 I think very very topical in terms of you know what we're discussing today a lot of it obviously has to do with the elements of Funding winter that we keep speaking about but I think lean startups as a as a as an element You know is obviously beyond funding the agility the nimbleness the flexibility I think a lot of that obviously is what's built this ecosystem I think the tourism capital that we've had in 21 Parts of 22. I think it's built a lot of cholesterol in this startup ecosystem So, I mean, I think the need for going back to being lean and just applying those same Mental mental frameworks to sort of build I think is becoming increasingly more relevant as we you know think about How startups sort of need to build in scale from here on? But maybe I should let me start by asking you You know, we've seen many cycles Over the last two decades at the last 10 years more So has been quite interesting in terms of the build up on the startup side you know the entire evolution of Scale scale that we've been able to see with lots of enablers going through What's the house view at your end in terms of? Advice to startups advice to founders as they think about, you know Scaling and building in some of these frugal funding funding times Okay, so Thanks for this and we'll try and keep answers shot Otherwise, we'll be soon more people in the stage than on the audience. So two three Quick things of course economic cycles will come and go but at the end of it We need to acknowledge the fact that fundamentally business consumption are going to always be there So to the extent we are solving for problems that are not buzzwords to the extent we have been Receiving capital and we're able to build it in a manner where you visualize a listed business in the end state I think you're moving in the right direction the good part about the last Crazy boom that we had in funding is that many companies were able to leverage it and raise meaningful chunks of capital and The capital is still hopefully going to last in quite a few of those It's a good opportunity which definitely cannot be missed. So the advice is very simple number one You definitely need to make sure that the next round is going to be if at all raised It is going to come on the public markets if it's a growth company if it's an early company I'll come to it in just 30 seconds the second piece is very clear that you are going to build it from that lens where you are in a visualization of a pat for yourself if you are at the growth stage because Listed markets may be okay for you to come and not have a pad there have been companies that have gone down that But those are not the playbooks you want to build sustainable ecosystems on the back of in enough arguments on both sides But personally I would definitely tell my founders that try and focus on business at a path positive And in that vein the last punchline on the growth side is that it's okay to be a listed company at 10,000 crores of enterprise value or even a little lower We don't need to wait for the ideal moment and that need not be a one lakh crore valuation Those you can be a public company and grow after that also because there are data patterns and trends which have shown That if your biggest differentiation in today's market is that you have let public make money That's a terrible differentiation But there's an opportunity for enough companies to take that position on the early state side The idea is to focus on fundamental problems and build it easily and long-term in mind and make money of your customer Rather than investor Yeah, no, thanks. I should be a very relevant points. Uncle may be the same question to you You obviously have a fantastic portfolio cutting across various vintages. How what's the house we at your end? What's the house view at your end in terms of again building in this time? I'm sorry. Okay. I'll repeat the question What I was saying was what's the house view at your end in terms of the current economic environment? How are you advising startups within and you know portfolio companies? Within your ecosystem as to how they should think about building in these funding times Yeah, I mean, you know, I won't call it breaking news if I say that the environment is tough, right? I mean, we all know that and You know the weekend was tougher than for many but You know, principally, we have always evaluated businesses with positive unit economics even at growth stage Profitability can come later Especially at the stage at which we invest which is at the early stage. We can't straight away There are certain businesses which are profitable from day one, and you know, that's great But when you are trying to go after creating a minimum viable product if you're still trying to test your markets We are looking at at least a business which in future will be unit positive economics We actually started advising our startups way back in October 21 To when you know, we were announcing unique on a week, right and nobody thought this Cycle will ever end right but I've been an investment banker on Wall Street during 2000 So I've seen the hires of 2006 7 and then I was there in 2008 9, right? So I know these Cycles do come the rise and fall so it didn't take rocket science. It was just macroeconomics Inflation was rising globally. We knew that the inflation rate to control that The government will have to you know restrict quantitative easing will have to go back into interest rate rising So in October 21, we started advising our startups whichever is in a position to raise capital But you know to get it enough to get you through 23 and some part of 24 Many startups listen if you didn't we continue to work with the remaining but You know the focus still continues to be on growth at the stage at which we are but far more responsible growth Gone are the days when you could and we have I have personally never promoted or supported those businesses But there have been some businesses you have to spend on some businesses upfront before you can hit Some level of growth, but now the advice is Find a way to continuously grow. There is no point in just surviving over the next 12 months You know then you better off return capital to the investors because just surviving is not going to get you anything So if you