 Hi, welcome to the All Things LGBTQ Interview Show, where we interview LGBTQ guests who are making important contributions to our communities. All Things LGBTQ is taped at Orca Media in Montpelier, Vermont, which we recognize as being unceded indigenous land. Thanks for joining us and enjoy the show. Once at the time when All Things LGBTQ interviews an elected official, it's a legislator or a candidate for the U.S. House. Well, we have town meeting day coming up rapidly, and we have out elected officials who are running for places on, oh, say, the very city council, so please welcome back to All Things LGBTQ, not talking as a writer and a poet, but as an elected official. Please welcome Sam Stockwell. Thank you. It's great to be back. Well, and it's been a little while since you've been here, so a sort of catch up is you are currently serving on the Berry City Council. So how many terms have you served and what was your initial impetus for wanting to serve on the council? Well, my initial impetus, I've been there about, so I've been there one full term and maybe about a quarter because I filled in for someone for about two months, and a term is two years. So I'm ending my first full term. My impetus was that I was having a conversation with someone who was serving on council and said, I think you'd be good for this. Why don't you try it? And really, I didn't have a great sense of what that would be like. But it sounded interesting and, you know, various a profoundly interesting bunch of communities. So I thought, I thought actually I would not possibly get hired. And I had no understanding of the process, but I did. And then I missed the next time. But then I got that you really had to run and you really had to be out there and you had to make sure people knew who you were and what you stood for. So that was two years ago when I got elected. And the thing is that it's so interesting. It's so interesting to figure out how a city works and how a city could be better. You know, as a lesbian and as a sort of a longstanding person who grew up in fairly dire poverty, I have a good sense of what what people's lives are like. But my dismay is that people's lives are so segregated that people don't know. People in apartments on Main Street don't necessarily know people in condominiums up behind me on the hill. So one of the things that's interesting is to think about how you can bring those groups together and how the city can do planning that is truly inclusive for all the groups. Not just the economic groups, but there's a lot of diversity in Barry. And not everyone feels comfortable with city council. And OK, you brought up a lot of issues that I now want to pursue. Barry has a reputation of being a working class community. You're also the social service community. You have the domestic violence, sexual violence program, the homeless program. You're the place of refuge for many people. I know that there were apartments and housing that are dedicated for people coming out of incarceration. So looking at all of those needs, what do you see as being the priorities for the city of Barry? And what's your vision on how you might approach them? My priorities are affordable and safe housing for everyone and a variety of housing options. And really more walkable and safer streets. I think those two things, there's a ton of other things that I think about. But those are two things that I think are pretty critical to making the city more inviting. The programs that exist for people who are experiencing any kind of difficulty are great things in and of themselves. But there needs to be a way forward and there isn't a way forward for many people. I was at Green Acres just this weekend walking around and in many ways it's lovely. But for people there, there isn't necessarily a place they can go to next. There isn't an affordable house. Like if they're perfectly stable and working at a job, there's still no affordable house they could go to or a better apartment because there's zero vacancy. So they're there and it's nice. And I think for kids, it's a pretty good environment. But there needs to be a way forward. There needs to be a place they can go so they have better roots in the community, which to me means affordable housing. You need low-end condos, you need duplexes. All those things need to exist so that people don't feel like they're trapped. And also, you know, when the housing projects were built, they're kind of out on the hillsides, which in some ways is lovely because there's green space around, which, you know, I think is necessary. But it's not near public transportation. So people there, and that's, you know, Barry City has a fairly low rate compared to the state right average for people who own cars. So public transportation is really important. And there isn't a lot. Does the City of Barry have a development plan for how they would like to see services created and provided or a strategic plan to create affordable housing? There is now a strategic plan. That's one of the things that's happened in the last couple of years. And there's a capital improvement plan. So all these things seem pretty exciting. And in 25, there'll be a complete streets assessment. So a complete streets means, like everywhere in Vermont, streets need paving. And it's really expensive. I don't think people realize how much it cost to pave the street. But yes, but you would. So there isn't, there doesn't exist yet in