 Good evening everybody. So how was the first day of Defcon with you guys? You enjoyed it? Like it? Everyone is pretty much very tired so that's Defcon. So guys we have last talk of the day before we have contest briefing right. So we have Mike and Ron and they will be presenting Cryptocurrency Security Standard CCSS. So here we have Mike and Ron. Thanks Ajit. Yeah you know what they say, save the best for last right. Thanks everyone for staying a little bit later for for this talk. I promise it will not be very technical. We're not going to tax your brains. It'll be it's just an overview of what the CCSS is so that you're able to understand the goals of it and you can research it on your own time if you want to learn more. Yeah yeah so I'm Ron Stoner. I'm a security engineer at Shapeshift hoping to keep everybody's accounts safe while you do your crypto. I'm also the curator of the CCSS exam. So we're going to talk about the CCSS today. We have some exciting things also as a result of that. I run my own consulting firm and you can find me on Twitter at Forward Secrecy. And I'm Michael Perklin. I'm the chief information security officer at Shapeshift. I work with Ron. Also I'm the president of C4 which is the nonprofit organization that spent all the time with a variety of companies to pull all the the data together to create the CCSS and to publish it in an open way so that all of you are able to use it without any restrictions for your own work. I also run a contest here at DEFCON called Coindroids which is the world's first blockchain battle game and it's been running here at DEFCON for five years now and it's pretty interesting. So a quick note about C4. C4 is a nonprofit organization that deals with measurements and standards. Our first project was the CBP certified Bitcoin professional which is for people and our second project was the CCSS which I'll be talking about today which is for systems. It's been running now for six years and we've got some pretty good board members including Vitalik Buterin, Andres Antonopoulos, Pamela Morgan and Joshua McDougal. The CBP which is what I mentioned is the world's first certification related to Bitcoin or blockchains. It's a basically how this was formed was we recognized that there was a need in the industry for everybody who didn't know what Bitcoin was to be able to identify somebody who did know Bitcoin. When we started C4 we realized that while I know what Bitcoin is and if I'm interviewing somebody I can ask them pointed questions and I can tell if they actually understand Bitcoin or if they're just repeating a news headline and they don't quite understand what a Bitcoin is but I'm already knowledgeable about Bitcoin so it's easy for me to identify knowledge and others but there are so many hiring managers, presidents, CEOs who know that they need someone who understands Bitcoin on their team but they don't know the first question to ask them in the interview. This problem has been solved many times before in a variety of industries like in accounting they have the certified professional accountant designation the CPA. These types of certifications have meaning for HR just to make sure that they are interviewing the right candidates and we realized that there was no such animal for Bitcoin so we decided to make it. Can you talk the talk and can you walk the walk? While the CBP was the first project we did which is related to people measuring a person's knowledge to make sure that they meet the minimum bar for understanding how to use Bitcoin safely. The CCSS is much different. The CCSS is for information systems for a vault that you've created for your enterprise or for any other system that ends up holding Bitcoin. Yeah so when we're talking about the CCSS we're talking about security standard so we've seen a bunch of different security standards throughout industries over time and in crypto we have CCSS it's providing clear security guidance it's providing a framework it's providing security controls that information systems can adapt into their into their system and it's free for everybody to use. Why do we need it? We want to instill confidence in customers and people using these systems. There's a lot of fly by night operations in crypto you guys have seen the news articles you've seen funds go missing everybody's kind of doing it their own different way and there's not really a good standardization for this. So we can see that you know with these different companies mount gox coinbase a lot of these companies were wrapped up with hacks and loss of funds unfortunately because they weren't following proper security standard and procedures or they weren't hacked or they weren't hacked because they were following the proper procedures there was everybody was sort of doing it their own way. Yeah as we said before when you're looking at things like doing business with people that are processing credit card companies you look for PCI when you're talking about your medical data you want to see that HIPAA on it right and we know that that may not be the be all end all but they're protecting your data they're taking the steps they're doing things correct within a standard to make sure that your information and your stuff is safe. We have things like ISO 27001 but when it comes to currency what do we have crypto currency? So every industry has a standard and we're trying to fulfill that need. So now that you have an idea of what the CCSS is let me reinforce what the CCSS is not. The CCSS is not a replacement for ISO 27001 or for traditional cyber security. You still have to worry about you know malware you have to worry about insider threats you have to worry about all that stuff. The CCSS focuses razor sharp on the on the keys themselves how are the keys generated how are they used how are they stored and how are they decommissioned after use right additionally who's accessing them what are they doing with things like that. So when we get into CCSS we know security isn't just tech. Security is all encompassing right it's a whole bunch of different domains it's