 Hello. Welcome, everybody. I love the library on a rainy day, so you are right where you're supposed to be. And thank you all for being here and we are here to see Pindar Vazharsha, Brandon Tazeek in combo with Nigel Poor and Erlon Woods, our 17th one city one book authors. The San Francisco, yeah. You are here right. Let's welcome our zoom viewers and YouTube viewers as well. The San Francisco Public Library would like to acknowledge that we occupy the unseated ancestral homeland of the raw mutish alone peoples, who are the original inhabitants of the San Francisco Peninsula. We recognize that we benefit from living and working on their traditional home space. And as uninvited guests we affirm their sovereign rights as first peoples and wish to pay our respects to the ancestors, elders and relatives of the raw mutish community. I encourage you all to check out Sigourte Land Trust, an Oakland women led group working in the land back movement. Also check out our website for an immense amount of reading lists on first person culture. So, this is part of our one city one book and if you haven't seen all the advertising or the books. It's out there, pick up one of these on your way out. It has the rest of the remaining programs for December in it. And we still have a packed house, full of events, full of amazing people doing amazing work. So both in person and virtual. I'm just going to tell you about two events but we have way more. So please pick it up. Tomorrow, same place. An hour earlier 1pm. We'll be looking at a film celebrating the life of Ronnie Goodman, who is an artist we love so much here and who loved us, formerly and formerly unhoused and has left this realm. And it's called He Had Wings. So come check that out tomorrow, 1pm. Next Sunday, December 11, the amazing Sarah Cruzan in conversation with her co-author, Corey Thomas, talking about Cruzan's book, I Cried to Dream Again. Cruzan's story as a sexual survivor of childhood abuse and sex trafficking. It's honest to disturbing and ultimately empowering story of her journey from abuse to incarceration without parole for killing your abuser and finally gaining liberation. Cruzan is also featured on your hustles podcast episode 13 called dirty water. The book is amazing. Please come to the event. I want to see a nice full house for Sarah. We are doing Q&A today. If you did not pick up your card to do the Q&A, that is how we're operating will be you can wave your card at me or Alejandro or any one of the staff and we'll grab your card and ask your question. Maybe. Please join us after this event upstairs on the fifth floor. We'll have a reception and there's a gallery exhibit of Brandon's photography and Penn's words. So please come and check that out. We'll have some refreshments and empanadas, fifth floor, 330. All right. So this event today was really a dream ask for me and I didn't anticipate anybody saying yes. So I love that when that happens. And then it grew into so much more. So I'm very excited for this to happen. Of course we have today, Pindarvis Harsha and Brandon Tazeek in conversation with Nigel Ford, Erlon Woods discussing facing life. A project chronicling the experiences of eight individuals living through reentry and serving life prison sentences in California. The visuals are Brandon Tazeek and the words by Pindarvis Harsha. And then of course afterwards come upstairs. Pindarvis Harsha, as you might know from right now ish is a renowned journalist and educator based in Sacramento and Oakland. He has taught journalism to high school students as well as incarcerated men. He's a staff writer and podcast producer at KQD as well as a graduate of UC Berkeley School of Journalism. His first book, OG told me is a memoir style collection of essays about his coming of age experience as a black man in America. Brandon Tazeek is a documentary photographer and filmmaker based in Los Angeles and Oakland. His long term projects examine elements of American societal periphery. His most recent works have incorporated the largely unexplored medium of cinema graphs, a delicate hybrid between the still image and film. They are beautiful so please check out Facing Life website. Nigel Pore is a visual artist and photography professor at CSU Sacramento. Her work has exhibited nationally and internationally, including the SF MoMA and the De Young. Pore got involved with San Quentin State Prison as a volunteer teacher for the Prison University Project. Prison University Project will be here in February so stay tuned for that. In November 2018, Erlon Woods 31 years to life sentence was commuted after 21 years of incarceration. While incarcerated, he received his GED attended coastline community college and completed many vocational programs. He also founded choose one, which aims to repeal the California three strikes law, the statue under which he was sentenced. His efforts would choose one continue as he advocates for restorative justice and works to place the repeal initiative on the ballot. And of course together, they make up the Pulitzer Prize nominated co creators co host and co producers of your hustle. And this year's one city, one book authors. So please join us, join us in a big round of applause for today's panel. Thank you everybody. What up, though. Oh, check, check. Check one check, check, check. Sorry, we had to make sure we had water. We're on. Okay. Okay, I have my phone here not because I'm rude but because I have to keep a check on time. So don't judge. Okay. So everybody welcome where you are so excited to be here today to highlight and to celebrate Brandon and Pandaris is beautiful project facing life. We're going to talk about how they met. We're going to talk about the nature of collaboration, the aesthetics of the project, some difficult questions about prison reform. We're going to bring up a special guest. We're going to give you an opportunity to ask questions and then at the end of the event we're all going to go up and see some beautiful photographs together where we can have a more casual conversation. Yeah, up on the bridge. Yes, and we'll remind you when this is over. All right. So again, welcome everyone. I'm good. Do you want some water. Thank you. Thank you. So that was only a corner. But first, we're going to start this off by watching a video from Pandaris and Brandon that puts this project in perspective. Two minutes video please. And my name is Brandon Tausser. We're the duo behind the multimedia documentary project facing life in it we profile a people who've all spent significant amounts of time incarcerated in California prisons. All of them but one or former lifers. After California was federally mandated to depopulate its overcrowded prison system in 2006, a number of laws were passed that changed the way that people are sentenced in the state. In turn, thousands of people serving long term sentences were released, leaving the question to be asked, who's there to assist their successful reentry lifers as this population of people is often referred to have a recidivism rate of around 