 And it was nuts like as a you know, 22 year old uni student kind of thing I like made my first six figures like whilst still at uni at uni And what was nuts was like my uni results were amazing like that year as well because um, I love them You get outsourced like everything so all my assignments were outsourced every five grand was outsourced like I literally had like this like Hungarian dude who was like this like product manager at like some like European tech company and He did like the three-year renders and the three drawings this like product that we had a graph and uni assignment I had like this some marketing consultant in like Poland or whatever did like the full market research and the report and that kind of thing I just went through learnt it all like obviously like, you know, Australian eyes are a bit nothing as well I submitted it and like actually did like I think basically like just about the whole group's work Without even doing it like 220 US dollars or something like that But I was able to chip in like 50 bucks come things like four of us and we like got like 96 or something like that'll be a assignment and I like this is just fucking shooting fish out of a barrel It's a way too easy welcome to the several show we have Hirsh in the building. He's a photographer. He's a marketer He's got a marketing agency. He's done things. He's seen some shits and we've come together to discuss everything because of yeah, I mean eight years ago I picked up my camera took a bit more seriously and started Promoting myself and then realizing I'm pretty good at marketing to do but finding someone else in Perth that has the same sort of Way of late. There's you is always an amazing feeling so welcome. Thank you for coming Dude, thank you very much. I mean, this is I was just saying for like this. It's a it's a cool setting It's really nice to actually sit in like a you know a studio that there's there's been a lot of like Incremental work done on it to make it sort of what it is and like it really feels like you know It like it feels it feels just legit in the balsam. So yeah, we can end what up Well, hopefully hopefully we can make it more of a feeling in the future where the behind-the-cameras Stuff that we look at is a bit more aesthetically pleasing as well But some when what people see is I guess the nice things The the backdrop actually it was meant to just be that gentleman's club vibe that and that it For for the longest time and I just withheld any personal branding on there And then I just couldn't help myself It was just started with the baseball and then we've got well This is bright tank that's the sponsor and then I put my albums in here because they look sick And then now I've got all these other little dude out as an incorporate albums as well. Yeah, thank you. Yeah Well, which of the four albums just for the for the listeners only we've got Frank Oceans orange We've got the Wu Tang classic We've got Led Zeppelin's how the West was one which is the greatest live recording of all time and Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moot Definitely out of the woods hanging off. It's also like you know hip-hop's 50th birthday this weekend as well I'm which is like which is just insane. It's it's it's nuts at like the biggest genre in the world was like As you can see like 50 years ago. Yeah, it's insane. Yeah, that's it It's cool and like obviously like started and pioneered very much by like the Wu so yeah, absolutely and With me with hip-hop. I wasn't really the biggest stand back in the day I was more a punk rock guy, you know the blink. Yeah, there's a shoes and then I remember in year nine one of the guys I was mate's fit. He was the center Nwa easy is specifically more easy music and I was like, what's this? And that's how I kind of started discovering that whole thing with big E2 pack and things like that and now it's like I mean everyone's a wants to be a hip-hop artist. How do you find in the music scene now compared to like? Even like a decade ago, man. I I Genuinely love it all. Hey, they're like like all the plastic stuff I still listen to it like very very very much I'm all the like it all roost stuff as well like actually to be fair like I know when I go on like rap caviar I'm spotify and that kind of thing Oh, I think I finally got to the stage where I'm just like, oh I don't recognize like 30% of the artists and that's when I know that I'm just kind of like I'm maybe not like moving as far forward with the sound as as like a sort of like as a sort of would be but I like a lyricist like sort of through through like I love I just love like neuricism Yeah, and I feel like obviously like 808s and like the heavy beats and like all the you know The the full sort of trap sound and the in the twerk sound and that kind of things is absolutely awesome But it's like it's awesome in the same way that like short-form content is also like you know bite-sized chunks kind of thing But it was just like really kind of sinking by really just sinking into something Yeah, I feel like it's it's becoming like more and more and more rare to find those kinds of artists But like there's still like a lot of bodies of work They're like still come out and you just sort of listen to them and you're just like hell Yeah, like you know that that classic sound is like still a lot dead like I've had all sort of thing that but Definitely definitely definitely just like frothing the Continual progression of just about like like every not just in music But it's some culture of life and just like you know in my life and that kind of thing as well I was and like I don't think like I want to ever be that that guy that's stuck in like a certain like those But then the olden days like oh yeah back to my dad this thing out like oh, you know These kids don't listen like it's getting more blah blah blah while they don't make them like they used to isn't like that There's there's everything magic to every single era. That's it. Yeah, well speaking of fraud speaking of adversaries We have this is a great segue the draft pale lager That just recently came out and they're already sold out of it. I'm really already sold out of them So the 20th anniversary on the can the draft the guy from the Australian rapper in your artists 20th anniversary on there. You've got on the side here the his album is This is this the album that isn't like the 20th like is it is this album 20 years old and it is a It's it's celebrating his new one. Yeah, unreal. I better check this because that's that's that's where I'm at That's where I'm out with hip-hop because I haven't been listening to the latest stuff in a long time and Like what you said before like I appreciate the the music But man, I'm stuck in the in the stoner inch. Really. I should remember in high school man being like a being a hella draft fan And like like some it's like some of you this sort of more undergrad was a hip-hop kind of back in the day It was like super super super cool and it was like actually really cool because like I think this is going back I came out four or five years ago. I was like on this like road trip in like New Zealand like with the boys and Like that's when I was doing my arm I was I was doing a lot of consistent like drone content drone photography and that I think and then Like I think let's just try to sort of shared one of my arm. Cheers. Oh, cheers. The Western Strait Bay sort of sharing One of my boats so they're like out of the blue like as in draft isn't like The OG draft I just ran me hit me up be like hey, man I love your content blah blah blah blah blah blah And then I was like, you know trying to be like, oh, you know Whenever you're shooting your music video or whatever like to help me out But you know like keep me up kind of thing. I like happen to do anything for you or whatever But it was just like it was it was it was a bit of a cool sort of a full circle moment Because I was just like dude when I was like obsessed with photography like back of the day when I was a lot younger and that kind of thing I'm the she'd be like editing videos editing videos and photos for like my Sony FX wanted like my Canon 40d Like while banging draft and that kind of thing it evens to have that logo to like Instagram BM quality. She was like super cool So just to again fact check myself It's the Celebrated the 20th anniversary of his debut album power rider and that is so yeah But I said before 20th anniversary Cheese to that album. So yeah, that is a big cheers to that fucking good timing with the 50th anniversary, too Yeah, how do you like on the flavor? Yeah, delicious, man. Delicious. So this is um bright tank East Perth Mm-hmm. Yeah, not tasty as and I mean like it's you know It's a good beer when you can have it like I know like before lunch time and like it still goes down like real smooth Like I was like I was having a coffee like you said I can do a good thing It's like coffee into like a 4.2% larger man It's like it's gotta be a good louder for it to like feel like that good this early exactly Yeah, that's like where I haven't had beer for the longest of time. I'm more brown red wine So um, but the the big difference with bright tank for example, especially a local Brewery is there's no shitty aftertaste I see a lot of these craft beer places. No, what are the technically is craft beer, but for me, it's like It's it's It feels like it's just been around forever Just because there's no shitty aftertaste But I hear when I feel that shitty aftertaste from a pale or whatever IPA or whatever. It's just like Man, you guys didn't get this right, but maybe my palettes just not not with it But even that they're hazy lagers They're and they're the darker lagers and all those Um, and specifically that IPA's I never really liked them You know how bright tanks won't sounds biased because you know they're sponsored, but I actually like them. Yeah, you know when I tried them, um more recently at the gap sting. I'm like I can drink this I can drink more than one of these and not put it there standing. Yeah, it's the hand They have a uh, they have a um They have a double one and a triple one And that's it's a that's a big percentage that one It's also you know what what you're sort of saying about the um Like how even though I haven't been like around for a long period of time and um, and also like it is like, you know It is like a craft for in that I don't know as well It's like when you're like just that fucking good something like your first drop or something that you drop in the first Like two or three years of your career like for example something like this like can still be a time of spastic It's like, you know tying it back to hip-hop. It's like Like Kendrick's first couple of albums like I'm a star six like still go back and just which you know Batting in good kid mat city like we're almost weekly like kind of still and like that's like super super super early on This career, but you don't have to be in the game for a long time before you like start dropping plastic I don't think like if you're good at something you're just fucking good. Yeah, the money trees song recently been viral again on uh tiktok Oh really and uh kind of ruined it for me for a little while because they do that fast speed up Yeah, they're doing at the moment and I'm just like, oh no But he's getting a lot more listens now, which is cool. Um his latest album There's tracks on there that I really like but it's not as good as his previous ones. Yeah, that dam was dam But yeah, big kid mat city was I got on on vital final Yeah, butterfly. Yeah, so good. So good even is um that I'm titled weird one that he has. