 On behalf of Ramakrishna Mission Institute of Culture, I welcome you all to this evening's Achinto Kumar Tapadar Memorial Lecture. As a tradition, before the lecture starts, we read out a small life sketch of Achinto Kumar Tapadar. Accordingly, I read it. Achinto Kumar Tapadar was born in a reputed family in the year 1938 at the Mecha village of Assaransol in the district of Badwan. He had a religious background from both the sides of his father and mother. His father, Yogesh Chando Tapadar, was a musician and his mother, Bholadevi, was a pious lady encouraging her children constantly to realize the ultimate falsity of worldly life that was finally renounced by her children. Since his boyhood, Achinto was quite and intelligent and gentle boy who had his early education at Searsol Raj High School. During his studies in Assaransol College, Achinto had come in contact with Swami Vishuddhanandaji Maharaj who finally initiated him. Maharaj did also inspire him to join the order. His father, Yogesh Chando, could not, however, accept the proposal since Achinto was his only son. After having completed his undergraduate and postgraduate studies under the University of Calcutta, Achinto took up teaching assignment but nothing could put an end to his contact with Belur Mod. He was fortunate enough to come in contact with many distinguished monks of the order including Swami Madhavanandaji, Swami Biresharanandaji, Swami Abhayanandaji, Swami Bhuteshanandaji, Swami Atasanandaji. As a sincere devotee, Achinto worked hard to spread the teachings of the holy trinity among students and young boys and girls at Assaransol where he had been working. Thus, in 1985, Rani Ganj Vivekananda Service Centre was formed. He was associated with the centre throughout his life. He was also a member of the general body of Belur Mod and a managing committee member of the Assaransol Mission Till Death. Monks and Brahmacharians of the order were his Kith and Kin. He and his sisters lawfully donated their inherited and accumulated wealth to the Ramakrishna Mod Belur Mod. Achinto Kumar passed away in 2011 at the age of 71. Today, Achinto Kumar Tapadar Memorial Lecture will be delivered by Dr. Gilio Pesco. He will speak in English on physics and Indian spiritual tradition. Before we start our lecture, first of all I request Amiz Nupur Munshi to come on the stage to say something about the Dr. Pesco, who is the Indian coordinator of this chapter. And then I request Shamul Babu to come over the stage and felicitate our speaker. Thank you. Shamul Babu will come first. First we will felicitate our speaker. So Shamul Babu will hand over a small momento to him. Namoshkar. Good evening and a warm welcome to our distinguished audience members. To an epoch making episode of understanding the relationship between science, spirituality, truth and eternity perhaps here at the Sivananda Hall of the Ram Krishna Mission Institute of Culture, Kolkata, India. It's a beautiful bonding that I have set up with RMIC and to have been bestowed upon the blessing to stand on this pedestal under the divine presence of Swami Vivekananda. It's perhaps a supreme achievement in India and I am deeply, deeply grateful and thankful to Srimad Shami Shupannanandaji Maharaj, revered secretary, Ram Krishna Mission Institute of Culture for your blessing. My heartfelt gratitude to Srimad Shami Progatmanandaji Maharaj, the center for indelogical studies and research and the cultural activities department here at the RMIC and the whole of the Ram Krishna Mission for your support and inspiration for me to learn and work. To some of us, this is a beginning of a learning journey. Our aspiration would be to understand and then to communicate how the insights of Indian spiritual tradition can be made compatible and mutually reinforcing with those of modern physics. Revered Shami Shupannanandaji Maharaj once said to me that the universe around is manifestation of God. So you serve this universe very lovingly by selfless service outwardly through science and inwardly through meditation and explained the need of convergence of science and spirituality as a need for attainment of fulfillment in a way of blending the external and the internal. We are really happy and honored to have Dr. Jalio Prisco, founder Turing Church, a theoretical physicist, former systems engineer at the European Space Centers. And I am honored to also announce that our global community Turing Church have set up India Awakens from India and we are looking forward to be working in India with the blessings and guidance of Ram Krishna Mission to continue our journey. We want to fondly remember our dear sister, late Mrs. Rumjhum Munshi Pandit as our inspiration or maybe our sister is here with us today. Never was there a time when I did not exist nor you nor all the skings nor in the future shall any of us cease to be, says the sacred Geeta. In future of artificial super intelligences science may uncover more and more the mysteries of the mind and the universe and may find for us our sister Rumjhum or all our loved ones we lost from the fabric of fundamental reality. Dr. Prisco believes that a cosmic divine mind embedded in the fabric of fundamental reality itself and of which individual minds are but pale reflections could shape the becoming of space, time, particles, fields, matter, energy, life forms. The mind could remember the memory of the universe. Almost like what Tagore says chokher dekhah praner kothah shei ki bholah jai abar dekhah judi holushakha praner majhe ae and nothing is complete without Tagore and Bengal another small line at the immortal touch of of thy hands my little heart loses its limits enjoy and gives birth to utterance ineffable. Thank you. Dr. Gilo Prisco. Thank you very much Nupur for your beautiful introduction. I'd like also to thank all the organizers at the Klamakrishna Mission Institute of Culture. It's really a honor for me to be here and last but not least I'd like to thank you all for taking the time to come and listen to me. I'm not expected to talk about physics and the Indian spiritual tradition but I have to say that I don't know and don't understand Indian