1%. So the issue is not their return to prison. But when it comes to people who served 30 to 40 years behind bars, integrating back into our fast paced modern society, compared to be very difficult. So we chose eight individuals, five men and three women. And for the past three years, we've charted their movements. We took note of their housing, employment, health, family and more. We interviewed them multiple times, often in their homes. The goal was to get an understanding of what it's like for them on a daily basis. Over the course of the project, we produced cinemagraphs, 360 VR, video and written content. All of it lives on our website, www.facing.life. This project, backed by the Pulitzer Center, will add to the ongoing conversation about incarceration in the United States, from disparities in sentencing to conditions within the prisons, to what people are dealing with once they're out. As you'll see in this project, this isn't just a story that impacts a small segment of the population, but in a country with the highest number of incarcerated people in the world, and in a state that leads all others in life sentencing. This impacts us all. The goal of this project is to give stakeholders and elected officials some insight into what's at stake. And at the same time, make sure that everyday people, potential employers, educators, folks who work in the public service positions, look at people who are incarcerated as people, not as formerly incarcerated. We'd like to thank our participants, Jose, Lynn, Traviel, Gary, Faheen, Robin, Melvin and Myra, as well as the countless organizations that helped us along the way. The full project is available to experience now at www.facing.life. Thank you. Peace. It's a great introduction to the project. Thank you. Thanks for letting us show that. Before we start the questions, I just want to again say it's so, isn't it nice to see so many people here. Yes, thanks for coming. It's really great. Thank you for being here. People we know and people we don't know. So thank you all for coming out on a rainy Saturday. It's wonderful. Okay, so can we start with just, can you tell us how you met and why you decided to work together? Like what drew you to each other? I think it's one of those things where in the arts community and really, I mean any community, you know, you have those friends where you can't really date back where you met them. So I don't know, they just popped up in your life. I just happened to be here. We've known each other for some time. I think we knew of each other's work at first. I'm a big fan of Brandon's photography work. And when the opportunity came up, the Pulitzer Center is open the doors for reporting on domestic stories about jails, prisons, mass incarceration. Brandon approached me knowing that I'm interested in stories about prison. I'd worked in the San Quentin, in San Quentin with the San Quentin News. I'd worked with California Medical Facility. And Brandon said, hey, that work you're doing in prisons, why don't we do something else about it? And I knew about what the state of California was doing to depopulate its overcrowded prisons. And I said, hey, there's a story here. And knowing what Brandon does with his photography, we wanted to pull that into this story. And, you know, not having the, we had the grant from the Pulitzer Center, but we didn't have a publication, you know, it's an independent project. So getting inside facilities or prisons would have been very difficult without that. So that's why we kind of pivoted toward reentry. Yeah, yeah. And I know you kind of just answered that but Brandon, what does PN bring to this project that you don't and vice versa? Yeah, I mean, this was a real treat. A lot of my longer term projects have been just by myself in the past. And then with a subject matter like this, I did not feel comfortable doing it alone or doing the reporting just because I don't know enough about, you know, mass incarceration and there's so many complexities and when making personal work or documentary work, you know, I take that, that responsibility seriously so I didn't want to kind of like misrepresent anything in that scenario. So our working dynamic was beautiful for the first time for me working with someone else not alone. So kind of having that division of labor between the reporting and the storytelling and the visuals was great. This guy is a crazy metabolism. He just doesn't stop. And so having somebody like that an accountability partner, right? Like having a teammate to work on a project, we conceived this idea back in 2018. Life has changed for all of us since then, but to have somebody to constantly check in with and say, hey, what's going on with that draft of that essay, it definitely helped to push me over. So I did the writing, he did the photography, but we all we all shared responsibilities. I got a question. What's happening? Man, did y'all call me? Yes, I told you. I could I could not find an email. I was like, I think they got at me. I think they reached out to me. Yeah, you weren't out. We started in 2018. No, I was I got out 2018. But I could have sworn Pandavas that got at me about this project from knowing about your work through San Quentin, right? So I just started reaching out to all of the people who I knew through the San Quentin news to say, Hey, I'm doing this project. Because even though I had a foot in that work, I needed to learn a lot more. There's a lot of terminology and just, just things I just needed to know. And so, yes, you're on the list. But did he ever get back to you? We're here now. Okay, that's what matters. We're here now. That's my partner. To that point though, to that point, Erlon is a as a special case, obviously he came out as a, you know, bonafide celebrity. We wanted really middle road people. This is going to be really interesting to talk about. We definitely want to talk about that because re entries. I'm going to jump the gun but very different for different people. And so let's remember to come back to that topic. I just want to say it's not easy to find a good working partner and when you do find someone you get along with you just emotionally and then artistically it's really magic. So, I mean, I feel blessed that we found each other to work with do you have that feeling Definitely. Yeah, I mean it's very similar kind of dynamic, you know, pairing up and division of labor with what you guys do with the podcast. Yeah, we did on the project but yeah I mean it was years of work on and off through the pandemic and then you know for since the project came out this spring we've been touring it all over the country and knock on wood we still have not gotten in a single fight, which is pretty crazy. And we are a counterbalance I'm very laid back. Well, I noticed he was here early and he lost in just a few minutes before we're back exactly we're counterbalance and explicitly speaking like white guy black guy. You know that kind of thing but realizing that I've gone to college twice and so I have those conversations with the judges