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a banger and um I just want more of that. I want more of those kind of releases Whether it's from him Who else is due for one that's that that should be I mean Kanye Kanye's been Kanye. I'd love to see him release something. Yeah graduation again Like one of the um, there's no sorry or a new artist come up, you know, it's like there's just something about like, um There's a lot of videos still saved on my phone that like I still watch like I used to watch it every single day But it was like, um, never really watch it. Like, I know, you know, like once a month or something like that. It's um, the first time, um Kanye is um The first time Kanye is previewing like never never let us down on college drop out for Pharrell in the studio back in like 2003 when he's on the come up kind of thing And he's just like, um, like it's the first time they've actually met the first time they're gonna link up in the studio And he's basically just like played this like he's just played this track Like it's still raw. It's like the final cut and it's kind of like wrapped his burst like um, like over the beat kind of thing and just like see Pharrell's like eyes Just like light up light up light up light up light up light up light up light up And then as soon as like he just like finished the verse like It's like you can just tell that like Pharrell who's obviously like at that point Like, you know, like a super reduced kind of thing like already like in his own right just like he's just going like Losing his mind a thing and it's just like But it's it's it's like the thing that I get to for me is like first of all it's like the the Joy of creation like massively it's like super inspirational But like Kanye's reaction like afterwards when Pharrell who was like massive at the time I heard this for the first time he was like so knowing that like it's like yeah, I'm you react that way because it's like that Fucking good, but it wasn't like Back then it wasn't for like an egoic perspective But no, like there was so much like love certainty confidence and creation like basically put into this thing um That I had to not be good and it's just like I still watch that like every now and again Because I'm just like fuck that would bring that to like everything that I best and do Yeah, as in like, you know just with with so much like genuineness and like authenticity that like when it comes out And it's like really good and like people are just like really just like, you know Super oppressed like whether it's like, you know client work or just like something else kind of thing is like It's I don't want to it's almost like you want to be so good that you don't mind blowing by the results that you Best and get it's like what you do that was going to happen kind of early Yeah, absolutely I like the the story of dre and m&m getting together that first time as well similar similar vibes And I was watching jay-z and timberland Just the other day where he um, he was they were mixing together and you Timberland was showing him all those samples. Yeah, and then he dropped this one track and jay-z is just like It's just a one. Yeah. Yeah, you don't want theory. Good body. Yeah Yeah, and then like even how can you um saying through the wire with his yeah with his Yeah, cuz yeah up to the heart. Yeah, you obviously watch the documentary I just like I was like especially especially that first episode Oh, we're like, you know, even just like that they'll like rent a random house and like jenny fox So it comes in and like jenny fox security huge the time they guys and no no like don't do it like that Like do it like this kind of thing as I'm just so certain the vision and what was super cool about that was just like Once again, it was he was already making a decent living living in york and that kind of thing just from the beats There's all of this like like the college dropout was like extracurricular But like extracurricular from the point like he made it from He was just like passionate love run and like he didn't need that to survive And that's why I think it was just like such a fucking puns. Yeah, it's a beast kind of thing But yeah, no that documentary man, like I watched it like I watched that first episode I think at least three times and like every sync like Yeah, he doesn't matter how like loopy or crazy or just like, you know, whatever the fuck he basically does now Is and like just knowing that that was like Like I've always got love for it. Basically like just like for that season. It was like a very kind of thing So I think uh going into your world now And relating to that Where did you start in this creative game? So basically, um, like whether where the journey started for me was I like, you know in in school and that kind of thing like high school Like I was always like, you know, quite like I was pretty book smart. Like, you know, when did you graduate? Uh, 2010. Yeah. Yeah. So graduate 2010 Um, it's going back to you know 12th or 10th. So I mean you're a surgeon. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah 10 30 to see up um, and um, the thing was it's like, you know, I like most kids kind of thing like you just like, you know, you're You're more concerned with like like like fitting in partying girls or that sort of stuff Rather than like, you know, what I want to do with my life sort of thing Um, but like the subjects I was really good at um in I guess in in high school like naturally they'd be down a path of like just doing engineering Like university and like, you know, me and my family are super close as well Dad's like an engineer I'll see like look up to him and that kind of thing So just started to sort of like go down that pathway, but it just like became super apparent like Within the first of like year year and a half that like as it like my soul was not lit I'll fire at all by that kind of work and like I'm super grateful and super glad There's a lot of people's like souls that are lit on fire by that kind of work because obviously it's like, you know None of this would be possible without like here's an engineering kind of thing But for me it just because like it just wasn't doing it It sort of got to the stage where I was just like as a person I was like I was like leveling down because the thing that like was meant to be my career in my life was just like Not like I get lighting me up So he didn't like incentivize me to like become the best version myself for trying to sell it like as much as possible kind of thing so I was obviously like party a lot Drink a lot like, you know, just cramming for exams I get like average braids and I think just like posting through and I was just like fuck man Like this this can't be like What the rest of life's basically like kind of thing but you didn't know sort of what was next and then um, you know Doing doing the whole like euro the the the Perth winter euro summer kind of thing like like everyone basin does like back in 2013 like I just remember like, um Me and my best mate were just like, um Having some pre-drinks and I was like in the shower Like, you know pretty drunk and that kind of thing to sort of come out and I'm just like mad I'm gonna like quit engineering and like just get into marketing kind of thing because I just feel like That's what I was meant to be and then like he was like dude like Every single one of us could have told you this like three years ago before you thought you took black started You kind of see so what made you think you were good at marketing? It was actually more sales. Okay. Um, because I'd always been like, you know I I got my first sales job when I was like sort of 17 like still in um, still in uh, like late Like so late high school sort of early uni and it was like, you know your typical first sales job It was like cold point for Telstra basically Yeah, um, but I was putting up like crazy numbers Like really really really crazy numbers to the point where now that I think about like what I could have Erd if I just did that for like five years as opposed to going uni or whatever It would have been like just nuts Um, what do you think you've got that talent pro? I think it was he was one of those I kind of just born that way type situation. Yes. Yes I've always just been like a good communicator. Um, like just confident in my speech like and um I'd though just Naturally not afraid of rejection. Did that kind of make sense? Yeah So it was it was probably just like a fundamentally like wiring thing in my brain It's like I was sort of born that way Yeah And every single like I was always in sales roles even like, you know My first job was in food for walking the box But then like my second third fourth job was like, you know sales for camera house then JD high-fived and Telstra It was all just sales sales sales So it was just like the revenue generation side of things and whatever that kind of went into It was like obviously like sales on the on the on the on the top end But then like obviously like marketing sort of like leading up to the sales kind of thing Uh, and there's no sales degree at university because like I guess my mindset was still a little bit, um Imature at that time thinking that like I need to get a degree to do to do this sort of stuff First um, yeah the classic, right? But what was nuts was I was like reflecting on like my journey like even back at that time I was just like man since I was seven I was like starting businesses and like actually making money Like when I was seven years old living in Kenya kind of thing. Yeah But Judy was also like a really good time So I made this switch um like because it was sort of like naturally internally kind of what I was But still like had no idea like what I wanted to do with with my career So like afterwards getting into the marketing side of things um And then basically what happened was um effectively um I as I switched like everything started like falling into place because like, you know when you're living Or you're doing stuff. It's more aligned with kind of who you authentically are basically. Yeah, like I mean, yeah Yeah, I think that the thing is like obviously starts sort of falling into plates and then um Like, you know blitz through the first couple years of that and then like towards the end I was still like quite under stimulated because like obviously universal system just like keeps you like super super super average Like, you know, you really rig a special into the fields that we're in it's like you always do exponentially better if you're not Going down that pathway um Like in a vast majority of cases and like, you know, I went back in like after I started my business and I come Think and do a few lectures at uwa and that's a staff and I was just like being in the real world and like being in That field and then going back was just like The difference that's just Raising between like the reality and like this bubble that you're basically putting that's a problem where the students That graduate class will go straight into uni. Don't get to experience the real world first And I've I've been an advocate for this for the last train for years. You need at least two gap years Yeah, but to make this a school and uni if you want to go to uni you need two gap years It's like it's like the armish they have that theme where they they become of age and they can you know Go see the real world for a year And they have to come back. Uh, they don't have to come back, but once they don't come back they get bad edge Yeah, um And most of them return But some don't you know, but they see the real world. It's just like, oh fuck. Maybe I need to do this instead This makes more sense. So you were um, so you realized that internally. Yeah Um, did you did you have a gap? No, I didn't have a gap But what was really cool was um, so I when I like I had this huge like epiphany process kind of like around One like one to like one year to 18 months before I graduated kind of thing like where I just kind of like I don't know what it was But like the wool of just like the difference between like this simulation and like the real world that I was basically living in like The whole curtain just kind of came down and they just like needed this massive urgency I was just like holy shit like the last five years while they've been a ton of fun Like have not prepared me in any way shape or form for like you the next phase of life They'd have to get like super super super clear of kind of like exactly what I wanted Um, and that was when I was just like, you know rapidly applying for every single internship Every single advertising and marketing agency and firm and that kind of thing that could possibly get into You get some kind of like real like real world experience And then basically like no luck. No luck. No luck. No luck. No luck And it was around the time where like it was, you know, one of those classic things is in like, you know, the um the The get rich quick like make money or blind type like, you know, I don't see like just about ever and and obviously I'm ticked up now It's like, you know, everything is like had had a scale from like, you know, zero six Because like, you know, when you're 17 years old with like one skill, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah But obviously in that age, it was like really kind of speaking to me so the thing So, you know, what fucking if all the like now know that obviously what you see on the internet and football Reality is like two very different things But like if only like random people are just like making all this kind of money like, you know, like online Like why can't I just like start my own business? But that was the seed that I basically needed it was like one of those one of those ads And then I was just like, well, how do you even get