 Hi, I'm Chris Rowan. You may have seen me before if you haven't. I'm Chris Rowan. Okay, I'm Richard Clement. So I look after Digital for a company called Aspen Pharmacare. We're actually one of the great success stories coming out of South Africa in the last few years. We based there, obviously, our biggest country that we were in first was Australia. And at our peak we were turning over here about a billion dollars. That's dropped back significantly as we've moved around our product portfolio. But we are quite significant and we're now growing internationally very, very quickly. And I've got the job, unfortunately, of having to try and keep all the countries going with their digital efforts with very, very little money and very, very quickly. And WordPress lends itself quite nicely to that. So I've actually been working with WordPress for quite some time. This was just a little personal project that I had in 2006. That was my first exposure to WordPress. Some time ago I got a bit herbal and got quite into the peak oil and sustainability and things like that. And as I said, I wasn't really interested at that point in what you could do with WordPress. It was just very much for me a blog engine. But we've moved considerably past that since. So the pharma industry is an interesting industry. We actually sell products to people who don't use our products and who don't pay for our products. So if you think about it, we actually go and sell to doctors in terms of recommending them to write prescriptions for our products. But we actually sell our products into wholesalers who then sell the product onto pharmacy. None of these people actually pay for them at the end of the day. The government mostly pays for the product with a copayment by the end user. The industry's changed a lot over the last few years. You know, many, many years ago that you've all heard the stories and may well hold the opinion that pharma companies are all evil, horrible people. And to be honest, that was a fair assessment some years ago. Some of the big innovative pharma companies that really had the monopoly on some of the products were really charging like a wounded bull for some of these things. But the industry has changed. A lot of those blockbuster products now have come off of patent and are available as generics. And so we do find that there's constant downward pressure on pricing. The government tell us every year, I think this year will give you 10% less than we did last year for that product. So we're really constantly facing these sorts of issues. And the industry is becoming one of high volume, low margin. We sell lots and lots of product, but we don't actually make lots of money for it. On top of that, globally we're facing increasing compliance demands. So I've had to spend the last few months, as I'm sure many of you have here, dealing with the fallout from GDPR. But on top of that, we have an increasing layer of compliance requirement from the European Medicines Agency. So we're really copying it every which way we turn. And so much time is wasted on these sorts of things. We also have now a new generation of healthcare professionals coming through. They're younger, they're more digitally savvy. They expect us to communicate with them using new digital tools. Also corporate healthcare is growing. So I don't know if you guys are familiar with primary health. So these are the concept of the big medical centers owned by the corporation. Doctors' private practices are bought out. They go and work for that corporation for a period of time. And really everything is regimented and controlled by the corporate entity. So we used to be able to send physical mailings out to doctors to talk about the products that we had, emails, etc. These things are harder and harder to get to the doctor. And it's harder and harder to get face time with the doctor. So we're looking at new technologies, particularly using mobile to get to them where they are. And of course everything is moving so quickly. Digital healthcare is such a massively growing space. We really have to be agile and nimble just to keep up. And we don't have a huge amount of money to invest in these things. So internally what we do, we tend to talk about, this is actually a slide from a presentation I gave to the board of directors a few weeks ago. And these guys tend not to really understand digital. They are of a certain vintage where what is digital? They don't really get it at all. So we talked about what digital can offer both internally and externally by reducing the timelines for developing, for example, marketing materials. We improve the agility of the business. We reduce the required resources of us to deliver marketing materials to someone digitally. It's going to be a lot less than producing printed materials. So it's reproducible. It's also compliant. So as long as you channel your marketing effort properly, it's much easier to make sure that every country is delivering the same message in a consistent way. So it does help with that compliance and it does reduce costs. We also use the tools and again, basically WordPress for me is my Swiss Army knife. Whenever somebody comes to me and says I want to solve this problem, the first thing I do is think about how we might use WordPress to do that. And so we improve collaboration internally and we actually drive all of Aspen's digital communications needs through the business using WordPress in one form or another. And we communicate with our millennial customers in the manner that they would expect. And what I say customers, I do mean internally and externally. So it's not just the doctors, the healthcare professionals, the nurses. It's also our staff internally who want these tools. And that helps us. All of these things help us to deliver the top and the bottom line profitability and turnover because