 Professor of Delhi University and Chancellor of Nehru and Osoka University is here with us in this university. We take the advantage of having a discussion with him and along with us, Professor Tabaram Tai, former professor of English at the college also with us. So we want to just discuss something regarding this growing intolerance of this society. There will be various reasons for it, there will be some religious intolerance, there will be other social intolerance. So we just have some idea about from Professor Emre Batting, that nationally he is the only nationally renowned personality in the sociology. I just want to have your views regarding this basic problem. Well, I think that there is a lot of intolerance, there is a lot of disorder, there is a lot of violence. But I think it would be a mistake to think that this was all absent in the past and it has suddenly grown up today. It has grown over a period of time and if we take a proper historical perspective, then we will not feel that everything is falling apart. I don't think everything is falling apart in India. Religious intolerance, I have experienced it myself as a boy in Calcutta. I went through the great Calcutta killings of 1946. What better example can you have of religious intolerance? So this is there, I don't think that we should brush it under the carpet, it's there. But I don't think that we should exaggerate its impact. Actually, at the same time, in Assam we have seen intolerances, there are a lot of places between the tribals and non-tribals, a lot of people in this opposition to religious organizations are also involved in this activity. Since Professor Taburam Bhai is a very well-known personality in this state, I think I can request you sir to close some light on this type of intolerance, intolerance is caste problems in this state. Professor Bhai, you have already referred to the phenomenon of growing intolerance in the country. And so it is not a big way in India, it's a line of great adversity. We as a nation are divided by races, religions, languages, cultures, pasts, classes and what have you. And any of these elements of diversity has the potential of returning volcanic and erupting somewhere at some time in India. So in such a situation probably we need to grow more tolerant, more we should learn to live together. But instead of doing so probably we have been growing more and more intolerant. So someone writes a book expressing his or her opinions about it, beliefs about a certain religion, you don't like the idea to spread there. So attack him and destroy his work. Someone creates a piece of art, a piece of painting, probably showing his imagination, fantasy, etc. You don't like the idea there, so attacking and destroy his work. We remember that lawyer, probably as they go from this, expressing an opinion about his, I believe, about the status of Kashmir. You don't like his idea and go and kick him. Recently, recently, probably last March or so, a group of Kashmir students, they support the Pakistani team when the Pakistani team wins the Asia cricket competition. They were in a college. They are suspended for three days from the college because they support the Pakistani team. What's happening actually, what's happening, this kind of growing intolerance. And there are, you know, the so many faces. Yes, I do not wish to underrate the presence of intolerance in this country. There is a lot of intolerance in this country. And from time to time, it erupts into violence. But I don't think that we should have the most interview of what prevailed in the past. There were divisions in the past, divisions on the basis of language, divisions on the basis of religion. And these led to a fair amount of violence and a fair amount of disorder even in the past. What has happened now is that it is much easier for intolerant groups to organise themselves politically. So you have the social groups of disharmony, discord, intolerance. But it is now becoming easier to organise all this politically. That's the downside of it. The upside of it is that along with this, there is a growing Indian middle class which is interested in individual effort, individual initiative and in creating a better economy. We must keep these two things together in our mind and not focus only on one. There are those who welcome the rise of the new middle class, the new technology, the new occupational structure, and lose sight of the negative side. As a sociologist, I feel that we must take into account both the negative and the positive side and not exaggerate one at least once a year. This is my view of it. And I think that we should worry about disorder, we should worry about intolerance, we should worry about violence, but we should not get into a panic and say, this is happening now, what will happen next? Because this is what people have been saying in India. I remember I was a boy in 1946 in Canada. People say, this is the end, but it wasn't. There have been other rights in Muslim rights in Canada, elsewhere in West Bengal, in the 70s and 80s. But again, we should, I always say, we should neither be complacent about it, nor put ourselves into a state of panic. So another idea that I want to have from you, is it also a region for intolerance because of the growing inequality in the society? That might be one of the reasons. And also some jealousness. That could be. But you take for granted that inequalities are growing. What is the evidence for that? We talked about Suresh Tendulkar. Suresh Tendulkar devoted a lifetime to the study of economic inequality. And his argument was that there is no evidence that economic inequality is growing. So what do you think? Economic inequality is as strong or as weak as it was in the past. I don't think that it's very easy to prove that economic inequality is growing. So what happens is you have a problem and then you look to one side of the picture. And inequality grows particularly in a country in which the economy is growing. It's developing. A new middle class is growing. A new class likes to move upwards, leaving other people behind. And if you are to have a new middle class, you must be prepared for having a class which wants to move upwards without caring very much for those whom they leave behind. This happened in the West. This happened in England. This happened in America. So there is an upside and a downside. And one of the things which I think is on the whole a positive development in our society is the slow but steady change in the position of women in this society. And that's a very positive side. That I think is very, very important and we mustn't lose sight of that fact. And I think women will play an increasingly important