 Can you improve your quality of sleep, de-stress, enhance your focus and boost your mood with a pair of headphones? Oh, come on. Well, my guest today says yes. In just a minute, I'll speak with Dr. Daniel Cartledge. Dr. Cartledge is an interventional pain physician at the National Pain Institute in Delray Beach, Florida. Along with his brother, Dr. Richard Cartledge, he invented and patented Zen headphones. These special earbuds are designed to actually stimulate the vagus nerve, which you've heard me talk about in my books. It's the communication pathway between your brain and your other organs. Today we're going to talk about the science behind Zen and how your brain relates to your overall health. So Dr. Cartledge, welcome to the program. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. Alright, so as a fellow medical device inventor, what the heck led you to create medical devices in the first place? Well I was actually, in my pain practice, I was actually using an auricular acupuncture procedure to help with chronic pain. And that was actually part of the inspiration for tapping into the vagus nerve and creating this product. So for our listeners, what's an auricle? What's auricular? So auricular is in the ear. So we are tapping into the vagus nerve, which is a cranial nerve. It's a tenth cranial nerve and there is a branch in the ear. So our device uses patented earbuds that actually stimulate the vagus nerve at the level of the ear. So basically you're wearing earbuds like the ones I have in. And so the vagus nerve runs by the ear, is part of the ear. I mean, how did you figure this out from your acupuncture practice? So actually the device was actually auricular acupuncture that was tapping into not just the vagus nerve but other nerves, other locations on the ear as well. And I brought up this, I discussed this product with my brother who's a physician as well as an inventor. And we basically looked into the science. How is this helping people, putting these needles in the ear and stimulating them with electricity? And we found out that this seemed to be related to the vagus nerve. And we found some very, very interesting studies. There was a study that was actually an implanted vagus nerve stimulation. It was actually surgically implanted in the body. And this was to treat seizures, to treat epileptics, seizure disorder. And it was very interesting because after the study, these patients were supposed to come back to get these devices ex-planted out of the body. And a lot of them hesitated. They didn't want to have these devices taken out. And the reason for that was they felt good, they felt euphoric, they felt relaxed from it. And again, this was from implanted vagus nerve stimulation. So that led us to look into the vagus nerve as being this basically center messenger in the ear that could help people relax, feel good, focus, and all the other benefits of vagal nerve stimulation. So that was really a turning point. It was actually my brother who discovered that study. And that helped lead us to the vagus nerve. And that's what we focused on with Zen by Nirvana. Interesting. Your brother is a cardiac surgeon. He's chief of cardiac surgery at Boca Raton Regional Hospital. So this is fun. So how do two brothers who are experts in different areas, what's it like to work together? What's the process like? Well, it's fun. You know, he's my older brother, definitely more experienced than myself. And he actually had a lot of experience with medical patents. I believe he has actually over 100 medical patents to his name. So he's always been an inventor, really knew how to work around the whole patenting process. So he was my go-to for this. And it was convenient that it happened to me and my brother as well. So really appreciated his experience with medical patents and all that research that goes behind it. So what you're saying is, since he's not here, is that you're the genius behind all this and he's just the workhorse. Is that right? Right. You won't say that on this show, right? You won't be very happy. No, we won't say that at all. Okay, so before we get into actually zen and how that happens, so why is your brain so important in so many aspects in your health that you're trying to tap into? Okay. Well, you know, great question. I mean, the biggest nerve basically is responsible for really, really stimulating the parasympathetic nervous system. So there's the sympathetic nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous system. The sympathetic nervous system is the fight or flight, okay? Cortisol is released and epinephrine neurotransmitters that really give you energized, pumped up, and also maybe are somewhat anxiety-provoking, whereas the sympathetic nervous system, which the vagus nerve stimulates and balances is basically the rest that digest the relaxation. So basically we are balancing the nervous system and promoting relaxation by stimulating the parasympathetic nervous system through the vagus nerve. So are you saying that over the last, I don't know, 20, 30 years that this balance between sympathetic and parasympathetic systems have been all screwed up? Well, I'll tell you, I think that as we age, there's a little more chaos in our bodies, you know, through and through. And, you know, it's just part of the aging process where we probably balance out a much more sympathetic than parasympathetic activity over time. You know, it's just part of, you know, unfortunately, what happens to our bodies as we age. And, you know, let's face it, we're all, as Americans, most of the people I know, including myself, undergo, we deal with a lot of stress, you know, life can be very stressful. It's nice having something that can balance you out, help you relax, you know, without drugs, without any chemicals, you know, basically we're tapping into the body using electricity. So, I mean, are there, in your practice, are there more, you know, neurologic issues