we are reducing costs all the time. So I just want to introduce you to what we've done in Australia because this is where it all started with the Aspen story digitally. We immediately were cost positive or return on investment positive. We started the website in Australia 13 years ago. And the first thing we did, we used to send out mailings, physical mailings to doctors and offer them something like pens or post-it notes. You know the story, some kind of gift for answering some questions and sending back a business reply paid card. So there's obviously quite a high cost in that and it also takes a lot of time. Because typically the BRP card would go back to the mailing house and then the mailing house would collect the data for you. And then weeks later, eventually the cards would go back to the rep for them to deliver whatever the good he was. We eliminated that overnight 13 years ago by putting all of our fulfillment through the website. And since then, we've actually had over half a million requests for items through the website from 20,000 healthcare professionals in Australia. So each of those represents a call opportunity for the rep. Each of those gives the rep a chance to go and sit down with the doctor even if it's for a couple of minutes and talk about our products. So we managed to position the business in this country because we were engaging so frequently with the doctors in one way or another as a tried and trusted brand. And it's difficult in Australia because it is a difficult geography. You can't put reps everywhere. And I do remember once getting a really nice email from a healthcare professional working on an Aboriginal station. And he said, it's fantastic. I can get the same sort of information from your website that I do from a rep and I can order samples and I'm seven hours drive from anywhere. But I can still engage with you and get that. And this is 13 years ago. Now, I mean, obviously the market's changed considerably. We used to these sorts of tools then. And we actually came up with a little cartoon character, which we called Eric the E rep because we needed a way for our older sales reps to engage with our older doctors and try and give them some idea of what we were trying to do with this website. So we really have been by using a more mature sales force, experienced people, early adopters of this technology in Australia and we proved to be quite an effective test bed. So this is the first version. This is from 2006. And I built that myself in-house using ASP. The shopping cart was coded so that we only had one sales team at the time. It was really easy that the post codes were mapped to the rep and the doctor would place an order for a sample or whatever it might be. And then in the back end, the system would work out which rep to send the order to. So nice and simple. In 2011, we actually bought Sigma's pharmaceutical business and suddenly we went from, you know, a company of 35 people to a company of 1,000 people, multiple sales teams, lots and lots of products. And so we actually rebuilt the website with various other tools into Zend framework. And what we're doing now, I'll just go forward a slide, is this is where we've now rebuilt the entire corporate website for the world now into WordPress. And this is, I'll come back to this in just a moment. This is the look and the feel that we're just building for Australia. But I just wanted to flip back to this one because we do also monthly provide key opinion leader talks to GPs. So this is, again, it's all driven off of WordPress. It's a very, very simple. We don't do anything complicated with this, but we do do all the video production in-house and then use this to drive that content out to doctors. So in 2017, we did make the decision or I made the decision after being beaten to death by a lot of agencies that we really wanted to make WordPress our corporate standard for web development. And I say beaten to death. I had over the years such poor experiences with a lot of agencies telling me that WordPress just wasn't up to it. It's a blog tool. It's just not right. You need to use something like Drupal or something more robust or, look, we can custom code that. Or my favorite, we've got a custom CMS for you. And I've been down that path and really don't like it. So we settled on WordPress. And the other thing that we did with the corporate site especially is we built the thing with Beaver Builder. And I'm sure there are a whole host of different opinions in this room about the value of page builders. But what we wanted to do was try and create something that was quick to reproduce that we could almost make a Lego kit of modules for. So that when we were rolling out to another country, they could quite easily select which blocks on which modules they wanted to use that were already fairly well pre-populated with content. So if they wanted to use the ticker bar, they can easily just import it in and drag it around to where they wanted it. And that's worked really well for us. We haven't had any issues with Beaver Builder. And anyway, I'll talk a bit more about that later. So we probably don't use it quite the way I originally envisaged because we're now rolling out sites so quickly that what we tend to do is just clone the site. And then I've got a chat that sits in France who's really familiar now with Beaver Builder. And he can pop in and in fact developing the French site once we have the content from the French team. And I now have just signed up for a trial for content snare because I've got to find a better way to get the content out of these people. It's my worst nightmare. But he was able to put that together in two or three days once he had that content. And it's working really nicely for us. Now the next thing we're doing, this goes back to that corporatization of health care issue. In Australia, we've