a whole bunch of different systems within itself if all you're doing is installing host intrusion detection and calling it a day you're not doing it correctly right so when we get into information systems we're talking about all these different domains with hardware with software with all of your procedures with your policies are those things being cut up to date are they being tested who has awareness of those policies or if x employee leaves an information system is that knowledge gone. And all five of these things they are they work together like a chain and you're only as strong as your weakest link you could have the best hardware ever you could have the most advanced software you know you totally patch with everything but if your standard procedure is to write down a password and put it as a sticky note on your monitor it doesn't matter how much tech you have or what encryption algorithms you're using you're you're gonna fuck it up. So the CCSS looks at an entire information system as a whole which is all five of these areas all combined. Does anybody know where the weak chain is in this picture? Yeah nice nice joke. So when we get into the CCSS we get into 10 overall aspects that we're talking about here and as Michael said it's very heavy on keys with usage storage how those keys are handed off who has access to them but then we get into other things that people may not be thinking about like your data sanitization policy so DSP is a big one where all the corporations say you know we've got these policies and we're doing all this stuff but when you dumpster die them you find out that may not be the actual case. Yeah and there are 33 separate controls that fit into these 10 different aspects we're going to give an overview of each of these 10 aspects and what is covered in them we're not going to get into too much detail because this is a fairly high level talk if you do have any questions specifically about some of these there's definitely going to be some time at the end and of course all this is published free open source online. The CCSS has three different levels and they are additive there's level one level two and level three whereas level three would be the highest level one is is the lowest but where level one is the lowest that doesn't mean that that is poor security it's actually great security level two is even better security and level three is paranoid to my knowledge no system out there meets level three security but that's fine they don't necessarily have to I've said this many times before and I'll say it again any system that is certified level two I believe would not be able to have the funds exfiltrated now I'm not saying that they won't be able to get hacked they could still definitely get hacked but a successful hack would not be able to pull any of the funds out of a system if it is level two compliant we'll get into a little bit the details of level one two and three but as a as a high level the next slide shows sort of the the chain model if you're to take a look at all 10 of these areas now across the top you can see level one two or three if this is a an example checklist for ACME exchange company now if ACME exchange company the way that they generate their seeds are compliant with level one they don't do a compliant with level two or level three but they are still secure with level one but the way that they create their wallets actually does reach level three and you can see some of the differences here this system would be graded as level one because that is the one commonality all of these boxes would have to be in level two in order for the system to be compliant with level two and similar for level three so it's it's important to look at the system as a whole to understand how all of these things are individually graded in order to apply a grade to the overall system and that overall grade is the lowest common denominator out of everything and as Michael said even with level one some people think level one's bad but if I was looking to do business or move my funds to an information system that was level one certified I know that they're checking off all those boxes or level one compliant I know they're checking off those boxes they've done proper procedures with their keys I can more trust that information system that somebody that's not compliant with any of these controls and actually before we jump in to each of these in a little bit more detail one thing I want to say is how the ccss was compiled so in in 2012 and 2013 c4 contacted as many exchanges as we could to understand more details of any of the hacks that occurred and we gathered a whole bunch of data from security professionals all over the world and then we started organizing it why was this exchange hacked here why was that exchange hacked here why is this exchange not hacked and we identified the commonalities which allowed us to group them together into these 10 aspects so it was through a lot of data analysis that the volunteers at c4 and the companies that submitted data we all work together to pull them together like this and with no further ado let's jump into each of these 10 aspects in a little bit more detail so the first one we're going to tackle is key c generation and probably one of the most important parts of a cryptocurrency information system you can have everything secure but if the person that generated your keys has a copy of that private key or seat at home you're screwed at that point so when we get into key c generation we're talking about things like was the key and seed issued by another actor was it created with a compliant d rbg deterministic random bit generator so when you get into the very fine technical details of randomness and pseudo randomness that can have some far-reaching effects on your business right in your information system depending on on how those keys were rolled and what they were rolled with we also talk about things like wallet creation um what was being used when that while it was created were unique addresses being used for the uh ultra paranoid level three