can continuously grow you may not be doubling every month But if you can have a reasonable growth rate through these 12 months and let's try to raise whatever capital We can because early-stage investing is Relatively still open right Do that continue to grow so that when the next cycle comes and the next cycle will come sitting here today may look difficult But remember last March was different. This March is different next March could be again different So this cycle will change again and at that time you should be the one growing Comfortably having a good strategy. So that's our advice to the portfolio I think uncle very well made points and I think you're right the entire Cholesterol and a lot velocity that the ecosystem was building was evident towards the last quarter of the calendar year 21 Anyway, some of it, you know Overlapped into early 22, but I think we've seen what the market, you know has played out over the last 12 months or so Cut let me ask you. I think as you think about, you know We keep talking about new age founders We keep talking about a different breed of entrepreneurs that have come into the ecosystem especially, you know post-covid and And I think a lot of questions that people sort of tend to ask and this may be a factor of their backgrounds given a lot of them come From more larger companies established businesses The the ability to build a business and a product quickly enough to iterate quickly enough to pivot Etc. I think if the mindset of founders is not right to be you know lean and efficient It does tend to be a bit of a block in terms of scaling, right? So as you think about advice to founders of you know most as a very mental framework level What's the best way to think about? MVP what's the best way to keep? I trading yet keeping your eyes open to pivot and be flexible and not get stuck in the rut of trying to build with One vision and not you know seeing success So let me answer that so I'm a founder myself Being lean and mean basically for me means that we are trying to minimize the impact of Factors which are typically out of our own control in the last few years. We have seen the Kuwait thing playing out We have seen the funding drying out in the last few years Being lean and mean meant for us for me personally that we could survive through those Periods, but at the same time we should be having enough funds enough resources to take advantage of any Opportunities that come along the way like even for Kuwait. It was a bad time for many businesses, but The business that we were in it offered us a very good opportunity to expand into certain segments, which were Clearly booming during that time if it did not have the capital or the resources to take advantage of that We would have fallen down the track but since We were a small team we were Burning money less it allowed us the opportunity to go in and build our growth during that Period and capture the growth that could happen during the Kuwait period But if we'd not have been set up that could work in that way then it would not have been possible So it is important that you are lean and mean and you have the surviving Ability but at the same time we should not let go of any opportunities that come your way during such periods That's I think quite interesting as well. I think again the Capital as an enabler versus capital as a commodity I think those are two very relevant topics that founders need to keep in mind as they think about building and I think that's where Habits and principles and first principles application sort of you know makes a difference to any business that gets built I think I just want to reflect on one of the questions that you know were asked In the I think in the topics that were covered in the previous panel Maybe I should we can sort of you know look at look at you to sort of you know help us unpack that You know we're talking about again a market where capital is not easily available We are all early stage on this side So it makes we do understand this market very differently than you know what growth stage investors obviously look at But for a founder you know who's looking to build In a market when you're trying to create a category versus be part of a category right your capital allocation strategy Changes quite dynamically when you think about it You know for example if you think about quick commerce in someone was trying to build it today versus when it got built I think the approach Might be very different and for all you know, maybe it will still be far away from the traction that we've seen So again in these tougher times for founders who are looking to build new businesses your advice on how to think about Building new categories versus staying part of a category and how to efficiently deploy capital Great question and honestly, it's a quite a gray area because you know from the founders perspective You know most of the time it it seems the projection looks like as if the category is new or they are the category creators But it ends up like a me-too sort of thing when you're comparing with the western world And in today's times when you have already gone through the journey of last 10 years of this ecosystem I would say that largely, you know, the things are established in a way where there is not enough margin for you to become a category creator unlike Unlike a new, you know buzzword again comes up, right or it changes to something different For example, earlier it was consumer focus then you become D2C or virtual reality, you know transforms to web 3 You know all those things but all those things are there, right? It's just that probably the traction was not there for that particular year or for that particular time Or the time has not come and probably now you see suddenly in the global arena There's a larger interest and then probably you want to reposition. So it becomes very very difficult To be in that position to actually identify, you know, which one are, you know, you are in one of that too But again, you know, if you are a follower of the category the good part happens that Something is already there in the market the acceptance might be there in the market And therefore you are trying to position yourself as saying that is a large market and probably I am also one