clients? I was working in JB hi-fi at the time in Osborne Park And I was just like, do you know what? Because when you're working there, people come in there and make personal purchase or business purchases Every single person, I guess they put their business name on the invoice or on the receipt I'm going to ask them what they do and I'm just going to like offer them like Marketing services. Oh, you'll be another little cheeky salesman in sort of little table Yeah, the last 50 salesman is out of JB hi-fi But that was around the time where like, you know, you to me at lynda.com would just like I think You to me only it just kind of become like even like sort of slightly sort of semi-popular or whatever But like in in a very very very niche part of the world kind of thing because like, you know In 2014, like inside mothman was still like pretty on the ground. I mean skill share I remember skill share come on about and then yeah, you dammy. Yeah And then lynda.com was kind of one of the OG's and it was like around the time I was really kind of getting into podcasting and stuff and like all these companies are sponsoring these podcasts So like I actually I learned a bit about SEM SEO a bit about web development. That's the stuff and then one guy Um, like came in he ran at the modular housing studio. Whereas I converted shipping containers into modular housing pods And then basically, uh, he was like chuck the business name or the invoice and then like I just like offered him my marketing services Write my phone number down in the back of a jami i-fi card Uh, then he called me up And then he was just like, um, we caught up for coffee. Like, you know, he lived in skyber Isn't it was Nathan like still like such a top G and like I every whenever I hit a new business master there I was just like literally sending like a mesh of linters So like man, thank you so much. You're kind of like changing my life because he was the first client Yeah, and then I was like, you know 14 months away from my graduating university Already had my first client. He very quickly realized that I didn't know what I was doing But like he loved the hustle loved the mentality and like Working with him like once again another curtain was just kind of revealed because like he already had a team of everyone Who helped the Philippines and Bangladesh and India and that that thing like on a digital sort of side of things Like helping him out with everything this business and like I was exposed to Outsourcing up work e-lands like you know back in the e-lands days before he became up work Um And like that age and then like had I still had like, you know, 12 months of university to go And then like after three or four months of work with him. I was just like Because I learned so much in that time. I was just like I could like if I just Colt because this is back when tradespeople were getting all their work off of gumtree And like gumtree was massive like finding trades on the theme whereas like now it's like it's not kind of thing That's like obviously high pages and service seating blah blah blah blah blah So I was like It was around the time because I was learning a bit a bit about scm a bit about sco That's what stuff I was like if I could basically like get tradies off of gumtree and building their own websites and like Like his gumtree is an asset owned by someone else. Where's your own website? You're yeah, you need it off. He's gonna add it owned by you. Yeah, you see to do that You need to have that Hold on it. You can't you can't be vulnerable to somebody else exactly And I was like if I could like get tradespeople To stop doing that and then doing this and like increasing the average job price and increasing this and building the online Reputations and this and that and the other and like it was just me doing the sales and marketing and then like Like, you know, having this like team overseas where like, you know, obviously like this And this study a couple of like a couple years after the four I work would sort of came now But I had that sort of epiphany And then basically with like yeah, 12 or 13 months to go with uti I um I spent like my goal that summer was like more and get like 10 clients as like web development Clients kind of thing and it was like, you know, lent on the training that I've actually had Cold cold. Yeah in the Telstra days and it was yeah, like, you know, me my iPhone 3 or my iPhone like four or something like that and I was just like cold calling trades out of like, you know, um off of gumtree And within the space of three months, like, you know, by the time that uni got away at bat It was I was working like six seven hours a day on the business Like then going to uni at like, you know, two or three pm and finishing all the uni work and stuff Going training coming home around that routine for the whole year And what was just like magical was like at the start of that year I wrote down like all the things that sort of wondered by the end of uni The thing I was like, I want to be living like on the river You know, we've made so that also entrepreneurs and like all these different I want to make like since big as another business kind of thing And it was nuts like as a You know, 22 year old uni student kind of thing I like made my first six figures like while still At uni at uni and what was nuts was like my uni results were amazing like that year as well because Um, I love then you get outsourced like everything So all my assignments were outsourced every five grand was outsourced Like I literally had like this like Hungarian dude It was like this like product manager at like some like European tech company And he did like the 3d renders and the 3d drawings this like product that we had to grab a uni assignment Then I had like this um marketing consultant in like Poland or whatever did like the Full market research and the report and that kind of thing I just went through Learned it all like obviously like, you know, Australian eyes are a bit nothing I think as well like submitted it and like actually did like I think basically like just about the whole group's work Without even doing if like 220 us dollars or something like that But it's been able to chip in like 50 bucks kind of things like four of us And we like got like 96 or something like that all the assignment And I like this is just fucking shooting fish out of a barrel It's had way too easy and then by the time uni was finished man I was like already off the races and then like That taught me as soon as The whole power of single focus like that second year so 2016 when I was like My first year actually probably running my business and that kind of thing Like when you go all in on something you don't just like you don't just to exit like if you double your time in there You can like five exit Because like obviously like when your focus is just like super super super money not in and it was it was cool Because like six figures was revenue like obviously I've had a lot of outsource bit like you know outsource costs and that kind of thing as well but When you're that age you're living super lean. I had more than enough to like You know move out Get my own place and then the people that I met through somebody's like online entrepreneurship circle facebook groups Like had a house on the foreshore and purse Like that was kind of like in the thing that I sort of wrote down And then I moved in with a couple of like a red or white. No, no, no, we just rented it But it was fucking awesome. Um, because then all of a sudden like we literally had a house with like As me gone in christian like, you know christian was like a videographer He's like still a videographer like super talented. He's amazing at what he does And he was also in his business and then like gun the other guy that was living there like, you know Still really close with him as well He was going his business and then like um, he's part of the time is when we heard business and like I was there growing minds It was like a it was like a it was almost like a hostile a party space a shared workspace And like a house can like all rolled into one kind of thing and that one year of just being in that environment where Entrepreneurship and all the craziness and that whole journey was so normalized and so normal and like all that reality This kind of thing like that basically like, you know Elated the business to the point where I was just like I don't ever need to think about like a fallback option or doing anything else and that kind of thing as well Like this is like, how did you feel to me? um at weirdly at the time, um It was already quite normal So I guess I didn't I because the last sort of part-time job that I had was like when I was working in jabby hi-fi basically Um, so I don't I don't I don't really know what it's like to sort of Work full time for someone else that a roll V maybe not passionate about and like enjoy that comes to sort of doing your own thing Um, so I didn't really have that tough kind of comparison point But I just remember like like the the energy that I still have and the energy that like I had even like back then And that kind of thing as well. There was just like there was no stop button Not being like an unhealthy way, but just in like a How much life across everything can be maximized in this period of time So when you're in that house with those other um hustlers Um What drove you being there obviously being surrounded by others who are doing it? You're not competing against each other But you're kind of keeping each other like waving each other up in a good way massively What what was that kind of like that? Because your energy right now and just this is it. This is what I'm doing and that single focus mindset as well What drove you in that space to go? I want to go as hard and fast and as high as I can Um, I think that was a a big part about that was just like, um, I think some of it fundamentally comes down Just sort of like who you are as a person. Yeah, some people um, some people like A way more sort of chug out lifestyle some people why just like energy energy energy now I'm gonna output so a bunch of it was probably inherent Well, a bunch of it was I know was definitely inherent But what was really cool was again, it's just like, you know the magic of the of the 1am on saturday morning chats like I have you finish Finish working at like, you know, like 9 p.m. On a friday or whatever and the wings It was like right there because living on the foreshore We just go out for a couple beers and then come back and then like, you know, you're sitting on the couches like with Four other people or three other people and then like more entrepreneur offense kind of coming over and like the expanse and chats They're having at that age just like so far outside of like the norm kind of thing Um, and then everyone's listening to different podcasts. Everyone's listening to different books Everyone's like consuming different content of like, you know different people from like Europe across the Americas or like, you know Even some African entrepreneurs and that kind of thing as well and you're just like in this world where You're experiencing the journey But you're consistently hearing the stories of everyone that's like Like climbed not just the first now under like multiple mountains and you kind of sort of seen what like it's almost collaborative Super collaborative and I think the biggest thing just sort of drives like what that was driving me back then So sort of is now is like There's no end to it And there's always bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger like cooler and cooler and cooler levels to everything um And it's totally your choice as to when you want to like sort of step aside and go on like the side quest Or you want to just like keep just climbing the mountain climbing mountain like a mountain kind of thing But it was just consistently seeing everything that was possible by four other the three or four other people that you're living with That also consistently seeing what's possible. Yeah So you just live in this like beautiful delusional reality where everyone's killing it every He's like flying there's growth everywhere And there's like cool it a bit of ideas and like all those different sort of stuff and it just he keeps you going It's like a few so how do you how do you get to the point where you're running an agency now as a marketing agency? Um, oh back to when you were starting to get your clients. You obviously got more and more clients What was the successful factor for them? Like how did how did you help them out specifically? Yeah, so back then it was um Well back then and and now it's sort of very similar It's basically just like we help