spiritual tradition that much. I'm basically here to learn and I will mention a lot of things in the relatively short time that I had that means that of course I won't have the time to go into much detail. At the same time well you can read all that on my website which is here which is touringchurch.net My name is Giulio Prisco and you have also my email address here and I would be delighted and honored if you write to me with whatever service, questions or comments that you may wish to bring to the table. Looking forward to being in touch with you all I should explain what that strange symbol means but that will come later. And as Nupur explained this talk is dedicated to the memory I hope I pronounced that well. I will mention some things that concerned all of us life and death issues like what happened when we disappeared where, when, who, what do we become and as I formulate these questions and try to formulate tentative answers I'll have roomjum in mind. Where is roomjum? When is roomjum? Who? Or what? I'm going to move that one. Thank you very much. We have different concepts of divinity in western and eastern traditions. I'm going to oversimplify very much of course but I can say that in most western religions especially Christianity God is personal. We in the west tend to have a personal concept of God but as I understand in the eastern tradition God is more perhaps diffuse is the correct word a God that is entangled and entwined with the physical universe without necessarily having any personal attributes that our own consciousness can relate to and the same applies to our concepts of self and afterlife. We have different ideas and different concepts of afterlife in eastern and western spiritual traditions reincarnation, resurrection, nirvana different things and again oversimplifying I will say that we in the west are very much emotionally attached to the idea of self. We are not happy thinking that after death we will just emerge into the universe at large but we want to think that something of our own personality and individuality will persist after death. So we want to be here. Before moving on to other things I want to mention that also in western philosophy recently we are starting to become more and more close to some concepts that we know from eastern traditions. For example we have a theoretical framework called open individualism which has been described by Daniel Kolak an American philosopher in a book named I Am You and the central thesis of the book is that we are all the same person which I believe is a concept that many people from eastern spiritual traditions can relate to. We are all the same person that makes scientific sense I believe and I like to call this open individualism a minimalist theory of reincarnation because it doesn't make many assumptions on the nature of either human consciousness or the universe at large and gives an essentially acceptable in a psychological sense of the biggest questions that we ask ourselves how can we think to persist in the afterlife? We persist in the afterlife because everyone is the same. The mental metaphor that I like to use to think of these concepts is to think of windows open on the world Here we see that there are many windows and the point of view from this what can I point? The point of view from this window is not exactly the same from here there are differences here I see something slightly different here I see something slightly different that reflects the difference between different persons I am me and you are you we are different persons but what we have in common we are all alive on the planet earth in year 2018 and this thing that we have in common is perhaps more important the things that separate us so we have many windows that show different things but we can think that there is one person looking from behind the windows so what happens if what we see here disappears for example if we pull the curtain and make this specific point of view disappear what happens you could say nothing really too unpleasant happens because I still have this point of view and I still have this point of view so from the perspective of the one mind who is looking simultaneously at all the windows it's not really that much of a deal if the content of one window disappears because we still have all the others this I believe is a nice metaphor to think of this minimalist idea of resurrection ok now let's move on to physics which is advancing spectacularly indeed and to illustrate this concept I have chosen a book that was written almost 90 years ago a book called Mysterious Universe published in 1930 the author mentioned the spectacular revolution that happened in physics in the first 30 years of last century with the development of Einstein's general relativity and the beginning of quantum physics today we could add a couple more things for example the development of quantum field theory and the standard model developments in condensed matter physics but one thing seems equally valid today as 90 years ago when James James pointed out that physics is not yet in contact with ultimate reality I think we can still say that and I'm not going to tell you what ultimate reality is I don't know that of course but I'm going to give you some example and some intriguing concepts that can show how we are still far from having an idea of what ultimate reality is and perhaps ultimate reality is nothing that we could imagine at this very moment we have engineering and we have technology which is also advancing exponentially every day we read in the news of some new technology development and some technology development is becoming really like science fiction we can do now things that would have been considered science fiction from one generation before us this is a magic machine and everyone has one in their pocket with this little machine in my pocket I can do things that my grandfather would have considered as a magic my grandfather would have had other words for it but magic appreciation and enthusiasm for what technology has done and what technology will probably continue to do is described in the literature of a philosophical movement called