of the part of the Ecosystem as one of the enablers. So therefore it becomes a little relevant in terms of connecting The problem probably or you have a certain data point to analyze Otherwise it becomes quite difficult if it is a category creator And if you don't have that expertise to evaluate then from where do you start with, right? And you know again today, I think so a lot of things are evolving very fast itself Although things might be in existence a few years ago. For example, mobility is not a space which is anything new I mean Uber has been doing for, you know, good number of years But now suddenly the buzzword is EV and you are looking at number of cars coming on the on the on the system And all the infrastructure are now so, you know, this is again a cycle which keeps happening And one is to really see what is the you know change which is coming into the ecosystem And if you can see the value Or the player who is coming with something unique That is where you actually go and you know back those kind of founders And of course it is not that easy is a very difficult job from both ends Where the entrepreneur is trying to convince us and probably we try to make up our mind because you always you know back selective few and It is only because probably you are able to see something more in them than the other hundred which might be talking the same language No, very true. And I think again one of the previous panelists made the point about Identifying the problem, you know that you're trying to solve Which sort of makes it a lot easier the challenge somewhat sometime is when you are Working with a solution to define the problem versus defining the problem to build the solution I think that's where I guess some of the things tend to go wrong uncle, you know capital efficiency Sort of frugality around building obviously very relevant topics across all economic cycles good good or bad Working capital has been a big, you know, challenge for early-stage businesses given the structured credit markets that Existed or in whatever limited manner have existed in the past From your perspective, how are you seeing the entire evolution of Working capital alternative structured credits etc. Therefore then enabling, you know building with capital efficiencies be it things like, you know revenue-based financing We had a you know a couple of folks from a venture debt side on the previous panel How do you see the the capital construction itself becoming a very important element of thinking about business building from a capital efficiency point of view? Yeah, I think you know In a network where all the three co-founders are chartered accountant and there is a large investor base of CFOs Working capital has always been a very very important consideration for our startups and You know one of the areas we identify for a startup is how to help them manage their working capital and And you know while the capital is there and and I you know just looking at just cost of capital, you know Raising equity to fund working capital is like the most expensive capital you can raise however If you have decent cash flows, then you still need to maintain debt to equity and so therefore you need to raise equity to be able to raise certain debt and Then you can use that debt to fund the working capital But what we have also tried to so Two things have happened one is we understand that our traditional banking system doesn't support this growth These startups don't have three years of history or they don't have the profitability on their books So the traditional lenders will not lend them So that is where the growth of the fintechs now whether it is because of the access to their books Through kata books or through their billing through Bharat pay or whatever right a lot of unique Startups have come from that angle. We have invested in like for example Bharat next Which is allowing you to use your own credit cards Which you know each credit card everybody knows it but nobody uses it Each credit card technically allows you 30 to 45 days of interest free credit, right? It's your ability to use it And so there are new unique solutions coming out to solve for working capital for the businesses But the other thing that we have focused on we have We have asked our founders to sacrifice a little bit of growth if required To work with clients where the working capital cycle is shorter And so therefore what happens is that it's a below the line and above the line issue So what is happening is that today people are showing EBITDA see it's all number fudgery people are showing EBITDA Why we are cash flow positive, but then they are paying so much interest expense that they're still cash flow negative So if you look at the cash flow statement, okay, you are positive on operating cash flow But then on your financing cash flow, you are significantly negative So the interest expense So what we are saying is it's okay Reduce your growth if you have to a little bit but or go for a Model where you get the capital better. So if you have to reduce the margins So if your gross margin was earlier, you know, 30% But if somebody is willing to it's a tata model tata has been doing it for ages If somebody is willing to give you cash and you have to give let go three four percent Fine go ahead and do it because it will save you more on the bottom line It will and a lot of businesses are struggling to grow because of working capital because there's also a limit How much these new age RBFs and all will give you funding for so, you know This is something which we're working with our starters because working capital can become a huge stumbling block for growth No, I think cash is king very very clearly and it's important to keep that in mind. I think on the lighter side best for founders and companies to stay away from CM1 CM2 CM3 CM infinity I think cash cash generation cash returns Ultimately counts the stability of the business model the value of your business, you know to how consumers, you know see it Actually, maybe just one last question and we can maybe turn it over to the audience You know if they'd if they'd like to ask any questions as well. I think one of the great manners in which You know this entire lean Building innovation collaboration, you know within