 So hello everyone and welcome to our next session and the title of the session is Going open and a bracket source. So going open source in test and measurement the future of TNA TNM Automation with open tap. So, um, yeah, I'm very honored to have Brandon de Renzo and Jeff driller here at the session And I would like to introduce our speakers. So hello guys And where are you at the moment? 11 p.m. Saturday night here in California, so it's it's 11 p.m. Somewhere somewhere for beer and I guess that's where I am nice I'm in Colorado. So it's Sunday morning for me now 12 12 30 a.m. Okay, excellent. So I would like to introduce you before and we can hear about Your insights. So Brandon de Renzo is a software application engineer at Keysight technology and Brennan you started your career as an intern at Agilent technologies, which is now Keysight technologies and that was back in 2012 so you're serving in various roles in the test and measurement space over your career and Brennan is currently the automation product manager focusing on both Keysight's commercial automation tools Which is called the path wave test automation as well as the open source test sequencer open tap and the associated community and ecosystem The open tap project is the first known open source projects stewarded by Keysight Agilent ULT Packard in in the 10 lineage TNM lineage and Brennan graduated from University of Colorado with a bachelor in science and electrical computer and energy engineering With a minor in computer science and yeah, still living in Colorado And that's where you are today. And you enjoy hiking camping and fishing with his wife and doc very nice Thank you very much for joining us and then we have jeff driller and jeff is a business development and planning responsible software is responsible for software programs and at Keysight technologies as well And jeff has been with Keysight and former Agilent for over 15 years focusing in a number of different roles on test and measurement And yeah, he is a director of Keysight software acceleration team focused on enabling customers and internal business units with valuable software infrastructure in the spaces of automation and here open tap and of course also in cloud and analytics And so these topics are all connected in addition jeff Sorry in addition jeff Overseas the commercial automation program planning and business activities And he was part of the team that took open tap to open source in 2019 the first known open source project as we heard already here by Keysight And jeff is passionate about both open source as well as inner source software And has been an advocate of both internal and external to Keysight jeff graduated with an mse e and then b s e focusing on computer architecture and robotics From the university of southern california where he also played for their a c h D2 ice hockey team. He's currently based in santa clara california Jeff i'm sorry. I don't always know the abbreviations Because i'm not a natus speaker But and like I was thinking but then there was no time to actually check with you and what does it mean ms E is it like master of science and electrical engineering? I was thinking but I wasn't sure and and what is a c h a d2 I saw pt. What does it do? What is these abbreviations stand for? So i'm a subway as you as you got it is a master's of science and electrical engineering inside it both my degrees at usc And I I happen to be a lifelong ice hockey player and got to play through university I actually then coached the team and i'm still general managing it in my spare time. So lifelong hockey pan a c h a is the american collegiate club hockey association So it's uh, it's not the nc AA level. It's it's it's one below that Okay, thank you very much for cleaning that up and now we can get into the topic and I will hand over to you And thank you very much for joining us Excellent. Well, uh, thanks. Thank you Thank you mario and and and thanks everyone for for attending today I'm we were really looking forward to the potential of doing the face to face And so we have a large contingent of our team in singapore And in uh in the future we'll be looking forward to the next ones where we actually are there But today we're just going to talk a little bit about the the transformation that we've gone through And and as the title says going going open source in Testive measurement automation with our open tap project and as you've heard now twice in the in the intro bios It's uh, it it's the first known open source project that we're aware of in the entire test of measurement lineage of Hb through Agilent all the way into uh into key site and and i'll explain what that means if you're not really familiar with the Testive measurement industry. Um, obviously it being our first project Probably not as much awareness in this space. Although the for the ps lab crew. I think you're you're going to find some really interesting stuff in here For those who have heard ps lab There's there's a session that we have following that you should definitely stick around for showing the two working together So as uh, as as mentioned brennan and I are really passionate about the project on the community evangelism side awareness building That's that's really what we're trying to push here and get more visibility to the project itself And again, we we have a vibrant and growing Tech community around this in testing measurement and look forward to more people joining It's one of you to the next slide there brennan So a little bit of