 Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE! Covering AWS re-invent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Intel, along with its ecosystem partners. Welcome back, about 65,000 here in attendance at AWS re-invent 2019. You're watching theCUBE and I am Stu Miniman, the host for this segment. Happy to welcome back to our program two of our CUBE alumni sitting to my right is Abby Fuller, who is the principal technologist for containers and Linux with Amazon Web Services. Sitting to her right is Deepak Singh, Vice President of Compute Services, also with AWS. Thank you so much for joining us on the program. Thanks for having us. Thank you for having us. So, as I said, both of you among the program and boy, your team's in busy. I mean, one of the things I love, first of all, there is a roadmap for many of the things that are going on, so we do understand what's happened in the future, but Deepak, maybe just tell us a little bit about your group and kind of the main focus. And yeah, well, let's start there. Yeah, so my group goes beyond containers. It includes things like Linux systems, our high-performance computing organization. But for the purposes of re-invent, let's stick to the Containers org. The Containers org owns all of AWS's containerized products, so that includes ECS, EKS, Fargate. We also own our service mesh offering, which is App Mesh. So the way I like to think about it is, it's the right way to build applications in the modern era group, and it's a team that stays quite busy because this is such a hot space to be in. All right, so we're going to talk most about containers, but your shirt is talking about the Linux piece. Tell us what your shirt says. Ah, yes, this is the only right way to smell Ami. Unfortunately, my previous, when I was in New York, Corey was at the table interviewing me, and I wore this just for him, but I'm, yeah. So, if it is Ami, then we're going to spend some time talking about ECS. Yes. And ESS. You know, we will figure that for, OWIS is AWS, I think, is how we will do it. So, absolutely, we're not going to talk about ontological arguments in there, but Abby, a whole lot of new services in the container space. I want to put a pin and put Fargate to a side for a second, because lots of things we want to dig into there, but a lot of other things have been announced in like last month or so. Maybe give us a little bit of a view. Yeah, I think a couple of big ones for us. So, Fargate and Spot. So, run on spare Fargate capacity for up to a 70% discount off of standard Fargate pricing. Some interesting things like vulnerability, image for scanning for images on ECR. We launched over the last few days at Reinvent Capacity Providers for ECS, which lets you run, split your traffic between on-demand and spot instances in the same cluster. We also launched something called Cluster Auto Scaler. So, some finer grained control over how your cluster scales in on ECS. All right, I want to take a quick step back. So, Fargate, announced a couple of years ago, was only first supported on ECS. Definitely, I've talked to lots of customers, very excited about it. Maybe talk to us a little bit about how Fargate fits in the whole container discussion and we'll hit with the news. Yeah, and actually, a good way to think about it is, from an AWS standpoint, if you're a customer running containers, the way we think about our services is, you need to place the stores as containers. So, that's ECR. You could use your own registry, you could pick a third party one, that's fine. But most of our customers just use ECR. Then you pick your container scheduler. That's either ECS or EKS, depending on your preferences. And then you have to figure out where you want to run your containers. And of course, when we launched ECS five years ago at Reinvent, there's only one way to do it, on EC2 instances. And two years ago, we added, in our mind, is a cloud-native natural way to run containers, which is Fargate. So, Fargate serves as a runtime, a compute engine for containers. And you can pick your scheduler on top of it and go make hay with your applications. So, that's kind of how we think the hierarchy works. And it works pretty well for most customers. They'll start off often with EC2 and move to Fargate over time or mix and match. And it's kind of fascinating to see how many customers of ours have decided they want to be all in on Fargate, which is a great place to be for us. Okay, but the big news, but I actually got a good cheer in the keynote yesterday, is Fargate for EKS. So, what's the importance of this? Yeah, I think, so I think it's saying that we've been talking to customers about for a while, and it's the ability to run your Kubernetes pods on Fargate capacity. And I think it's really speaking to folks love Kubernetes as a tool and as a community, but it can be a pretty significant lift operationally. And with Fargate, they can use the APIs that they want or the open source tooling that they want, but they don't have to worry about provisioning and managing that EC2 capacity. All right, so, Deepak, I actually was having a conversation