transhumanism I don't really have the time to define the terms that I'm going to use just Google things for example this transhumanism philosophy is outlined in an anthology called the transhumanist reader I very much recommend reading it I very much recommend reading all the books that I'm mentioning here transhumanists think that there is no a priori limit that can be placed on the development of technology and science and using technology future generation will be able to make the world a magic place just like our world would have been considered as a magic place from the people of a couple of generations before so science is advancing and technology is advancing we will come back to the interation between science and technology I want to mention a new camera in scientific theology which is called the simulation hypothesis is the idea that some of you may be familiar with in its naive formulation that basically says that our world and our reality is a video game which is being run on some kind of hypercomputers in a higher dimension or something like that there are much less naive ways to formulate the concept and I'm going to come back to this later I want to mention the fact that Elon Musk, the guy the very famous technology entrepreneur who last week sent his video to another space I'm sure many of you have watched the launch of Falcon Heavy so Elon Musk who is a star technologist and one of the best known people in the technology world once said that he very much believes in the simulation hypothesis and I mean we just have to google that basically he said that the number of possible simulated realities is much bigger than the number of possible physical realities and therefore the probability that we live in a simulated reality is much higher I don't really buy that argument but you know when somebody like Elon Musk says something at least he deserves being listened to the point that I want to stress here is that the simulation hypothesis is completely equivalent to a western religion in particular it is completely equivalent to Christianity similar, not a little bit like not very much like no, it's exactly the same thing as Christianity we have creators who have created a universe and can run the universe according to their intentions they can if they want violate the physical laws of their simulated universe which has not necessarily the same laws of their home universe but they could do whatever they want acting in our reality which from their point of view is a computation and in particular they could grant everyone an afterlife according to any framework they can think of so we have a creator who is presumably only science only present and only potent and this is the simplest formulation of the western religion of Christianity we can think of simulation theology my message here is that this family of speculative theologies is exactly equivalent to Christianity and very similar to other religions now let's make an example of what I mean by simulation simulation, computation we are all familiar with video games in which we can create realities but let's consider something simple let's consider a simple cellular automata like the well known game of life invented by British mathematician John Conway here we have some very simple rules of evolution which says step into one cell for example we have a white cell here at the next time step the cell can stay white or can become a black this is a simple universe of black and white cells and there is a very simple mathematical way to compute the future from the past in fact this is the symbol that I had on my very first view graph which is a life pattern that evolves in time a growing to infinity is an infinite growth pattern it starts chaotic anyway it starts moving and leaves behind a wake that could be seen as a DNA shaped helix I like very much this symbol because it has all the things that it has really all the things that I'm discussing and that's also the evolution of biological life we can have a very simple simulated physics able to generate something that looks like life and in fact John Conway himself thought that given a life mathematical space which is big enough it is perfectly plausible to think that intelligent life could evolve in these simulated universe eventually intelligent species might evolve from the same sort of selected pressures that operated on Earth modern science of cellular automata has been developed by many mathematicians most notably Stephen Wolfram has written a very thick book the book is literally that thick about 15 years ago called a new kind of science but he thinks that cellular automata could be a model for how fundamental physics works in the sense that the machinery behind space, time and the structure, the fabric or reality could be something that looks like a cellular automata or a more sophisticated version perhaps based on graph and networks here two people that I mentioned here American mathematician Ralph Abraham and Indian physicist Shishir Roy have frequently visited the Ramakrishnan Institute and they have written a book a few years ago called Dennis Defying the Akash where they elaborate on a concept similar to Wolfram's idea to look for a discrete cellular automata-like model behind the scenes of everyday reality as we know what's interesting here is that the model seems to live enough room for the concept of a permanent memory of the universe some information store where all the information that has ever been produced in the universe continues to be stored and it in the concept that you teach me that has been called Akashic records in ancient traditions so physics is beginning somehow to move toward that this is one of the main concepts that I'm mentioning tonight physics is beginning to move toward the different forms of ancient wisdom for example quantum physics we have known of quantum physics for almost 120 years now quantum physics is still mysterious and Nobel Prize winner Richard Feynman says once that if you don't think that quantum physics is mysterious that means you don't understand it for example is something a particle or a wave quantum particles sometimes appear