history. So if you're not familiar, many of you have probably heard the name to Packard or HP obviously but sometimes people haven't Realized or understood that the original HP Hewlett Packard back in 1939 founded in the garage on Addison Avenue in Palo Alto It was really a tested measurement company And and that is effectively known as the birthplace of silicon valley If you visit us today in in the region, you can still drive over to Palo Alto There's a nice plaque outside over on Addison Avenue in front of the garage, which still stands to this day So it's a very cool Historical aspect of technology in general around the world Spark of inspiration from from Bill and a and so for for many many years definitely Very much in a leadership position in the test measurement space. It evolved and in 1999 The the TNM arm actually was spun off from from HP or Hewlett Packard Into what it was then known as Agilent technologies and over the years Agilent and that's at the time when I joined and brennan as well um at Over the years we would acquire other companies Including life sciences and then it was determined in 2014 to spin off once again And and we formed as Keysight. So we keep getting punted out I don't know why that keeps happening, but it's okay. We're we're we're doing very well right now And it's it's again a pleasure to be kind of in the leadership position and fully focused on the test and measurement market No distractions Outside of TNM like life sciences or chemical analysis. Those are good businesses as well But but we're really focused directly on the test measurement market And in in 2019 we continue to celebrate that that's 80 years now of leadership in the test measurement space So we've been around for a while as a company our dna is is long and deep and Why is that important? Well, um as we go to the next slide here brennan In 80 years as you've heard before We've never launched an open source project And so i'm going to walk you through a little bit of the journey of open tap And how that came about Um and and brennan's going to take it on and show you where it's going And again, we're we're just trying to really reach out to the the vibrant open source communities around us We've been at fos them now a couple times First time at fos asia And and we're seeing some really good opportunities for connection and collaboration And so back in 2011 We had lots of internal needs and this will come up again as to why we're doing this. What problem are we trying to solve? We had lots of internal needs for for test automation This is a core part of our Various businesses and the business I happen to be in was the wireless business And and we have a very cutting edge software research team located in northern dead market in a city called all board And asked them to do a little bit of a project See if they could optimize and simplify And and and really make it very scalable to do automation in in the wireless market segment specifically And that that's market segment is testing handset So going back to bunny's presentation just a few minutes ago Testing those kind of devices as they roll off the production line during the rf calibration and our verification And so As we progressed forward we continued to use it with more and more chipset vendors We created a whole program around it called our silica better program And and we were really engaged in kind of a very narrow slice as we transformed in the key site in 2014 That really took off We we had a summit that actually sitting before And at our site there and and we decided you know This was going to be the automation core for the rest of keyset for the rest of the company Again as keyset spun out of Agilent really focused in on testing measurement It was really decided we needed to transform from being a hardware-centric Company toward a a software-centric solutions company And and tap at the time was very much a piece of helping create many unique and cool and valuable solutions to our customers And so we continued to push that forward and and ultimately through kind of a Big meeting in a board room battle royale of different options We ultimately came about to decide on tapping the platform going forward. So 2016 we launched it as a commercial product um started getting a lot of traction With customers because we had already been using it for many years and kind of in bespoke commercial deals and then Like into the the 2016 Later era we got a unique question. Um, we got a unique question from nokia. Um, many of you know them as the handset vendor That's really no longer. Um, I think maybe they license it out and so exist But but the true essence the original nokia the handset team is no more But the base station team is a market leader In in network infrastructure And that team had a lot of pedigree and dna and history from both automation Factory production, but really also open source. Um, nokia is definitely known As being very pro open source and and driving certain communities forward And so, uh, they pushed us and they pushed us to take tap at the time open source And our first question was uh, as you would expect a big company. It's four billion In in in revenue and and like 20 000 people Everybody's going to say wait, you're crazy. You're you're giving away your valuable ip and software for free And that's what we thought honestly. So, uh, it was a scary moment for us when our Customer at the time asked us hey, give us all your stuff. Uh open and we really didn't know what that We didn't know what that