with a good AWS customer yesterday and he said he'd actually started out on Kubernetes before EKS existed on, you know, EKS and migrated over to AWS when EKS became available. And he said, Fargate really interests me, but one of the main reasons he does Kubernetes is he wants to have some portability, has some concerns at, he knows what services he used and how, if he needed to move something there, what do you say to the customer that says Fargate's interesting me, but I'm concerned that I'm going to get locked in if I buy into this model? I would say that you shouldn't worry about it because of two reasons, maybe more than two. One is the unit in Fargate that you interact with and work on is the same unit that you interact and work on with Kubernetes in general, which is the Kubernetes pod. It's the same pod spec, it's just a pod, no difference. You can take the same pod and run it on Timbuktu cloud and it'll still run. So that's part one. The other one is that you're using the same tools, you're using Kube CTL and in fact, you can mix and match your Kubernetes clusters. You can run 95% of your application on Fargate and 5% of it on EC2, all you're doing is changing the pod annotation and if you decide you want to run none of it on Fargate, you just flip that and suddenly everything's running on EC2 capacity. So I actually think there's not that much to worry about because it's just the same pod, it's still the same tooling. The operational model is a lot simpler. So Abby, we've talked to you at DockerCon and KubeCon. Simplicity is not the word that we hear when we talk about this whole container space traditionally. How are we doing overall? I mean, I'm watching the community here and it's like, oh wait, Fargate sounds cool but where's my persistent volumes? Where are we and give us a little bit of the road map as to where we are to make this simple and managing more of my environment? Yeah, I think the way that I like to look at it right is that we've spent, and it's not just us, but we spent a lot of time looking at things like patterns and abstractions that help make these workflows easier for developers. And I think one of the launches that's interesting in that vein is the ECS CLI version two, which we launched a few days ago. And that will help you deploy like a production ready containerized application. It'll help you with the CI CD angle. It'll help you with the monitoring and observability. So I think it's about abstracting away and adding patterns on top to make some of these common operations and workflows really modular and repeatable and extendable. And then it's about having the ability to customize where I need to. So being able to run on Fargate, but also to use workflows running on EC2 where I need to and being able to mix and match and to focus my energy where I really get any benefit from customizing rather than having to do the whole thing from the ground up. The feedback I've gotten from my friends in the app dev community is that hybrid is more and more becoming a standard deployment model. Obviously things like Outposts and some of the other solutions from Amazon are extending the AWS model of doing things. But many of them also look at just Kubernetes as a layer to do that. How should we be thinking of this from your solutions? Yeah, so I'll start with Outposts. So if you noticed in Andy's announcement yesterday among the list of services that were available on day one were ECS and EKS. And actually AppMesh as well, it wasn't on the list, but AppMesh is available on Outposts on day one as well. I think when we think about customers who want to run and say in their own capacity in their own data centers, because EKS is built on upstream Kubernetes with no modifications, the same application as long as they're running on upstream Kubernetes on their side will just run on EKS. And there's a number of models that work there. A great model is the kind that Cisco is running where they will manage it for you in both places. They become the first person you call. And on AWS it's just EKS. And on premises it's whatever Cisco has decided to build. Our ProServe team will also help you there for example. So I think there's a number of modes that work there. But the key part and it's the reason why we have stayed with upstream Kubernetes is we never want to make someone say, oh, I can't use EKS because they've moved somehow modified Kubernetes. And I think that's super important for us. Yeah, I mean, Abby, I know you're an active participant in the community. What do you say to people that look at Amazon, Deepak talked a little bit about Fargate, you don't need to be concerned, it's the same images. So speak a little bit maybe if you could to Amazon's community participation and what you're generally hearing from your customers. Yeah, so I think they're rid of it, right? Is that we're all building with the same building blocks. I think something that Amazon has been really strong at is open sourcing primitive. So Firecracker last year I think was a good example. And I think we do really well with saying we built this to solve a problem for us but