurity all the way from Borno to Oyo and deal with the issue of the southeast that is falling apart because of the activities of IPOC we want a Nigerian president who would not polarise the country but bring it together we want a Nigerian president who would build bridges and command rest we want a Nigerian president who would rebuild institutions public services, the economy we want a Nigerian who would be humble we want a Nigerian who would not allow himself to be corrupt or allow corruption around him literally we need a president who is entirely different from a lot of the people that we had in power since 1999 and now they come from everywhere everywhere you go you can find someone who fits that deal which is the reason why we make the case don't regionalise or localise the source of the presidency throw it open every Nigerian needs to feel that whoever becomes president is his or her person when you create an ethnic toga around the president the possibility that he or she might actually behave as if he represents a particular part of the country those possibilities are real and they are very dangerous more than anything else we don't want the future to become a whole stage of the past we made mistakes in the past but then there are people who are saying I'm sorry to talk over you there are people who say that why didn't we think of this before now why is it that it's the time of the south that we're beginning to wax lyrical about the kind of person that we need to lead us and Nigerianising our presidents instead of regionalising them and I don't know if we really do that but then we also have the conversation or the debate about federal character whether it be written in the constitution or not it comes to zoning we're saying that look Nigeria might be very diverse and for power to go round so everybody has a and this is not me saying it I'm just saying this is what the arguments that are being made so that everybody has a chance at it why I understand why was this not considered in the past when it's our turn when is the south where do you get the idea of the south is it written in the constitution well I just mentioned that when people say like you did now when you only talk about this when it's our turn how does it become anybody's turn it's not in the constitution it's not in the Nigerian constitution there is nothing anywhere that says that a president must come from a particular part of the country the constitution is very clear parties would choose candidates vote and we ever get the requirement to be president would be president that's the fundamentals but has that been the modus operandi before now because political parties will tell you especially the PDP who came up with this idea of zoning and that it was a gentleman's agreement but many have followed it even though there are those who would argue that at some points with the Jonathan experience there was a shift but the argument is still that if it's not in the constitution how come it's being followed up until now being followed by who by PDP and it's being followed by default let me remind you that the only party that introduced and codified zoning between north and south is PDP and PDP breached even that it's all rules over and over again I would like to remind you about the quarrels in 2014-2015 which in a way created the basis upon which the APC became the ruling party so this business of APC why is the zoning now is it not the same PDP that through ticket is open should this country become slave to PDP's failures and limitations PDP is only one party in this country it's not the only party that determines what Nigeria is doing PDP itself doesn't respect its own rules so how is it possible that what PDP did or didn't do or subverted now has become a mantra for everybody we are not you see people may confuse two things Nigeria is a diverse complex country it is a good thing that we should allow inclusiveness that's what we should allow every community in this country needs to see part of whatever becomes whatever government is for that is why the federal character provisions are there yet we single out one office the president's office and say it must be ours it's not the law does not allow any president no matter where he comes from to run a government to the exclusion of others okay so even the Buhari you hear about this complain that he's running another government it's not true I'm not a final president Buhari but it's not true that he's running a government there are ministers from all parts of this country there are public officers from all parts of the country the mistake we make is in thinking unless we have a president from our own president and the thing about it is that nobody is no body's president he's elected entirely from Nigeria so even if he drops from the heavens so long as he is the president he doesn't belong to anybody and he shouldn't belong to anybody that is the important okay well we're being joined now by the acting chairman of Biosa Elders Forum Chief Thompson Okuriti Mr. Okuriti I don't know if you've been following the conversation but let's talk about this issue of power shift you've heard Dr Baba Ahmed talking about the fact that we need a Nigerian president and it doesn't matter where he comes from that all that matters is someone who's able to lead the country in the right direction what are your thoughts? We've been in for about 45 years and the zoning became in place right from Second Republic and because of the enormity of the country because of the number of ethnic groups and because there is need for inclusiveness and because even the constitution says at some point the grand constitution of the Federal Republic I can't remember the section now if you are giving me some notice I would have quoted it that the federal government should do business in a second way that all parts of the country have been giving a sense of belonging that is silent zoning how do you do it? So it has been brought north south and then in the two zones you cannot do micro zoning that is how it has been but some people say that we are developing and we should get to a point where we should go for consensus but I do not think that that is the best for us now because there could be a case where there are competing competencies we are looking for the best person to rule this country and capacity is involved honesty is involved a track record is involved if you put all of this together you might have some three four people in one party that have the same qualifications so where do you go from there? in NPN time we had it very easy it is your turn so you now go into your zone and produce the candidate from the party for the general elections now, right now the major parties in the country PPP and APC are watching each other they shift dates up and down they want to know who is their first to produce a candidate so that they can use that to set their own program PPP is going for convention on Saturday while APC is on its coming later so whoever is produced by PPP will now to a large extent determine what APC will do that is my reading of the situation it makes me wonder because you painted a clear picture of what you think the political parties are doing so I want to ask what do you think is at the core of this aside from the fact that these parties want to win I am sure that every political party out there wants to win but then where does the avid Nigerian come in because I want again to go back to what Mr. Kimbaba Ahmed said Nigerians put their trust in President Bahari and you talked about also looking at the track record of a person Nigerians judged President Jonathan and the track record they hoped and trusted that he would be honest in fighting corruption in putting an end to the terrorism that we're actually faced with and also to give us employment as he said because he campaigned on these three things but here we are in the seventh year of his presidency we really can't say that he's been able to do that for us so again we see a lot of these men who are saying they would do this, they would do that does track record alone help us to pick the people that we want to pick again the avid Nigerian is faced with all of these candidates and not necessarily knowing who he or she might