 Okay. We are live. Hey, everybody. Drew here, thatanxietyguide.com. Back again with my fabulous co-host, Holly Kotzea. Hello. All the way from Mallorca. Is it blazing hot there again, Holly? It's so hot. I mean, it's like nine o'clock at night here now, but I'm just sweating, and it's just horrible. But yeah, it's... That's Mallorca. Well, yeah. Welcome to it. So we are up to chapter three in the Claire Weeks book, Hope and Help for Your Nerves. We're going to go over this one. It's another short chapter. Next week will be... Or the next... I shouldn't say next week. I would like to say next week, but we know how that's working out. The chapter four is a much longer chapter. We'll dedicate a whole episode to that. But chapter three, which she entitles, what is a nervous breakdown? We're going to go through that one. So if you're following along with us, that's a chapter we're talking about. And Holly, let's talk about... I love the term nervous breakdown. That's so old. Yeah, it's really old school, isn't it? I like it, though. Yeah. I think it's something we used to hear more about, like, oh, he was hospitalized with a nervous breakdown. Yeah. It's very... It's very 60s, maybe 70s at the latest. You don't really hear it much anymore. But... Yeah. I think these days, I'm not really sure what we'd call it now, I guess, just a breakdown. I don't know. It's kind of like... It doesn't really have like a sort of term anymore, does it? I don't think it does. I would almost think that what we're looking at here is... I don't know. I would almost think that what she's defining here, if we're going to make a corollary to what people are dealing with now and the people that are listening to us are watching us. And I apologize for audio only, by the way, you're watching a very boring still picture, but it's on YouTube. So I think I would say that nervous breakdown is probably... We could almost use that interchangeably with terms like panic disorder or gorophobia or generalized anxiety disorder. So I think... Yeah. And we were talking about this before we went live. She really talks about why... So when we say nervous breakdown, I think we probably could just say the particular disorder we're dealing with, panic disorder or gorophobia. And in this situation, she really talks about what defines that? When does it become a nervous breakdown? And what does she say here? Yeah. So she... Well, what's her main big point is that there isn't particularly like a big difference in sort of what's happening to a person that suffers anxiety or panic attacks, but still can sort of carry on with their normal life. It's just that... So that person can carry on, but it's difficult for them, obviously. But then the person that sort of like now has got this disorder and maybe they've stopped working or they can't go out of their house or all this sort of stuff, that is... It's the same thing that's happening to them. It's just the severity of the symptoms. It's kind of like their reaction to the symptoms themselves. It's not actually anything different. It's just the severity of it. Right? Yes, I think that's true. She does say it's the symptoms are the same, just that when it gets more severe, you get into what she calls nervous breakdown category, I guess. Interesting. But I think when she talks about the breaking point of I guess what she's defining is what happens when nervous breakdown really happens. She says, I've asked the pinpoint at the beginning of a nervous breakdown. I would say it's the moment when the sufferer becomes afraid of the alarming strain sensations produced by continuous fear and tension. And so places him or herself in a circle of fear, adrenaline and fear. So I think that's important because I think in this chapter, even though it's a short one, she's really kind of defining when this becomes a disorder, if you will. Yeah. Right? Yeah. We're just talking about that. Maybe we want to touch on that a little bit. Yeah, so it becomes, I completely lost the plot here. I'm getting eaten by my mosquitoes here. But yeah, what did you just say? So she defines the breaking point. Like when does it become nervous breakdown? And of course, it's a matter of severity of the symptoms. But she says that it becomes a nervous breakdown in her eyes when somebody begins to fear how they feel. So they become afraid of the sensations themselves and they become the source of that fear, adrenaline, fear cycle. And that's when she will say, Dr. Weeks said, this is when we say that it's a nervous breakdown. Yeah, absolutely. And like, because so if people are just like listening, maybe they didn't listen to the chapters before, just that fear, adrenaline and fear cycle is the, because basically all these symptoms and strange alarming things that you get in the panic attack and everything, it's only caused by adrenaline. And adrenaline is caused when you're afraid. And so if you're then afraid of the symptoms of adrenaline, then your body's gonna produce more adrenaline because you're afraid. So it produces more of these symptoms which you fear. And then that's how you get locked in that cycle. And so that's how you become completely like disabled by your fear of the symptoms that you have. Yeah, and I think that's where we've talked about in the past. Where you get the difference between having this panic attacks or being anxious at actually having panic disorder or garophobia where you begin to fear the sensations themselves and you start to modify your lifetime or your lifestyle to accommodate because you're trying to avoid