as particles sometimes they appear as waves waves in ways that no one is able to understand intuitively how can something be both a square and a circle well as matter of fact something can be both a square and a circle because a three dimensional object meaning something more complex than what can be captured in two dimensional geometry can have both a square and a circular projection and this is a good metaphor to think of quantum physics too I mean it's not a particle it's not a wave it's something else but it's something that our two dimensional imagination is not able to visualize and this is a way to make sense of the fact that quantum physics is mysterious it is mysterious because we are not meant to think in these terms one of the most frequently mentioned mysteries of quantum physics is entanglement that is that phenomenon which creates instant correlation between things separated far away instant correlation that seems to propagate faster than light even though it can be demonstrated that it is impossible to exploit entangled correlation to actually exchange information so causality and relativity is still safe but the correlations are still there and they have been found not only theoretical but also experimentally in many labs around the world there is a metaphor that helps us think of entangled correlation this is an example due to physicist David Bohm one of the founding fathers of the second wave of quantum physics development so there is a magic fish a magic couple of fishes and what is magic is that when the first fish does something the second fish does the same thing can be turning right or turning left the two fishes are correlated and this correlation is independent of the distance and seems to actuate faster than light this seems very mysterious but as a matter of fact this whole setup is not mysterious because the two fishes that we thought of initially as different fishes are actually two images of the same fish we had just one fish two video cameras looking at both and showing the fish on two different screens from two different points of view so if this one turns left one will also turn left because they are one and the same fish and this is a useful way to think of some situations that we encounter in quantum physics and I'm sure many of you people must have heard about many words like interpretations of quantum physics quantum physics does not really decide exactly what will happen in a given physical situation it only offers probabilities, not definite outcomes we can think that many different realities coexist like different sheets of paper each with a different history written on it and the universe could be a multiverse with many different realities existing in parallel or it could be one single universe, one single sheet of paper but in this case then we would have to have an idea of how the decision is made and who makes that decision and here let me quote another founding father by this time of the first wave of quantum physics Erwin Schrödinger who said that the choice is made by mind but at this point the question becomes whose mind, my mind, your mind it can't be and in fact the choice is made by the one mind which our individual minds have reflections I don't have too much space so I only mentioned Schrödinger here but as a matter of fact a lot of the founders of quantum physics said exactly this and it boils down to a concept that I believe is a common place in Indian spiritual traditions that at man the personal self and Brahman, the omnipresent all comprehending eternal self are essentially the same thing and I only mentioned Schrödinger for short but a lot of scientists are saying that more and more ok let's come to one of the newest family of scientific theories that is developing very fast is the theory of condensed matter systems like superfluid and superconductors, exotic matter which can be considered as a quantum matter because these are systems where long range coherent quantum effects become important and you can think that all the constituents of quantum matter know what all the rest of the material is doing by entanglement look at this picture you see some small things like arrows and the organized behavior of these small things gives rise to big things matter of fact nobody, not everyone has glasses but now I can see the small things if I take my glasses out I can only see the big things which makes us think that perhaps what we see and what our scientific instruments see the big things are something that emerges from the organized behavior of something smaller and there are theories that that's exactly how our brain works the process of a memory and consciousness formation in the brain is a result of quantum behavior intrinsically quantum behavior of the matter that constitutes the brain so the brain can be considered as a form of quantum matter there are some physical theories which seem to say that space time itself could be considered as quantum matter as a matter of fact the concept is not as strange as it could seem but for decades there are some very strong similarities and analogies between condensed matter physics and fundamental physics in the vacuum a very highly recommended book called the universe in a helium droplets makes a very convincing case the physics that we see could be nothing but the behavior of a micro physical world that we don't see yet these unknown micro physics of the quantum vacuum could make empty space time itself behave as a quantum matter now look at this picture we see ghosts and we see small things here the idea is that this the ghost world is our world what we see at these ghost-like formations particles and fields the gravitational field itself emerges from an under-like substrate for micro physics that we do not perceive at this moment so the fabric of space-time, empty space-time itself could behave like quantum matter which means that we have if all these ideas are correct we have similar physics in the brain and in the vacuum and we could have mind-like processes in the quantum vacuum itself I'm not going to focus on this point just let me mention the fact that the chain doesn't have to