role in our society, in public life and not just in private life. And I think that on the call they will have a beneficial benefit in our society. Now you see women are in higher education they are very well represented in employment, in professional employment, in medicine, law, entertainment, banking. This is something new in the society. Look at the number of bankers who are women in fact. Look at the number of doctors, people in the mass media who are women. All of this is new. You can't expect a large and complex society like ours to change itself without any pains. So it's a way where we see also in the colleges and universities now the present day students they become more intolerance compared to the work in different years. So is it because of the growing unemployment and uncertainty of the effusive? No, first of all I question your statement as a statement of fact that they are growing more intolerant than they were before. I don't think that there is evidence to show that they are more intolerant than before. Why should we assume yes there is inequality and perhaps inequality is increasing but as I said I mean Suresh I used to discuss this with Suresh Tendulkar and there is a man called K. Sundaram who works together. And their view is that there is very little evidence to show that economic inequality, inequality in the distribution of income has grown in the last 50 years and certainly I think there is evidence to show that what is more important than economic inequality poverty has not gone either absolutely or absolutely. I don't think it has gone. And side by side but we see that the middle class is rising the middle class is precious, the middle class doesn't want to be restrained in its urge for upward mobility and so we tend to think then that this must be at the post of someone. We think of these things in terms of zero some day if the middle class is expensive this must be at the expense of the court. This is not necessary. Can I, can I please come to a very specific issue between Sir Horan which is the problem of economic worries in India. We say that Mary Counter has told a middle friend of mine at the University of Delhi in 1964-66 when he was already teaching there. This middle friend of mine complains almost every day that some Delhi youngsters put us from behind him and said, tini hindi by by by. So obviously echoing you know that so it's our lives music to India the kind of the slow one that made currency. Because the racial background. Yeah, because I refer to that racial diversity. So that's question of racial diversity but that was, you see, the individuals and youngsters not much hung down done but although my middle friend felt very bad about it so am I not an Indian? So that was his question. So why should they, why should they consider me a Chinese with tini hindi by by. Now, recently say this Oroonachari's young men escaped the Manipuri youth is also killed and there is this, there was this news about the Gujarat hotel where the Chinese President was staying recently where the Manipuri youths working in the hotel they were separated. Now this, I mean, Northeasterners have it and there are stories of women being harassed and... No, that is all very true. That's all very true. Well, what's all that? We must put it in the proper perspective. I've been asked by many people, Agrae Bede, what kind of a name is it? Are you an Indian? Are you an Indian? No, one must take it in the proper perspective. One must think that this is an example of growing intolerance. They hate me because they hate someone who doesn't have a name like Amit Bhaduri or Sumit Singh. I don't think that, you know, we must have a proper sense of proportion in these matters. Of course, people are puzzled. But in India, I would say that in India we are used to living with a diversity of religion and diversity of languages and diversity of communities to a much greater extent than in most other parts of the world. But if we are to think that we can continue with this great diversity of languages, religions, castes, communities, without any pain, then it's a mistake. So I would like to ask you both of you. Sir, what we've seen recently, suppose there's some accident of a car, immediately a car is burned down. So there is something happening in a house. So the legal activity happening in a house, the house is burned down. The owner is beaten up. So this intolerance... This is bad. It's very bad. But it happened in the past also. You've forgotten about it. I haven't. It happened in the past also. One of the things that is happening and it is true is that perhaps there is growing violence against women. But you must take it in the proper perspective. There is growing violence against women, particularly because women are doing so well and right. They're coming out. They're going to universities. They're going to work. They're joining the profession. And many men don't like it. So what are we going to do? Put the women back into parva, keep them at home or take the risk. That's what certain religious groups are basically detecting. That this should be the proper guidelines that the women should follow. So it again becomes a matter of intolerance towards women. It is intolerance but we should go with this thought. No religious group has a right to declare how much freedom women should enjoy. But there are people who use religion for putting forward these views which are unacceptable in terms of political order. We are at the basic profit is the following. We have adopted a democratic political order and we have to deal with it. And we have not done all that badly. So we want a democratic political order. The basic premise of democracy is equality. But we have inherited the most hierarchical society in the world. So how do you harmonize? How do you move forward with a society which is hierarchical and a political order which wants to be democratic? This is one of the basic roots of the tension that we find in the Indian system. And it's not going to go away. There's no magic solution to this. But I don't think that we should turn our backs on it and pretend that it was wonderful. Where was there violence against women 50 years ago on the streets? Where was the EFT 50 years ago? Where was it? Because women stayed at home. They didn't go to college. So they haven't faced it. I'm not justifying violence against women or EFTs. But they have to face it. They have to face it and they have to cope with it. And we cannot put them back. So the mentality has not changed? It has changed. No, it has changed. But it has not changed fast enough. Or it has not changed sufficiently. It has changed. I do believe that it has changed. But it has not