meant. Um, so we went we went back and we started asking questions reaching out Connected in with the linux forum. Um, try to learn as much as we could about open source and and the ways and the models that a commercial company could be engaged in it successfully and continue to invest um and and attended the uh linux foundation open source leadership summit Met a lot of great contacts and and really started thinking wow, there there is an opportunity here You know the core the core sequencer that we're talking about so much here and you'll see in the architecture It's it's it's valuable But it is commodity in a way And we checked internally and and we had uh 15 years before our own manufacturing team One manufacturing team in one company had uh tens multiples of tens of various sequencers in in one production center and and how does that come about? Well, it comes about because everybody creates their own There's not invented here There's the fact that sequencers are quite simple when you start and so somebody can create one over the course of a weekend Uh, a really good programmer can uh, or maybe even not a good programmer And so as as these proliferate, uh and teams don't talk Then then then this causes such a problem and it wasn't just our problem But we saw this in every one of our customers and and and and uh community members and engage parties around the world So, uh, we we realized that there was a problem here And even one inside our own company and so continued forward Worked with nokia to understand really what what value we could provide them And ultimately decided that yes, we would take this forward On that journey there in 2017 they brought us into the intersource commons event Actually, they hosted a naperville, uh, illinois at one of the nokia original bell lab sites And and really continued on that journey of driving things forward Even understanding the term intersource, which we just thought meant sharing code internally Be inside open source and and that was just a thing everybody did Turns out nobody was doing that in our company. Everything was siloed People were hiding their code and and not sharing it and innovation was stifled And when we started doing that the traction just picked up by orders of magnitude inside Keysight at the time and we realized wow, there's there's real power and potential here We can provide our own unique value in other ways But let's let's take this forward and let's open this up. So in 2019 we took it open source That was a scary and exciting moment all at the same time It takes a lot of convincing again in a commercial company of our size that that hasn't done this before But we started gaining momentum People started seeing the value and even some of our executives started coming in from outside companies that had experience in open source And that paves a lot of the way for you that really does help And so we were at foster in 2020 later in 2020 we launched a forum Which was one of the mistakes. I'll I'll say that that we we didn't do it sooner You're always going to learn things and we're still learning things today That was the way to engage the community And if you're interested, please join and engage us. That's where you see the activity now But but that was something that we just launched back in december and it's really starting to move forward And then obviously We're we're here today at posseja and there's much more to come Brennan. We'll talk about that shortly But just really quickly to cue him up kind of what What were the things driving us to get here? What were the trends that we were seeing in the industry and and I'll I'll highlight on three And if you're familiar with tm, you'll probably agree with these There's probably more but these are the big ones that are driving us these days So one is as I said before we're seeing lots of internal tools perforate and just drag teams down Slow them down to a crawl in their ability to innovate. They really want to create Value to their companies whether they're a A big commercial company whether they are a small startup where they're a hobbyist People don't want to create the commodity and uh, it's uh What we found is that when you do that Then then it just drags you down like a boat anchor because you've got to support it If you're in a big company, you've got to maintain it You got to add basic features and capability that everybody else already has So there's no value in that so in the automation space We really see open tap as being the the core that everybody can use and leverage going forward Whether it's a key site or even when a key sets competitors, whether it's a hobbyist Whether it's a small startup company There's really no need in the tm space to create your own automation anymore If it was commercial that would be a problem And that was a driving factor behind us deciding to open source That core up and and just put in it out there and we want the community to use it and leverage it The other trend we're seeing or the second one we're seeing is being open and extensible From the core tap was very Scalable so open tap by default is going to be scalable Just what you need not taking the whole kitchen sink basically and shoving it down everybody's throat But really allowing people to take the modules that they need and orchestrate them in a way Being our team is from Denmark. We always like to think of the the lego metaphor And we will continue to use that To to date on the openness side again As we mentioned And so Jeff Just unmuted there Let