 Thanks for joining us at Think Tech Hawaii. And for those of you who are willing to and support Think Tech, this is fundraising time. Think Tech lives on its donations. It's truly appreciated. Anything that you're willing to put in, go to Think Tech Hawaii website, click the donate button and help us out. And today we have with us a returning for the first time since September, a retired Hawaii judge, Sandra Sims and author, working on her second book, Back to Vegas and other points that may or may not be disclosed in the course. Tina Patterson in Germantown, Maryland, mediator, arbitrator, business coach, consultant and master of many trades and also co-chair of the American Bar Association section of dispute resolutions, Women in Dispute Resolution Committee, which is one of our more active and more productive committees out there. They presented resolutions, directories and other things to really move the needle in diversity in dispute resolution and in law, which have both tended to lag behind a lot of the rest of the country and the professions, unfortunately. And Ben Davis, former chair of the American Bar Association section of dispute resolution and now professor, visiting professor at Washington and Lee School of Law and Professor Emeritus from the University of Toledo School of Law. Welcome all of you. Well, we're almost all the way through midterm, still waiting for a few house results, but basically the majorities and most of the positions have been determined. So Ben, where does that leave us? Where are we headed? Or do we even, can we even guess? Well, I had a couple of thoughts. One was much of the reporting on the election has been about the quote unquote absence of a red wave and what happened to the red wave and where's the red tsunami, et cetera. Even a lot of the little cartoons are all framed in that way. But the thing that bothered me is that that framing focuses on the red. My thing is that this was a blue wave, a very blue wave across America. Just think of all the deniers who did not get in. We saw some flips of state, both state houses in Michigan. You saw all five of the ballot initiatives on abortion. Abortion, they passed in Michigan, they passed in California, they passed in, I can't remember the third state. Even Kentucky. Even Kentucky, yeah. Yeah, well, Vermont. Vermont was the third one in terms of pro-choice and then Kentucky and Montana, they voted down the efforts in anti-choice. And so, that's a five for five. And so, that idea, at least to me, of let us change the conversation and think in terms of we are living a blue wave, which I think is gonna continue. And the second part of it is that there was a term used over the past few months and stops of this was row-vember. And row-vember was the term for this time. And I'm convinced that row-vember is what happened, what you saw, a row-nobby happened across this country. And that energy from people losing their rights and saying, this is not the way it's gonna be, that's the way I would frame it. There's some talk about people worried about democracy. And I respect that because when Pelosi's husband was hit, I could see how people would say, this is getting political violence crazy. And in the chaos, we can't have, but I thought the two things that really struck me the most were we had a blue wave or a row-nobby that happened. And that's the way we should think about it, going into the Georgia runoff and on for this next couple of years. And I just have to tell a joke, which is that somebody put up something that said that a runoff is not a perenting approach for Hershel Walker. Thank you very much. I'll be here all week. Okay. Ooh. I would stab, I'd say, ouch, ouch. Ooh. Ooh. So, there you go. Row-nobby and blue wave, that's me. Sandra, what's your take? I agree with him on pretty much all of that, but I saw something else or at least I sense something else. And that is the power of young people. Because I don't think there was any way to, at least in terms of how the media and fundants approached it, it didn't seem to be a way for them to even determine or to measure what that was gonna look like. I mean, we knew the young people were out there, but I don't think it was any, they didn't quite know how to gauge what's going on in their heads, except by maybe you'll see, you know, a march or protests and there were plenty of those. Part of it's too, because, you know, we're in a new, you know, I'm old school and stuff. And so I still have a phone here, but, you know, they don't have, a lot of young folks don't have these home phone numbers and landlines and stuff, which is where a lot of posters really start to call. And then even if they get your cell number and try to call you there, you know, they're from the generation that, I know my kid, they don't answer the phone if they don't know who it is. So you're not gonna get that and you're not gonna get the responses in the traditional way that we think of determining polls. That's gone. That's gone by way of, you know, all the other media and forums that are out there. I think back to the protests we had here in Honolulu, following George Floyd's death and George Floyd's murder, I should say. And there was a huge rally here in Honolulu over 10,000 young people for Black Lives Matter. And, you know, Black people are not a small portion of the population here in Honolulu. And that protest was organized by teenagers. And they did it via their media, you know, the Instagram and the TikTok and all the other stuff. That's how they organized it and all the different high schools and stuff. And they came together and I was just, and I thought to myself, my goodness gracious, we've got a whole generation out here that we don't even, I mean, we're not that we're not counting a man, but we can't read them like we can so-called read, you know, what Latinos are gonna do, what Blacks gonna do, what women are gonna do. We can't read them. And I like that. I like that. And they're asserting that leadership, they're asserting their positions. And this is a generation that, you know, doesn't take any crap. Yeah, and a couple of the points that you raised and you raised many that are really worth digging into and considering more and we've only got half