currently built, we're rebuilding the Australian site from Zend into WordPress. It's been a really long slog because we were building, originally we built it headless at the WordPress site because we're now driving from it a native app. And this is taking currently the best components from our website to deliver it to the doctors in their pocket. We've got a lot more we want to do with this. This is very much a first generation. It's literally the minimum viable product. And the idea is to have obviously a new section. The doctors can come in and order the samples and the educational materials that they're used to doing information about our products. They can find who their rep is. They can find information about conferences and all of the Aspen altitude content, the video content, we've got the full library in here. And we've actually got it configured as well as now as a video podcast that they can hook directly up to in their favorite app. So this is all being driven via custom APIs that hook up into our WordPress site. And for the shopping cart component, we've actually used for the site. This is slightly different, but for the site, we're using a hacked version of WooCommerce. So what we've actually done is we're using the front end of WooCommerce and rip the back end off. And we've built on to that a solution that works for us in the same way that the orders. There's no transaction involved. There's no money, but the order just goes to the right rep based upon their postcode and the product. And that's worked beautifully. And then this all hooks up to the same APIs. So it's very rudimentary. As I said, it's a minimum viable product. This is just an example of one of the core brand sites that we have. So we have a product that there might be some mums in the room have heard of S26 baby formula. That's one of our key key brands and they have a very nice website for mums, which is again, it's hooked up via our CRM system, which is unfortunately Microsoft Dynamics. But everything's hooked up together and works really nicely. So this is probably our biggest site in terms of traffic in Australia. And then we've got bunches. I mean, there's dozens of individual brand sites that are all sitting on WordPress. And then internally, now this is very crisp and clean. We had messages coming from our sales management. The reps were getting just too many emails. We don't want the reps getting all these emails from you, brand managers, you marketing people. It's a damn nuisance. Every day they've got these things they've got to deal with. So it's like, well, why don't we, instead of doing that, we use a plugin called MailPoet. And essentially what happens is the brand manager goes in and writes a post in the back end of Aspen antidote. And they tick which sales team, which is just categories. They tick which sales team. They want to receive that piece of content. And then on a Friday night at six o'clock, MailPoet will sweep through and create from those categories a customized newsletter for each sales team. And it works absolutely beautifully. And all we now say is, look, the one thing you have to look at every week is this newsletter. That's going to have all the marketing communications for that week for you. It is very clean. It is just simply to replace an email, although the actual email that they get is a bit more interesting. So the next step was we need an intranet. And Aspen has grown very, very quickly. In fact, this is our 20th year. And we've gone from virtually nothing to now major multinational. So we've grown very quickly. And from an IT perspective, we've grown in a very syndicated manner. Every country's been kind of left to do their own thing. And now they're trying to sort of back fit more of a group approach to this. But what it meant was when the company said we need an intranet, the IT guys, of course, jumped up and said, well, SharePoint, we can do this in SharePoint. And they played with that for a couple of years and decided after they'd spent lots of money that they couldn't actually do it in SharePoint. So we came along and we built it in WordPress. And we've actually done this on the next step, by the way, was, well, can you at least give a single sign on hooked up to the Active Directory? Oh, yes, we can do that. Yes, we can definitely hook it up to the Active Directory right at the end. No, actually, we can't because we don't have consistent Active Directory's around the world. And so there's no single solution. So then we had to go build a membership solution into it as well. So the way we work this is that this is the group site. And then we're rolling out individual sites for the different businesses. It's all a multi-site solution. And basically everybody gets registered based upon their email address. They get access to either everything or to different country sites. And this has worked out really nicely. And built within that, we are using a few plugins to add functionality. So one of the things we're using is, what's it called? Approved.me. I don't know if you're familiar with that. It's a really great way. If you need to get digital signatures done, this product is actually compatible. It's compliant with the EU and the US regulations on digital signatures. And will provide you with compliant documents. So this is really handy where we have staff, for example, that all have to sign off annually on a code of conduct. I have had to fiddle with it a bit because one thing that approved me doesn't do at the moment is batch uploading of users. And it doesn't connect properly to the user database. So I've had this awful pluge of hooking this up through an email passer into Airtable via Zapier. And it goes all around the houses, but it does do the job. And then the other thing that we're using with it is LearnDash. We use LearnDash in combination with a couple