that we met with the judge that we met with Brandon has spent a night in jail. And so he has that conversation with folks and so it's not the connections that we would thought we would make. Yeah, yeah. Okay, I want to talk a little bit about the aesthetics of the project. You mentioned the Senate synographs is that gifts. I mean I would rather say gifts but they're technically they're not gifts and cinema graphs. Like a photograph but with cinema. Yeah, they're really beautiful. You can notice that they're very subtle moving you can almost miss it if you don't look carefully. And that idea that you could miss the movement makes me think about the project that you're doing both in the photographs, and in the interviews that if you're not attuned to little details you miss so much in storytelling. So just as a metaphor I think those synographs are really beautiful for your project. And so in the project there's all different kinds of media. So there's the synographs. They're the videos they're the 360s and there there's also the writing. And so I'm just curious about those choices are there are there times when it's still image just fails. And so you felt like you had to find a different way to think about the visual presentation and we'll get to the writing part, but I'm really curious about why no still images. Yeah, I mean I love photography, I work with photography, and I also work in filmmaking and with film so I've made projects that are only made comprised of still images and I've made, you know, documentary films. But around the time that Penn and I met actually he was publishing a project that lived on Tumblr, when you know Tumblr had its first way back in like 2012. Called OG told me and I was really falling in love with gifts for the first time that were really exploding on that platform on Tumblr, and we're, you know, it being kind of a hybrid medium between stills and video. I would didn't see anyone making working with it like in the documentary editorial space so a project that I made back then which caught Penn's eyes tapered thrown was the first time that I worked with it and I wasn't sure like if that project if it would work maybe it would be corny maybe it would be cheesy maybe no one would like it but I really enjoyed working with it as kind of like a photo plus or like just a hybrid medium between the two that can, you know, convey more than a still photograph can because you know I enjoy working with the tools at our disposal. Although I love photo books, like that's not, we're not consuming our media on the printed page anymore really. It's on screen so it's like using the tools that we have at our disposal. We look at the 360. This has audio if you go on the website but we're going to play it silent. Yeah, I mean the goal of the project was was immersion. You know, Penn and I could have made a film, but we wanted to create this this digital story that lives for free online forever for anyone. You can, you know, you can scroll through it in a couple minutes if you're in a rush or you can sit with it for 45 minutes and and really go deep and you know. And we, you know, we've had. Part of our audience goal was currently and formerly incarcerated people. And with as far as currently incarcerated, I think in the spring I don't know if Jesse's here but I think we're going to get in the banquet and use so that'll go inside, but we've also had both Penn and I when the project came out. We had some DMs on Instagram and stuff from people on their prison phones that were passing it around and and viewing it inside so that was really cool. Interesting. Okay, I just want to push you a little bit more on this so the 360s. They're not chaotic but there's so much going on in them right you're really moving around the space very quickly. And then the synographs it's so subtle. So can you just talk about that different impulse between this, having that subtle visual and the more. It's not speeded up but I mean some people might even feel a little bit vertigo when they see the 360. Well that that Gary one particularly mostly you know that was the camera was mounted on a shopping cart we were going all over the place but much, you know with Jose it's just like him at a family barbecue, making tacos with Myra it's her at her church praying with her pastor. It's just a way to kind of give the viewer authorship, which is what I really like about 360. So like you, you navigate around the scene you look at what you want to look at versus you know, read my text or look at this picture that I framed you know, well the synographs it's interesting you talk about viewer authorship, because I don't know if anyone in the audience feel felt this way when you first saw them. Did you trust your eye that something was actually happening. Because we're so used to seeing still photographs and we accept the truth of a still photograph and we're not so used to seeing this subtle movement. So it has a nice way of bringing the viewer in and having them question what they're seeing, and then have a recognition. And I think that really helps you connect with the subject of the photograph and then think about like why for example is the choice to have the dog's tail move or what is what is the little detail that the photographers decided to give motion to. So it's conceptually I think it's really interesting. Awesome. Thanks. Yeah, Penn usually has a good point about kind of slowing down and tying into the thesis of the project. It's a metaphor in his face. We wanted this project to give people a reason to slow down and be people and interact. If you go to the story of Traviel Traviel shared with us that at the DMV one day. He's trying to get his paperwork straight and he almost broke down frustrated with paperwork and he had to let the person working the desk know like hey, I've recently been released from prison. Could you possibly assist me and that person slowed down and said baby welcome home. I'll help you with your paperwork. And so this project is three fold we wanted it to one approach the stakeholders and say hey this is this change that's happening in California prisons. This is the impact to people who are incarcerated or formerly incarcerated to see themselves represented in media, three to the everyday gatekeepers in our society. Say hey, you have an opportunity to make a change you might not know it, but you as an employer as an educator as a person working at the DMV. You interact with people who are in this position you can do something to assist them by simply slowing down and working with people. She is so beautiful when I read it on the website I got a little bit teary and it reminded me of how it's so important as you said to slow down, but to interact with people and the way that he said to her so directly I've just gotten out of prison I need help. And instead of her getting angry, it brought out something really lovely and her and it just reminds you the importance of speaking up and asking questions and then listening to what people have to say. I want to end up with