them. Yeah, absolutely. It's when it's, yeah, it's where you stop sort of just sort of bashing on through and you like actually start adjusting. Yeah, and so it might be like small at first, like you stop going to certain places because you last had a panic attack when you were there or, you know, and then it can, it just grows and grows from there until in the end you can't leave your house. And even if you're in your house, you're having a terrible time as well, which is obviously awful. But it's all caused by the, this fear, adrenaline fear cycle. Yeah, I think so. And that's where, you know, we talk about you're in disorder state when you start to actually modify your lifestyle to avoid those things. So that's a good point. And then she goes on to talk about two types of nervous breakdown, which I guess for us with the carol area would be, you know, she's talking about two types of conditions, I guess that would lead to something like panic disorder or agoraphobia for us. Yeah. And I think I'm the, I'm most familiar with, I guess type number one, which is where I usually concentrate my, my efforts and my energy just because I'm sort of behavioral dude. But I guess we can look at them each one. So she talks about two types of breakdown where the first one, which I think is the simpler one, is that you're mainly concerned with your physical symptoms and the way you feel. Yeah. And she, what's really interesting is when you read this book, because if you're reading it when you're like really suffering badly and you're like, well, yeah, yeah, I'm really concerned with the physical symptoms and the way I feel this is it. And then she's just like, oh, well this is like really simple to solve. You'll like totally be able to be cured completely from this. This is like the easiest, most simplest anxiety state that we know. And it's quite sort of like, I remember being like really alarmed and surprised and like in disbelief when I sort of first read that it was just like, that's a bold statement, isn't it? You know, but yeah. It is kind of bold. And I think it's the thing that people really have a hard time putting their brain around that. We truly, when you're in a situation where your disorder is driven by fear of how you feel and what you think, it's so easily, I'll say easily, it's simply addressed. It's not easy because it's a hard plan to execute, but it's a very simple plan and people hear me talk about it all the time, probably to the point where they're tired of hearing of it. Yeah, she's dead on right. And I think it is hard to imagine if you read this book, you're in the thick of it. You can't imagine how you're ever getting out of your house again to hear this woman talk about how, oh, this is simple. This is like a simple problem. Oh yeah, oh, this is the easy one to deal with. This is no problem at all. Exactly. And this is where like I put most of my eggs go in that basket. So when you're dealing with a panic disorder, agoraphobia, some, what she calls anxiety state or nervous breakdown, where what's basically happening is that you're just doing your very best all the time to avoid feeling the sensations that you fear. Then the way to address it is just to begin to expose yourself to those sensations and we're gonna talk about that down the road as we go. But this is the simplest form and we know already that things like in vivo exposure as part of cognitive behavioral therapy is just so incredibly effective. We just know from mountains and mountains and years and years of real world experience that it's very effective in dealing with that. Yeah, it's hard for people to swallow I think because the symptoms and the fear of the symptoms is so massively like overwhelming that it just feels like, well obviously my problem must be more complex than this. It can't be this simple. There has to be something more to it. It can't be this easy, you know? Like, and it's just that's, and it's not, it's like this is the whole key to it all and it's the simplicity of it. But it's just because it's simple doesn't mean it's easy but it is very, very simple. It is very simple. I think people tend to resist the idea when she says this is really good news because it's a simple problem to solve. Most people, I think they just, and we'll talk about this as we go on through the book because the goal for most people is the wrong goal. Like, I wanna stop feeling this way. When in reality, Dr. Weeks would probably say, no, no, no, that's not what you do. First, you have to just not be afraid of how you feel. Like, go ahead and feel that way and just learn that it's nothing to be feared. So I think that's why people feel like she's gotta be crazy. There's no way it's that simple, but it is. But I guess let's talk about the second one. She says that anxiety problems, the second type of what she calls breakdown. Anxiety problem has begun with overwhelming sorrow, guilt, disgrace, and trauma. This is one that I don't generally, sometimes I might be guilty of not acknowledging it or pushing it aside a little bit, but it's real. It definitely is real. Yeah, I find it interesting this one just because I think people will sort of reach their anxiety disorder, their panic disorder, their agoraphobia through different ways, but the way to deal with it once you're there is kind of the same. It's all the same as that sort of number one way. But I think it's interesting or worth making a note of whether there is something on these lines that have brought you there, because I know for me that definitely was sort of like, it helped me a lot once