of plugins by a company called Uncanny Owl, who've got a nice plugin called TinCanny. And basically what that does is, if any of you are familiar with eLearning, you can use tools like Articulate or iSpring or the Adobe Captivate products to develop SCORM compliant or TinCann API compliant content. And we can upload that into LearnDash and track it all. And basically all this comes up really nicely in the profile of the user. And it presents really well. The only problem I have here again is the IT guys who originally said, well, you know, we're looking at group-wide learning management systems. And I said, well, I can knock something up for under a grand. And their attitude is, well, if it's under a million dollars, it can't be very good. But they do now want to use it to do their own training. So I think I'm getting there with that argument. And that's just another example of one of the things, one of the modules that iSpring produce is a thing called iSpring. I think it's called Flex or Flow. And you can take a PDF file and convert it into a flipbook or a single slide solution. But that's all trackable being that Uncanny Owl TinCanny tool. It'll tell you which pages the users read and whether they've completed it. And again, it's really useful if you've got content that you really need users to be able to read. And that's it from that part of the presentation. So I'll hand over now to Chris. Thank you. Nice, Richard. Thank you for that. I've got a few questions first, and then we'll open the floor to questions. So you mentioned the Australian business and international business. So what percentage of your global business is Australian? So when I started with Aspen in 2005, Australia would have been about 50%, 60% of the business. We were a huge chunk. We were the first country outside of South Africa to go live. And we were a significant chunk of the business. But as we popped up and popped across the world, now it's dropped down to about 14%. But we are still probably definitely the leaders in digital in terms of actually doing some decent marketing. We're definitely the leaders. Okay. And as that changes, what sort of impact has that had on your business? Well, as the other countries have come on board, it's happened so quickly because we tend to acquire other businesses. So we, for example, moved away from, we were originally a generic company and we've now moved into sort of targeted therapeutic areas. And we've done that by buying big chunks of AstraZeneca and big chunks of Glaxo. So, you know, something we've got a big factory over here and these guys now want to do a virtual reality tour of the factory in the Netherlands. We've got this massive Chinese business. Apparently we're quite small but we've got 700 reps. And this is tiny in China. So really, it does lead to the sorts of problems of, you know, how do we scale rapidly when you're dealing with a leadership team who are of a vintage, as I said earlier, where digital really is something a little bit strange to them. And we spend so little but still, you know, we can get their enthusiasm but separating them from a significant chunk of money has been difficult. Yeah, sure. So you mentioned 13 years ago and the changes you made. Was there a lot of resistance to that initially or was it pretty smooth and did it take long if there was a lot of resistance for that to disappear? To WordPress? Yeah. Look, it did take a little while to disappear and I think where I was able to really make significant inroads we started off with a couple of little brand sites and I think the brand managers were able to see how quick and easy it was. I was able to work on the front end and design while they were putting the content in. So where I had enthusiastic brand managers who were a little bit digital savvy they really saw the benefit of it. And then I think over the years, I would say Beaver Builder was a big impact. One of the sites I built, in fact the first site I built with it we had a partnership with Glenella's Family Foundation which places Aboriginal youth into corporate environments to get some work experience. And I built the first iteration of their website using Beaver Builder. It was the first site I did. Never having used the tool before, it took me three hours from start to finish. And then I went to our consumer team who had a lot of older sites built on Zen framework. Little brand sites, they weren't particularly sophisticated but they were starting to whine a bit about, okay, it's about time to make these mobile ready. So I just went through and rebuilt all of this. I just copied what they already had. We didn't change the content. But I rebuilt them all onto WordPress using Beaver Builder and I think it got down to about two hours. Two hours I could knock one of these over because I was so familiar with it by then, you know. And they were fairly consistent. But for me Beaver Builder really changed how fast we could operate and that is to us really important. And it might not be the perfect coding solution but it works and I think it's got quite a lot of developer support. There's a lot of add-ons now available for it to our blocks and modules. And I just found it's made my life so much easier. Okay, interesting. Now you mentioned that the marketing material and the sales staff not getting the reps, not getting too many emails. So you do it once a week on the Friday? Yep. I mean was initially a bit of resistance to that because what about if it's Monday and I want the guys to know today or putting it once a week? Yeah, that's what they actually read it. So, yeah, and of course we can tell who's read it and who hasn't. There was a bit of resistance because people would tend to sort of say, oh, it's Friday night, it's my time now. But look at the end of the day, it's one thing you have to do and it's usually not that heavy. It's