pick being that we're not involved in the picking the delegates are the ones who pick these candidates for elections so we're only at the mercy of whoever the party picks but then it looks like a game of chess for these parties where does the avid Nigerian come and especially those who are asking for zoning well I agree with you that Burani was elected in the business of a track record but that is not what it's turning out to be the country is in a mess and so that is why I did not call track record alone I named three other standards there is and talked about competence a leader for this country must be a competent manager of affairs and then he should be honest and have fear of God or Allah so that he can take this country to the best level, not next level and therefore think that the combination of qualifications because if you look at the qualifications there are also these qualifications these things have to be properly positioned so that this time around we can get it right the only thing that is not very clear now is what consensus would take us to we will produce the best person I think it's another experiment that is common even though at this age of a country we are supposed to stop experimenting and go for ground rules that are constant why Clinton said the other day that he came to the country he said Nigeria should build strong institutions not strong men and I said I do interesting I want to go back to Dr. Ababa Ahmed Dr. Ahmed we see lately the news has been talking about delegates within parties and we have seen a lot of people have termed these delegates as you know the guys who smiled to the bank after each of these primaries again how how much hope do we have in these delegates to pick the people who are right for the position to be flag wearers of political parties as opposed to who gives or who pays the most money I have I'm afraid I'm going to say something that I think Nigeria is still having broken up to I think that we don't realize that the nation and our entire history as a whole country has not become a victim of a particular class of politicians who know how to tweak us who have created themselves into a ruling class they just can keep simply recycling themselves recycling the system exploiting its weaknesses getting us to fight each other and just simply replacing each other I'm playing a game with our with our lives, with our welfare with our security, with our our love for each other and for the future of our children nothing really substantive has changed in this country PDP has been in power from 1999 until 2015 APC took over now if you look into APC you are likely to find that about 6 to 70% of the people in APC were actually PDP people in the past if you go back to PDP you are likely to find a lot of APC people who have defected there basically Nigerians are captive of two parties that recognize the fact that they can only retain power if one they create enemies out of all of us they are creating all this business that it's us, it's us, it's us there is really nothing absolutely no difference between the poor man in Oka and the poor man in Gombe that is the honest truth and yet they will tell you if you have an evil president then every problem that the evil have I'm only using the evil as an example this business of ours is pervasive everywhere including others they will tell you that northern president is going to protect northern interests and we ask a question which northern interests is it the bandits, the kidnappers the surgeons that are going on so you need to understand and Nigerians need to understand we have become captives of a game that is being played by the people who are in two camps PDP and APC and the issue that Eurasia the corruption involved in the way they run their parties the delegate system it's exactly the way they've been doing this since 1999 it's only getting the country worse a handful of people, literally a handful of people decide who becomes candidate then they line us up fill us up with venomous propaganda regionalism about ethnicity about faith and then we go home vote for either of them I'm praying one day before I die I would see in Nigeria where the masses you and I the ordinary people who have a lot to share, we're poor, we're insecure we're desperate, our children are losing faith in this country they're either leaving the country or they're leaving honest lives I hope to go to wake up and realize that we've actually been victims of a game of a ruling class which is what they are, they are in PDP, they are in APC and what is important is why do we need to believe that the best Nigerians can only come from these two parties they are just political parties why don't we look outside these two parties there are other parties and quite likely to feel better candidates there are not producing leaders unless you spend billions and billions and billions delegates and all these things anybody who spends 10 billion 20 billion are anybody and I say anybody just to convince a handful of delegates to give him or her a ticket I'm telling you that president is going to steal our commonwealths he's not going to become our president he's going to become a president for himself so we need to break the stranglehold of these two parties around us if we don't do that all this business is our turn and you have to go through an old antiquated and discredited system of delegates that's why president O'Hara refused to agree to indirect primaries that's why they refuse to tinker with the electoral process okay quickly because we're almost out of time I'm coming to you now as we wrap up this conversation how do we blur these lines that are dividing us because the average person will tell you that Nigeria is divided along ethnic and religious lines and now politics has been introduced into it and it's deepening the more and just like the doctor has said how do we do this within ourselves because this painted a picture saying that the political parties are the problem so if a handful of us understand this how does that same handful help the larger majority to begin to look within and start looking at ways that we can better the loss of Nigeria how do we go about that well I see my brother wishing he's alive talking so much because many of the people is talking to our death they are very deaf and I tell you that whichever way you look at it if you see political parties are the problem who are the people in the political parties are they not the same Nigeria now those political parties that we cast get a product of the society now what I think that we need to look at properly is the reorganization of the political system there are no solid parties there are no ideologies you cannot distinguish one from the other they produce people that do not even know their own party constitution and the manifesto of their own party so the political parties have to be popular reformed like the other day I was asking the question when they come with all these millions to buy forms and the parties at that point are saying that you have not been paying dues where is the system that allowed a member of a party to pay monthly dues whereas in the membership card there's columns there are 12 columns you're supposed to be paying your fees that the parties need the organization and if the religious and ethnic thing will not disappear in a hurry will not disappear in a hurry but when we are able to produce a strong a leader that loves the country not loves the party only the party comes from and tries to provide a level playing ground because what is even about ethnicity is that somebody from somewhere because he is president everything must go to the side that is what causes the problem we need a leader that must provide a level playing ground make sure that they stare to all ok well unfortunately the time is not on our side I want to say thank you to Dr Kim Baba Ahmed he is of the Northern Elders Forum and of course we have been speaking also with Chief Thomsen Okurati he is of the Bayelsa Elders Forum thank you so much gentlemen it's been a pleasure well thank you all for staying with us we'll take a short break when we return we'll be talking with Professor Patutomi as he talks to us about the third force and the merger table party stay with us