hour to work with so we'll do what we can. But the one is that's the generation for whom reproductive choice is a present right in their life, in their face reality. Exactly. Looking at choices and consequences in a very immediate, very personal way. Exactly. And the second thing is that's also the generation that as you really accurately identified is the most subjected to the social media barrage as their news source, as their opinion source. And you've combined those two things which have been in conflict since at least 2016 where the social media has been pushing exactly what Ben talked about, the red wave, not just for the 2022 campaign, but for most of the last six years, if not all. Now you've got an entire generation that's basically saying, not with my life, you don't. Exactly. Exactly. Tina, what strikes you about what might have been somewhat unexpected or different or may tell us something about what happened in the midterms? Thank you, Chuck. I think a couple of things. I agree with the media attention regarding the lack of the red wave. And what I saw was that there, as far as social media is that there is a growing distaste for using social media to a webinar. And we're seeing it more so with young people. Yes, it's a media outlet, it's a way to get information but if it starts to be information that is going to be harmful or basically attempts to hurt someone, we're starting to see more pushback. And I think the younger people are taking the lead but others as well are saying, can you stop with the false narrative and putting forward these stories? It's thinking about speaker Pelosi's husband. There was a conversation. The governor of Virginia decided to make a comment regarding what happened to speaker Pelosi's husband. And it was very, I'll say it was very unkind. People not only spoke out but they were consistent and we're seeing this where you can't make comments that literally step away from civility. It's okay to have a different perspective but when your comments are harmful or hurtful, voters are reminding these elected officials, that's not acceptable and that's not the narrative we want to carry forward. I think we're also seeing people looking at the bigger picture. Yes, we're talking about reproductive rights but what else does this impact who I choose to marry, who I love? And it is generating some concerns, some fears, some call to action, although it's not been branded as such. So I'm seeing more of that where people are saying, Roe versus Wade and the overturning is just the tip of the iceberg. And we don't stop this now. This is gonna become a runaway train and we're certainly going to be talking about where do we live, who can we live with? And as I indicated earlier, who do we love? But I have been very pleased with this pushback on that narrative that you're putting forward. It's not appropriate, wishing that somebody be sent back home because their spouse has been harmed. That's not appropriate conversation. It's not. It's not. As a leader, the expectation is higher. And I'm glad to hear our young people saying it but I'm glad to see more of a ground swelling from voters overall that you're just saying, that's just not acceptable. Don't bring that forward. No, and those are great insights. So one of them raises a question. Do you think people connected what happened to Paul Pelosi, Nancy Pelosi's husband to the January 6th violence? Was it the logical outcome? The next step in the January, was that what the January 6th people were really intending to do if they got in there and got control? Well, if I could jump in on that, the guy when he got into the house was yelling, where's Nancy? And that's an immediate resonance with what was going on in January 6th, inescapable for anybody, you know? And I think that political violence aspect of that was brought very abruptly back to people that you can't ignore what you saw with your own eyes and what the chaos and the people behind the chaos want to have happen, I think is okay. It reminded me in a way of the governor's race in Arizona where Katie Hobbs did not debate Carrie Lake the whole time. And I remember Pundit saying that she was looking weak and all that. And she just came out with a little message where she said, well, people know who I am, people know who she is, they just got to decide they're gonna be adults. And I was like, she was really smart. I don't have to debate her, I'm serious, I'm an adult and she is who she is and it worked for her. I just thought that was really insightful by her as a candidate. You know? You want chaos? You want to actually run a country for everybody, you know? Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, Ben. And I was thinking of the same thing as like when you were tying the, what occurred in January 6th, even though there were these efforts to minimize it and make it like, oh, did nothing happen. But by that investigative panel bringing out so many of the details and the horrid sickening, disgusting details of what was taking place and what was done to the officers, how frightened and how they have the effect of, we're never trying to kill Pence. I mean, good Lord, the effect that it had on the representatives who were in, they were trapped, they were literally trapped. And I don't think it wasn't until we got a real strong sense, I mean, some of us thought that, but we got a real strong sense of what was occurring when the panel started talking about those things. And then when you see that, it's hard for people to just sit back, oh, no, no, that was nothing. Oh, yeah, that was not a nothing. I mean, this affected people and deep people die. And then when the Pelosi, when our husband was attacked and we've come back to that, I think you're right. Ben, it's like people were just starting to say, wait a minute, this, we've gone too far. We've gone too far. This is not what we're about. There are issues that need to be determined in this country. We just sit here and argue about the election in 2020. There's stuff going on. There are things that we need to take care of. There's a world in crisis. And we're arguing about who did, was the election in 2020 still, and of course, it was not. So, and I think with those, they had those single issues. I