me know if you can hear me again Mario Yes, sorry. There was a background noise. So we had to mute everyone and yeah, please go ahead. Thank you very much. No worries. So again Scalable and and extensible but also again open and and that's not just the open source in the core But the fact that the apis are documented and open and and everybody can use and access them So they can build unique value around they could choose where licensed under an mpl v2 license So people can choose if they want to Open their plugins or or peripheral code or not We're not going to infect people with the gpl Just because in in an industry like the testing measurement industry You're going to find a lot of players would be really nervous with that a lot of ip lawyers Would would kind of shut that down pretty quickly including our own if we were ever taking it So we want both commercial and non commercial entities to utilize the same capability. So that was the reason behind that Finally on the hardware differentiation front and obviously we will continue to differentiate our own commercial hardware For its value and and its uniqueness again with our dna and lineage From from the hp days And that will continue but hardware will always get squeezed for margin from a commercial perspective And and we're seeing software continue to differentiate right now. We're talking about automation We're also seeing different areas on the cloud fronts, etc Where anybody can really create a lot of new value and and and that's that's again something We're really starting to transform and shift our company toward that software centricity So this was really well aligned with that and with the markets going in that direction So that's kind of the back story. That's how we got to this point again That sounded really really easy, right? We just decided we wanted to go open source and and everybody supported us. We just did it Obviously not the case and if anybody's trying to go open source. I mean, we're fresh kind of across that threshold People like everybody at fos asia like at fos dam like at the open source Leadership summit they helped support us and give us the inspiration and the confidence to move forward And we're happy to continue to pass that on to the open source and inner source communities So if you're at that stage and you feel like your situations similar to ours Please let us know we'd be happy to share our experience and best practices and continue to have Engagement and I think I was looking at bunny's profile while he was Doing his q&a there because I have not met him or interfaced with him But it seems like our paths could have an interesting intersection I think it says don't contact me on linkedin come have a beer. So With that I'll say come have a beer with us sometime We are open to happen and I'll hand over to brennan to show you what's in store for the future here Yeah, so so jeff kind of took us through, you know our history and and how we got here and and now I'll talk a little bit about what what we're kind of doing today and and where we're looking to go moving forward And and with that one of the the big things that we're looking at is You know, ultimately what are what are the challenges that we're that we're trying to solve here jeff kind of talked about some of the The trends that we're seeing but but fundamentally when we're when we're talking to customers and our end users You know, whether it's in the the pure kind of open source purest community Or if it's in more of our sort of commercial traditional space of things What is it that they're trying to achieve? That they're ultimately open tap is trying to help them with and really I think it comes down to three main pieces One of them is is time to market, right? That's that's always something that that people are worried about There's there's always a push to release faster to release sooner There's always going to be issues that occur and things that they run into and so That anything that they that we can do to help them With that is ultimately going to be beneficial and so As we look at the the different areas when they're coming to us time to market is is probably the the major major focus that they ultimately push on us and in kind of within that You know, especially looking at a sequencer In general from an open type sense that the question that we always get is around performance and test feed, right? And that's that's something that we we really Put a lot of focus in we even though this is an open source Component it it can't sacrifice on performance ultimately We it has to be just as good as a commercial tool or or other Internally developed tools that's how we're we're going to replace those ultimately we can't be You know just having something that's free and open source and thinking that's good enough It ultimately has to have the performance around it as well for people to to truly use it because Ultimately they have a job that they they need to accomplish And it's they can't just you know mess with something Early that's not really ready. It needs it needs to be ready for full production. This is used in you know Large manufacturing lines in all different industries of the world and and it needs to have that that overall test performance to be there And then another major issue that we that always comes up is you know We're we're talking about companies that have existed for many years within key set as Jeff mentioned you know, we have a 80 year history of Of writing tests and and developing products and and