this, you know, this small interaction that's incredibly memorable. It said it changes is it changed his reentry trajectory. And I want to ask you to having all these different medias make you write different. Yeah, it does. It does. There's a clip with Lynn that we often share. It's a very sweet clip which talks about enjoying a pumpkin spice latte. It's one of those things where it's like you got to see it and feel Lynn just enjoying that pumpkin spice latte. And if I would have written it and that was cool I would have told the story, but because Lynn tells that story I can write around it. You know and so it makes it, it takes a little weight off my shoulders. That's been my mission I was going to order one of them just to have the feeling like pumpkin. No, but I know you don't. Wait, so working with a writer has it changed your visual approach. Yeah, I mean I could I could just not. I could just focus on staying my lane, instead of you know worrying about the politics or the policy or you know this the story and all the complexities that go along with you know how to represent someone in that format. Yeah, it was it was incredible. I don't know if I want to make a project by myself ever again. It's the same breath though like that means that I can focus on the writing that's front facing and he can do all the emails behind the scenes. It's all about finding the right partner. Have you gotten all curious about picking up a camera. Yeah, I've done all forms I went to school for documentary film. And he did all that all the interviews and when we were filming. Okay, okay. So I'm wondering about when when you're dealing with the subject that's really political and difficult. How do you think about the aesthetics, the beauty, because certainly they're beautiful portraits the websites put together in a way that's going to really encourage the viewer to spend a lot of time there. So yeah, how do you think about the importance of beauty to get people to connect. Yeah, I mean the project isn't. It deals with dark topics but I wouldn't say that I don't think facing life is like subject otherwise like a dark project or a depressing project so it's really like a hopeful project it's really like okay starting from day one. You know, building building a life out here in society. So it was kind of about translating those those moments those like first moments like my first oil change or like you know Jose's first job and like finding those those special moments and and trying to portray those visually. Yeah. How do you think about beauty in your writing. The question brought to mind if we could click on Jose's photo. I can't. Okay, I can't access it. No, at the bottom of Jose's profile. Unfortunately, Jose is the one person profile who has passed. He passed due to complications related to COVID after being released. His story in brief is that he had a life of in and out of detention centers. As a young person he found safety in going to juvenile hall to escape his abusive father. While he was incarcerated for a longer period of time as an adult. He realized he wanted to get his stuff straight so he could be home for his daughter. He gets out he gets on his feet he's operating living life. He passes his final request after passing is to be buried next to his father. And so when he passed Brendan made it a mission to go to his grave site with Jose's fiance and take a photo and there's a subtle pinwheel moving and there's like flowers and it's it's it's heavy it's sweet it's it's it's beautiful. So only I want to ask you like Why did you decide to like put people crimes in your piece, you know, because at your hustle. We try to just let people see people, you know what I'm saying and not say what happened unless is germane to the crime. Was that a big decision for y'all. And if so, why. Yeah, it was hard for me because now I've spent three years with this person right and I need to explicitly say this person took somebody's life and writing that I was kind of beating around the bush and my editor was like, say it like for the reader. This person has told you this and it's something that is we want to understand this person as a fool. You have to understand some of the egregious things that have occurred in their life. So we made a conscious decision to put it in there but not harp on it, but to state it clearly and also make sure that it's sandwiched in between. This is their childhood experience. This is what happened that led to them being incarcerated. This is what they experienced while incarcerated. This is their reentry. And this is where they are now in life. And so you see that full spectrum of a person. Yeah, because that's a hard one man I is certain, like, even with your husband certain cases that people may not want to hear. And we, we, we actually tackled a couple of them, just trying to see how people respond to them, you know, and if we can cover certain topics, you know, so Yeah, a couple of questions about this. How did you think about satisfying people's curiosity versus working as a journalist and artists to do what's right for the project, and then thinking about the people that you are working with so there's like three, there's like this triangle. And where, where did you decide to put the weight for the decision on me. You talk to somebody for three and a half years consistently you get their full life story, and then to have to compress it and fit it into a website. It's like, oh man there's so much left the chopping board, you know. And so those those first edits were really hard. And to hear time and time again like I'm listening to audio people talk about some pretty heavy stuff. I had to step away from the project a lot, but in stepping away from the project that allowed me to re approach the project with fresh eyes and say oh okay I can see how we can simplify this or make sure that everything as much as possible is told in this story. And so, in terms of satisfying an audience. I was really just thinking of like what I need to be clear about this person's story. And I want to make sure that this person is properly represented they gave us their life story. And make sure that the audience understands why I'm telling the story, why these details are included why a pumpkin spice latte significant. Yeah, how did you think about that. The question again. Who, who, where does the responsibility who are you responsible for the audience who you clearly want to affect you want their, their, their attention, and you want their hearts and minds. Or you as an artist and a creative person or the subject that you're dealing with. How do you, how do you think about those three responsibilities and who wins out. Yeah, I mean, when we were very transparent with everyone upfront about, you know, the stories that we were going to tell and you know, yes we're going to mention the crime and know you're not going to have editorial control. And there were some people that we met that were like, I don't think I want to participate in this we're like that's totally fine. But we did end