now than there were 10, 20 years ago? You know, I'll tell you, it's interesting. I think that it's really hard to say. You're saying as a generational thing, have things changed? Are there more neurological disease processes now than before? It's hard to say because I think people are more likely to be treated in general now. You know, even my specialty, pain management, I mean, people didn't really talk about or even know about pain management before the 1970s. So, it's actually a relatively new specialty. So, what did people do in the 40s and 50s? You know, were they more stoic? Did they just accept the fact, you know, when I'm older, I have arthritis, I have back problems, I have more pain. You know, we definitely seem to be a society now that wants to fix things, you know, and fix them very quickly. We don't want to deal with anything, anything that hurts. You know, we want to change that. We want to find a treatment plan. So, I think maybe, you know, are there more neurologic processes going on or are we just being treated more commonly and more frequently? You know, that's the question in general. Gotcha. So, one of the things that I've written about is that the vagus nerve is a two-way street from the brain down to the gut and various organs like the heart, which I was originally interested in. But it's also a street from the gut and the gut microbiome up to the brain. So, are you are you stimulating both directions or how? Take me into the science of how vagal nerve stimulation works. Sure. So, again, you know, we're we're stimulating the vagus nerve at the ear level. So, we think that there is both an afferent and efferent effects from this. So, it seems since this is a cranial nerve, you know, there's a direct connection to the brain that's stimulating the vagus nerve at this level of the ear is actually sending a signal and helping to increase feel-good neurotransmitters in the brain, acetylcholine, serotonin and help you relax, help you feel better, increase the mood overall. Now, acetylcholine, that's helping one neuron talk to another neuron, right? And obviously, a lot of the dementia drugs are based on manipulating acetylcholine in one way or another. Are you seeing that people can think more clearly? Does it affect memory or what's the what? What, at least, is the anecdotal experience with this? Yes, something something that we hear very, very frequently. And I find this myself when using Zen by Nirvana is an improvement in focus. If I have to do something mundane that I've been putting off because it's it's not fun, it's boring, it's tedious. I use the device and it really helps me focus. It almost, you know, takes away the background noise from life, if you will, and helps me focus on my tax tax tax, excuse me, at hand. And there have been there are a lot of studies going on, right? Some past studies and some current studies going on right now with using vagal nerve stimulation for treating dementia, even treating Alzheimer dementia as well. So again, we have not done these studies with with our device, but there are vagal nerve simulations going on to treat dementia. So it's interesting that you mentioned the acetylcholine because you're right, that is a information processing neurotransmitter and that does relate to memory and thoughts and and all our mental processing. So that's that's something that we'll see a lot more of in the future as these studies come out and really see, you know, what kind of benefits are coming out for using vagal nerve stimulation to treat dementia and Alzheimer's. So why shouldn't I just go out and get myself a vagus nerve stimulator implanted in my neck? Instead of putting a couple of earbuds in my ear. Well, you know, I've always said, as I always say to my patients, always go conservative first, always try, you know, noninvasive before invasive. You know, look, there are some vagal nerve implanted devices. There's there's one to treat depression. There's one to treat a seizure disorder. There's one for weight loss as well. And these have been very effective, very, very effective treatments for people. But again, it's surgery. Anytime there's surgery, there's a risk. So we're offering, again, a consumer device that is really no different than putting earbuds in your ear and listening to music. You know, again, we're not we're not crossing the skin. This is transcutaneous. So OK, so take me through what's going on. So you're not putting earbuds in your ear and you're listening to soothing music that is going to make you kind of zone out and feel bliss and happiness. So there are actually three different ways to use Zen by Nirvana. For one, you can use it without music. So again, there's two earbuds. It's the left ear above that actually stimulates the vagus nerve. OK, both earbuds have speakers for listening to music. So you have a couple of different options. There is there is a mode that will that doesn't use music. You don't have to use music at all. We're basically we have some preset waveform patterns that you can use. There's four different choices and that would be without music again. There's another. There's a sync mode where basically you can listen to the music of your choice on your iPhone itunes or Pandora or Spotify. And the signal to the vagus nerve will actually sink to the music. OK, so it'll be different depending on the song and depending of the genre of music that you're listening to. And there's another mode called ambient mode that we wanted for people that go to public music venues like concerts. And there's actually a speaker that will pick up the ambient music and and sync that signal to the vagus nerve stimulation. So you have you have some choices, basically. Wow. So all right, now help me through this. So if I'm listening to Aerosmith, you're saying that your device might actually be able to call me down, syncing with with Aerosmith? Absolutely, yes. So, you know, Aerosmith will probably