think like Kerry Lake is a really good example of that because there was, at least to my knowledge, I don't know that she addressed any real issue other than what happened in the past or what she thinks her interpretation of what happened in the past. People in that concern, they wanna prepare for what's happening now. We gotta take care of our communities, our children, our schools, our, you know, our world. We got bigger fish to fry than you guys grievances. I mean, that was another piece that I got at least maybe that's just my own personal thing, but I feel really strongly about that. And I know people that feel the same that come on now, we got stuff to do here. We don't have time for this foolishness. And then when you get terribly mean spirit about it and you're turning to violence, it's like, you know, I'm out of here, but just not doing this, you know. No, and those are really great points to bring out and bring up and understand. Hey, and they raise the question. Did what happen in the lead up to and the midterms and the aftermath of the midterms? It did those at least to some extent, effectively discredit the replacement theory, the, that whole set of Republican talking points that Trump and McCarthy and others, Robert Green Gates had been living off of for the last few years. I think it has. What's left of those? Yeah, Tina. I'll just say this quickly, because it's not specific answer to your question. I think it has, and I think it's going to impact the conversation regarding who becomes the next speaker of the House. Kevin McCarthy is not favored. He is, he's got to run just like everyone else. And it's partially because of these theories that he's been putting forward where the Republicans are saying, do we really want this narrative to come from our speaker? Not necessarily. Yes, Nancy could be representing the minority group, but Kevin, not so much. And I think we're seeing this where the distaste for carrying that narrative forward, people are distancing themselves. Some Republicans are saying, hold up, let's not talk about 2024. That's too far away. Right now we need to stabilize them. We got stuff to do. Well, I noticed today, Nancy Pelosi stepped down and said she's not going to run for speaker, which, and then she even mentioned about passing their torch to a different generation, which like, and following what you say, Tina, it's going to just change the conversation because much of their capital has been spent on, Republicans' capital has been spent on demonizing Nancy Pelosi. So you don't have that to do. You got to, if you put someone else up there, and I think she's extremely brilliant woman, Laura at Mercy, but she's like basically saying, you're not going to kick me around. I'm going to put someone else up here who's going to be talking about what we're going to do for the country. And you guys go after that person and see what you're going to do. And I think that's really what she's done is kind of thrown that down. It's like, okay, do you want to do something for the country? You just want to play games with me. And strategically that may be, and then we'll go straight to you, Ben, but strategically that may be a brilliant move because it moves the focus. Yeah, for 16 years, she's been the leader of the Democratic Party in the House, and including majority. And it's put the focus on the leadership and the direction of the choices. And on shifting the leadership, changing the leadership to people that are more in tune with and aligned with the real issues, the real values that voters have brought into play in the election. Yeah, Ben. Yeah, I agree 100% with what's been said. And I'm kind of reminded of those big waves you have off Hawaii where you see those surfers and those blue waves. And I just feel like a whole lot of cold water got blown on a lot of Republicans right now. Oh, yeah. Cold blue water got blown on. And the problem that they have is, they didn't have a platform in 2000. Far as I've seen, they don't have a platform. They don't. Except the classic Republican one, which is reduced taxes, right? That's all they got. And they got, and on all these issues, whether it's climate change or infrastructure or these fundamental rights issues, I mean, the only thing I saw some of these candidates on the Republican side do was kind of delete things from their website that they'd been saying before when they started to feel that row heat. But you didn't hear, you know, that's all I saw. I didn't see anybody saying, you know, stepping out of line. And the other thing is that, you know, I think it's Clyburn said that politics, the blood of politics is money, right? And if their donors are the same ones that have been before who are telling them this story that they need to say, I don't see how they get out of that box of being how they've been. And how they've been has been kind of like a little bit of chaos or a lot of chaos. A lot of chaos, a lot of chaos. And they've fomented chaos everywhere they, you know, they've just fomented chaos, except is it, yeah. And what if you flip that perspective on its head, Ben, instead of saying these Republican talking points are what the donors wanted to see them sell in advance, what if it were the Republicans going to their donors saying, we can sell in advance these talking points, they're going to serve your interests. And now they haven't. No, no, I was reading somewhere today where some of the following Trump's announcement that he's gonna run against some of the major donors for that were part of his campaign before that they're not doing, it's time to move on. So he's not gonna, you know, I mean, he may be out there and it may end up, it may very well be that that's, all the Republicans will be able to put up because he's just gonna be in the way of everything. And they just can't, they can't shake themselves of him unless he goes to jail. That's a really important point, you know, between Trump and DeSantis, do you see either one of those two letting go, giving up, deferring to the other? No. Unless one of them goes to jail. Right. So you got Youngin who's trying to come in, you know, and you got Aisa Hutchinson down in Arkansas come in. But, you know, the comment that I just make about, if you