many of our customers have that history as well, right? and so They they don't have the ability to throw everything out and start over they they need to be able to integrate with existing stuff Integrating with new technologies coming in the future And not be kind of forced into a strict model of everything. They can't Um, you know throw everything away and start over and build on our platform They need to be able to leverage what they have and integrate with our platform to be able to Ultimately provide them the benefits that they need And so how did we accomplish that ultimately and what is it that we're kind of delivering? Um, this is just a high level overview of things in about an hour after this. There's a deeper dive technical tutorial that we have Um, that will really get you Um, a deeper understanding of developing on the platform and how it what it looks like and how to build everything out But this is just kind of high level overview of things And basically, um, what we have is as at the bottom here is the open tap sequencer engine And this is the kind of open source piece that we ultimately have created And then we have this plug-in architecture around everything and this is kind of a combination of Things that get created by Keysight things that get created by our customers our partners I'm going to get built out to create an overall solution. And so there's a couple main components within that One is what we call depth plugins, which is basically the the device that you're testing So you'll create a plug-in to be able to interface to that device, whether it's no common interface ssh Um, gcp, whatever happens to be as long as there's an api for it. Ultimately, we can connect to it And then you have what we call instrument plugins and basically this is sort of You know Keysight specialty, right? This is the the test equipment that you're going to be controlling the measurement equipment That you're going to be controlling the measurement equipment, whether it's Power supplies or signal analyzers and signal generators network analyzers, whatever happens to be again anything with An api we can ultimately have a plug-in for and this is kind of where Keysight has a lot of their focuses creating these plugins that um bridge the gap between the sequencer and then the the physical equipment that we sell ultimately And then kind of one of the other fundamental pieces is what we call a result listener This is basically what is in charge of handling the data. So as you're running tests, this will parse the data filter it Format it write it to a database send it to a csv file Anything ultimately any data format any type of data storage you can create a result listener for to handle the data Then kind of building up from there you create what we call test steps So basically these are your kind of test functions the specific measurements that you're doing You know putting the device in particular state calling a measurement on instrument kind of bundles that larger communication With settings that an end user would potentially pass in to do specific functions And then kind of the next step up from there. So we call a test plan This is basically a sequence of your of your test steps So you can have kind of just a flat sequence of multiple steps you can do sweeping you can do conditional branching you can do You know if statements different types of things to kind of sequence through all of your steps in the full kind of automated Way basically that's ultimately what we're trying to do here, right is is actually automate all of our test sequences Versus kind of the manual state of things And then kind of the the top level ultimately is a user interface We have what we call the the editor which there is a free Community edition for and then also a commercial version that the keysight sells But an end user could also build a custom user interface on top of this because again open tap is completely open source The platform can easily be extended for these lower level plugins But also the the higher level interfaces as well So this is kind of the the solution ultimately that we see people building and and Why if we've kind of had a lot of success with this model Is that because of the the plug-in architecture? It allows for one to have a common platform That's really one of the bigger issues that we've seen right is that As Jeff mentioned even within keysight we had 10 20 Different sequencers that were created none of them work together none of the teams Worked together none of them talked to each other So there is a lot of replication and duplication that was that was getting created And and that's even exponential outside of our company right that no one's talking to each other Everyone's doing the same thing over and over again And so this really provides that standardized platform and then we can Add the value on top of it by you know being able to leverage You know instrument plugins different result listeners different types of steps Ultimately the devices that are being tested are going to be kind of custom and proprietary to Do whoever's running those tests, but they can they can grab an existing instrument plug-in that knows nothing about their device And still be able to interface all of them So the architecture is really the the big piece of everything that'll that allows this to tile together And so if you're interested and hopefully you are in about an hour We'll have a couple other people from our team and actually some university students that will have a