side of security um as you can see level one doesn't have any controls here listed for uh for wallet creation but level two and three does so if you were looking at a compliant level one system you would know that they may not or may have done some things with this control um but depending on how they've done it they they can certify different different levels one two or three based off of how those wallets were created and for those of you who are here at the in the previous talk where mila went through the the various algorithms that make up bitcoin um uh that's denoted here where uh bitcoin is quantum safe as long as you are always using a brand new address uh now you can still use use bitcoin uh while while reusing an address uh and and uh keeping to you pardon me um while you can still use bitcoin safely while we're using an address the ultra paranoid people will always make sure they're always using a new address just uh to make sure that they're quantum safe there is no known attack today that uh can reverse a a private key uh from the public key however uh if you want to be paranoid you should always be using unique addresses and that's why that's a level um three control when we're talking about keys we're also talking about the geographic distribution of the keys um where do those keys live is it in single location multiple locations when we get into this we're talking about things we're looking at business continuity and disaster recovery or uh if a key's lost or uh access to a wallet is lost is it in another location that you can get access to and either get access to those funds or do what you need to do in those in those times so we've got generated keys and we're generating them securely but how are we storing them so we've got different controls here for things like backup keys um one that people don't really think about is are you storing your keys encrypted so everybody might have their backup of their key and they're safe or in their desk drawer but when somebody gets access to it do they have another step that they have to take to get access to that key material or do they just then have raw keys that they can take and start using at that point we also look for things like does the backup key have a tamper evidence seal um however you want to achieve that that's fine as long as there's some evidence to say this key's been accessed or somebody else has had access to this in the last time that I've had that um and as you can see when we get to one to three those controls get a little bit more paranoid with backing them up with access controls um even encrypting backup keys which people don't think about they always think about encrypting the primary key after they see the information on the previous slide but they never think about their backups or you know different copies of those keys they have in other locations continuing on the lifecycle of a key we went through how the key was created and then how the key was stored let's jump into how the key is used so there are a variety controls in this section including um how many factors are required to access the key can anybody just get it or do I need to have um a username and a password and maybe a 2fa code in order to use use the key um are the keys used in a trust environment or are you uh uh signing something in a Starbucks off of an unsecure wi-fi um who gets to use those keys and what checks do you do on them whoever is going to be interacting with your keys has an opportunity to to make a copy of the key and use it in an unauthorized way so before you give them access to your key what checks are you doing to make sure that you want them to have access to your keys and are they even the the right person um maybe they started at your company with a fake name or or something like that so I mean these are small checks but they're definitely important before you give access to these people a few more for key usage um background checks do they have a history of of credit risk um while their personal finances have nothing to do with your business um if they uh if they're constantly in debt and they're constantly having a difficulty making their own ends meet they're more likely to find money another way um whereas the opposite is true if they're not um now when the key is used to sign something what kind of uh double checks are you doing to make sure you're sending to the to the right destination address and are you sending the right amount um if it's a multi-sig system are those multiple keys brought together on a single device or are the multiple keys used independently on separate devices there have been a number of hacks of a multi-sig system where a Trojan made its way onto the if the final signing system the the system where multiple separate keys for multiple separate key holders are brought together that's not the safest way to do it making sure that each key is kept separate is important and as part of every digital signature I believe Mila also talked about this in her last talk as part of every single digital signature there is a random number that is used how is that random number derived there have been cases where the same number has been used for multiple signatures which can allow someone to uh re re compute the original private key and staying with keys we're going to get into how they're granted and revoked because this is an important part of the process itself so we have controls in place for um is there actual grant and revocation procedures created um who's knowledgeable on the staff with those procedures or does it just sit in a uh a document repository somewhere that you know they've checked off the box saying this policy has been created but nobody ever looks at it nobody ever uses it and nobody knows how to enact it when the time comes um we also look for things like authenticated requests over authenticated communication channels um so this gets interesting because we get into the concept of uh of strong authentication and making sure that you know who you're speaking with verifying them over different ways not just