the ecosystem Happens is really when startups sort of stand to work together, you know with each other in a collaborative manner It could be it could be you know open innovation sort of platforms It could be you know what we are seeing more more recently with low code No code and the ability to then build on top of that or development as a service, etc for founders who want to build with a with a frugal mindset a how important is really this You know collaboration with the broader ecosystem not just from a not just from a cost point of view But from a learning point of view from a you know faster scaling perspective and to any sort of you know Enabling platforms tools, etc. That you know, you've seen that may be useful for you know People in the room to know where they can use you know open innovation more effectively to build so I think Things today are at a point where there is a much deeper emphasis on community initiatives and I'm not necessarily referring to close communities Which may be driven by a certain fund which we might do for our portfolio companies in general And this event is an example of that as well So rather than you know trying to get innovative beyond the point and keep scratching I would say that go back to the basics enough communities or the last hundred years we have seen where they do work with each other and There are people who are employed. There are best practices which are shared even the last 48 to 96 hours that we have seen on the SVB side I can't imagine if a few hundreds of people would not have been on each of the WhatsApp groups Coordinating on what's happening. There would have been a much more chaotic world order It's a different debate that social media could have done differently So I'll keep that outside but factor the matter is that it is important to be plugged into those micro groups and Get into an open sharing mode I don't think a startup which is into credit or which is lending competes with another startup Which is lending after a point? Yes, it does But up till a particular point everybody knows that there are only six banks that can give you money Up till a point everybody knows what is the cost of capital going to be so rather than your Fund-raising guy going and discovering the whole market can we get into that level of building and it's not going to be Given the money is not going to be given to one or the other just because of the fact that you have some comparative information So that basic level we have already been seeing it's about people becoming open to share and discover more in terms of Tools I think optimising we actually have seen some examples in our growth companies, which go opposite After building to a point in time We are seeing a rationalization and the reason I gave the example of growth was exactly the playbook that we're following at that level and Founders are telling us that as a part of the rationalization plan We're actually pulling the plug of some of the tools because we are not able to get the requisite ROI For what we want to achieve So I would definitely question that where there are simple Excel's and other stuff available focus on that and there are enough freebies available Whether it's a server cost or whether it's in data infrastructure and all that please plug into and leverage it wholeheartedly it's perfectly fine to be shameless about some of these things and Be transparent about what you need ask for it and today it is possible for somebody or the other direct it So I would I would not over-optimize on spending a lot for creating those infrastructure and spending money to acquire customers Pmf is not a sign when you have more and more customers and you're doubling Pmf's a sign when your customers are your champions and we're getting in the new customers Absolutely, and I think just on the point of collaboration. There is enough Frameworks and enablers, you know be it what Microsoft does with startups with what Google does with startups what AWS does with startups I think it's just important to get plugged in be aware about absolutely the access that they have and build from there I think the beauty of this and I say this actually on behalf of all of us as investors as well I think we do want all our startups to succeed and we want all startups It doesn't have to be anyone's portfolio itself because the more Collaborative power that the ecosystem generates. I think we all become winners and founders becomes winners, you know Starting from there and that's why we become winners So I think that collaborative mindset with which investors also operate I think the same collaborative mindset is very important, you know for companies I'll just actually just ask one last question. If I may just add one more point Enough of our founders have done a great job When they do a meeting for asking capital from a follow-on investor at a series AB The single important takeaway is not what will you what does it take for you to give me a term sheet? The single most important factor is can you connect me to six of your startups who can be synergistic with me? If you're a B2B startup, you better be connected and servicing the Investes of the start find where you are raising money from if it's a B2B You can plug into marketing. Yeah, you can plug into infrastructure. Yeah, and there are lots of things to be leveraged So I would never miss those opportunities of interacting with people and when you are three founders or two founders One should be out there and spending a part of their time to leverage on do Absolutely, Ashish makes makes sense and I think that's very important. It's part of the hustle any which way I think you know Asking for help is equally important and I mean I I'm sure all of us are very happy to help where people sort of need Help and assistance. There's maybe one last question at our end and if anyone's got question Maybe for you Speed versus scale always a question founders want to You know figure out what's the best way and I know I think Will vary by business But any quick mental models that founders should be thinking about on making an evaluation of one over the other Or is it really a very difficult choice and it's probably both See, I don't think so, you know founder is really looking immediate, you know