Barry City is sort of raiding by street. Like this is an A, this is a B, this is a C. And therefore we're going to prioritize all the C's for paving. So it just sort of happens that if you have to dig up a pipe, that's the street you're going to repave. But it doesn't necessarily meet the need. Barry engaged in a multi-year massive Main Street restoration that didn't get extended through the rest of the city. That was, and I realized that part of it, the priority was to take all of the utility wiring and putting it below street level. So, but that, that initiative didn't extend beyond Main Street. No, it really, it really provided much better infrastructure for the downtown area, which is great because it means you could do additional development in downtown without the, without added infrastructure. That was a great thing, but it didn't extend throughout the city. Okay, so there, there was still a very obvious need of, okay, we invested this money, but. The rest of the community needs as much attention. You made a comment about creating safer streets. Is there a problem with safety on the streets in Barry and what is your vision for what a safe street would look like? I don't mean in terms of crime. Okay. I don't mean safer streets in terms of crimes. I mean, safer than that. It's easier to walk around the city. It's easier to get across the road. The intersections are better. There's more, there's more signage. There's more, it's easier to get from one place to another on foot so that you have more, more people traveling around the city. And my plan for that is, well, we, we did a local option tax last year. We passed that. So we have additional money for, for paving and for sidewalks. And with the complete streets, we can say we can address the areas of greatest need, which is not what we have yet, but it's in the planning. Okay, the city of Barry should be receiving monies from the American rescue plan that specifically was looking at developing infrastructure. Do you have those monies and is, is there a plan of how those can be utilized for the vision that you're sharing? We're still working on the ARPA funds. Some of it we've spent, some of it has been spent on infrastructure already. And some of it has gone to a downstreet project to create more affordable housing, which I'm very pleased to have been part of. Because during COVID, essentially development stopped. Business development stopped, housing development stopped. So that seems good. And the rest of it, we're not sure we're discussing an affordable housing, well, a housing revolving fund and a way of doing private and public partnerships and also with infrastructure. And we have some grants for infrastructure and some earmarks to replace some of the infrastructure. So we're getting, with a plan in place, we can look at the city and say, okay, here's where we are in this part, and here's where we are in this part. And here's where they all come together to create a more workable city, a more walkable city and a more enjoyable city. Is there a specific development plan already in place to address affordable housing or is that one of the plans that is still under development? Well, actually, the current mayor and I and a couple other people developed a strategic plan for increasing housing. And that's still present, but we need to decide what we're going to do with the ARPA funds and how that's going to work out for it to move forward. Is the strategic plan available for people to read if they go on the city's very website? Probably should be in about two months. Okay. It's pretty new. All right. So are there other initiatives that you think the city of Barrie should be undertaking? And this could flow into the, what is it that keeps your interest that you want to continue serving on the city council? I think the other initiatives that are floating around are redoing zoning. And that's a statewide initiative to reduce some of the duplicative requirements you have to go through to do construction or to create more housing. That I think that would be really helpful for Barrie and for most cities. Does Barrie have a well-defined zoning plan? Yes, Barrie has a pretty extensive zoning plan, which is in the process of revision. And there is a master plan that's come out of that. I think last year at least it came out, and it's really nicely organized in terms of its goals. But some of the zoning still needs to change to make things possible like ADUs. So what holds you to wanting to serve on the city council? Well, for one thing, it's really interesting. I didn't realize that I really liked understanding infrastructure and how it worked. Or how you constructed roads or what you made, like, all those things about how you put roads together. Didn't really have much of a sense of it. It seems pretty interesting to me. Also, I have an excellent opportunity to meet people I disagree with and stay friends with them. With that, I'm very invested in. It's so easy to walk away from people. You know, it's so easy just to hang out with the people you want to hang out with and saying, you're not part of my club. But we really do live in the same one small space. And we need to keep talking to each other across our differences. And find a way to agree on a path forward. I mean, you know, bears losing population, lost population, and that needs to be reversed if the city is really going to thrive in any meaningful way. I look at White River