tutorial of building a a solution out and it's actually Using the the ps lab board if you're familiar with that and our open source python plugin Which is another interface that we have into the open tab sequencer So it'll be kind of a a full open source solution from the the software to hardware and so kind of now that we've Kind of achieved the the main just open sourcing Component of things we we don't feel like we're done right. There's there's more to it than than just Getting your lawyers to sign off saying it's okay to open source this you need to be able to do Multiple different things to ultimately truly be successful And so we're kind of focusing on growing in a couple main areas one of them is building the community. So we're doing that by sponsoring events like fascia and meeting new people and engaging with people We're creating a couple different things to help reach out to two people that may be interested Which is our newsletter our forum. We have different sets of youtube videos We have a new blog and news page. So there's a lot kind of going on that We'll be able to actively reach out to people versus just Giving them the code and hoping they can they can figure everything out And so that's kind of a big step that we're taking I posted the links in the chat For most of those things if you guys want to sign up, it would be great We we're not going to bombard you with stuff on the newsletter side of things. It's it's more or less a quarterly newsletter. So Hopefully it's at a good cadence where it's useful, but but not over overbearing and filling up your email box of things That the other kind of set of things that we're really working on is big building out our portfolio plugins So like we said that having the kind of standard platform is a big step But then ultimately what we need is kind of the common portfolio plugins that everyone can use and consume, right? So that a lot of those right now are coming from key site But our hope is to help build out that community where they're creating these plugins contributing them back We have um A few existing customers that have started contributing things back We're hoping to kind of streamline that process Make it even easier to do and then Ultimately that is really where we're going to see a lot of value We think where these kind of standard plugins can be used by everyone So you're not building everything from scratch every time And then the longer we go along this path the less and less you're actually building from scratch You're really focusing on adding your true innovation. You know everything that's specific to what you're trying to do not something that um Someone has already done, you know once or a hundred times before And kind of related to that the the other aspects that we're trying to build out is is our contributors as as I said Right now a lot of the actual contributors are from key site We have a few different companies That have signed our contributor license agreement um ps lab is Part of that as as of now and there's a few other ones. Nokia as Jeff was mentioning was kind of the major um Initial kind of big company. We have various other ones. They're all listed on our website And we're hoping to build that out as we as we move forward to really show the overall kind of benefit From not just key site, but to the the entire test measurement community And so with that, um, we these are kind of the the big things that we're hoping, you know We'll we'll help you guys and and us ultimately so we have our forum as we mentioned Um, this is where kind of all the engagement goes on for technical questions And anything else is is all posted on this forum. We have our newsletter that we just launched Um, so if you can sign up for that, um, you'll be able to kind of keep up to date with everything You won't have to go to you know reach out for what can we can tell you when uh When things are coming and provide updates and give you kind of an overall summary of what's happened over the last quarter essentially And then kind of the main landing page is at open tap.io. This is Where you can link to The forum the news the blog our our git lab page where all the code is hosted as long as well as the plugins themselves and so Um anything that you can do you can basically get to from the from the open tap page Then kind of the the last thing with all of this is I mentioned a few times but we have A tutorial coming up in about an hour that will do kind of a deeper technical dive on all of this So we gave you the high level overview of of why why we did this and kind of the journey But to kind of get your hands dirty and really see some of the stuff in action We have a live tutorial as well That's taking the open tap sequencer engine our python plugin and then the the ps lab board connecting all together Building out those instrument plugins the test steps the test plans that I was talking about in the architecture picture So hopefully you guys found this talk interesting enough that uh, you'll you'll join us again in an hour for for the next one Um, but yeah, I think that's ultimately All that we had so I think I'll open up for questions from there Okay, thank you very much and uh, yeah, I think people are also preparing already for your tutorial workshop and but there's one question here and from Um roland roland would you like to ask the question yourself? Yes, sure. So I've Just noticed you in the last two minutes. Actually, you know, you're cla But I wanted to understand you're thinking about including