give you some good signal as well. You know, there's there's some great beats, great guitar in that, you know, as opposed to listening to air supply, you know, which will be a lot less stimulation, you know, much softer music. So but, you know, it's also a tasting. I mean, some people want to relax. They want the music itself to be very relaxing, you know, classical piano music, which obviously is not going to give you as much stimulation as the Aerosmith. But, you know, the combination of the relaxing piano music with this with this vagal nerve stimulation could be absolutely enjoyable and make you feel good. All right. So you said weight loss. And I know my listeners and viewers perked up and said weight loss. Tell me more, please. So, you know, there is an implanted device for weight loss. And again, we haven't tested our unit for weight loss. We're not going to make any of those claims. But they're definitely the vagus nerve, as you know, really affects a lot of body systems. I mean, heart, lungs and digestive system. So with this device, they're really tapping into the digestive synchronization of the vagus nerve. You know, the the the relation between, excuse me, the relations between the vagus nerve and the digestive system to increase the feeling of satiety and decrease appetite. Now, this is not your area of expertise, but I'll throw it out there. Any any evidence of vagal nerve stimulation affecting heart rate variability? Yes. So great question. And I figured from your cardiothoracic surgery background, you'd be asking about this. Oh, you've been studying for the test. Come on. Right. I've been studying for the test. So, you know, there definitely have been a lot of studies that show that vagal nerve stimulation, especially at the oracle, do you promote slowing down of the heart rate, heart rate variability, you know, which a lot of times is occurs when people are calmer. People are feeling more relaxed. OK. And that's actually with your with the oracle stimulation, not some implantable device, right? Correct. So these were auricular studies that were done. Yes. That showed heart rate variability. All right. Dumb question. Why not stimulate both ears? Well, you know, this is a consumer device and the right side, the right vagus nerve has a more direct link to cardiac function. And again, so as a consumer device, we were really tapping into the vagus nerves, ability to relax, make people feel good, improve their mood and help their sleep. So we're not, you know, we're not we're not we're not promoting this as any kind of cardiac treatment. So we're sticking to the left side of vagus nerve, the left ear only. So as a consumer device, do you have to get FDA clearance or you can go right ahead and use this? Whatever. As a consumer device, we do not have to get FDA clearance for this. Gotcha. OK. All right. Now, this is fascinating. So how how long to take you guys to actually develop this? How did, you know, the Zen come about as a consumer? Tell me the whole story. Sure, I'll give you the story. So my brother and I founded the company in 2014 and our first prototypes were done actually in for 2016. We first showed we actually the company is called Nirvana. Then we we've actually changed it to Nirvana and the device was called Nirvana as well. So Nirvana at that time launched at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, 2016, and we actually won best product in the health and digital wellness. Congratulations. So we're thank you. So we're very excited about that. We got a lot of a lot of PR times international media attention, you know, when we launched. So it was very, very exciting. And then basically just as past 2009 end of 2019, actually in October, we came out with our second generation. So our first generation was was a little a little bit of boxy looking and maybe looked a little dated, wasn't as high tech as we wanted to be. But it worked and people really loved it, you know, and our new device, which is now called Zen. And again, our company went from Nirvana to Nirvana. This is very sleek. It's app based with Bluetooth. It has a rechargeable battery. The sound quality of the earbuds is much, much better than our generation one. And it's also a stronger signal. So we feel that we've come out with a really much, much better product. So we're very excited. All right. So tell me, tell me how this, how do you use this thing? What does it look like? Show us. Sure. OK, I will show you talk us through as well. So so this is the this is the device right here. OK, this is the generator and then have the and it looks like a skinny hockey puck, a skinny hockey puck. Yeah, exactly. All right. And I'm actually going to I don't know if you can see the illumination there. Yeah, well, it's very, very exotic looking, exotic looking, right? And then it's connected to these earbuds. So this is this is the generator, the generator. And there's really only one button on the generator, the on off switch. Everything else is everything else is done through the phone, through the app. OK, all right. And then have these two earbuds. So the the left earbud, this is the active stimulator earbud has white. It's labeled, of course, left ear and then right ear. So only the only the left earbud is actually stimulating the vagus nerve. Both of these, of course, have speakers. So you're listening to OK. So can you can you feel this stimulating the nerve? I mean, are you getting electric shock therapy? Help me through this. So this is not this is not as severe as like ECT, but, you know, you can you can increase or decrease the actual signal. And most people will start very low in the beginning. Since I've been using this for a long time, I use it on the max on the max stimulation pretty much every time I use it. Well, listening to Aerosmith, right? Yeah. Yes, this is the Aerosmith. Basically, at the lower settings, it almost feels like ants crawling. Ah, OK. And then as you get