them achieve whatever their growth goals work Um, so we don't work with everyone. We work with um Privately service-based businesses. Um, you know, we don't do sass. We don't do e-com We don't do online courses like consultants that kind of thing as well service-based service-based services across professional services trades and home improvement tourism adventure a lot of stuff as well And every single one of our clients are on their own growth journeys as well Um, you know some are going from like one to two million some are going from 10 to 20 Some are going from like a hundred. We've got some clients that are doing a hundred million dollars of revenue You're going to a billion like that kind of thing as well, which is really cool um and it really is just like Helping them Get to where they want to get to in their phase of life like right now through sort of like holistic kind of full So there's digital advertising so just facilitating that transformation of business through the tools that we're kind of really good at and you know, whether that's like, um Redoing the their brandy and their entire website on this online presence Helping connect with like, you know, bigger and better customers and that kind of thing as well Or if they've already got the messaging and that kind of thing now it in just like Driving as many people looking exactly for their services and convincing them as like, you know Why this business is like the right choice? Yeah, it's either like consulting and helping their sales teams like obviously Like, you know closing all deals like off the leaves that are sort of coming through It's just like Whatever we sort of need to do and we we codified it and we've put it into like, you know Some really like dialed in kind of service offerings, but really is just like with the With the a to b b to c c to d, you know, all the way to z kind of agency sort of thing um that can really just like Look at exactly what you need to get to whatever your next level kind of is and then just work with you And like nurture you on a moth to mark basis to like make sure you so you get that And how do you measure that success from what you've done for the client so they can go? Yes, this is working Well, it's um, but that's obviously like why I love the digital advertising space it is Is the most Quantifiable as in like you have spent this and we have got you this and this is like literally like quite literally The results that you sort of basically getting as well You know everything from like website traffic to like the number of conversions to the number of like leads that basically come through to The number of like, you know soft conversions like brochure downloads and this and that like, you know What's what's sort of come off the back end of this and like how can it They have to basically improve this off like, you know off the back end of like These leads and that kind of thing that are basically come through to how many of those deals will be basically closed Like has that been improving over the last few months? You know like let's just like take a moment to see like you were doing like literally 20k a month like In, you know, January and now in all this year at like 64k a month like and take a second to be like, that's fucking epic And you've got like, you know three bands on the road now and all that stuff as well um, and a lot of it just sort of comes down to like, you know Um, there's the stuff that we can measure and then there's a stuff that we can't measure that we can inspire So like, you know, all we can measure is like like leads Sales traffic like impressions like all the thing that like, you know, all the different things that basically like Showcase your basic brand growth and then the things that we can base inspire is like, you know, you could have two identical businesses um You know, both of which might receive like um 100 leads over two months that are all really qualified They might they might both both close like 50% levels into like sales kind of thing But off the back end of that, how do they then nurture those customers? But they turn every customer into a five star google review a five star facebook review Do they then have a referral program for every single one of those customers? A lot of that sort of stuff is kind of like driven by like who the business owner is and like kind of Where they sort of want to go so we inspire those kinds of internal changes Um, and like, you know, two people with the exact same results One might become a 20 million dollar business in like 10 years kind of thing And one might be like so the the tutor library kind of like just based on like the back end of the front end stuff That we can always win. Yeah, I find that like people ask me to help them with their content But then there's so many deeper aspects of the aspects Yeah, and I'm coming in going I don't know. I don't know if I want to help because your website shit. Yeah, you know, yeah, but I don't do websites or um, how do you Let's say you go viral and they're coming to your website and it is good. How do they how do you then convert them? and A part of me wants to You know go into that, but I just want to help like, you know, like the consulting side of it Yeah, and I don't really like the word consulting especially with all these memes and shit coming out, but yeah, yeah, but what does the consultant actually do? Yeah, yeah, but um, yeah for for my journey. I um Got getting into, you know, the creative space and people asking me So how did you book out your business for two years? As a as a using tick tock organically I'm like, I can teach you that I can tell you how I did it and people pay money Hmm But then their actions don't Relate to what I taught them and I've got a teaching degree. I taught maths in school and I'm just like, okay Start a brand build it get a logo. You know all that basic shit And I'm like, I don't I don't want to make a logo for you. I can't be fine Yeah, now I'm starting to build that like team of people around me Um people who didn't refer that to the stuff out to believe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and it's I'm getting there Yeah, but I don't I don't I always also don't know if I Want to be in there? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because like I like business and I like to you know build my empire and all that shit But I I want to go back to like the core For me is helping internal marketing teams. Yeah, for example But man some of the clients I've had oh It's like And it goes back to the whole uni thing you go you go from school go to uni and a lot of these people they Get their atar schools or te schools back in our day And uh, they get the marketing degree Um option because that was the the only one they could get Then they get their first job or the whatever and they're overwhelmed with what they have to do You're a marketer. Okay. Uh, can you run our socials for us? But I don't want to do that part. I'm gonna do PR or something. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm trying to navigate That yeah at the moment like sometimes I don't have imposter syndrome anymore. That's gone Um, but I have like this Something else from like do I want to do this? Uh as well Yeah, because my core is helping people teaching them how to make organic content at scale. You saw the app Yeah, yeah, I know that shit back to front. Yeah, but when I see the gaps the other gaps I'm like, fuck maybe the marketing agency thing is not a bad idea But then I'm like, I don't want to do that. So give you another example. I was a personal trainer earlier um, 2013 and um Little two pts and like sales people then get into markets Oh, you know, it's like dude like digital like the old digital content market Yeah, it's like people like you and people like me like that's the whole fucking game Yeah, but like that's so I was making 50 grand a year as a pt Doing full-time uni. Yeah, and I was doing 50 sessions a week And I was playing in the waffle at the same time on the way as I was just like this sucks Yeah, all of this sucks. I didn't have that single mind focus Yeah, and I didn't really do as good in footy that I wanted to be in and that's a high level of football But I never progressed further with my pt because well, I got my teaching degree. So I became the teacher But um the one barrier that I stopped at was having to hire more people to help me Yep And now I'm working through that again Um, I'm just thinking do I want to do it? I'm giving it a go And I'm liking it, but man, it's fucked Yeah, it's fucked. So what advice would you have for someone who's pivoting now or up or leveling up From doing solopreneurship to real entrepreneurship where you know, you know, you're the CEO and you're You're you're building a team and you're putting out fires So it's um, I've just literally um gone through that Amazing like morphing and like transformation like the actual myself as well. Yeah, because um, like, you know, two to three months ago We just hired a um, basically like, you know, like my introverted kind of thing Um, and actually I was chatting to him because he's he's been following your stuff I'm like, you know, ticked up an Instagram and stuff for a while and said, how you got a decision man? There's free fucker. I got And um, basically he's just like, you know, he's Like he's got the same time in the game as basically I do which is um, which is amazing But like in in I went down the pathway building up the business and he went down the pathway Which is becoming an incredible full stack full service digital market across absolutely everything Yeah, um, and he's got a very good operations one and that kind of thing as well So now having a general manager basically won the entire business and you cloned him So can you clone him? Do you know what's crazy? I think there's well, there's like he is He is super special in every some way, but there's more of them out there and I know it for sure Have you fallen someone like that? So this was really um I've been working with my business coach Pete for um the last sort of like two years and a big part of that was like Really nailing down for a key hire like that. I mean, we've got an incredible team like we've got like I think we're up to yeah, we're actually up to 12 stuff now, which is amazing and um, I'm Pretty much off the day-to-day operations of business, which is absolutely fantastic I'm still like the um the director of growth and the CEO basically. Um, but that's when we probably Um gone soon in the next sort of like six to 12 months Because we'll hire sales director and that kind of thing as well and really kind of get to that next level sort of thing but um Getting extremely extremely extremely crystal clear up on the profile and the journey of that person Specifically in your in like for your needs that they have to sort of go through Before you base it hire them is extremely important like a like a system Not even like a system just like a like a Look at your own journey and then think about like who's been through that journey Might as the entrepreneurship piece by the intrapreneurship piece. Yeah, intrapreneurship the intrapreneurship means kind of things So it's like, you know for for us on this one. I was like, well if they're gonna run the entire team First of all, they have to be like a really good being personal really really empathetic Like so they need to have like some kind of like You know some kind of experience in coaching or they need to be like, you know really experience and be like Sports captain or leading a team and this this this this that kind of you know That that sort of thing because like that's obviously like the kind of person that can like really like hold their own as a leader or like a team of people and like Bring people together and making feel really comfortable and that kind of thing And then like from the technical sort of side of things. It was like Well, I'm a full sector marker purely based on like complete and utter experience in the trenches for like a long period of time So this person also needs to sort of have to have had sort of come through that journey as well So needed to go from like a okay an account quarter edge or strategies to like not as a senior account advantage of this this this this this this this this And they also now need to be in the stage of life where they They want to have their big next growth Um And kind of step into like basically like the leadership role kind of thing So when we got really clear on that and a big part of the really clear on that was like getting laser focused In all the stuff that I was spending my time doing and what was holding me back from like getting to my next level in terms of like