Growth the what happens once you raise external capital the kind of pressure It comes in terms of achieving your projection is a key cause of just going over boarded in terms of meeting certain numbers And when you try to do so and try to grow too fast at the early stage because you managed to now on board a Liability rather than a set where you are supposed to take the capital return in the multi-fold returns it becomes a very very difficult thing to balance for a founder and If we are continuously seeing some of the episodes is one of the reason for that according to me because you know There is a certain way only you can scale it is not a formula Which you think I would just borrow a playbook from us or some other part of the world plug in here and hey We have a 140 group population. You will be able to make a billion-dollar business overnight. It can't happen I don't think so it can ever happen anywhere in the world including this country We do have certain examples where some of the companies managed to scale quite fast and Also managed to grab a lot of eyeballs due to the funding But what are the odds of those numbers versus you look at traditional companies like Zoho or Zerodha? None of the people really talk about it Although we know all the matter in terms of how they built it for the first five years whether both of these companies It was a nightmare for them to to be there in the market to be able to scale to an extent that they could Service few thousand investors forget about any other number we imagine today And it was very difficult and that was a choice the founder took so it is not an easy market What I'm trying to say is good to have a thing that We can scale overnight or maybe three years or five years with a certain level of funding you take it from whatever Things available, but it's not good in the overall longer run and that is what everybody should be mindful about it Even in their projection I think the founder should be looking at realistically because once you commit yourself then of course people are going to chase you So I won't be anything anybody different because you took our money showing me a story Which I convinced and then suddenly things are going the next side Because now you have you know, maybe hundred other reasons to justify maybe my may be right But then don't commit, you know unnecessarily because it looks good to you Yeah, no, so I guess you know Speed at one point and time relevant scale at one point of time relevant Sustainable businesses that I think it's a point of time question in many ways And I think it continues to evolve as the business looks at its own journey And where they are with their own building process As well I think final thoughts from you as a from a you know from a founder perspective I don't know how you think about you know the same question I think in the initial stages of operations Founders are trying to figure out a lot of things I think at that time a lot of we should put a lot of effort into Defining the processes the people the human resources allocation of resources But once you have figured that out you should be ready to scale up and you should not be backing down From saying that no scaling slowly is the best way to go But take some time to figure out what are your moods or what are your processes? What are your risk controls that need to be put in place? So once that is done, I think scaling up should not be a question Thanks. I think and I don't want to keep people back from lunch any questions that any of us can help Navigate. I think yeah, we have a question there interesting discussion here Got got my questions answered and a lot of areas Like I'm into the metaverse area of where we're developing an idea like I As an investor perspective like What do you all look at when you're investing in a metaverse startup like he's creating a POC important or like Like the idea itself would work The question is like what would you invest in an idea or how important the POC is To move forward with an investment In a matter of a startup I just want to take that Hey, thanks for this. So I I don't think anybody will have an aversion to invest in an idea So that is possible. It's all always about what is the mandate each investor is chasing So to the extent you're going to an early-state fund, which is what most of us are I don't think that is going to be a challenge. What people are necessarily trying to figure out is What about this idea will drive people on to it and at the end of it Unfortunately, unfortunately, it comes down to the money that people are going to spend on it We like to talk about time is a metric that people spend on it It's a good proxy till you make money But the ability to try and have some proxy indicators on how this can monetize and what scale this can become So the founder ability yes one thing the idea yes But eventually the market size of the whole problem is equally critical a lot of these can't be estimated from the get-go But there are always going to be some of the other proxies that we can pick and put some of those and the click Is that somebody believes in the in it the same way or gives you feedback as to why they disagree with it? So I would always try and do this myself that if you're telling no to somebody purely on the idea side of it You always leave the person as to why you agree disagree with some of the things It's okay It's not a perfect world and some of us will miss many good investments and many of us will make some great investments Just a follow-up on that part like if the founder has figured out a monetization model and is looking for a working capital to build that product and scale up Like what would be the situation like I mean if the founder has figured out like a monetization model always looking for like working capital to develop it develop the mvp and show it to the the the industry experts, so What do you what advice do you give or like what do you would you be interested in investing in that in that phase? If I if I understood your question right you sing at the MVP stage if you're out in the market, what is the say He's already right so If you are only raising and I mentioned that when I was talking about it if you are only raising capital for working capital It's very