end here we can have one level of reality another level of reality we can have all new forms of matter all the way down but let's come back to the point if the same physics happen in the vacuum as it happens in the brain then we could have intelligence in the fabric of space-time itself and this intelligence could become super-intelligence very fast all these things quantum fields and particle physics is much faster than biology so it is plausible to think that evolution could take place much faster in this realm and lead to the emergence of a god-like mind in the very structure of space-time itself which our mind is a part our small mind is a part of the big mind encoded in the structure of reality and that gives a plausible answer to the question of what happens after that after that our mind leaks a back into the big mind of which it really always was a part and this seems like a logically very sound solution to the question of what comes after that only that as I said at the beginning for us in the West it doesn't sound that good I don't want to think that I will continue to live as a part of a super mind I'd like to think that I will continue to live as myself and perhaps also many of you feel the same way there is this concept of an abstract impersonal god encoded in the fabric of space-time here there is a local very famous scientist he wrote a very good book where he basically describes the same idea that I just described of an impersonal mind encoded in space-time well of course he wrote it much better that I could ever hope to do but this is still an impersonal god something abstract, something difficult something abstract, something diffuse is not a god that we can relate to emotionally but perhaps the cosmic god can learn from life this is a concept that is explained very well is one of the master pieces of science fiction literature either is Star Maker I cannot give you a synopsis of the book in a couple of minutes but what happens at the end of the book is that a god starts learning from his creations and becomes also a personal god now I want to make an analogy here and I hope my analogy is not too disrespectful the main analogy is that perhaps the relation between god and man is the same kind of relation that we have without dogs a dog is not at home in the city environment with cars things for which a dog is not prepared but takes care of dogs I'm much more complicated than my dogs they won't understand anything of what I'm saying now for example they don't understand my word but having had dogs for a long time I have learned how to make myself understood from dogs so even if they cannot rise to my level I know how to descend to their levels and make myself understood to them I can understand my dog within some limits and my dog understands me within some limits so if the god of the cosmos becomes a personal god and if he loves us then perhaps a personal loving and caring dog could provide a personal afterlife just think that god can have a little door for a dog to go out and this little dog is you and I now I think I have talked too much of science and forgot engineering which is also one of the main topics of this talk and one of the symbol of western technology is Nicola Tesla who said that the day science begins to study non-physical phenomena it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of course I have to qualify one of Tesla's statements non-physical phenomena does not mean phenomena that cannot be studied by physics it means phenomena that cannot be studied by physics as we know physics today the idea is that physics will permit understanding more and more of the world including those aspects of the world that we can only call non-physical today I think this quest for Akashic engineering how I called it engineering to I don't want to say I invade to use engineering to become closer to fundamental reality is I believe an ideal fusion of eastern and western thinking and perhaps our condensed matter engineers will be able to build real words into new forms of quantum matter which is something that is very much discussed in a Mormon theology there is this contemporary Mormon scholar who said that the end point of engineering knowledge may be diving knowledge we will learn how to understand God and within limits we will learn how to act like a God through science and technology in Mormon theology I mean there is a difference between God and man but that difference is not as huge as in other theologies basically in Mormonism God was once like man is today and conversely man could become like God Mormonism is not well known even in even in Europe and even in most of the United States as matter of fact most Mormons live in Utah around Salt Lake City now let me show you that I arrived in Kolkata two days ago and I noticed that there is a part of Kolkata that is called Salt Lake City I believe and I was like whoa that I've been to Salt Lake City many times speak at conferences organized by the Mormon Transhumanist Association that's the first serendipity that I want to mention another interesting data point is that my good friend my good friend Lincoln Cannon who is one of the founders of this Mormon Transhumanist Association once said that if he wasn't a Mormon he would be a Hinduist and he he says that he still thinks that because he can see many fundamental parallels between Mormonism and Hinduism is interesting to think and speculate about that I think I'm coming to the end and I only have five minutes left so I want to rush a bit but there is this very intriguing philosophy that was developed between the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century by a group of thinkers known as Russian Cosmists one of the best known is Nikolai Fedorov but even better known is his student Konstantin Tsiolkovsky known as the father of modern astronautics in Russia and in the rest of the world as well the Russian Cosmists can be seen as Christian Transhumanists and the main themes in the Cosmist thought include the active human role in human and cosmic evolution the creation of new life forms and the physical resurrection of the dead so seeing resurrection