and look at some of the other cities that have really come alive again. I thought, you know, that's years of work. And if we're going to do those years of work, then we have to agree that this is the work that needs to be done. It seems to me to develop a vision for a city. You know, when cities started, I'm sure it was like someone had a stable and then someone did a copper next door and so it grew like that. Well, we're not that place anymore. So we really need like, well, what do we want. And how do we keep a place that includes people. You know, I go to the city council meetings. Most of the people, you know, it's, it's pretty much the same 20, 20 to five people, unless there's a very, very hot issue. I know there are tons of people out there. I've done visiting and lots of parts of Berry City, and they don't come to council, but I know they have issues. And I want to create a place where they'll come, and they'll feel comfortable in saying, here's what my experience is like. Here's how it will be better. If the apartments, you know, some of the apartments are great in Berry City, but some of the apartments are not great. How do we make them better so that everybody has a decent place to live. A decent and a safe place to live. I mean, safe in terms of heating, safe in terms of the way the apartment is constructed. That should be something we can do for everyone. It shouldn't be something like, that's, that's like paradise. No, that's something we can do. We can create a city that's whose bottom line is not quite so far in the gunner. It's from what you're sharing it sounds like as a member of the city council, you've made it a priority to reach out to the larger community. And that you're hearing varying opinions and voices and get a clearer sense of what it's like for other people to also live in Berry. But you also shared that there are times that you're meeting people who absolutely do not agree with you. Being an out member of the city council and encountering some of those challenges. What's your experience been like. Well, I really haven't gotten anything avert about my sexuality. And I think in part it's a function of my age. If I were younger it may be more of an issue, seriously because because it would be so I don't really hear that much about that in particular. And, you know, we have the rainbow community bridge on the downtown very we had the queer craft fair. So, I know there are segments that are appalled by that, but their voices are not coming through. Or they're not loud, or they're not loud a whole lot of opposition. Okay, so with our remaining time. There are six members of the council user for two years each up for reelection. I noticed that one of the council members from another district is the former mayor. Is there a chance that I might be doing a future interview with Mayor Sam Stockwell. You know, the thing that I didn't realize when I started serving on city council was that a you could do it 24 hours a day and you still wouldn't know enough. And if you're really involved in it, it's incredibly consuming. So I think about like, Mayor is a step up in terms of responsibility. I do think about it sometimes story. You know, in the last few months I thought, well, what would that be like and could I could I bear that responsibility in a, in a caring way, and in a fair way. So I do think about that sometimes. Alright, I understand that there is some opposition in this race. So I will say, good luck. Thank you. Thank you for the privilege of spending this time with us. And I look forward to standing in the park with a Sam Stockwell for Mayor's time. Thank you Keith. Thank you very much. Thank you to everybody in the LGBTQ community and watches of our show I'd like to introduce clear McCarthy to the show, who is an extremely interesting person. She has a broadcast podcast, and people can see it on Apple clear or it's everywhere that podcasts are available so they can get it directly from the trans cat website. If there's a YouTube channel and then just all of the platforms work where podcasts are so Spotify and those those. Yeah, all those places. I saw them on Apple but you know just so our audience knows knows where to find these podcasts. And you do it primarily as a place to learn about transgender life transgender people. Right. And, and transgender experience so where are you from Claire and how did you. I know you were a Latin teacher. That is true. I was. And generally, Linda, I just want to jump in that generally when people say, Oh, you were a Latin teacher that's kind of where the conversation ends. It's like, Oh, you're a Latin teacher I'm leaving. Yeah, I was just this past June retired after 33 years in education. Most of that as you say was as a Latin teacher. The last four or five I was also the school librarian. And by the end of last June, there was certainly a degree of burnout after coven don't want to deny that. But really the deciding moment for me came. I was shelving books in the library and thinking about the fact that there's a war going on against people like me that that opposition has moved transgender to the four of the culture wars. And to the point where one of our two national parties has made anti trans not just rhetoric but legislation, part of their, their national agenda. And I started to wonder why I'm not fighting that. You know, I mean, I think there, there's something to be said for being out and visible in, you know, just