a five, ten minute read tops. So it's quickly, you know, you go home at the end of the day, have a quick read of that, just make sure you're familiar with everything. Monday morning you're ready to hit the road, you know. Okay, nice, nice. Now you mentioned multi-site before. Yes. Does that mean all your sites are in multi-site or do you have single sites as well? No, in fact the only site that's in multi-site is the Intranet and that is because we do have that consistent user database and we also do syndicate quite a lot of content between the sites and we use some of the WM, PMU, DEV multi-site plugins to do that. All of our corporate sites are standalone, although I sometimes wish they weren't. But I do fear multi-site a little bit. I do fear the whole sort of put your eggs in one basket thing that if it goes down, it takes everything down with it, you know. And it's tough enough dealing with one site failing on you without having every country manager from around the world going, what's going on? You know, you can't get to fix it because you're fielding all the phone calls. So there are benefits to both, but I do tend to fear multi-site a little bit. Okay, yep, fair enough. And so why did you pick Beaver Builder? Look at the time, well, now we've got Elementor, we've got... I'd had a little Divi, I'd had a bit of a play with the early versions of Divi. I didn't really like them. I just found, I don't know what it was, maybe it just engaged well with the way I think. I don't know why particularly. I've played since with Elementor. I think there's quite a few now that are maturing nicely. I just felt that Beaver Builder offered the most robust solution the most. And the other thing that I have a fear of, I've bought plugins from Envato before. And it's the old... I think somebody said this morning, you go on the Envato market, it's $17 or whatever. And you go back to get it again and it's gone. And you can't even download a version that you've already paid for. And I really don't like that. So I, from a corporate perspective, prefer to invest in plugins that might cost a lot more, but I think have perhaps got a more sustainable business and are likely to be around and giving me support in three, four, five years' time. So that's kind of just another way of thinking of it. Sure, sure, makes sense. And what hosting companies do you use and why? So we use WP Engine and we use Flywheel. Right, okay. Are they sponsors here, aren't they? They are, I believe. They might be here somewhere. Have we got anyone here from WP Engine or from what was that other company? Flywheel. Flywheel, Flywheel. What are you, come down, come down. Come on, come down. Platinum and Gold sponsors. So yes, we use Flywheel and we use WP Engine. And there are reasons I use both. One is, again, not putting all the eggs in one basket. We basically put our consumer brands, tend to sit on WP Engine. They tend to be smaller, less complex sites. And WP Engine's great, but you've got to be in that box. You've got to, you know, it's quite strictly controlled, which is great. It means it's not going to fall over on you. We've got some, also some sites that are a little bit more hinky, a little bit more fiddly that we've, you know, got a need to drill through to the database or drill out to another database that don't fall comfortably within that model. And we put those on Flywheel. So we use both, and I have no real preference for one over the other. It's just that some work well on WP Engine, some work well on Flywheel. And I'm happy with both companies. Okay, great, great. So we've got about five minutes left and some questions from the audience. I couldn't help but notice that you said you moved away from WooCommerce partially from the back end while rendering the same templates from WooCommerce. What was the reason? So we basically have, we have a very specific way that our back end works because there's no money involved. We're not selling anything for sale. We just use a sort of shopping cart concept for doctors to be able to order samples of brand reminders, work under brand reminders and involve educational material, bits and pieces. So we sort of, we've got no shipping component. We've got no transactional component. So we had that sort of taken off. We like the way that we can make the shopping cart look nice using the front end of WooCommerce. But that back end we modified so it suits our transactional model, which is that basically a piece of, a starter pack, for example, of a product is assigned to a particular sales team. And then this rep works in this postcode for that sales team. And then the order is split up. So when an individual doctor places an order, the order is split and the relevant sales reps get the parts of the order that are pertinent. But then the doctor can go in and they can look at where their order is and what have you. So that's the reason we do that. We wanted everything, really. So it worked. Hey, Richard, cool talk. And it was great to hear that you build these WordPress sites yourself. I was just wondering what your IT department does. Gets in my way. Spend money, potentially. I used to have, to be fair, I used to have quite a, because I'm very much a sales and marketing person. I'm not an IT person. And usually when I go to talk to another country, the first thing I do is say, I'm not an IT person. I'm a sales and marketing person. And I used to be sort of the shadow IT department a bit, which used to really get up their nose. And they did feel initially that websites should be part of their domain. And just over a period of time, they have come to realize that I'm not actually a threat to what they do. And they actually know nothing at all about Linux or servers. Look, I don't know too much. I'll leave it to these guys. But they know how to do Windows, and that's really it. And so