look across that group, right, is like, what are they gonna do for the country? I mean, one of them will be divisive and the other one will be, we're gonna bring people together, right? That's gonna be the two games. But I'm talking about the policy underneath. The only policy they have underneath is cut taxes. That's an old story. And, you know, cut Medicare, cut Medicaid, cut Social Security, all that, which is what Scott was running this is Republican Committee on. It's just like. You know, I mean, that's back to 1960s kind of a Republican policy, you know? And that's not for a modern world. And, oh yeah, well, that's the, what are we gonna not support Ukraine, you know? And all that stuff, you know? I mean, I'm like, that's not serious. It's not serious. Even if you're a nice guy, it's still not serious, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's like, what you got? So what's it gonna take for Kevin McCarthy to get 218 votes, not only to become Speaker of the House, but to get any legislation by? I don't know. Cause they're, cause we don't know what they stand for. I'm like with Ben, that we don't know what they stand for anything other than the tax cut. So if someone comes forth with something, they don't even, there doesn't seem to be like any sort of issue or policy like Ben has said that they've become known for and they're wanting the votes for that you're gonna get a majority of people in the country to vote for. I mean, it's great to do these Republican primaries cause you can, yeah, you can do that. But are you gonna appeal to a national electorate? And he didn't do it in 2020, he's certainly not gonna do it in 2024. Well, and Ben's points are really important one. Yeah. If the Republicans with the media and history and so many things on their side came out of the midterms the way they have losing the Senate and getting such a narrow majority in the House that their own factions may prevent them from being able to do any... Exactly, exactly. What's gonna happen in 2024? Where are we headed? Well, maybe I'm an optimist, okay? But my view is that the American people at least this time around showed that they weren't gonna get played. And I think that American people got an attitude which is they're not gonna get themselves played. They, you know, the old fool me once came on me, but fool me twice, you know? Or shame on you, shame on me, I got it all right. I just did the George Bush, whatever, but you know. But we get the point, we get the point. But you know what I mean? It's just, you know, I may be wrong. I mean, it's different places and different things, but you know, you got, I mean, I'm just not gonna do red state, blue state here, but I'm gonna do more sort of along the lines of how is it that you can live in a state and be the point of the poor states in the United States and you can vote against things that would help you to be better by voting for people who will keep you poor? I mean, that's a question to every American I see in every state that's down in the last 10 or so states on the list on everything, whether it's child mortality, literacy, education, poverty, whatever. It's like, how many times do you have to be in this spot until you say, you know, there's something wrong with this where I'm voting for you and then you're saying I need to blame this person over here for my problem. It's, you know, I don't know how long that has to go on, but it just seems to me it's gone on a long time for a lot of people who are hurt in bed, you know. Okay, in our last minute, Sandra, any idea of where we're headed? I'm with Ben, I'm an optimist and I have, you know, I have tremendous faith in our young people and their ability to remake this country and address these because they're having, there's so much of what, you know, there's so many, so much of the rights that we sort of generation fought for that they've had to see those things being at stake of being lost is motivation for them. I think you look at the gun rights, you know, the gun rights issue. The young people are the ones that are most affected by that, by this avalanche of, you know, gun violence in their schools. I think for most of us, the notion of having to do, you know, drills for shooters never occurred to us going to school, but this is a part of their world and it's just not, it doesn't make sense because it's not necessary. And I think they're seeing this like this is not the way, I mean, I'm not against people having guns, I'm not, that's not my position, but I think there's certain things, you know, people just shouldn't be walking around with assault rifle. So it's just not necessary. And for them to be so directly impacted by these things is something for them to kind of fight for. And I think that's what you're seeing. And so Tina, to finish us off, let me phrase it a little differently. What do you think are the markers that may tell us where we're headed in the next few years? I think that's markers. People are literally organizing, they're coming together and they're not using the tools that Nielsen ratings and other pollsters have used. Yes. They're being innovative, they're being creative, they're taking different approaches and saying, you know what, I'm going to text you, this is where you need to be or let's get together and have a circle. So in some ways, it's innovative in other ways, it's the approaches that we saw our grandparents take, we saw our elders take when they didn't have technology. And I think that's the marker that we're seeing where people are saying, enough is enough between the events of January 6th, the increase in school shootings and people, for the most part, never thought that Roe versus Wade would be overturned. And the reality is it's happening. So now what? And now means we need to take a different course of action. What worked in the past, it isn't working. So, you know, if the older folks can't do it, the younger folks will. They're gonna do it. Exactly. Well, that's a great note to leave things on. Thanks everyone for joining us. ThinkTaiKawaii, support us if you're willing and happy Thanksgiving all. We'll be back in a couple of weeks. Thank you so much for watching ThinkTaiKawaii. 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