I'm a Latin teacher and a librarian it doesn't get any more boring than that, but just for kids to see that. I thought that was really valuable. But I started feeling like I needed to be doing more in this culture war. I started thinking about skill sets and, you know, what do I have to bring to the table, and I realized that my skill set as an educator as a communicator was really my strong suit. And so I created trans cap as a safe space, because that's one of the things I've learned as a teacher is nobody learns anything when everybody shouting. You really learn when you know you're safe in an environment where you can ask questions and actually listen to the responses where you are where the whole objective is respectful conversation civil discourse, and it's just sadly lacking and I thought I can do that. And so I built this platform that, as you said includes a podcast and speaking engagements and and other things. But that's, that's the intent is that there be respectful conversations about it, and along the way. So I've done a number of episodes where they're issue oriented. And along the way I've been finding that this, this is also going to serve as an archive of people's stories. And that wasn't something I had originally planned but it became so evident as I got to listen and talk to people that. Oh my goodness these stories these these need to be heard, the people telling them need to be able to tell their stories. Well if if trans cat can do that then that's that's time well spent. And speaking of that how did you come up with that name. Okay, so I have, I have four cats, which I haven't had the chance to listen to your interview with john Calacchi, but john is is insistent that that makes me a crazy cat woman. But that there's somehow there's a line between healthy pet owner and crazy cat lady and and he maintains that I have well crossed that line. I have four cats, and they started noticing that I was home from work a lot more starting this past summer, and they were, they were concerned that that, you know, are we going to continue to be fed. Did you, did you get fired. And so I explained to them no no no I'm just trying this new venture I want to be a transgender advocate, and they, they came up with the term trans cat. And I said okay, we can do that. And one of them said yeah but you have to spell cat with a queue. The bottom line Linda is that I was out voted. I said that's a silly idea. There's four of them there's one of me, I lost. Well you know that seems like a good, a good explanation as one can get. We had at one time five cats. We have, we have now one. So, I should tell john that next time I please please do because it's important that he have perspective. You know, we're all crazy cat people. And he's got that horse anyway right. Yes, yeah. And so you are in Connecticut. Is that right. I am. I'm in East Adam Connecticut. Yeah, which is about an hour from New Haven about 45 minutes from Hartford. Did you have you always been from Connecticut. No, I moved here, but a decade ago, or so. I was born and raised in Massachusetts. Oh, we're into grew up in West Brankfield. West Brankard. I'm from Chelsea. Oh, okay. Great. It's out East in the important section of the state. As, as any true Massachusetts person knows anything after Framingham is actually part of New York State, as far as they're concerned. Yeah, so we don't count. So I grew up in West Side. I did my undergrad work at Boston University. I got my master's degree in teaching Latin in the classics at UMass. Go Minutemen. And have, like I said, been in education ever since was really, really proud of being a Latin teacher. It's, it's, it's a unique thing. It's a commitment to the subject matter and I genuinely love the classics I love the language I love the literature. I love the culture and so my job really for three decades was to find a way to take this thing that is foreign to most other people's daily experience and make it relatable. And so when the time came where I wanted to move into trans advocate advocacy, I thought, Oh, well, you've been doing that for three decades if you can do it for the ancient Romans, you can do it for your tribe. I gotta say you might be the first Latin teacher I've ever met. I will try to represent honorably. I've just got it since you said the first Latin teacher I had the best principle I've ever worked with. We were having a conversation one time, and he just paused in the middle of whatever I was saying, and said, So are all of you Latin teachers this arrogant. And I was going to be offended and then I thought, No, yeah, no, we really are. So, yeah. I'm sorry. Hey, that's the way it is right. Yeah, I, you know, I do site deny it if I could but there. You know, it's something to hold proud. So, you came out of 55. I did. Yeah. The only way in the closet is, is no way to live your life. And if, if there's one takeaway from trans cat for queer youth. It's Oh, for the love of God, don't do that. It causes so much internal damage. And then by extension, everybody around you is harmed by by all the damage that you're doing to yourself. Coming out. I look at coming out as my, the beginning of my journey toward a healthier life. So teaching then when you. I was, yeah. I came out and then very quickly there after COVID set in and all the madness for the next few years. But I was, as I said that the principle that I was referring to was the one that that I went to when