expensive You know We are you know, so it's a very expensive source So you may still want to raise it to get that equity ratio, right? Or you may want to raise it because let's say for example IPV now has partnerships with Almost all the RBF and all those firms so once you become part of an IPV portfolio company Many of them will start favorably looking at you So that does make sense for you to raise capital from platforms or from funds which adds to that level of credibility So to your idea your effort and the credibility of the investor not just the capital can provide you the funds So if you need working capital to grow you need to raise it one way or the other Traditional banking may not be available to you and so therefore this can be a good route Thank you Any other question? Hi, my name is Arjun. I'm the co-founder of a tokenization company called Ruba finance We're actually an IPV portfolio company. So thank you for the support I was actually very curious on what the VC world and the private equity space Since you were probably in talks with them are actually thinking about tokenization Hamilton Lane tokenize a 2.2 billion dollar fund KKR is tokenized the health care fund It's kind of reduced the entry barriers to investment to a whole bunch of people transparency issues more frequent valuations correction and a liquid secondary market for Startup shares like us. What are your thoughts about this sector and do you guys have any interest in this right now? Would love to know well, I've already put my money where my mouth is so I'll let others answer. Thank you so much for that though We shake you have any thesis on it because we don't have a thesis on tokenization unfortunately, so we anchor you need to Talk a little bit about what what build this through? Yeah, see Like again at IPV we support ideas, and I'm a big fan of tokenization I believe it is actually one of the relevant use cases for blockchain and it can take care of a lot of you know Work that we do I actually I actually read a funny meme where You know it said that Satoshi Nagamato has come out of his Hibernation and saying that this was the precise reason. I created crypto. This is not the time to short crypto Right, this is the time where your banks are failing right your that is the reason why? You know blockchain currency was created, so I believe it's a good use case I Have started seeing in the government noises being made where people have started saying I heard Pius Goyal saying the other day where He said that we are not against web 3.0. We are not in the favor of crypto So I think that's a very positive development where people are distinguishing between the two so far People just equate the two together. I I may not understand crypto that well. I'm still not saying there is not a space for it Maybe there is a space maybe those use cases have not evolved to the stage where Somebody with average intelligence like me can start appreciating it. That hasn't stopped me from trading it Purely as a speculative asset But I still believe that there are far more use cases of this tech That you are going after in particular for example Which has a future it could be as an investor we understand we are here for a long haul It may not be you know I invest today and then six months later You're doing a large series in you know ten months later. You're doing a large series B It will take time for the use cases to come and therefore our focus with you have also been that you know Whatever we build we build for the long haul. There is no we are not it's not something we're doing for tomorrow and another thing is that Habits along with regulations. It's a very Difficult area we get into but it doesn't mean that it is not possible today. We have seen These tomatoes and the flipkarts and the Amazon's all becoming big 12 years back. They were solving the same habit plus regulation We couldn't deliver medical online People were not ordering online, but today 1mg farm easy. They're all large businesses So the path may be the same that some businesses took 10-12 years back, but they could do it You guys can do it Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. I think it's extending on that the point that you made about the government stand on it Right, and I think actually the Indus Valley report first I guess the first page actually talks about how blockchain has effectively been used But I think also as government adoption of use of blockchain increases I think you will see very interesting use cases come out of it. I mean land records for example is one of seems to be the most Low-hanging fruit that exists Should be solved for and can be rapidly make a big difference to the market, you know as it stands healthcare again You know just with the stack building and the sort of data that it's created out of it and being able to have a Trusted source to sort of route it through again makes you know potential of what can be created from there You know phenomenal, you know for sure. I think the adoption is still a little behind But the opportunity is I think tremendous and the clarity on crypto Being different. I think will only sort of help make things a lot easier for future And also there'll be enough of these which will work for a certain segment So what is going to be key thing is how we can as all the stakeholders put together How you go after certain use cases real estate is something that? Fragmentation all of those access to a lot of assets can be solved So in some of those it will work in many others it might not today It's only a matter of fact that today it might not work. We eventually after ten years It can ideas not to solve and optimize for those which may happen after ten years Ideas to focus on the visible which is today. Absolutely. I think baby steps is what it will need You know to succeed. So I think with that don't want to hold up anyone else for lunch I think we're running behind anyways. I've just been reminded of that. So thank you everyone for sort of patiently spending time with us and you know Sort of delaying your lunch for a bit. Thanks to all of you as well I think you know great discussion and appreciate, you know the insights and the inputs as well Good luck to all of you, and I hope you enjoy the rest of the event