changed fast enough. The mentality among students in universities and colleges has changed radically. I don't want to notice this. Calcutta University, when I was a student in Calcutta University in the 1950s in the postgraduate department, Ashutosh building, I had some friends in the English department so I would go and visit it. You know what the procedure was? The procedure was that the women would stand outside. The boys would go and occupy the bank coaches. The women would enter the clubs along with the professors. And the first two rows were reserved for them. They would enter along with the professors. Today this is unthinkable. So they failed to institute. No, no. So you think is it better today or was it better today? Better today. But this has not come without any price for women. There has been a price that women have to pay. But you must count the costs but you must also count the metrics. That is the problem. When we look back on the past, we look back only on the metrics. When we look at the present, we look only at the costs. Of course. How can you have a democratic social order without any problems? Where do you have it in the world? Professor, what is your rating of casteism in India today? Is it waning? That is a very difficult question to answer because I will say yes and no. It is waning but it is a... In some respects, the rigors of caste are declining. Let me give you three examples. The caste system, particularly the Hindu caste system, was based on the ritual opposition of purity and pollution in the dynamic taking water from this person, the kaccha food from that person. That is certainly declining. There is no doubt about that. Everywhere it is declining. It is not declining at the same rate. I am not saying that everywhere it is disappearing. It is not disappearing. It is still there but it is declining. You look at the trend, it is declining from both rural and other areas. But it is not declining at the same rate. It is not declining at the same rate in all religions in all parts of the country. Then... So the rigors of purity and pollution, women were not allowed to enter the kitchen when they were in their periods. How can you keep women away from the office when they are in the periods? These things we tend to forget. Women now work and sit with men. Can you imagine in a community, in a village, or anywhere the woman giving orders to a man of a superior caste who has to take those orders? This happens when the woman is an IAS officer and she has a stenographer who is a man. The woman may be a Corita or an IAS doctor. She has to take orders. She has to take orders from them. So this is also a system of change. And I think the status of the women as an IAS officer that becomes dominant rather than her caste status. Except that her caste and her gender status does not disappear. That still remains. That remains but it is superseded by her status, by her status. By her status. But in the South India, as I understand, there is a lot of caste segregation is there. So for example, suppose the Sindhu caste people are there in the other line of these roles. The Brahmins are not allowing them to look to the side or Brahmins are not to the other side. So this is still... No, no, no. The boot is on the other foot. It's the Brahmins who are at the receiving end. No, that's that. And again, this has been said. The backward classes movement has been very important in transforming the social order. So it's no longer what it was in the past. This idea that I've seen this... I'll give you a dramatic example of a change which I saw in 1962 and it has proceeded. In 1962, I lived in a very Orthodox Brahmin village in the Tanjum district and I lived on the Brahmin street Agraha. And before I had settled into the place, in the evenings I would hear somebody shouting from the back lane Swami, Swami Swami is what? The lower caste or any Brahmin. And then he became curious. What is happening? So my friend, the Brahmin explained to me, he said, you know, he's come to deliver the grain to the house of his Brahmin, he can't enter the street. He has to shout from outside so that somebody goes out and opens the door and you will put him there and go away. He's not a Brahmin. I remember that when the school which was located at the head of the Agraha, the Brahmin street, when the school was over all the children ran through the Agraha and some of them were Harijan children. Together, they go together. I don't know whether they go together but they are all there. Please don't exaggerate. I'm not saying that all differences disappear. I'm not saying that all Brahmin and Harijans boys go hand in hand. So the segregation of the Harijans in their borders, which is the question to ask, has declined substantially. And again, let me tell you a story which will give you a good idea of how this is happening. When I lived in that village I lived on the Brahmin street and that village has a tradition of Indian classical music. And there were three children whom I used to know, they were all Brahmin children and one of them was called Kausalya. She was then 12 or 13 Kausalya. Kausalya never married but afterwards she learned classical music. She got a degree in music from Bataño University and after retirement she stays in the same village in the same house with her mother. So I asked her younger sister who is now a lady in her 50s I said, what is Kausalya coming she said, you know she is very much interested in music so she teaches music in the home, I said in the home, yes and I said, who are her pupils she said, where are the children coming she doesn't charge any money but she teaches. And I said, but what kind of children are they coming do the Harijans children come she laughed, she said only the Harijans children come the other children have no time for classical music, they are learning computers it's not easy to change Sir, thank you very much so for being with us and every fruitful discussion regarding this interview if you don't mind I have a final question from my side so we have our diversity and we have already got to take quality to foster the causes of this diversity and I wonder whether you think that we have a strong mechanism to manage our diversity we have a mechanism, it's not a strong mechanism I want to ask you in which country do they have a strong mechanism which always works without any failing our education everything is indeed different I think law and order the law and order situation is not very satisfactory this does not mean that there is total energy and in the past the law and order situation was wonderful Thank you very much sir for being with us Thank you Thank you for being with us in this morning