up with our, you know, our incredible participants, all were okay with that from the get go and you know when we put out the project we didn't like run anything by them at first we were very nervous especially pen because he did all the writing he was like, that was Lynn gonna hate me for what I wrote, but everyone was like really positive about everything and how it turned out so that was that was great. So, excuse me, did anyone like didn't want to talk about their crimes because I know sometimes when you have individuals that take someone's life they don't want to get out here and talk about it like that they just want to blend right in and not affect, be it the victims family, or stuff like that. And so you haven't had an issue. No, and I think, you know, back to your question about why, why include the crimes is because not everyone here was directly involved with the taking of a life like not everyone killed someone Melvin Melvin Melvin Melvin's gun was using a murder and a law has now changed in the state but back in the late 80s or the early 90s. If your gun was using a murder then you can get charged with first degree murder. So that's how we ended up with a life sentence. So that's important to know, you know, it was very upsetting to read about some of the reasons that people got life sentences I think there are three people right who I guess is the word accessory. Yeah, that was shocking. I don't want to harp on the crimes but I do have one more question and I'm hesitant to ask it but as Erlan said at your hustle we, we almost never talk about people's crimes unless it's important to the story. And we've pushed back on editors and we've pushed back on listeners who want to know more. And I really stand behind that. Then, when I was looking at your website I found myself wanting to know the crimes. And I was like, Well, how, why is that why is it so different. I'm just curious, I'm curious about what anyone has to say about that like why I'm so clear in our own work, why we do it, but then I had a curiosity when I saw your work. I don't know what that says but it bothered me. Is that the medium because you're in audio and you're reading print with ours or I don't know what it was but I was like, oh curious I want to know. Or is it because you already know yours. Oh my God maybe. Well that doesn't make me very generous to our listeners you want to know. But actually you know what a lot of times I don't know. I don't as I don't ask people unless it's part of the story. I don't want to say safety and security. I want to say it's just a ram of security we don't have to deal with when especially when we dealing with people that's incarcerated. There's a lot of checks and balances so sometimes it's not cool to put it in there but most of the time we want to listen to just hear the story and not be sidetracked by the crime sometimes. Oftentimes you talk to people who are incarcerated correct. And talking to the people we talked to everybody has approached the board and successfully passed the board and they've stood in their story multiple times. They're unfortunately used to telling their story to an audience. And so standing in their story is actually really impressive as a human just yeah. Transparent be transparent after being so long. But I'm also realizing after looking at your project that people have curiosity and it's not always wrong to have curiosity and want to know like it's not always for negative or judgmental reasons it's just human curiosity. So anyway gave me something to think about in our stories and I don't necessarily think we're going to change how we do our stories but it really gave me a lot to think about. And it was something we thought about. Yeah it's a huge conversation it's a really important conversation to have. Because obviously, for any project creating trust with people is really important and they need to know that you're not going to do them wrong. Yeah. Yeah. So, Nigel told y'all that we have a special guest. And she's here her name is Lynn, you want to welcome her to the stage. Round of applause for Lynn please. Hello. Hi. So good to see you. Good to see you too. You've been mentioned already several times. Oh, I know I've actually I have my husband here in several of the ladies that are formerly incarcerated my support system my family. And then over here to your right. Hey. Hello. What's up. And also while we're here for him is here as well from the project. Yes. It's beautiful we've, we've only we've done presentations now about 10 of them over over a dozen over a dozen of them. We've only had two with people who have been featured in the project there. So this this is the first time the whole folks here. So thank you. Yeah thank you for coming up down over. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I'm really. In Fresno now. Yeah. Yeah. A few hours away. Thank you for having me. Yes, yes. So why did you. Well, first of all, how did they get in touch with you? And why did you decide to say yes. To this project? Honestly, I do not remember right now. On common law. Oh, on common law. The uncommon law was a law firm that represented me for my parole board hearing. So I was contacted and I felt that it was really important. Because on common law took my case pro bono, which is at no cost. I'd written them for several years asking, would you consider taking my case? This is the work that I've done since I've been in from starting at the gate up until now. They reviewed it, decided to take me to board. And I was very thankful and grateful for that. It's an opportunity a lot don't have otherwise I would have gone with a public defender. And may have not had the additional work on myself that the uncommon law team really worked with me. And in getting out, I just felt really humbled and really grateful and it was an opportunity to give back and to give a little more insight on the reentry process. And just break some of the stigma with incarceration and reentering back into society because after 20 years, and it was my first offense. It was really, really difficult. And so it was a good give back for me to bring awareness to the community that I was returning to and to educate more people. So what was your first impression of these two gentlemen when you met them. Both Brandon and Penn were really, they have really great kind hearts, really wonderful personalities they were really made me feel really comfortable in working with them. And as a survivor of much working with two men again, a level of safety and trust was there that I felt. It was a little bit of a risk for me but I felt comfortable with them just because of the two men that they are. So it ended up working quite nicely. Pumpkin spice latte. You know what I had heard about it I had to have one. We might as well play that video. The taste of a pumpkin spice latte. I remember seeing it in a magazine going, I want to try pumpkin spice latte I really want to put that on my list of what to do is, and actually going to Starbucks and seeing the busyness of Starbucks now, but