the stuff that I kind of needed to focus on and I thought That it was I thought that it was operations But it wasn't operations It was mainly strategy because I was at the highest level digital strategy of my company and just that clear thing Had I had hired someone that was like more focused on the operations on the side of things Like I would not be in this amazing position that I'm now just three months after hiring that person because like kind of coming into our business was like The most it already has been the most transformative thing of like all time Which has been like incredible and like I'm already like I'm having a bit of an identity crisis now myself because I'm just like Oh my god, like 80 percent of what I did Has now been like replaced by someone better than me So how do you how do you navigate that with them? Knowing that if they leave You're back into that again So that doesn't scare me because uh and and you can't lead with that fear And the reason you can't leave with that fear is like It's it's at the same things like you know if you're in a relationship with like some of your love It's like there was a period of time where you were like really happy without that person going to see so and my journey It's like the whole thing about like business being like really hard and really tough and blah blah blah and like you know Like long days, late nights, blah blah, you know what kind of thing It's true, but it doesn't have to be difficult And I know that if I had to go back and do that again and find another person To do that same role like while it would be an inconvenience like Once you reach a level where you know that this avatar of human being needs to be in that role kind of thing It's actually not the most difficult thing of all time to even like replace that person basically Because now I know everything that I'm basically looking for and while like every single person every single one every single seat is special and absolutely awesome My belief is there's always even for me. I think there's someone out there There's better than me at running my business But they don't want to take on the role of the business CEO and like ownership Yes, but I genuinely believe that there's probably someone out there They could actually run my business and want to take on that role Like better than I could and like having that mindset is really cool because I'm just like For me it keeps me super humble because I'm like there's someone out there And they can do it like bigger better faster cheaper than I can Um and and also with all my team members and stuff like love them dearly. They're all legends and like, you know But every single time we've had to move on a team member or let go of a team member bar There were placement the person that comes in Has whether it's magic or they're ever been lucky or whatever has always just been like, um better in that role From in almost all aspects as well. So even even though like it's Anyone can leave at any time. I've I've kind of already made peace with that I've already made peace with back then like Norton would be forever kind of thing But when you elevate yourself to a level where you can like you see the pieces of the game and you can see like All the roles in basically having that kind of thing It just becomes a matter of just like finding an avatar that fixed that role then just like a gazing in almost Yeah, yeah, it really is a game. How do you do that in Perth? Um once again, it's it's the whole like I I am really well networked with a lot of different owners and different people in marketing and like, you know recruiters internal marketing manager like, ah, like hey finding all these staff members bubbly There is an abundance of epic people out there, man. Like I don't think there's a staff shortage. I think there's like a There's a there's a there's not a staff shortage there's a like a recruitment skill shortage and there is a mindset shortage of like The kind of people that could basically like run a specific role Yeah I don't think there's a shortage of people um because like, you know just little things like people like um a couple of ages The others that I shan't do about like really being excited about hiring general manager They were just like and how did you like get so long? We've been trying for ages. I can't find anyone I was just like bro. I've seen your job ads. They fucking suck Like it's like leaked in like, you know like the same shitty job ad like over and over and over again All we did was we just like it's a Christian my old housemate. He's got like um The red dragon like the most fucking epic cinematic camera all time and we brought him into the agency and we shot the Fucking like the coolest recruitment video of all time And it was just like speaking to the soul of the person that I wanted in that role kind of thing And every single one of the candidates that basically saw that was just like that Maybe you want to fucking quit my job and come work for you So we actually had like four candidates of like one of that role And like all four of them would have been a good fit Like probably just like ended up having to be the best hit of all time I'm raising so it's just like the it's like when you're talking about hiring shortage It's like well, what do you like if you put in like a hundred percent more effort than anyone else You wouldn't have a shortage But it's like there is a hiring shortage when every single job looks the same all the salaries are the exact same All the benefits are the exact same like most people mistake benefits Like it's not benefits like the fucking bare minimum that you can do now But like people are telling that benefits kind of thing So I think it's just like if you put in a ton of like if you put your magic into that hiring Into your hiring play as a marketing agency Exactly like how do marketing agencies just like write the same generic copy on their job ads? It's like everyone else why do you think the generic as a marketing agency? Because this is the next question I have for you the gaps in the market Yes, like for me I came in like I was in the classroom still in 2020 And I was meant to take a sabbatical that year, but everybody had the flu And I never got the flu Try avoid that word by the way because I don't want it flagged on Spotify The 2021 I made $400,000 more than my school salary And I was like what the fuck yeah, but that was through my wedding bookings Yeah, and my consultancy and I was a month one man band. Yeah, and I'm like What the fuck do I do now? Yeah, yeah, like what the fuck do I do with this money? Yeah, I figured out what a proprietary limited meant very quickly. Yeah. Yeah Actually six months too late in a sesame. Yeah, but my accountant came in clutch and helped me there Do shout the accountants You gotta find a good accountant and then 2022 last year. I had to take a couple steps back Because I still didn't know what I was doing. Yeah, but it was working. Yeah, and got the studio Was like or others do podcasts. That sounds like fun Still figuring it out. Yeah, but um, yeah, the whole the whole journey And and the reason why I started doing more and more of it was As a creator first, I'm a practitioner. Yeah, you know, yeah, and When I did these collaborations with these agencies, I'm like, this is fucking shit these brands are This isn't good. This isn't a good idea But they're like we'll pay you. I'm like, yeah, but I don't want to put my name on some shit idea Yeah, I've had campaigns all over the place And I'm like, this is a shit idea. Why did I do this for and it represents my branch too But then when I talk to the brand themselves around the agency, I'm like, what the fuck they're like, oh Yeah, that is shit. What are we doing here? And whether it's a local brand or a a national or even international brand I'm like, I know like the international brands have got Fuckloads of money so they don't really care as long as it works. Yeah, if it doesn't work. Oh, well, you know part of the budget's gone Yeah, a fraction of the cost and they have to spend a certain amount every single year Otherwise the CEO is like asking questions like imagine imagine having like yeah millions of dollars to spend if you don't spend it They're like, why don't you spend it? So that's what I mean, right? And that's my I'm trying to navigate that at the moment because my integrity is everything. I want to make sure that I do a good job Everyone. Yeah. Yeah, there's so many ways to navigate that too Like whether the brand goes no, you need to do it like this and I'm like, well sick. I'm out I don't give a fuck I want to do it like this. Yeah, and you know, it needs to be a compromise at least You know, um, and then when I come into brands I've helped many brands out already And the ones that have stuck to it have all done well Like a minimum six months sort of outlay. Yeah, and I'm talking about like tiktok growth and Just general content output to then go viral and then be able to use that viral content with some ad spend behind it Because the public already likes it. Yeah, that was my secret. It's not really a secret. It's common sense But now I'm like navigating through as a As an advisor. Yeah. I call it uncommon sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because people it's obvious, but people don't know but as an advisor, I'm like this is my advice and Why don't you take it on and they're like, oh, we have to run through hoops and shit Like with red rooster when I was managing red rooster's account. I'm just like Look at this last three months. We had 50,000 5000 people grow The account and look at these comments I'm going to red rooster today because of this video That's gold amazing. Yeah, that is fucking you can't buy that comment. No Unless you ask your mate to make the comment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but this is over and over and over again Organically, and I'm like that was 2021. I'm like, fuck. Yeah. I'm on here. Yeah, but then 2022 The whole corporate side I got slapped by it. They're like, we need to do it like this Can we can we run this ad and I'm like, I don't fucking run ads Yeah, and then all of last year I was thinking about fuck. Should I should I start learning ads? Should I start learning facebook ads? I don't want to And then I started to network with a few people and you know the ad world ad world. I'm like, oh, you can do it I met a few talented ads people. I'm like, okay. Well sick. All right So my strategy now is get organic clients build their following and then you can come in up the rear three months later When I've proven my point but man some some brands they just they want to keep everything so Old school. Yeah. Why is that? Why do you think that is? It's like, um, I'm actually it's uh, I'm listening to this book Right now called like um 10x is easier than 2x by Dan Sullivan and Benjamin Hardy and um, like they've got another really good book called who not how Which actually was really instrumental in me hiring the general manager for like, you know, what we're talking about before um, and it's like Literally the whole world runs on like a 2x mindset Which is just like do like by doing more of the same you make enough people happy to Be able to make it just enough progress to keep everyone like somewhat satisfied um And just really really really kind of like that short term that short term r or y they need that short term r or y But that short term r or y is 2x. Yeah, but they don't think about that long term r or which is fucking 10x Yeah. Yeah. Yeah ongoing. Yeah 100 and So how do you navigate that? um, I think a big part of a big part about it is like exactly what you said man like the integrity game like it's we And a lot of it does come with like a certain level of like abundance as well Like, you know, now that you're super established and now that like, you know, everyone knows your name And now that like, you know, you've got like a lot of opportunities you booked out for two years in advance you can just like politely or impolitely say no and give them your honest opinion like Like that because your brand and your integrity is like absolutely everything like we 100% say no to Like probably 70 or 80% of like the clients that are wanting to work with us and that kind of thing as well And not because I don't think they're bad people. It's just like um We're done with 2x thinkers Like just just done with it and also um Like at the end of the day You're only going to be as good as a company that you basically keep and that kind of thing as well So the biggest thing that I've I've just found is like just just saying no And then giving some really really really just like Super open and honest like feedback and then