we think that you might want it to. And in terms of community support, we've been open sourcing a lot more over the last year. We open sourced our roadmaps in November last year. We've run developer previews off the GitHub roadmap. AppMesh has a public preview channel as well. So we've been trying to involve the community participation earlier and earlier in our product development life cycle so that, especially with things like ServiceMesh where it's really pretty new, we can make sure that we have the voice of all of our users and our customers and they're as early as possible but to get their hands on keyboards to try it out as soon as they can. And actually a great example of that is work that V-Works has done. Talking about people who can run Kubernetes on AWS and on premises, they have this project called VVignite where they're basically running Kubernetes and Firecracker on premises and then on AWS the customer just runs any KS as an example. And it's that, I think that part has been, not everybody realizes that this is possible but I think the fact that people are doing it excites us a lot. All right, I know you're both meeting with a lot of customers this week. I mean, Deepak, start with you. Any surprises or any misconceptions other than I know there are a lot of people wearing teal shirts with a certain pronunciation but bring us inside some of the mindset of your customers here. So actually our conversation has been very consistent. I think the community as a whole, our customer base as a whole, they all want to get to the same place. How can we move really quickly? How can we give our developers the ability to be more productive without putting our company at risk, having the right level of governance, having the right controls in place and I think that's been a consistent theme across the board. I guess the one thing that we've had to remind people of a little bit is a lot of people often think that Fargate sits on top of ECS and EKS, it sits below that and that's actually the fact that now there is an EKS Fargate. People understand that more quickly but before that it used to be a little trickier. But other than that, I think our customers almost all, they come from different places, have very similar problems. They want the developers to move quickly and deliver business value and the platform engineering teams that we speak to want to figure out how to get out of the way and that's been great. Yeah, it's a great, Abby I'd love your viewpoint from the developer community. Andy talked on stage about very much to do true transformation. There needs to be the leadership driving things down. I'm curious what you're seeing customers you talk to, people you had, because many of these tools we're talking about have started in the developer world. Yeah, I mean I think there's been like an increasing amount of curiosity around the cultural side of it. So how can I get my team to work like that? How can I get my team to ship more safely, more quickly, but getting operations out of the way? And I think you see more and more interest in that. So how can we build the tools that work the way that our developers do so that we get all the things that we want? So security and compliance and availability that the developers get what they want which is easy workflows that match the way that they want to work. So you see a lot of curiosity around that. So how do we get to the place where we can run everything on Fargate and benefit from all the new serverless styles? All right, real quick, just give you the final word. Any websites or events or things that people should know when they want to learn more and get engaged? Yeah, I think I'd send people first and foremost to the GitHub public roadmaps. It is the easiest, fastest way to let us hear your voice on what you want to see us build next. I think especially these next couple of weeks coming out of re-invent, as people start to get their hands on what we announced, I think I'm really curious for them to take that back and then be like, this is great, but here's what I want to see next and I'd love to see that happen on the roadmaps. Yeah, about a month or so ago, maybe a couple of months, we started a dedicated blog for containers on the AWS site. One of the nice things about it is a lot of the contributors to that blog site are principal engineers and engineers in our organization. For example, one of the principal engineers in my org called Malcolm Petenby has a whole blog post on how should you think about scaling and best practices? I think I would encourage people who've not seen what we have, all the new services we're developing and that's where you'll get the details and how you can use them, how we built them and I encourage everybody to go to that blog site and check out what we're doing. All right, Deepak, Abby, congratulations to you and your team, great progress and really appreciate we are able to look at the roadmap and definitely hope to catch up with you both soon. Thanks so much. Thank you so much. All right, I'm Sue Miniman and back with much more right in a second. Thanks for watching theCUBE.