getting a slack message or an sms message and trusting that this person has said yes sign this transaction and send 10 000 bitcoin to this address right we're going to verify that before we do that um and then looking for things like audit trails with employee sign-offs for all of these actions so not only are the steps being taken and are they being followed but are we taking down audit trails so that if there is an issue we can go back and find out where there was a problem or where something went wrong this is one of my favorite ones as a security engineer the key compromise protocol kcp so the shit hits the fan and we need to do something um we want to see that uh a key or a key compromise protocol exists number one have people thought about this have they built a system to take care of this or a policy or procedure um do they have staff that are uh knowledgeable with key compromise uh policies uh are they comfortable running that type of that type of procedure if they need to go in and revoke keys that control x amount of dollars or x amount of funds and for those who don't know what we mean by a key compromise protocol uh it's basically a script of what you would do the moment you believe maybe a key might be compromised by spending the time to think about all this beforehand uh when you're in a rush situation you don't you don't need to worry about making mistakes because you just follow the script step one step two step three and now all the all the keys are properly replaced uh moving on there there are only a few more uh aspects and then we'll open up to questions uh security audits the ccss defines a couple of requirements for security audits namely that they are done regularly um uh it's not really much more to to say about this one um there are oh no i was gonna add on to that but um one thing that we haven't really talked about that's important to see on this slide is the uncertified status um so you can see here in red no proof of security for security audits um i i think we all know of places that claim they're secure but when it comes down to it you want to see the audit information there's nothing there right they've never done a pen test they've never done vulnerability scans or code review um with that uncertified status you could be level three across the board on everything else and if you're uncertified on one of these controls you're not going to be compliant with the ccss because if michael said you're only as strong as your weakest link and in this example this would be the weakest link um approaching the end now um the data sanitization policy keys have to be stored somewhere when when they are uh in use likely on a hard drive of some kind of uh of a server or um maybe they're on uh on a cold storage device uh some laptop that has been air gapped um the having a data sanitization policy uh that details how you're going to scrub the data from those devices when those devices reach end of life is mandatory otherwise anybody who finds your old laptop hard drive in a dumpster somewhere they could in theory get your keys back yeah this man loves dumpster diving um and it's also important to have an audit trail of uh what has been uh sanitized and when although that is more of a paranoid level uh control um next is proof of reserve uh there are a variety of ways that companies implement proof of reserves uh oftentimes just publishing a report saying hey uh here here's all the here's all the crypto we have uh the the controls uh mostly mandate that there is some way to prove uh control however uh the the best way is when the blockchain itself uh can prove it for you by publishing all the addresses that your system uses to the users of your system now your users are able to independently validate that those coins really are there at those addresses instead of trusting uh the entity that just says yes we have a thousand bitcoin here oh but no we're not going to give you the specific addresses of where all those are are held uh it removes all trust and if we look at level three the question may come up of um what happens with information systems that don't hold funds anymore uh non custodial exchanges which i happen to be a big fan of um in those instances um they would comply with level three because there's no funds stored there's no need to actually list the proof of reserve because they're not holding anything on behalf of uh behalf of customers or systems at that point and then we get into audit logging so we've talked about keys we've talked about key holders we've talked about verifying identities and making sure people can be trusted and are following the pop proper policies and procedures uh but we need to make sure that again audit logs exist for all these actions in the system um level one we're logging some actions level two we're logging everything for user and admin controls uh and the same for level three so as you can see some level two controls are good enough to meet level three requirements um outside of a full audit trail existing for user and admin uh actions i don't know what else you could could add in there for audit logging to uh to make it more secure and then we also want to see backups of our audit logs so it's great if you're running your server and everything's uh fine but then somebody goes in and wipes it or you have a disaster event are you keeping your logs off site uh do you have bcdr policies and procedures in place business continuity uh for for audit logging information so that is the ccss in a nutshell there are 36 individual controls that are spread across 10 different aspects or 10 different categories um and all of them need to be uh graded individually and the lowest common denominator will be the overall rank of that information system uh as far as using the ccss the standard is published online for free for anybody to use without need for royalties and the source for the standard is published on github if you're interested in in reading about it i encourage you to visit cryptoconsortium.org and if you are passionate about security like ron and i are