as a scientific objective that could be achieved through engineering is the big gifts that the Russian Cosmists have done to humanity and I think that they were a real precursor to today transhumanist movement but much more than that as an actor of fact the Cosmists were much more radical and visionary than today's transhumanists so putting all together the idea is that through science and technology we will gain access to deeper reality a breaking out from the sphere of reality in which we have been confined so far and gaining access to another part of reality that we do not perceive right now but that we will perceive in the future and within this a deeper reality there will be the answers to the big questions that we ask ourselves today including the question where is Runzion? The idea is that using science and technology we will become cosmic engineers in God's control room transform the universe and resurrect the dead and I think we are finished exactly on time I would like to thank you very much and remind you that my website and my emails are written here I will be very happy to receive comments and questions from everyone but perhaps we do have a little bit of time for questions now in which case I will be delighted to do my best to answer thank you very much thank you very much for this thought stimulating talk now it's open for questions and interactions for the next few minutes so if you have any questions please raise your hand we will try to pass on the microphone to you so that your question is heard by everybody yes please Thank you for your talk Dr. Prisco now you have said that Nicola Tesla has talked about non-physical aspects by non-physical does he mean metaphysical this is my first question and yes I don't know what he meant but I have offered my own interpretation of what he meant and knowing what I know about Nicola Tesla I think my interpretation is correct by non-physical he just meant things that physics doesn't understand today but I believe as most scientists he did not place an arbitrary limit on what science cannot understand and I guess he thought that if science doesn't understand something today then perhaps science will understand it tomorrow I think second question is what is the correlation between mind and energy of course you understand that I cannot answer your question because I don't know is still working problems is what scientists are trying to understand one thing that can be said one thing that should be said is that many experts used to think that mind was just a simple mechanical byproduct of a matter that follows the deterministic laws which are basically those of Newtonian physics but today's scientists are beginning to understand that things are not probably that simple and that a mind may not be only a byproduct of matter but there could be feedback loops between mind and matter that make the old things non-linear and not explainable by a simple Newtonian model so again is work in progress that we haven't completed yet but the answer promises to be very interesting welcome to you see as per Indian tradition we have got the idea of super mind now as you have seen that God's control I am sorry I had this call could you just say it again we have got a tradition of super mind super mind which is beyond mind that will come in due course of evolution which has not yet come now you were saying that God's control room where some engineering process will take place what is exactly the engineering process and what will be that what type of mind will control that process that I would like to know whether that is of that nature of super mind it would have to be something much more advanced than our own mind now of course and for this reason is very difficult for us to imagine how a mind evolved than ours work just like for a dog going back to my analogy is difficult to understand our mind the reality is that the best what we think and what we do and why we do the things that we do would not be understandable to a dog that's it we will evolve very gradually or perhaps very fast toward a super mind but we cannot understand yet what it is like to be a super mind we will have to get there first and then we will understand Doctor please go I have studied Mormonism a bit but I didn't quite get the relationship we tried to establish between Mormonism and the Indian religious philosophy can you explain a bit further please I can only repeat to you the explanation that Lincoln cannot give to me when I asked him exactly the same question I also didn't see many many parallels but first you teach me that Hinduism is a polytheistic religion you have a concept of one god but we also have concepts of many more gods we have both one big god and many little dogs I have said very stupid things but I believe you all understand what I mean and in Mormonism there is exactly the same concept which is besides the god with uppercase G of religion there can be evolved, super evolved and exalted beings which are halfway between gods and the degree of god head can change in time in the process of evolution of the mind so something and perhaps humanity itself can become like god and take a place in this hierarchy of gods that exist in the universe I think in that just a second this is not a question but an observation Bushman says that engineers are trying to create humans who would be able to act like god but in molecular genetics and also in molecular biology there are lots of genes who have expressions and these gene expressions cannot be changed by the scientists it is not for them yet there are lots of things in the biotic world which cannot be changed or influenced by humans so far and I don't know maybe it will continue like this for next hundred years also well maybe but I think you said yourself the key word and the key word is yet you just did the key word is yet as you said yourself we cannot yet do many things but that doesn't mean that we won't be able to do all these things tomorrow yes I do thank all of you for coming here and the speaker particularly for this very thought provoking talk and so we should give him another big clap thank you very much to you all