I realized maybe some of the reasons that brought me to it in the first place, you know what I mean? So I could then recognize also just like my behavior patterns that were probably like still increasing my, cause like basically like the, if you're like tense for prolonged periods, then you're gonna start sort of having anxiety, you know, and like it may lead to panic attacks and then you might fear the panic attacks and then you're into like the number one problem, you know, the fear of your symptoms. But if you can figure out what sort of led you there in the first place, like maybe it was a trauma, maybe it is some sort of like sorrow or guilt or disgrace or something, you know, then I think that it's, it's worth sort of recognizing because then you can help yourself to like not go back there, you know, to like not be so tense in the first place, even once you've like solved your main sort of like symptoms of anxiety problem. Yep, I agree with that 100%. It's definitely useful to understand that this could be a real thing. And I think though it's worth noting that a lot of people will look at this and say, well, yes, you know, I developed my anxiety problems after a specific trauma or some abuse or something horrible, you know, a family. And they want to focus on that. And I think focusing just on sitting on a sofa and talking this through with a therapist, once you have actually crossed over into that realm where you're modifying your lifestyle to get away from those sensations and the feelings and the places that make you feel that way, you've got to have to sort of address it behaviorally first. And then, right, and then you should certainly work through the issues that brought you there. There's no doubt in my mind that that's a valuable thing to do, but I think many, many people make the mistake. They'll go for help and they'll completely ignore the behavioral and cognitive part of it. And they'll just sit on somebody's sofa and talk about what went wrong. And that's valuable, but it often doesn't solve the actual anxiety disorder problem. Yeah, no, for sure. Exactly. And when I say it helped me, I did definitely address my sort of panic disorder first and my agoraphobia first. And then it was, I mean, it was years down the line that I was just like, actually, I think that it was because of this and now maybe I behave like this, which sort of like makes me prone to this sort of stuff, you know? Sure. And then I think, like you said, it makes it once you understand the issues that maybe got you there or whatever that trauma or your past experience was, it helps you stay out of the hole. Cause we all easily slip back in, but if we gain an understanding of maybe what got us there, it certainly helps. But I thought it, it bared noting cause a lot of people will take that and sort of run with it. Like, oh yeah, I have a therapist. We're talking about, you know, some of my issues with my father or whatever it happens to be that, but that's great. But if you don't, if you don't really tackle, try and extinguish those avoidance behaviors, you know, if you kind of barking up the wrong tree at least at first, so. No, I absolutely agree. Cause also like, when you're like really in the thick of it as well with like the panic attacks and stuff, your mind is so warped, do you know what I mean? Like you can't really think straight. Logic goes completely out of the window anyway. So to try and do anything like properly like thinking about things and do you know what I mean? It's like so difficult to sort of start contemplating things in that sort of mindset that it's just like, no, no, no. Get yourself better, like first from all these like terrible anxiety symptoms and affecting your like thoughts so badly. And then, you know, down the line and then you can like sort of look at maybe what got you there in the first place and maybe just sort of address that, you know? Yep, I agree 100%. In fact, my own personal experience with this and I'll be totally honest with you. I'm still not really sure what got me into, you know when I first started struggling with panic issues way back in like 1986 or whenever that was I still don't know what got me there. I mean, I have a lot of theories but I haven't spent the time to really uncover all that stuff. And I think many people would argue that there's always stuff under there that something got you there, something got you. Yeah, sometimes it doesn't even have to be like a pinpoint moment. It can kind of be like in your personality or something like I read a really interesting study that I can't remember his name. It was a Scottish psychiatrist and he or like psychologist and he did a study on panic disorder that hadn't been done before on the sort of relationship between sufferers and how they process things emotionally before they got ill like and people that don't suffer from panic attacks and stuff. And so, and like there was just a massive like he said it was just so massive he couldn't believe that it had never been like seen before in that apparently like a lot of people that suffer with panic disorder they have like real trouble like emotion he calls it emotional processing. And so like big things might have happened to them like they'd gone through a divorce or someone had died or they'd had an affair or they got kicked out or they were like sort of almost homeless and stuff like this. And yet they'd be going like no, no but that's not the problem. It's just that my heart's really racing and I'm really worried about that I'm having a heart attack. And it's just