we encourage you to to get involved we have a handy empty matrix just like that acme checklist uh you can grab that that checklist uh off of the the c4 website and i encourage you to try to assess yourself uh think critically about each of the different controls and and see where your system falls what's great about measuring your your system like this is um once it's done you'll see exactly where you have an opportunity to improve the security of your system um we are always looking for people to uh to submit feedback on the standard either um posting comments on github or posting issues or posting uh pull requests if you feel that you could improve it we'd love to hear from you um c4 is a volunteer run organization and if you want to volunteer your time and your security knowledge we'd be happy to uh to take it as well as becoming a part of a never-growing uh compliance standard in cryptocurrency last thing i'll i'll talk about is the upcoming blockchain training conference now uh the coupon code you see on on screen will will save you 10 off the ticket price and if you visit the coin druids booth in the contest area you can get another coupon code for another 10 off giving you a combined 20 off of the ticket price at the blockchain training conference this is the first time c4 is going to be having a full day workshop on the ccss to train you or or anybody that you'd like to to send on your behalf on how to use the ccss in real world scenarios uh it's taught by by ron right here um who also wrote the ccss a exam uh the goal of this bootcamp is to prepare the next generation of auditors on using these standards to assess a system and to guide their clients on improving their security uh with that let's open it up to questions i've got some some swag for some uh some good good questions if uh if you have them you sir had your your first uh the question was how do you detect that a key has become compromised uh or might be compromised that that's a great question and there unfortunately is no silver bullet like everything in security there is no silver bullet that uh that can solve that um there are a variety of ways that you you could um try to detect things such as um canary payments or sorry i guess canary addresses uh putting small amounts of funds on certain keys that are available on servers and watching for when those funds move uh during your normal course of business those funds should never move but the moment that they have moved it could indicate compromise of that system um uh also um the key compromise uh protocol that we talked about doesn't only cover known compromise it also covers suspected compromise if one of the key holders suddenly becomes unavailable for for 24 hours and all attempts of contacting them have failed their family doesn't know where they are either um it's possible that they could have been kidnapped uh it's possible that uh god forbid they may no longer be around um in any of these cases if you suspect that either the key or the key holder may be compromised the the key compromise protocol should be enacted as if they were compromised either way uh it's always better to um to proactively uh move all the funds to new keys when you think there might be a problem than to hope and it doesn't work out uh the the the question was uh does the ccss have a standard for uh detection uh no but because the because every information system is different uh the way that you would detect a actual compromise or a possible compromise would be different for every standard uh if you have a a good way of of writing an aspect that could cover that for a variety of different information systems i'd i'd love to add something like that to the ccss uh if you want to um visit github and submit that do you want to take the next question ron yeah um so the question was when you're looking at reviewing things like the random number generator the drbg the deterministic random bit generator um how far do you go when you're looking at that control are you looking at things like source code and i think it really depends on the implementation so um there's a variety of ways to do entropy in rng where people could be rolling dice and cards and then putting that into a script and spitting out some keys based off of calculations they could be using a hardware device that's measuring the difference in electronic current um so it really depends on the implementation i think when you you get into that aspect you do look at how did you roll them what did you use did you use your own code did you use something you pulled off github did you use a device um and at that point it's a lot easier to drill down and determine where does this fit level one level two level three or um uncertified and tad to ron's answer um the ccss uh requires drbgs to be compliant with a variety of uh well known and globally globally accepted standards specifically nist uh 800 a 60 i think it's written on here somewhere um if the yeah he'll pop it up but uh if if the drbg is compliant with the nist there it is sp 890 a um uh then uh it would be a compliant drbg uh if you're using let's say electrum to uh generate your keys um uh the the the source code of electrum should be looked at to make sure that it's not using its own method of uh of random generation and it is calling a well-known uh prng and then it should also look at how that prng is being seated once we know that electrum is using a well-known prng that is compliant then uh then we know that that one would be certified did that answer your question yeah perfect but uh dual e cdr bg i'm sorry could you ask that question again so easy the the comment was that uh even nist compliant drbgs uh have been uh known to be compromised and you know what security is always evolving uh as long as we're doing the doing your best to be up to date with with the the current best practices then we know that we're doing our best but we can't uh protect against unknowns that haven't even been uh invented yet uh let's go with uh red shirt how useful is the ccss to non custodial wallets was the question