or carrying Drivers for competitors equipment in your code tree so for example Not so much that a competitor would do it. Although they might but if I is a the owner of a rigal Spectral analyzer or to develop a driver and send you a pull request Would you be inclined to accept it? Yeah, so I'll answer first and maybe I'll let just give some more detail because we've actually had some of this happen before But so part of it is ultimately things like that would be They wouldn't be in the core of open tap, right? They would be in a plug-in. So actually we wouldn't even be managing that so We don't really even have control of saying no actually. So if someone wanted to do it They they could they can contribute that plug-in and and even if we wanted to say no, we would not be able to But Sure, you control your own tree Well You by definition decide whether you accept it or you don't Yeah, so but but for something like controlling a specific device that actually doesn't end up in the open tap core That ends up in a plug-in, which is which is a separate component basically um So that so they're they actually all have their own individual repos ultimately and they're managed independently There's not there's not like a conglomerate of every possible thing. There's there's a core Repo for for open tap the sequencer engine and there's individual repositories for different plugins So whether that's for particular devices or particular instruments or or a collection of those that those are all separate actually We we we have a git lab page where we kind of collect everything Um and and kind of try to organize things and make it easy to find But they're actually in separate repos But I think more specifically to your question independent of the architecture That that's very much something that we would support and it's something that we we recognize is You know to really be ultimately our goal is to be a de facto standard in the industry and for that to happen we we need to support competitive products and you know Particularly within our industry. There's um from our companies that we work with they're generally Not only using keysight hardware to begin with so we have to be able to to support those That's a lot of the reason that companies will ultimately go You know and create their own Internal tools anyways because they feel like something coming from a commercial customer is going to lock them into To their their hardware, right and and we very intentionally have um an open structure that they wouldn't um Allow what it doesn't lock them in the the whole point is to take in They'd be able to connect to any device that they want it ultimately Yeah, I think I think brand you you kind of got to the crux of it is The core itself doesn't interface with the the hardware Etc. So that would be in a plugin. Those plugins can be created by anybody and has brand indicated That interface is documented and open and there's no way for us to prevent it But even if if there was we're fully supportive of people created plugins Actually, some of our customers have have actually created Competitive plugins as Brennan said they're they're not using a hundred percent key site And then they've open sourced those on to the the core Project repo. So there's different project spaces that people can go and create those Probably more valuable in the test and measurement industry I don't think as many people are going to be going hard into the source code itself But they would want to see on the plugins exist the binary form of that and And if you go to the open tap that I owe package repo, we'll be allowing anybody to load up As long as they acknowledge that they are the The authority and have copyright or permission to host those then then we can have them hosted and Put up onto the web page. So that's whether it's competitor obvious commercial company customer, whatever Anybody's free and welcome to to do so And I think those legal questions are never easy and yeah possibly A lot of questions and yeah, so the the question is always like Which contribution to accept and which not and what are the What's the process and how does it work? And I think there's also some time later on in after the tutorial And you will be around and also be able to Go to more detail than with the questions that people have. Yeah Yeah, and if if people still have continued questions, please feel free to take them to the forum on on open tap and Definitely happy to engage everybody continued on when it's not two in the morning in In colorado or three in the morning because it's daylight savings time this weekend actually I'm about to lose an hour But thank thank you guys for the the attention and the questions and again Really hope that you stick around for an hour for the ps lab integration demo that that's coming Okay, so Claps to you. Thank you very much for this presentation and I have to say it's a dream coming true. Yeah, because like how many years are we talking about this? all layers have to be free and open and Yeah, I mean we understand they're always like details And and questions about policies and about merging and about development and so on But I think the approach that you are taking is really exciting for a lot of people and yeah I'm really happy that we start to have a cooperation more closely also with the false asia community and with the pocket science lab project So thank you very much for joining us and we see more from open tap and You both of you in a little bit Thank you. Cheers. Thanks everybody