having that pumpkin spice latte in my hand and just the first sip of it and I remember I just closed my eyes for a second and I'm like, Wow, something that tastes. It just brought my taste buds to life. It's not taste, it's not instant folders or taste your choice coffee, just being so grateful for for that feeling and then I remember drawing it close and going, Now why are all these people moving so fast, maybe they've had a whole lot of Starbucks coffee. So all right. Show of hands if physically able. If you know what Starbucks is. Okay, cool. Show of hands if you're physically able if you had a pumpkin spice latte before. All right, cool. So when you share this clip, when we take this project to college classes, people who've never been in prison, don't have family in prison. A pumpkin spice latte or something like Oh wait, I can relate to that though. I can relate to wanting that but not having it never having it never have had that. And the conversations that come from that clip are mind blowing to me, because it allows us to make this project more relatable, especially because candidly speaking, a lot of people think of mass incarceration as black and brown men, which there are a lot of black and brown men in prison, but and as a white woman speaking about your incarceration experience, people like what it's happening across the board, everyone and so thank you for sharing that. And thank you for playing that clip. You know, you don't drink tasters and folgers no more. There's nothing wrong with tasters. I got to stay humble and thankful. You know, that's for rich folks. It's good, but there's a lot of hype behind it. I'm good with folgers. I think I switched to tasters, but I got them both. Right. There's so many things about that clip that are really wonderful. One, it focuses on a small detail, which is to me what always makes a story most interesting. That it's about having your first taste of this pumpkin spice and then you think that's the whole story, but then you talk about something to me that's even perhaps more important. And that's seeing everybody rushing around you. And so it has delight and surprise and then something that makes everybody think more deeply about their own experience. And so it's really connective to and I'm wondering about other experiences that you had with this feeling of people rushing around you and maybe maybe feeling like why, you know, was it just that they had too much coffee or is other stuff happening. I think in getting well in reentering society, especially the first few months. I can only like it liken it to having almost an alien experience where you, you know, you're being reintegrated into something foreign and everything was fast. I mean, when I went in in 1998, there was still computers were, I mean, they were there, but they were fairly new. You know, I remember when a cell phone came out and it was like the size of two bricks put together. The beepers were just, you know, we still had beepers, but the just the fast pace of everything was it was mind blowing I mean going into a store like Costco after you're in a contained environment for so long and all the choices I mean, you just get stuck looking at the choices that are there and the opportunity and it's okay to touch something and just the hustle and bustle of how people move without. I don't know lack of empathy. It's just wears human kindness seem to be kind of shoved by the wayside. I mean standing in a line and seeing an elder be bumped, or and nobody's going to say anything. I'm here and how quick everything is I think the even with children being digitally connected, having a conversation like we're having now. A lot of kids don't know how to do it. They don't know how to write in cursive let alone have a conversation and just those subtle little things took some time to get used to it still does. I think just the fast movement of everything people just take a deep breath and just look around at all the beauty that we're surrounded with. But then again, when you don't have it and it's taken from you, the level of appreciation in getting that opportunity, I feel it's almost. It's a humbling responsibility and a reminder of where I was at, and that it can be taken that fast. And so I just, it was, it just took a while that you used to and it still does I just look around and go. How if we could just all pause and just think of what we're thankful for what we're grateful for and what is important. And for everybody that being grateful and being in the moment. Yeah. Yeah. So you talked about finding a community of fellow former lifers when you got out. And I'm sure it has its pros and cons. Do you mind speaking to that. Well, I think what's important in it is one, a lot of the time, let me speak for myself. I'm from originally from another state. So my family wasn't near my blood family. The family of my choosing some of them are sitting in here today that when things were rough when things are tough when I was struggling to find my voice again. There are women in this room today that helped me. Excuse me. They helped me find that. And it's something that when, when losses happened, and you can't go home for that. When you're struggling with something when you're in a college course and you needed help. Anything sisters on the inside were there for you when blood family couldn't be. And in coming out, people that know, know, I don't have to say, I don't know how to do this or I don't understand or I'm feeling a whole lot of anxiety right now, because I don't understand how to do this. Like you were talking about earlier going to the sharing going to the DMV and somebody showing the gentleman kindness that was there. Yeah, you're after going out everything, the process of everything is different even getting on a bus when you first get out it's not like you can put change into anything but you aren't told that when you get out. So form the formerly incarcerated brothers and sisters that know are the ones that you can go to for assistance because they understand. And as opposed to asking somebody who looks at you like, what's your major malfunction how come you don't understand how to, how to do this, even in like navigating and going back and taking more college courses and things even getting a system in the school. People don't understand, but that's why it's important for reentry programs that they have now for formerly incarcerated, because they can help you with those things because they do understand. And I was fortunate enough to go to a veterans reentry program. And the gentleman that were there before I was actually the third only the third female that had been there in that program. So for me it was more the gentleman that were there before, and they were respectful, kind, open, and they understood because they had been there before. So it was already an unspoken system in place of helping the next one. Yeah, reach one teach one. Yeah, on the note of that that transitional home who go back. Who's up who's on the screen and how did you meet him. This is