uh it's a great question um so a non custodial system let's say uh a a dex a decentralized exchange uh the exchange itself doesn't store uh funds on their own uh dex's match make uh someone who is selling one token and somebody who is selling another token so uh the dex itself actually can't be certified by the ccss because that system doesn't actually store funds each user each participant of the system would be required to safeguard their own keys for for their own funds on that side does that answer your question perfect miss in the back so the question was um and that was a long one uh but please correct me if i get the question um uh incorrect but uh how would risk managers use the ccss to actually i'm sorry could you repeat the question gotcha so how does the ccss map to other standards or other um uh systems of control um uh my answer would be again that it is uh a separate uh set most of the existing standards that are out there uh relate to uh one aspect or another for example the pc i uh compliance relates to storing of credit card information but only credit card information uh HIPAA relates to storing of healthcare information the ccss is razor focused only on the storing of private keys now uh because both pc i and HIPAA have been around for so long uh it's common knowledge for for board members to say oh are you HIPAA compliant yes are you uh uh PCI compliant uh it's our hope that through the development of the standard and the regular curation of the standard that uh being ccss compliant tomorrow will be as as common knowledge as being PCI stand uh compliant is today and to just add on to that um i think for anybody that's trying to make a play to a board or anything like that all you have to do is link them and show them all the different hacks and loss of funds and cryptocurrency information systems that have happened even within the past few months right um they they like dollar figures and showing them dollar figures and making it real world i i think always brings a full circle and one one other thing i'll uh i'll add to that is um the uh a variety of exchanges already list uh their uh voluntary compliance with the ccss standard if you dig into their frequently asked questions um so a lot of exchanges are already using this and there have been a a number of um uh so a number of regulations from a few different jurisdictions that have already referenced the ccss in in the laws um most notably in um in bermuda uh they recently uh passed um a i don't know if it's a if it's an act or uh i apologize i'm not a lawyer um but uh it was referenced in their um uh in their laws that any any company that is going to be uh operating the cryptocurrency space should be compliant with at least ccss level one also in wyoming uh right here in the united states uh the ccss was referenced in the recent blockchain laws there as well so uh the standard is already starting to be adopted by lawmakers worldwide and um uh anything that we can do to help these people who don't understand tech to at least get a nice little checkbox uh i i think is a win for all of us mr and the black shirt so uh summary of the question please correct me if i get it uh wrong is um how do you actually ensure that people are using the standard the thorough standard and they're not just um uh i guess uh making a bunch of check marks without doing it and you know what i don't know of any way that you can um uh if an auditor goes in and just issues a report and they sign their name on it and it says hey you're everything's perfect um if they want to put their reputation on the line to make a lie there's nothing that i don't think anybody can do to stop that um uh maybe having two independent auditors uh perform the same checks and if you see any inconsistencies between the two that might make some progress in doing that but even still uh just like just as these those one person could could lie on a report two people could could lie on a report um if you can think of any way uh to enforce um i guess uh the integrity of uh of these people's reputation i'm all ears i think too it comes down to um if a business says they're hip a compliant right and they've checked off all those boxes and then they have a breach in your medical data gets out there everyone's going to look at that and say well you aren't you weren't actually hip a compliant right you weren't following those those standards and procedures you you fleece the auditor you just check the box off to check the box off and i think at that point that's on the business right from a little litigation standpoint and everything in a reputation standpoint um so we would hope that businesses wouldn't do that but having the auditors in the pipeline definitely helps with the process to validate some of those controls and say well no your kcp is two lines on a word document it's not an actual procedure that anybody can follow you know step a to z so any other questions gray shirt have third party audits been completed yes um i i'm aware of at least three consulting firms that have used the ccss when uh grading the security of their of their clients work i only know of this because um c4 was was reached out to by these uh these firms uh just double checking um some minutiae in in the standard to make sure that they were they're using it correctly um and now that the the now the c4 is planning on launching the auditor certification uh later this year um these auditors who are already doing doing doing this this type of work to see if uh if a system is compliant uh these auditors can become certified and they'll be able to say that not only do i believe this to be compliant i am bestowing the certification on that uh on that system uh right now uh because it's a uh it's an open system uh the best anybody can say is i believe i am compliant with it or i believe he is compliant with it but no there are no uh exchanges there are no systems that are certified compliant once we have the auditors that are properly trained uh and we know that they understand the uh the standard thoroughly their word will