I came out and he was so far above and beyond in terms of supportive. I've, I went to him on the first day of school. And I said, I'm going to, I need to talk to you about something important. And he said, Well, I've got a meeting in two minutes. Can you just give me a synopsis. And I said, No, this needs more time than that. And we made an appointment for later in the day, and I showed up and I said, Okay, so here's the situation. I'm transgender always have been. I'm going to come out and start living as myself. And he said, That's what you wanted to talk to me about. I thought this was something important. I thought you had cancer or something. This is, this is not a problem. And he and I over the next several months. Isn't it wonderful. And apparently, and this is just the quality of this guy, he spent most of the day, worried that something was really wrong with me and how is he going to respond. Anyway, he and I sat down and we made this meticulous plan over the next few months as to how we were going to roll things out. And what the, because he wanted there to be a concerted message from the district that said, We support this person. This is one of us. We're behind her and whatever needs to happen for the rest of you to find your way to that. Let us know, but we're behind her and I am keenly aware of how rare that is for queer people in the workplace. I am so honored by that. I should point out that as as as Brian and I continued to talk about it. He said, we, you know, we rolled all this out and he said, then he just turned to me and said, So this means I get all your ties right. And I knew actually I said that as a joke but I knew at that moment that he was if he was comfortable enough to joke with me about it. He was going to be fine. This this was one thing I didn't have to worry about anymore. And I am so indebted to him. We're very lucky to find yourself in that. Did you did you expect that response though did you know to know that how they might respond no. I knew that he was an excellent principle so I knew he would respond professionally, and it would be fine. I did not expect the level of deep understanding, you know, of, of making sure every detail that could possibly be considered was considered I kind of expected. You know, and that you get this with with management in any business where they say yep yep no problem. Got you back and that's pretty far from the truth a lot of the times. Oh, Linda so much not the case here. He, yeah, he, he rolled things out to the district administration to put groups within the community. And then we did. I basically did kind of a press conference, I came out to the faculty in one go, so that I didn't have to do it 100 times. And everybody was there to hear it faculty staff. And then the next morning, I came out to all of my students any student that had me in any of my classes or study hall was invited to the library. And I came out to them. And as I was doing that the principal was sending an email to parents of home. So as I say it was this incredibly coordinated efforts, nothing but kindness and were you here. Yes, I was terrified. Yeah. And at the time, my, my Latin five class was these four magnificent girls they were I just adored them. And later that day after we did the coming out in the morning. And when their class time came around in the afternoon, the, the most adorable of the four came up to me and said, If anybody gives you any trouble. If you're a faculty or student, you just give us their names. And I knew if Sam had my back I, you know, it's fine. You take care of it for me. And I was reading in your blog which will be really exciting you say you're going to try to work on a memoir soon. I am. I, I have a story that has some relevance for people. If nothing else, I'm someone who was growing up in a time that that today's queer youth really don't appreciate for a number of reasons, but the notion that life was just inherently different in the 60s and 70s. The idea of what the HIV and AIDS crisis meant in the 80s and 90s. These are all things that you might as well be talking about the Civil War with with today's queer youth. And so I think in that aspect, I have something to offer. In terms of a queer audience, I think, even though I was closeted for so long. I think there's a lot of points of connection there that people would find too. And just the struggle with yourself is, and coming out in, you know, it's really interesting and I think people would find it. You know, would add to the canon of some literature that is there now and that that's really important. I was recently given an opportunity to write a short story for a queer romance anthology. And I loved it. I was very intimidated by it because I've never done fiction. I wrote it and I really loved the characters and writing that short story showed me some of what I need to do when I go back to the memoir and reshape it. A dear friend of mine, Kristen Higgins, the author, told me that I need to write scared. She said, you need to write at a point where you're really convinced that you're exposing too much of yourself, and that's where you know where the truth is. And so, and I can see that in early drafts of this memoir, I was still trying to hide behind some things and I think I've got a better handle now on how to do that. And a lot of that comes from doing the podcast where I listen to people open their hearts to my microphones, you know, and it's