actually my husband Christopher who's here in the front row. He is actually an army veteran. And a former lifer himself, and we were able to meet at the veterans program that we were both at in Monterey California. And he was out for some time before me. And yeah, because that he is the one of the many many miracles in my re reintegration into society. God restores things that were lost from, and I'm just very, I'm grateful every day for him. Thank you. Thank you. So, um, by him stand up man. So, being by him, we go back to like the probably late 80s early 90s in the youth authority. I think we were the only two individuals in the youth authority wearing silk shirts and outfits and everybody else was probably wearing the shirt I got on the day. But we was definitely some youngsters so to see this man doing so good out here and to see that he was part of this project. It was it was really cool so I just want to say I'm proud of you man and I'm glad that you're out here I'm glad you're part of this I'm definitely proud of what you're out here doing helping the community. But I would like to say about this young man, Erline. Yes, we go way back. And so, when I found out what he was doing for the podcast. I was incarcerated I was taking a life as program. And so, I don't know anything about podcasts. And so some staff was saying quitting came to folks, they said if I need to listen to this. I'm not listening to none of that. But I had an illegal cell phone. I knew it was my contact an illegal cell phone. So I turned on this podcast. I'm listening to that voice is kind of familiar. Constance is seeing his face around on the social media news. I know this guy, I couldn't put together mind you, you know late 40s now, my early fix. And so, one day, I reached out to someone I said, can I say your own name. Sure. Sure. You say email from 76 East Coast. Oh, damn, I got to go back. So now we give them people a good understanding of who we are into our maturity. Myself being from the Bay Area and being for LA at the time. Different social geographics was shooting in prison, but not him and I. So our understanding as kids connected us then, but we never knew how we was going to, you know, catch back up now brother and I appreciate you everything you've been doing. Brad and PN. Lynn. Nodging up your entire project. Thank you very much. Thank you 100 years as his project 100 years. Check out his podcast. To be clear, he's, he's doing work. Doing work in Baleo training how often are the trainings. Team work makes the dream work. We have one more question. You have more question, which also can go to the audience but so looking on the website. I came away with some common themes that are challenges for people. And I was wondering if Lynn and both of you could speak to some of the common themes that you, you know, you've experienced with other people have gotten out and things that you discovered through talking with people what are sort of the common challenges and maybe some of the common joys for people when they get out of prison. I think the biggest challenge was technology, because I mean it's ever evolving. I mean I still feel like the smartest woman alive when I can answer my phone and not hang up on somebody accidentally. But yeah, technology hands down is they years back they used to have a reentry class, but it wasn't focused on technology it was more let's get a resume put together. But the challenges that you face when you get out even something as simple as going to getting ID again because after 10 years you're you're a ghost in the system. And I came out I didn't even have the prison for those who have never been incarcerated you have a state issued ID which is your name and the number that CDC issues you but when you go out and you've been gone for years. Getting an ID again if you don't have all of your paperwork, your social security card again your ID, all those things can be very, very challenging. If you don't have somebody assisting with you and finding them. And then just navigating goodness what's a card with a chip in it. How can people don't use a lot of hard cash anymore, those simple things that people take for granted because they haven't been where we've been out is technology is the number one thing because currently the Department of CDC are does not offer a lot when it comes to your, your reentering society after an extended amount of time this is what you need to know. So they only really the only need to know is again the connections with people who've been out before you who've experienced the same thing to help you to help you navigate that because they don't do they don't have the time and the resource and the emphasis isn't there yes there's been some shift in programming in the system right now but when it comes to successful reentry and understanding those very basic things. It has come so in my experience it has come from my peers and but again technology is probably the most challenging thing that I can think of. What would you two walk away with is some of the common common challenges. Details around technology is what got me versus like yeah that Bluetooth that's something that like we kind of just know and didn't think about like Brandon pointed out to us that like in our lifetime human evolution in terms of technology is just like possibly the most ever involved and so that is something that blew my mind the details about what people have missed in the time being away like metal hitting their teeth as we're eating from like utensils you know like fork and knife kind of thing and then the intangible of it's almost like a PTSD being incarcerated and then one of the people we talked to share with us like that like resting mean face that you have when you're incarcerated to like keep people away from you and realizing like you can't have that when you're walking around with your kids or like he's a and so you just can't have that same disposition that one really struck me on the website. Exactly. Somebody else who we talked to like for background shared with us that one of the things that they went to when they first got out was the Warriors celebration parade like championship parade just how paranoid they were about people being in their bubble. And so yeah those are some of the things that really stood out to me. Yeah I mean I think actually when we finished the project I was thinking I was looking at the homepage and having to think at Texas Penn I was like who graduated high school. And I think Lynn you did right. High school and college. So of all eight Lynn is the only one that that completed high school, you know, at high school age. So you know when you when you talk about school to prison pipeline low income zip codes redlining is just like, oh man, you know, you can really things start very young things start very early. Yeah and I'd want to add to some of the, because I went in when I was 27. The youth that came in and their teens, and watching them, you know my sisters that went out before me that were youth and going out as these you know