be their bond um yeah sure the acme uh slide yeah it's a little bit farther it's doing the build yeah patience one more or two more there we go oh but the yeah the ten the tenor listed here so any other questions so the question was uh are there any plans to expand this from an auditor focused thing to more of a qualitative uh focused standard um it it's my belief that in order for any auditor to be effective they have to do a qualitative assessment sure there um there are some quantitative pieces to it making sure that this is done enumerating you know how many keys are in the system some of those will be quantitative but uh those numbers don't really mean anything unless you put them in context just because there is a multi-six system that is three of five doesn't suddenly mean that it is good um like the the picture of of the chain it it's everything around the ecosystem of those keys that make it a secure system um auditors need to make sure that they look at all aspects of the information system not just the the quantitative part in order to make a accurate assessment edgy um depending on the uh the yeah thank you the um level that you're going for so some people may say we can never be level two or level three or um i think let me see in the instance where yeah so for level one you do need to have backup keys right so we want to see that for bt dr um we want to protect it from environmental damage and then we want that primary key to be stored with strong encryption across the board now when you get into backup keys um we're starting to get into the more paranoid levels of security right really uh really tight secure systems where there as michael said level two that we shouldn't see any any loss of funds or anything like that um but at that point you're you're starting to get to the paranoid level of security now we are question was about backup keys of the backup keys only for level three uh so um uh every system that i've ever worked with i always recommend that you do not encrypt the backup key because of that exact problem where do you store the decryption key for the backups um however there are there are some companies that feel more comfortable knowing that even their backups are encrypted um i would advise those those people to make sure that those um decryption keys are stored equally secure but uh somebody said turtles all the way down and i definitely think that that applies here uh which is one of the reasons why i personally um don't like systems that encrypt the backup keys because if the person who knows where that decryption key is uh dies or passes away how do the surviving uh operators of the system get that uh i i said earlier that i i believe uh a system that is level two compliant uh can never have the funds stolen even if they are hacked uh and i i i stick by that yes uh the question is how do you feel about social key recovery do you want to take this one or should i what do you mean by social uh isn't that like yeah so so social key recovery um involves sharding a key into let's say three of five and then you give each of these five pieces to five people that you know and trust uh if something ever happens to you any three of these five friends or family members can get together to reconstitute the the key um in my opinion that's just a backup mechanism whether you you etch the key on steel and put it in in in a safe or you shard the key and you divide it amongst um key custodians uh either way you're backing up the key um i i definitely would think that that would be compliant with the ccss yes sir the question was um at what quantity of funds um would you recommend a certain level of uh of compliance with the ccss uh and my answer would be i can't answer that for you every business is different does 10 million represent a uh a fraction of your daily volume or does 10 million represent like the the cumulative sum of of you know years worth of work uh to your business 10 million um could mean something totally different than to somebody else's business um my advice would be uh take a look at your use case take a look at the funds that need to be secured and use your best judgment on on how to secure that yeah i i don't think there's like x number to say at this value you want to be doing business with a level two company or anything like that it's all all based more off of your own personal risk profile and what you're comfortable with um yeah i i believe you could yeah yeah if you're doing proper development processes and you're going through this checklist and checking off each of those boxes and getting into the controls in depth three person team could definitely be level one compliant they just um so we're level two yeah that's for level two and we're getting into things like multi multi signatures and stuff like that um to go back to your original question two with the 10 million let's say you have x amount and we're talking about cryptocurrency right so we're storing crypto on these information systems or processing crypto 10 million today could be 100 million tomorrow so if you're comfortable with x money on that at level one you know what's it going to be at level two and we're at the moon um level one requires uh or it doesn't have any requirement for multi-sig level one is a secure system with with single signatures um that would apply more to ethereum style um uh systems where there's only one key for that uh contract um multi-sig is level two and above um so you don't need to be level two uh sorry you don't need to have multi-sig in order to be compliant you can absolutely be compliant with level with one key that is all the time we have um if you do have any more questions uh maybe we can walk and talk back to uh the rest of the the conference area but thank you very much um coinbase for host for sponsoring this blockchain village thank you very much uh jeet and all the volunteers that that work with you for putting this together uh i i think it's great that we have a blockchain focused uh village at defcon and i'm thrilled to be here thank you thank you everybody