like whatever the hell they want to do with that if they want to be like Well, fuck this guy then That that's on them If they just like go back and have a bit of an epiphany and sort of like, you know transform the internal content department Or the internal marketing department or just a certain system and process or within their company Then that's also awesome. Yeah, or if they just move on to the next person that will kind of give them Like there's a difference between what people want and what people need And often oftentimes like what they think they want is not what they need to kind of get to the next thing You know, obviously like and that's like, you know being a consultant or being a marketer That's like that's like your whole job is to basically like tell people sort of what they need and like Deliver what they need rather than kind of what they want But I think the biggest thing just comes down to like having the courage to say like no Then like the next like it's like the first level is like saying no The second level is just being like I think we should do it this way because if you do it this this And this way you're gonna be stuck in this like you're gonna be stuck in this paradigm of thought and this paradigm of like where you are in the market And x y and z company that are also in your market They're just going to leapfrog you and do if you don't sort of do it this way And then like number three is just being like, hey, you guys are in fucking massive danger If you don't actually sort of you know go through and do this kind of thing I've had this I've had this happen a couple times already And one client I remember last year it towards the ends of last year So they hired me three months sort of stint and I helped them hire an internal creator for their short form content And it was great because it was a mate of mine and I knew he was looking for a job And he was in my opinion the best fit and and he's still he's still there and I was like fucking that's sick And then at that same time I was still establishing the strategy for their social media content campaigns And the marketing manager that hired me She loved it. She's like, yep sick that makes sense. Good. Let's go Started building the system internally because one of the things I do with internal marketing teams is build that system for them So I can walk away Yeah, you know, whether or not that business model is smart. I have that philosophy and personal training I'm like, I'm here to make yourself sufficient And if you like me enough and I've done a good job, you want to keep me and pay me for the Accountability or the bans, right? Someone had a fish, right? Yeah. Yeah, teach matter fish. It's a how much one of my packages is called teach how to fish Yeah, yeah You know scale of fish Teach matter fish. Yeah. Anyway, um in november I said to them you need to go broad I don't care that you have one product and it's worth this much money for this one specific type of demographic and they're like But we don't want we don't want people ringing up asking if we do this service That we don't offer. I'm like, I don't give a fuck and they're like, uh We we don't give a fuck either. We want this one. I'm like Who cares? You're going to get 99 of people calling in saying we want this you can't do that But if you give them advice give them recommendations give them value They're going to come back to you when they're ready for that big product or they're going to recommend someone And I thought back then I was like, I'm on the right spot. Am I doing this correctly? Am I am I wrong? But now 10 months later He goes to me messages me my friend and goes guess what they're doing. They're doing the broad play They've come up with this whole strategy. I'm like, oh, yeah Fucking did that 10 months ago now they're further behind and the funniest thing about that is when they told me back then That they're the head of the market ahead of the game they have to The competition catches up to them and then they have to do something about it to go forward That's the 2x mine thing that you're talking about, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah When I when I heard that I was like, why the fuck would you want to just 2x it? Why not 10x it make it impossible for your competition to even touch you? And now 10 months later. Yeah, create your own lane. So I'm never I'm I'm Dealing with that as well Like convincing those CEOs because a lot of these CEOs they've got that that safety mindset. You know what I mean? So how do I find someone that has that more innovative progressive mindset? Who is a decision maker and is happy to commit to that long-term game because for me There's no such thing as a marketing campaign A marketing campaign is long-term permanent. Yeah, and that's called your brand. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Give me some thoughts Yeah, so it's it's uh, that there's obviously like a like a a lot of different kind of elements into that but I think the the biggest thing is like the the first the first one is Sometimes like people and I know this for my life as well like um as frustrating as it is when I'm Here and people are thinking here I've I've also realized that like It takes some switches and there's different like stimulus and different like catalyst that basically like Trip someone's mind to kind of like start thinking massive as well And even if you can just like literally see the wood from the trees You can like make sense of every single number in the matrix and you're like, this is what you have to do Until someone sees it for themselves It's just never going to happen for them. Yeah, and there's no amount of convincing that you can sort of basically do so I've had a couple of like times where I've basically Like just not so much taking a step back and like stop kind of pushing it But almost just kind of like reflected back their own attitude like towards them and then like they're The better self or their higher level self starts going like Well, nah, like no, I don't really want to be like Like like that or like no, we want to grow like we want to grow like we want to expand and like, um Yeah, like no, I'm not like fully done with it Like I'm still like kind of pretty interested and then like they'll like just by reflecting back as I'm like Actually, no, you're right Like, you know, this thing is going to like dominate the market and that kind of thing as well But hey, if you guys are happy being where you are Um, and you're you're happy for someone else take their market position then like that's cool It's like a little bit like, you know, basically kind of reverse psychology. Well, I tried. I think I feel like I tried that as well I said I said to them, why the Why the fuck do you want to allow your competition to catch up to you and stay stagnant for two years whilst you get ahead? Okay, well, is that does that sound fun to you or would you rather a better alternative? Yeah, you know, take a longer longer approach at it and have a longer gap Later on but um, yeah, I'm still I'm still focusing on that But then for me, it's the sales part. All right. I'm good at sales, but I hate sales Really? I just I don't like asking people for money. I don't I just like helping people. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to help someone Just give value. Yeah, and then they're like several. We're interested in your services. How much do you cost? I'm like, oh, fuck Here we go. Yeah, uh, how much do you have? But like I I dominated that um in personal training. Yeah, I dominated that in wedding photography Um, but this is different. This is a bigger scale, you know the bigger fish to you know, um It's uh, like the last year I've been hungry now. I'm starting to feel satisfied So I'm upping my my rates and stuff and like with collaboration deals in my own brand Um, the other week I was in Queensland doing a wedding and I was looking through emails. I'm like, I can't be fucked So I'm just like it's going to cost this much this much and this much and they're like They always choose the highest package and I've never had that package before but I didn't care It's like dating. Yeah. We don't care Waves and uh, now I'm like, all right, I'm satisfied People are coming to me But I also want to make sure that you know, I do a good job, which is obvious. There's the integrity part Um, but when when they're when different different industries come at me and going, what are you? What are you charge? I still don't like talking about it How do you how do you get through that sort of mindset? And this is specifically to help people with sales? Yeah Yeah, and so I um, I would say that well From from the very beginning of my career. I've been like sort of like a natural born salesperson kind of thing For me, it was just like, you know, only now are we like starting to get like You know quite like as in our pricing is like is like really really really sort of up there as well You know sort of like yours as well. Um, and it's basically just like um It's I'm starting to feel I'm working through a bit of the discomfort of like the higher numbers and that kind of thing But we absolutely, you know through and through kind of provide the value and like my favorite mindset behind that is just like Um, without them paying or without them exchanging like that token of just like I'm 100 bought in you actually can't help them as well um, so like it's like It's it's it's not in so much of mindset shift It's like a fundamental truth If you don't get them to part ways with a sum of money that makes them feel like, oh fuck Like I have to go all in on this They'll never take it seriously and you won't be able to facilitate the transformation for them that you're hoping to do So is in like without asking for a sum of money that doesn't make them feel like fuck This is like serious It's like, you know people put so much time love effort attention and like money back into their house because the biggest purchase of their life kind of thing It's like if your service is gonna like 5x or 10x like someone's audience Which is then like trickle down to like, you know bottom line increase of like 20% or revenue increase of like 50% Kind of year on year and this is not the other It is your like massive duty to make them like buy into that like so much and they quite literally have to buy into that because if they're not like Parting ways with an amount of money. They're just like fuck. We need an ROI on that They're not going to do the internal changes That's going to basically take the stuff that you do and turn that into like real results and kind of magic on their end Sort of thing. Yeah, so it quite for me, it's just like If they're not parting ways like if I'm If I'm not asking them to part ways with a certain amount of money on like a week to week a month to month Like a project kind of a basis that just doesn't make them like doesn't make them just like Fucking wake the fuck up and like take it seriously then like I'm out of integrity with myself because I know they're not going to do the stuff on their end. That makes sense Yeah, so it's almost like a reflection back on yourself almost. Yeah It's almost just like like asking them for money is not actually it's not it's not it's not taking away money. It is Well and truly giving them the opportunity Yeah to like be fully bought into it. That's a that's a really interesting thing that that's that that is helpful The the authenticity in what you have to offer is a no-brainer for them Yeah, and if they don't see that a no-brainer then you need to to work work on it, you know, what about decision makers at the table versus Marketing managers who don't write the checks. Yeah, they see your value. They come and talk to you I mean, I've had a couple of examples where I've dominated for a specific industry Client and then the competition comes in a year later coming the direct competitor of one client I remember I had they wanted me in the office. They wanted me to come talk to them And I'd already done my part with the with the previous client. We moved on And sat down with them and this is my my learning. There was no decision makers there. Yeah, but I told them what I did Yes, but I didn't tell them exactly how I did it. I just gave them like hints and and shit and Very quickly halfway through the pitch or the presentation. I was like, oh fuck. Yeah. Yeah, there's no decision makers here been there Been there so many times. Yeah. So how do we and another had agencies hit me up saying serve. How can you help us? I'm like, well, this is how I would do it And they're oh, great. Can you send us the presentation before this to our directors? I'm like, fuck no Yeah, yeah, exactly Can you