we're actually now at a point where they will come to me and say, before we go off and explore some hugely expensive enterprise solution, do you have any ideas on how we might approach this? And sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't. The example I showed you there with the e-signatures, that plug-in was, I think, $600 for a lifetime license, unlimited use on as many domains as you like. That suits me down to the ground. One of my biggest gripes is when you're working in an enterprise and you use a lot of plug-ins, and we have a lot of plug-ins that we use variously, my credit card looks like it's been hit by a shotgun every month with all these damn subscriptions coming up. And I'd really love, automatic or someone like that, to come up with something along the lines of Invato Market, but more professional, that plug-in developers can put all their subscriptions through and you can get one bill every month or every year for all the plug-ins that you've got. So I don't have to have this shrapnel coming through. It's awful. Great presentation. Thank you, Richard. I used to work for the Pharmaceutical Society, an experience with the IT department, similar to yours, I think. But my question really is in your business-to-business websites, you haven't mentioned pharmacists at all. Do you not deal directly with them? We're not selling anything to pharmacists. So we do have a section of our website for pharmacists and actually for hospital pharmacists as well. But that tends to be more focused at things like stock shortages, those sorts of issues. We did put in place once a nice little self-service tool for pharmacy, where we had... It wasn't even our product, but there was a stock out of some brand from another pharmaceutical company, and we just built this nice little tool that if a pharmacy had more stock than they needed, they could go and register it. And if a pharmacy needed stock, they could go and register their need for it, and we just put them in touch. Very, very simple. So we do have teams selling to pharmacy, talking to pharmacists about our products. But we've moved away a bit from being a generics company. So it's more the generics companies that are out there selling to pharmacists these days. We've got time for just one or two more questions. Hey, Richard, thanks for the talk. It was really interesting. More so because I work for one of your customers. Oh, do you? Yeah. I work in animal health, but we do buy some human drugs, just the nature of the beast. I have a couple of questions about your intranet. Is that hosted on one of the hosts you've mentioned? It is. And what are the challenges and how did you handle SSO? We didn't. Because there's no consistent 80 of us around the world. Had there been, there's a really good plug-in solution from a company called Mini Orange. And we could have used that for South Africa. But what we didn't want to have was like a mixed Cluj solution. So we just said, look, until such time as we can get single sign-on for everybody, we'll just roll our own and run with it. Look, it has caused issues. Because with a lot of the users, they can't quite get it through their heads. Although we've got signing everywhere, this is a different thing. This is not logging into your computer. And still, they say, I've just tried to sign in with the login and password from my PC, and it won't work. So we do get quite a bit of that. And it does cause a bit of support overhead and problems. But by and large, we are kind of getting there. And at the end of the day, I think development costs for that site were about $30,000. We had that built by an agency in South Africa. And now they roll out countries. So we basically can just clone off when we want another country and just restrict access by email address. And that's working really nicely. The users are responsible for their own content. At that level, we have content managers within each business. And to create a clone is about $1,000. So it's very affordable. And it develops a lot less expensive in South Africa, I would say. And even cheaper in Nepal. So we get a lot of our coding done in Nepal where we pay, I think, $15 an hour US. So they build our APIs. They build our custom plug-ins for us. So I think we have time for just one more question, and then we'll wrap things up. Hello. Just back on intranets. In terms of building an intranet on WordPress, how do you deal with the age-old problem of storing corporate documents and collaboration? So the premise of the intranet is that it's a news intranet. So we don't use it for storing highly sensitive documents. And we've made that quite clear with the users. So if it's a highly sensitive document or has a particular workflow around something, then that remains on the local SharePoint service. And then this is used really for disseminating corporate information. Again, because of the speed with which the company grew, it was tremendously difficult for people to feel like they belong to one company. They just see their little bit of the pie and really don't know what's going on in the rest of the world. And that's why we came up with this notion of one aspen online. It was one place that everybody could visit for news and information. And we do put some stuff on there. I mean, it like leave forms and things like that. But we use the old sort of rule of thumb. Is it pub safe? If the document got out, what damage reputation could it do to the business? So we are quite cautious in that regard. So yes, there's still, we do still, we haven't eliminated SharePoint. This is just something additional. The costs of developing something like that on SharePoint are astronomical and then maintaining it. So. Excellent. Thank you, Richard. And it's now 20 to five. So the closing remarks will be in the other room one. But if we can all say thank you to Richard.