just, yeah, that's, that's what I need to do. If I want the story to resonate with people. It has to be authentic. And so that's, I continue to work on that but I sincerely hope that I get the memoir out at some point. And in addition to all that. I'm exhausted Linda, but I know you do book reviews. I do. I am as I did three or four years as the school librarian, I got into the into the habit of reading queer themed YA fiction, you know geared at teens, and was just astounded at what's out there. And frankly, really jealous that none of this was there when I was a kid it would have been so much easier. If I had fictional representations for me to go okay I don't really have much in common with this one but oh yeah over here that's me and that too. That's my brother or sister. Right. Yeah, I had a conversation like that. And yeah, and it's so I applaud those authors who are publishing authentic voices. I, I love reviewing them on the on the website and the blog, because it gives me an excuse to to force me to read other things. Yeah, that's an area that has really. Don't is why a literature in general. My goodness. Yeah. And it's, you know, I mean there's there's fiction there's nonfiction there's memoir. So many ways to access it that I am. I am so excited about this I later this week or early next week I'm going to be talking to a writer named Elliott Schrafer. I've been in the works for a couple of months and Elliott last year put out a book called queer ducks and other animals. And it's, it's written for a YA audience but it systematically deconstructs the arguments that we've heard forever, which is that queer is unnatural, because it doesn't exist in the natural world. His book in an incredibly funny and accessible way blows that out of the water and just goes through animals that are could, you know, could be called trans animals that are ace animals that are, you know, same sex. And any he he is just it's so informative but so funny. And I, I took, I contacted him when I first read it and I said I really want to do this, but you've got these other books that I want to read to so I put off the interview a little bit so I could read some of his other books and so I can't wait to talk to him. And we report a lot on like gay penguins. Yes, there's a lot of gay penguins. And I think there's gay penguin, there's a gay penguin couple in Boston. I do, I think there is yeah. Oh cool. Next time in town I'll have to go check it out. Go check out the gay penguins. So I was just, you know, on a less pleasant subject I was going to ask you about any pushback from well, the turf community but also from any other, you know, there's so many laws being passed in, in the country. As you were saying in the beginning where trans, transgender people are really getting slammed. Yeah, it's like, okay, you know, most people accept. Well, not most but you know, majority of people don't care about gay people so much. So let's focus on this group. And then maybe we can divide even the gay community from the trans community. Divide and conquer goes back to the ancient Romans Linda, that's nothing new. Yeah. So I was wondering if you got any pushback from, or have you given any thought to how you would respond to unity. I haven't received any pushback per se. Mostly because I in the few months that I've been doing this I haven't had time to address that that is on my list of topics that I want to do. I want to find a feminist who is willing to sit and have a respectful conversation about what we're calling turf, trans exclusionary radical feminism, which it's probably not my place to explain it but is it for anybody not familiar with it is essentially the idea that women like me transgender women aren't really women and we're guys trying to encroach on safe zones for cisgender women and part in obviously on a personal level that hurts and I want to argue against it. So I understand the necessary, the need to have safe places for women. And, and so it seems to me there is a conversation, a lot more than one conversation to have, I just haven't gotten it yet. So if any of your listeners feel that that would be something they could contribute to please reach out to me because it's, it's definitely a subject I want to learn more about. And that's, that's really something that I've also found with doing trans cat is that I learned something in every episode. And so I'm educating myself, hopefully I'm educating the listeners. And that's that. And you were saying with the attacks. What's really insidious about them is that they're targeting the most vulnerable. You know, all of this legislation isn't coming after the 60 year old. Yeah, it's it's let's deny trans kids affirming healthcare, let's deny trans athletes, ie high school students, the right to compete. Let's, let's make sure there are some states that have legislation up that guarantees teachers the right not to use preferred pronouns. So if I were in this teacher's class and I come out and say okay my name is Claire I use she her that teacher would be protected in saying, Nope, the name on the roster is this this is the name I'm using. It says your mail I'm using those pronouns and they would be protected. So it's, it's disingenuous the the argument that there's somehow something threatening about this. And that's the proof that's in the pudding is that they're attacking kids. And I have no sympathy for that. Yeah. And you know, it's like a divided country