stronger, you feel more of a, you know, pulsing, stronger stimulation in the ear. So, you know, it's a problem. I mean, we have a lot of people who are audiophiles and, you know, music aficionados. And they like to they like to really feel a strong signal. And a lot of people actually love the sensation. You listen to music and then you listen to music with Zen. And it's you're really feeling the beat, you know, with that synchronization of the vagal nerve stimulation to the music. You know, it really adds another dimension to the music as well. So, again, for our audience, many people on your specialty use TENS devices and that uses a little electrical current. Is that the sort of current sensation people are going to feel in their ear or is that weight loss? No, actually, it could be compared to a TENS unit simulation. Absolutely. You know, of course, it feels different. TENS, you're using in a large surface area and a low back. Right. Whereas this is so localized to the the oracle. But yes, it could feel like that, almost like a little tingling, you know, again, ants crawling, kind of tingling sensation. And then, you know, a little more a little more pulsative as you go stronger with the signal itself. But yeah, absolutely. It could be compared to a TENS unit signal. OK, so now we're in the ear. You've got it hooked up. How do you use it? How long do you use it? Do you use it? I'll just throw out some examples. If you're going to do something that requires a lot of mental concentration, do you use it? If you want to go to sleep, do you use it? Do you want to feel happy? Do you use it? And so how do we do it? Right. So so we're recommending two 15 minute sessions a day. OK. And we have a lot of people that actually will use it right before they go to bed to sleep better, wake up feeling more refreshed. Again, people like myself that use it to get a task, you know, sometimes to get a mundane task done because it makes me feel good. It makes the task more enjoyable and it helps me focus. And so people use it differently. You know, we also have a lot of people that are using it. A lot of athletes are using it after they work out to help them recover. You know, they say it feels better. They're they're feeling less pain, less soreness. And it's helping to relax them as well after their workouts. So this is kind of an interesting, you know, another another interesting use for athletics, post recovery, post workout recovery. And are there I take it this isn't pseudo science. This is there's actual studies that say this happens. Absolutely. There are there are tons of studies on vagal nerve stimulation and it's even there's studies on, you know, besides just this this wellness chapter that we're working on as a consumer product, there's been studies for, again, treating dementia, memory loss from Alzheimer's disease. There's also been a lot of studies that have shown vagal nerve stimulation to be very promising for post traumatic stress disorder. They're even studying treating autism as well. And just just a lot of different things. You know, again, some of the things we talked about weight loss, of course, seizure disorder, there's also a lot of rheumatologic studies as well, where they're they believe that the vagal nerve stimulation is decreasing inflammation in the body. And they're they're doing studies with patients with rheumatoid arthritis. So it's really really tons of studies that that have been done and tons of studies that will be going on in the future. It's very interesting, really encompassing a lot of different, a lot of different medical issues. Huh. All right. Well, you know, it's been great, you know, having you on the program because I can tell you so much for having me. I can tell you our listeners, I would guarantee I've never heard about this. So where can my audience learn about you and your work? Sure. Our website is nuvanallife.com. Neuvanallife.com. And we're on Twitter and Facebook. And there's a lot of articles. I'm sorry. Oh, Instagram as well. Ah, yeah. So it's Neu. Neuvanallife.com is the website. And dumb question, can they get your device on Amazon or they got to go direct to you? They have to go directly through the websites. Gotcha. Okay. So if they type that in on Amazon, that's not you. That's not us. Exactly. All right. Well, you know, this has been this has been great fun. And hopefully you'll hopefully you'll send one out and I'll give it a try and give me a shout out. I'll make sure we send one to you. Absolutely. Thank you so much for this opportunity. Really, really enjoyed it. I watched some of your podcasts are fantastic. I'm definitely learning about diet. Oh, very good. Very one of the things that I shouldn't be eating. So Well, maybe you can, I'm not going to say this, but maybe you can put the earbud in and eat lectins all you want. I didn't say that, people. All right. So it's time for our audience question. Annabelle bentos on YouTube wrote in and asked, Dr. Gundry, what is your opinion about homemade kombucha? So, you know, homemade kombucha is a great idea. But please, please, please watch the sugar content. I've had some patients bring me their homemade kombucha and it's like having root beer soda. It is so sweet. The object of the game is to have the fermentation process use up all the sugar in your kombucha. That's why I've said before, when you go to the stores or the health food stores, please look at the label and look at the sugar content because some of them are sweetened to be a sugary beverage. And that's really not what you're looking for. But great question. Yeah, make your own. All right. So that's all we got time for Dr. Cartlett. Great to have you. And we'll see you. And we'll see you next week on the Dr. Gundry podcast. Before you go, I just wanted to remind you that you can find the show on iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts, because I'm Dr. Gundry and I'm always looking out for you.