like, what about the whole thing that's going on in your life? And they're like, no, no, no, that's not the problem. And I mean, I completely relate to that. I remember I used to say to the I remember saying to the doctor because years later in my 20s I was still going back and forth with suffering and not suffering sort of thing. And I was really suffering badly. And I was to the doctor and I was driving like 300 miles every two days to get to a different gig and then play a gig. And if I was late, then I would like not get my money. It was just awful. I was sort of homeless. I was kind of living in my car and it was just horrendous. And I was saying to my doctor just like, oh, you know, I just don't know what's going on. I'm just having these panic attacks while I'm driving on the motorway. And he was just like, maybe your lifestyle is really stressful. I think most people would find what you're doing like really stressful. Like maybe you should just sort of address your lifestyle. And I was just like, no, you don't understand. Like, I'm not afraid of like the stress of driving down a motorway. Jesus, I'm not afraid of anything. The only thing I'm afraid of is panic attacks. And it's just like, that's kind of like key, isn't it? Like it's not really normal to not be afraid of anything in the world apart from panic attacks. I can't believe that you just said that because people who, well, anyway, the people in my life who know me, I have said that so many times that I lived many, many years before my first panic attack. Oh, you know, I grew up being fearless. And then I grew, you know, even after I developed anxiety issues, I was continually fearless, but yet I really wasn't. So it's funny that you used to say that to doctors like, hey, maybe you should really look at this. And we're so stubborn. And I was in the same boat. I remember seeing one therapist for a short time and she was like, you know, I'm gonna say that, like, you know that you're, the bottle is sort of overflowing with you. You got to really learn to deal with this. And I'm like, yeah, that's not it. I totally like, yeah, that's not it. I'm out of here. And then years later, when I had a different therapist for a while, she was awesome. I loved her. She said, yes, we should probably try and find out what that is. But first we have to, she used a great analogy. She said, if you walk into the emergency room in the hospital, the first thing we would do is stop the bleeding. You know, then figure out why you're ill or why you're injured. So she said, well, first we have to stop the bleeding. And stop the bleeding is that's the part where we're gonna address the avoidance behaviors, the cognitive behavioral stuff and stop the bleeding and then treat the problem. So it's definitely a good topic. I think it's people should really look into that as much as possible. So I think that's almost the biggest takeaway from this chapter, at least from me is bringing those that out and knowing that it's important. It does matter for sure. But yeah, it's important to bring it up and to say like, don't focus at the minute on what begun it on your trauma or your whatever your personality or whatever like that. Don't worry about that. Let's stop the bleeding. That's a really nice analogy. Yeah, she was great with that way. She said, first you would stop the bleeding and then you would treat the problem. And you know what? She was dead on right. And we stopped the bleeding and I still probably haven't treated the problem. I'll freely admit, but for me, stopping the bleeding was kind of enough to start. So if you're listening and you've spent, you're dealing with panic disorder or agoraphobia and you've spent the last five years figuratively laying on a therapist sofa, talking it out and you feel like it's not helping you, well, this might be why. You got to bring some people and work into that. Because I see a lot of people say like, oh, I've tried therapy and that's not works. Like nothing's working. And it's just like, well, it really depends on what kind of therapy as well. Or people who will say, well, I tried cognitive behavioral therapy, it doesn't work. And usually just a quick aside on that, it usually means that you had the right expectations as to what it was supposed to do. Oh, yeah. I mean, I would like to just jump in there because I tried cognitive behavioral CBT, I can't say it. Yeah, that's fine. CBT, I'm from England. And so we've got the NHS there. And so I think it was probably like at the same time I was talking to my doctor about my motorway panic attacks and he was just like, oh, you know, you should go and see a CBT therapist because this is really like the best way to like deal with this sort of stuff. And I was just like, yeah, yeah, okay, great. And so I was like booked in and it was like a six week session. And I was such a veteran of panic attacks by this point that I just found this, and this is just my experience of it. But the sort of CBT available on the NHS was just very, I felt like the person giving me the session had done like a two week course maybe or something like that. And then it was just like, okay, I'm gonna explain to you like, and cause it was broken down into like a six week sort of course. I don't know, I just thought like, I know all this. Everything she was telling me, I was just like, yeah, yeah, I know, yeah, I know. Yeah, I know about the adrenaline. Yeah, I know. Yeah, yeah, crazy, right? It's just like, yeah, yeah, I know. And then I was just like, oh, this just isn't like, and she just didn't sort of explain