get us like get me a meeting with them and then ghosted? Yep. I'm like, what the fuck? Yeah, 100% do you and then the other thing I know going on a rant now Some marketing internal marketing people I get hired by CEOs come in and I say to them, right What the fuck are you actually doing here? I don't say that exactly. Yeah, because I'm not a piece of shit but um, I say to them How are we going with content? And they're oh, we have to do all this and this and this where they're all rounders Yeah, and I'm like, well, what about like specific single focus mindset within your team? Why don't you have an internal content creator that just dominates that field And puts out two to three pieces of content a day. You're saving money on externals I can teach them. I can help them. They're oh, no, they need to do emails and shit But but they're a creator they create they don't want to fucking gone emails and do all this shit all this admin And when I said to them, how much time do you have as a marketer to actually do marketing? They're like about two hours a week. Yeah. It's insane. Yeah. Yeah. It's just it literally do they're almost like a The amount of red tape they have to basically navigate and the amount of like permissions and that kind of thing They basically need like an internal like sort of a like basis or the amount of just like Meaningless shit they have to do to almost like justify like why they basically exist rather than like generate results Like takes up a vast majority of the time And it's like it's super sad to see because man like some of the internal marketing managers that we've sort of Worked with as well In like in different organizations like they're awesome. They're fucking they're really really really awesome And like they want to have like a massive impact and that kind of thing But it's like, oh, you know, I have to put up like a trade booth for this over here It's like that shouldn't be a party or all I have to do like this or I have to do this this this is this And it just like it fully fully fully takes away from like what their zone of genius is and again It's just like their directorship like their directors haven't like worked out like where they're where this marketing manager's Like zone of genius basically is and I look as I have the most impact but zone of genius. I like that Yeah, it's it's a it's a hell. It's um the zone of That is like the key to unlock Every single fucking person. Hey, yeah Because everyone is like phenomenal at something. Yes. Like yes like Beyond phenomenal at something like to the point where it's just like how the fuck do you even exist? Like you're that good at this one thing, but it's like you have to just like Get through it weed through all of the stuff. They're not the best in the world out to find that one thing Yeah, and I've we've sort of like at the agency and that kind of thing now We've sort of gotten to the point where it's like We we learned that pretty quickly with every single team member Yeah, and then it's just like how do we just like slightly tweak your role and your responsibilities You spend most of the time kind of doing that There's always going to be the 20% of the time you have to focus on like stuff that you don't really like doing Kind of thing But it's just like yeah, so that 80 90 just hone in Yeah, but dude going back to what you're saying about the um the decision makers as well It's a It's a mistake that I've made a few times as well And because the thing is like I think you you get sucked into like the almost like the marketing chat with the marketing manager Because you got like that common interest there kind of thing and they can see your value And they're just like frothing at the mouth kind of thing But then you realize it like they're not the ones that are writing the check So it's just like as simple as just like now If they're not willing to put us in front of the decision makers We just like pull out there basically just well not even pull out there anymore I'm just like hey like it's going to be a waste of time because like I even just say like look we need all the decision makers that are involved in like Approving and green lighting this decision in one room at this time Like I'm happy to deal with the marketing managers to find out everything about the business But when I present the solution it needs to beat it The director the board of directors like all that kind of thing as well And I'm very like this is one thing I actually learned like in the last like few months We actually lost we we lost a big deal with a with a big mining services company kind of thing And one of the reasons that we sort of lost that big deal was um I Like I actually had a really awesome chat with the marketing manager He gave me all the reasons as to why he was like you came like a super close second and that kind of thing And then one of the things that he said like really stuck out to me We're just like an awesome man like a couple of things when you're presenting was like you Talked maybe a little bit too much shit about the lack of Effort that the current provider and partner is kind of put in and while that is absolutely true. It made me look bad Yeah, don't talk. So it's like don't talk shit because like the thing is at the end of the day It's a reflection on their role and that's what like it just made me realize like fuck man Like at this level, you're not just playing with like the best person for the job gets a role It's like you're navigating so many politics and you're navigating like yeah So many like internal things and like who looks good who looks bad who's reporting into who that kind of thing as well It's like super interesting. Hey, yeah, very true. Very true. So moving into now The ai space. Yes. How has that impacted your business and your services and your deliverables? I just like I It's it's just been like honestly the we were doing Really well without ai um, but now with ai like in it's just unlocked this whole new realm of just like Output man. Yes, which is fucking awesome And it's one of those things where I was just like, you know, you like the very like literally within I was actually on holiday when like um, like when when open ai like open the floodgates a chat gpt for the first time kind of thing And like I had like a week and a half left and I was just like Fuck just get me back in the office because like we need to like talk about this and like make this a part of what we're doing Like right now because it's just like, you know, like early bird gets the worm kind of thing Oh, man, I had I clocked in like four three a.m. Late nights in a row Just on chat gpt in that first week and I was like, holy fuck I made so many notes. Yeah, so many notes And I I'm I'm lucky enough to have mingled with all of the leading ai experts in the us And they're all like look at my app now like Yeah, what the fuck and I'm like that's like dude Things fucking epic. Thanks man. I love um, I love I love anyone that's like, I mean using like, you know Getting getting really fluent with ai is like obviously one thing and using it like to to your advantages like one like, you know is another thing but then like Creating an enterprise like ai driven in less than 12 months after like chat gpt sort of like first-gone mainstream Like I've got another mate like lock who's done that as well with like his with his um, his business That's like, you know, it's it's just starting to become post revenue sort of now But I'm just like respect man like fucking respect where respect is due because like if you can create an ai driven enterprise like right now um In less than 12 months of like chat gpt basically going mainstream sort of thing like that is like some like serious like first Move a shit. Yeah. Yeah, and it's like big respect. That's that's yeah, just I had a I had a mate um The editor actually kale he he shared with me a video this morning And it was this guy Aussie dude and he's he's got the phone in the foreground You can see it and the screen and he's in the background doing some shit And he turns the Siri on and he tells Siri to turn this app on and then he tells the app Hey, this is what I did this week this week. I did this Monday I did this Tuesday I did this Thursday I did this Bang and and you can see it like write all the notes. I'm like, all right, great now put it in the uh time sheet All right, great now put that in the invoice and and and he didn't he didn't even look at the phone The phone was doing it all and he goes right cool. Let me check it. Yeah, great. Oh cool All I have to do is now send the invoice Like fucking 20 seconds. All the tradies are going to go nuts Yeah, because the admin has just sliced in half So all those admin services better if I can get a move on with this because they're going to shit on that app They're going to go, uh, it's going to take our jobs. It's like no If you implement that app into your workforce It's going to get you quicker to turn it around for your clients Yeah, which means more clients more clients in the same amount of time, which is that's Impaliment, right? That's what I'm all about. Super. He word But then the tradies that have that, you know, they don't have that much money They're going to get onto it. Absolutely They're going to get onto it or the ones that want to cut costs because they want to put it somewhere else They're going to get onto it. And that's exactly what this this app SS live content unblocker Creative unblocker is going to do that's great. It's a great name by the way. Yeah, love it. And and thank you and um I'm I'm shitting myself I'm very genuinely shitting myself with it because I'm like fuck There's so many amazing ai apps out there that do copy that do script writing and everything But this one I'm like It's it's coming And I'm like out of Perth me Someone that's been creating content for the last five years like so many apps out there that are being developed overnight through ai But there's no brand behind them There's someone in their basement going. Oh, here's a gap. Let's do this and wide open ocean of gaps right now But there's no brand behind them. Yeah, so that's going to be a big one So who whichever ai interfaces or apps or tools that are created the ones that have the brands connected to them Will do far better Than anyone that is just trying to flip it over because i've seen tiktok ai apps that are amazing But like i'm the 1% I guess and I look into it. I'm like if I go to the bottom at the footer You're fucking about me pages. You can't click on it. Yep That's a bit shit. Yeah, but the actual tool itself is insane Yeah, people don't want to scroll down that far. Yeah, but imagine how much more profit if you did it properly Yeah, you know, I mean there's the whole fast moving thing. I've seen agencies I want to talk about this before we finish up as well But I see a lot of agencies grow so quickly scale so quickly especially in Perth But then they they scale back down. Yeah to me. That's a red flag big time. Yeah, you know And the reason why my mindset before was to disrupt agencies Yeah, but now i'm like I want to empower the agencies that are doing it right. Yeah, you know, the ones that are having that amazing What's that phrase you said the the what the the one thing that they're doing really well at Zone of genius zone of genius you're finding zone of genius. You're not just going sick I've got 10 new clients. I need another fucking account manager because I don't have time to give a fuck You know, yeah, and for the last two years. I'm like, am I seeing shit or is it real? And now I'm like, it's fucking real. Let's make this app Let's put the cowboys to bed and empower the real ones. Yes, that's what this app is doing. Fuck. Yeah, man. I love that Yeah, I ever 100% and it's it's it's like I'm always with the mindset of like it doesn't matter Like it doesn't it never ever ever ever ever matters like just how many other people are kind of in the market kind of thing It makes embarrassed entry like obviously harder and makes it harder to sort of stand out but like even if you like It's not about Like how you sort of compare against everyone else. It's just like What are the milestones that you're going to hit and like every single one of those milestones is like super dope as well And the actions behind those milestones It's actions behind those milestones like, you know, if you get get five agencies on board and then 10 and then 15 and then 20 and then 30 and then 40 and then like 100 and then like all of a sudden it's just like Those agencies were crying out for a tool like that and it doesn't matter how big all the other brands and that kind of thing Get it's like all of a sudden you've got a great sass business an AI