because you know like where you live or where we live. I mean there are always problems but at least there are some people willing to get into the fight and make our lives more accessible and you know, not as not as accessible as in like some states like Florida where, you know, it's very scary and I don't know how, you know, people with transgender children would stay in these environments. I just, you know, it's awful. Yeah, I agree with you completely. There's something out there that wants to talk to Claire about some more controversial issues. She'd be happy to talk absolutely reach out through the websites trans cat t r a n s q at dot com. The email is there. There's also a form where you can just contact me through there. If you have suggestions for guests for future episodes or topics or if you think you might want to just come and tell your story. That's Linda you were saying you were listening to the most recent episode where I talked to a dozen people at this conference in Boston. What jumped out at you about that. The courage that people had to be able to tell their story. Whether they were scared or sad or overwhelmed or any of those emotions. I'm impressed with the fact that people want to tell their stories they want to tell the truth, their truth. And you know they want to a voice and someplace to put this, this these feelings and to me that was, you know, really heartwarming and interesting to learn things that, you know, I don't, I don't necessarily understand completely because you know, I'm, you know, I'm in the LGBT community but I can't know everything I can't keep up with everything so so something like this is really important to the community. Well I think, yeah, acknowledging that there is that that being trans or being lesbian or being by. It's not a monolith, you know, it, everyone doesn't experience the same things and when you start looking at intersectionality of race and age and economic background and all of these other things as ethnicity and family. I think where all the stories lie is one of one of my favorite moments where a conversation on the podcast just went completely in a direction I wasn't experiencing. So I was talking to a guy named Lucas who is a trans man in Houston. He was talking about male privilege that he was saying he had experienced distinct change in meetings at work where people were listening to him more, and he wasn't being interrupted. And so we were, we were talking about that and he says yeah well having been on the other side of that. I'm much more aware of it and much more willing to say no no that wasn't my idea she said that five minutes ago and you ignored her. And so I said well, is there, is there anything that's a trade off for you so you're experiencing more privilege as a man. Is there anything that's been a trade off and he proceeded to tell me the story of the first time he got pulled over for speeding as a black man in Houston. And he said that as soon as the cop got out of the car, his hand went for his hip. And that sort of that sort of experience something that I would never have for myself. That's what I want trans cap to be I want people to listen and learn things oh my goodness I never thought of that before. Oh yeah that that must have been terrifying. Yeah. And so, so those sorts of moments of intersection are what I strive for. Well in these last moments we have Claire do you have anything that you would like our audience. And I encourage people with with their stories to get in touch. We have quite a few here and I will certainly send them in your direction. So, anything you want to share with our TV audience. Well thank you for listening. That that you would listen to anyone from Connecticut is his heartwarming thank you. But just if you're looking for a space where you can listen and learn and not have raised voices and rhetoric and, and, and all of that stuff that's not conducive to learning. I'm on over to trans cap. I would love to have you and do all do all of those social media things follow and friend and tweet whatever it is people do. Recommend and share and comment and I don't. I'm old, I don't know. Hey listen speaking of old, you're not old, but speaking of old. I, I was like I got on your web page and I thought, wow, this is really cool. Oh, thank you. Did you do this. I built yeah I built the website myself. Yeah, mind of teachers you know or something I don't know but well I, I spent six years back in the late 90s early ox, as the IT director for the school district that I was doing. And it was, it was at a time when school districts believed that pretty much anybody could do that job that, that, you know, if somebody had an inclination and wanted to learn. Great, like, let them do it the idea that you had to have a professional in that professional position and quite caught up with education. So I, I had some experience of website building and maintain and maintenance. I'm right, right now I am old dog new tricks I'm trying to teach myself tick tock. So I've been making tick tock videos and, oh, Linda, nothing will make you feel older than trying to fit in and take time. But it's, but it's fun and it's so that it speaks to again that I'm, I'm learning as well. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed meeting you, and hopefully we'll get to meet in person one day. That would be lovely. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. And until next time remember resist.