to me enough. Is that a dog? It is, yes, it's a dog in the background. Someone's in the driveway and a dog is not happy about it. You know, it happens. So I totally agree though, that's very common. She didn't really set out to me in the beginning like what she was trying to achieve or what this sort of CBT would achieve. I didn't really know what it was. I just heard what CBT, I don't know, I've heard good things about it, but I didn't know anything about it. And so I guess like, yeah, my expectations were just like completely unknown. And then she just seemed to be saying like, oh, and it's caused by these and this. And I was just like, yeah, yeah, I know. But I was like missing the key thing, which was like I was still trying to avoid having panic attacks. Yeah, right, right, exactly. I literally was missing one bit of information and I couldn't get better because of that. Which is probably the most important bit of information, which is that, you know, our goal here is not to stop your panic attacks from happening like that. In the end that will happen, but that's not what we're going to try to do here. And most people look at me, well that's crazy, how could that be? But that really is the most important part of expectations when it comes to behavioral therapy. But yeah, we'll certainly get into that more down the road when we talk about her techniques, the floating, accepting and that sort of stuff. Yeah, yeah. But so I just, I sacked off the CBT before the end. I was just, and then I was one of those people that was like, I've tried CBT, it doesn't work. It's a load of rubbish, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then actually like if I'd stuck it out or maybe if it had been better or it had been explained, but you know what it means. It's just like, again, there's like, just if you've tried CBT, because I promise I was one of these people that had tried inadvertent comments CBT and then sacked it off. And then it, so I was just like, well it doesn't work. And it's just like, it actually does. Yeah, that's right, yeah, I guess it does. I mean, it does for the vast majority of people and if you have the right expectations. And I'll throw one thing in, I guess before we wrap up because we never talked a lot about CBT, but I think when people listen, a lot of times I'm surprised at the number of times that I hear, well, what is that? Or how can I go about doing that as it's something that you do on my own? I guess I'll throw a link if you're on YouTube, you can see it in the video description or if you're on the podcast page, I'll put it in the show notes. For I think a great book called The Anxiety and Phobia Handbook by Edmund Born, B-O-U-R-N-E. It's a relatively inexpensive book, I'm sure it's available all over the place online. That's a really good place to start. So if you don't know what CBT is, that book I think is a really great place to start. It's worth checking out because it's an actual workbook that the author takes you through, right? And you really get a feeling for like, oh, this is what this is, okay, now I get it. So just to throw that out there. And that you can absolutely do CBT by yourself as well. Like it may be harder if you do it by yourself, but I did it by myself and you don't need to pay money or anything like that, you can do it by yourself or you can go to a CBT therapist that's sort of good at it. And then, yeah, so that is probably easy if you've got someone guiding you through or you can listen to our podcast. Hell yeah. Where is it? For the low, low price of nothing. Exactly. Your eternal gratitude. All right, excellent. So maybe we should wrap it up. We've actually done 24 minutes on this very short chapter. Oh wow, God, I'm enjoying what we do on the next chapter. Right, exactly. Oh, the next chapter's a long one. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. I think it's a really important chapter in the book. So we'll have a whole episode on that. I'm sure it'll be longer. We may have to even break it into two parts, we'll see. But as always, and you know, I'll be honest with you, I haven't really seen much in the way of comments, but we'll throw it out there anyway. If you have questions and comments, send them this way. You can find me on Twitter at ThatAnxietyGuy and on Facebook, ThatAnxietyGuy, or on the website, ThatAnxietyGuy.com, or if you're watching on YouTube, there's a comment section. So by all means, throw it out there. And if there are questions and comments, we'll certainly take the time to answer them or at least respond to them. And for everybody who has been messaging, and a special shout out, I think, shout out, listen to me. No. To the people in the panic disorder group on Facebook, but maybe I should link that, Holly, you think? Should I put that? Because it's a good group. Yeah, and then Holly and I are both there. I'm actually one of the admins, Holly's an ex-admin. We're both on that group, so maybe I'll put a link. If you're on Facebook and you wanna join a group of 13,000 or so other people that have panic disorder, it's a good group, it's really supportive and it probably is worth us all throw it on there too. And we do get a lot of feedback in that group on the podcast. That helps too, because we always post the episodes in there and you can kind of follow some discussion along if you wanted to. So I guess that is it for now. Cool. All right, Holly, thanks again. Appreciate it as always, great job. No, thank you. And yeah, we'll see you for next time. Yes, absolutely. All right guys, see you next time. Bye. Bye.