driven sass business That has like a hundred agencies on board That's like, you know doing like 50k a month or 100k a month or whatever it basically is And then you build a brand behind that and then maybe expand out into like internal marketing teams and this this this Is this and like all of a sudden like There is no noise in the marketplace because like you're just completely in like your own lane And like whoever is like naturally attracted to you or whoever you're a good fit for just your target audience It's a game. Yeah Final question for the day Future of content creators Now i'll start with There's so many influencers out there. They got their 15 seconds of fame on fucking maths or love island or some shitty show And now they're influencers quote unquote. They got their verification tick on instagram for free And they go out and do all these things But they're still working there nine to five Right Because they don't have that business mindset. They thought that it was just going to come to them But they have a skill set They know how to get attention or they have attention or they had attention. They know what it's like But the biggest skill set for them is they're not afraid to be on camera Right. Now segwaying the ai conversation where now you can fucking just analyze Someone's face for two minutes and you can make a video with them now. It's going to get even worse a year from now I know that all these channels and all these apps are going to So social media channels are going to have like an ai stamp if it's artificially made It's going to have a stamp there if it's human made. I think it's going to have like a little Gold tick or something where it's like human made verified And if you try and get that gold tick when it is actually ai, they're going to ban the accounts just to So we don't bullshit propaganda because that's dangerous, right? What i'm saying is my prediction with these uh creators is influencers is if they understand that They will make so much more money in the future if they if they get that business mindset out of them Yes, and I want to help but for yourself Working with influencers working with creatives. Where do you see that going over the next 12 months? So basically, um, I've been actually thinking about this like sort of quite a bit We primarily actually are a um, we're a direct response agency So we actually like, you know for a lot of the brands that we sort of target and that kind of thing We actually target like, you know the top 10 percent of the funnel So we don't do a ton of work with like, um influencers and um and like content creators and that kind of thing We we do when a business gets to a certain stage. We're like, that's the next level of growth They basically need to unlock to really like so pump up brand Um, but you know for myself as well like getting getting a lot more sort of into the content game now and getting really I think the very first thing is just like When it's so easy to become a content creator you need to have Exceptional content and exceptional thoughts and like you need to have a story where you've actually like you've done something And you've been something kind of thing so um, you need to have like an interesting journey with so many universal lessons that sort of come through Almost before you just like start sort of spinning out content because it's very it's I've seen a lot of people that haven't actually really done much with their lives Regurgitating the kind of content. Yeah. Yeah. It's bullshit. It's it's all sort of bullshit But it's like so because the barris entry is so low. There's so many people like you're it's almost like your first thing If you if you're like unless your content creator unless you're like creating content for example You know the big leg show for example Like that was their first thing and that was just like super fucking unreal But if your first thing is kind of creating a personal brand You can't be the personal brand guy creating the personal brand based on like your journey of creating a personal brand without doing anything Kind of thing So you need to become super super super super super valuable And then like I think for me it's like the biggest thing that I've kind of realized is just like if everything just comes from It's almost like not so much rehearsed But like if everything just comes from like your your unique journey in here and in here It's like irreplaceable by anyone else's like thought Yeah, you simply can't fake it But I'm I'm talking about the people who Don't want to build a brand. Well, they it's a hard one because influencers. They want to have merch They want to have fucking, you know Release their own chocolates or fucking shitty electrolyte drinks, but um What if they don't want to do that and they want to do more collaborations? Right, which is a wrong move. You need to have a product behind you as a creator Like I'm I'm going hard on education because it makes sense. Plus you can download a pdf over and over Yeah, but um, but with these other creators, they don't want to teach They don't want to they don't want to do any of that But they have a skill set that can be utilized by other brands to put them in front of as the mascot And that was kind of where I was going for Through that like your clients your service-based businesses like my my target audience is more service-based businesses as well But specifically the ones where the brand mascot is also the CEO. They're happy to be in front of the camera Yes, they just they have a product behind them. They have that authenticity provided. They're not uh, and this is why I prefer not to work with e-com because a lot of them are just you know drop shipping or white labeling sheets And I'm like, so why why are you selling this product? Now? Oh, it makes me money. I get it at 20 cents and sell it for 200 dollars a pop. I'm like, okay, cool So you're making money. I can't fucking market that. Yeah, I can't yeah Like you can make see you can't be a champion for your brand No, no, so that's why I like service-based businesses more But where do you see that that sort of like happening because I see CEOs directors owners of the brands service-based they don't they go Oh, I don't want to be in front of it. Can you do it for me? I don't want to fucking do it I don't want to be in front of every brand, right? I don't want to be a walking billboard. Yeah, I've got enough of those already Yeah, but then I say to them you need to bring in an influencer Yeah that you can align with your brand for 12 months. Yeah, and that's the creator economy, right? Yeah Yeah, yeah, so how do you see that unfolding in the Australian space given what we've seen the Americans achieve? Yeah, and it's it's like the classic like, you know, every single solar companies are they got like a footy A footy player or a cricket are kind of like, you know, doing all their tv ads and that kind of thing as well Is it like yeah, it's like the the the sort of classic of that Yeah, but it's like, you know, that's it's very like I don't think you is in like you don't need And everyone can sort of see through that now It's like no like Brett Lee is not representing your solar company because like they think you're the best solar company It's because you're paying him like a shitload of money kind of exactly. Yeah, it just comes down to that authenticity piece I think that like the biggest probably the the biggest step is um giving CEOs directors because like all these service-based businesses are very very very much driven by the authentic life experience of The CEO the director that's basically that business kind of up from nothing it's um They're just like, oh, I gotta don't be on camera because they're like super nervous about it Or they're just like kind of embarrassed about their story or that kind of that's your level money Yeah, it's like it's it's that but it's also just like I think it's it's a big part of it is just like The stigma behind being that guy as well Because the problem is like people take the piss out of that sort of stuff like so much Which is actually really sad And people like like in in australia like tall poppy syndromes a hundred percent like a thing as well And a lot of company directors and that sort of stuff as well Like the egos are sort of tied into like they don't want to be like that guy that's like, you know like The guy with the whole mozzi style captions like, you know on the thing Because they're just like oh like those people are fucking lame or whatever it kind of is It's almost just like it's just cutting through their own internal resistance and giving them like compelling wires to sort of like Wanting to do it But like what you were saying like the future of it is just like fuck man Every single company's director and every single company's leader and it's a good reminder for me as well Because like i'm starting to do like a little bit more of it like needs to be the champion for their own brand And even working with like when you bring influences in and that kind of thing as well It's not even so much like influences. It's like Your clients your staff members a couple of businesses Um, like, you know like one of my mentors like bodhi from dialette digital like He has but he's never appeared on camera once but His team members make weekly really good high quality videos on educational topics and plasm on linkedin facebook instagram that kind of thing as well So you can like literally learn and see and feel the faces of every single people Every single person like in that business. It's just like it doesn't have to be you. It can be like someone else But it needs it needs to come from within where that's within yourself within the organization Within a close customer that might also have some kind of a personality sort of like outside of that it's the days of hiring The celebrity in to like stand by your brand and that kind of thing when there's not a clear and distinct like Link between them or even the influencer. I think it's just like you can you can very much see through that and like I love I love shitty videos man like like someone Genuinely creating like uh, you know one of our clients like um Like they do a few different videos and that kind of thing on their instagram. They're just like uh Oh, you know, um like today. We're gonna be talking about um like this and uh, yeah, we're just on a job site right now and um Yeah, like as you can see like boys having a good time like People get around it man. Yeah, like people fucking get because like it's Like shitty videos actually work fucking well and I'd rather see that and see like a celebrity representing your brand every single fucking day of the week Well, that's what that's my pain point. I'm like, bro. If you represent your brand you'll dominate Yeah, your friends will share it your family will share it if they don't they're not your friends And you're not your family Yeah, but you need to become your own mascot and just and just haven't and just having to go as well And then like it's weird like every single time you have a go it just becomes that one percent easier one percent easier one percent easier And I've literally I've seen people go from like terrible on video Too incredible in the space of like six months And isn't that like the tiniest blink of an eye on the on the timescale of a lifelong career To literally 10x like everything you ever do. That's that's exactly what i'm saying. That's exactly what i'm saying Absolute pleasure man. Yeah, dude. What an absolute ending to that. Um, thank you for coming in bro What an absolute gem of a chat and can't wait for the audience to say that because That there is authenticity in a marketing agency knows what the fuck he's talking about Thank you very much. He does his photography as well on the side. You do some drone stuff too Yeah, getting getting getting back into that slowly slowly as well. It was like, you know, this thing that I used to Absolutely, I mean still do love doing it kind of thing. I've just sort of dropped off the bandwagon of doing it like Like that a little bit more but we're just we're focusing on on on bigger and better and crazier adventures like, you know, um being a few like really close mates are Climbing three big peaks in napole in october as well, which can be just unreal So, yeah, there's there's a lot happening outside of the work side of things, but yeah Right, we'll get it. Uh, we'll get it done. Oh, thank you so much man. That was awesome. Love that. Love. Yeah Shout out to bright tank. Thanks for catching up. Um, the uh, all the all the informations in the description Thanks for listening. Leave a five-star review if you don't then Fuck you. Good. Thanks I love it. Cheers, brother