young adult women I remember and when I was working in the PIA optical making there was a girl who was so nervous about getting out because she wanted to know how to drive but she'd never driven a car she went in at like 15. And so I used books and pieces of paper and kind of gave her the idea of the foot pedals and how to turn a car on and things so I think for you, you know, youth that have been in that never went to a prom never graduated high school all the firsts that it made me feel really thankful you know the opportunity to be a mother before I went in to, you know, bring souls into the world to just basic things that people don't think about pen you mentioned like forks and utensils again I remember well you were there the first restaurant that I went to I was nervous to touch them again because we didn't have metal silverware for years, but for somebody who is, you know, youth and didn't have that. It was really, it helped me actually during my incarceration experience to to be around the younger girls at a point after I worked on me and was able to then pay it forward to the younger ladies. I liked working with them because they brought a different element in, but at the same time, it was almost healing because I was separated from my children at that point and I still looked at them from a mother's eye and was able to give them a different insight but then in re-entering, I can only imagine because that's going in as a child emerging as an adult into something completely foreign. Well, I want to, I know that people want to ask questions. So just want to Lynn, thank you so much. And to Darvis and Brandon, thank you. I'm really wonderful. Before we get to questions. Yes. I just want to know, you know, a lot of people ask here hustle, you know, what can they do. Is there a call for action for Faces of Life. Yeah. Every day people that story about the DMV, that could be, I don't know if you're an educator, I don't know if you work at the library, if you work in public service of any sort. Keep in mind that the person that you're talking to has a lived experience that might impact how they interact with you. Take some time, deal with them as people. That's the overall message. Yeah. A lot of the legislation that we mentioned in that video up front, a bunch of that were ballot measures. So ballot measures are everyday voters deciding on these things. I remember when like Prop 57 was on the ballot. So, you know, everyday people are choosing whether or not, you know, this legislation passes and people like Lynn and Erlen come out or not. Yeah. Well, I really love what you said, because I think sometimes people feel overwhelmed that they can't make a difference. But then when you realize that everyone in this room has the ability to be kind to somebody or ask a question or offer help that empowers all of us to make the world a better place. And yes, of course, we want to change the laws, but sometimes that can feel so overwhelming. And again, I love ending with that, that everyone in this room can actually make a difference simply through listening and yeah, being a little kinder. It's a little kumbaya, but really, but it's true. There's a lot of validity there. I want to, I know we're going to open it up. I would be remiss if I didn't. Can we get a mic in Myra's hand please. Please, Myra. Yeah. Myra, thank you so much for being here in brief Myra's relationship with us and this project is one of the sweetest evolutions and like Lynn, you mentioned about like being in contact with men. Myra was very explicit, like I don't talk to men at all, like not dealing with you at all. We got tacos, we broke bread in the middle of breaking bread briefly share this. I cut the meeting short 30 minutes into it. I got a dip. I got to drive back to Sacramento, get my daughter right now. It's like you're driving back to Sacramento and East Oakland. You're driving back to Sacramento, take care of your daughter. But that like dedication to my daughter showed Myra my character and who I am in terms of a father and she recognized that as what you had seen in terms of your grandfather. Correct. This is one of the most important things that I've seen about my grandfather because he was a man who was always there for me. I mean, like, I was a kid and he had wooden blocks, so I could drive his Cadillac because he was always drunk. So, you know, I always wanted to be with granddaddy dry that caddy, you know, but one of the things about pen. You know, so he said, well, let's go out to eat. I'm like, cool. And I was like, where are you going to take me? He said, tacos. I said, oh, yeah, let's go. I said, they better be good. So they were good. But like he said in the process of that, that really threw me a curveball because prior to I had a very, very bitter taste in my mouth for men. You know, past experiences, things that happened to me, how my dad treated my mom, you know, and stuff like that. And so when he told me he was going to get his daughter, it just like, oh, I gotta like this guy. You know, and then Brandon. You had to warm up to me. You didn't like me at first. I really didn't. But my issue with him is, man, when you put that dude behind some cameras, you must do as he says. It ain't no getting around it. You must do as he says. So he'd be like, Myra just move like this. I'm like, move like what he said, we'll just turn right here and I'm like, turn this way. He said like, right there. And I'm like, okay, how long I got to feel like that. You know, but it's true. But in doing that too, I just want both of you men to know that you changed my life. You know, you set a standard for men. And I understand that they don't have to be perfect. You're just who you are. But you with your daughter, but Brandon, when you went to China or whatever that was, I asked him to bring me a present. I think he's a guy he ain't going to remember. You know how men are, right? Well, when he came back, he brought me these little miniature like pillows that have kittens on them that were handmade. And I mean, they are beautiful, you know, and I was like, Wow, you know, you realize you the first guy that ever really gave me something that I'm keeping for the rest of my life. And this project working with them, it did. It changed how I feel about men. Not all men, but I'm willing to give you a chance, you know. And I just, you know, while I have the opportunity, I'd like to give kudos to my partner, because you know, she, she helped me walk through. She helped me navigate a lot when I came home from long distance because she was in LA and I was up here. And I would pick up the phone and be like, honey, and she'll be like, okay, just do this. You know, and like Lynn said, everybody doesn't have somebody. So when you are someplace and you recognize that individual, please help them. You know, people laugh or whatever, and that's on them. But at the end of the day, there may be one day you may need that person because you never know when you're going to see him again. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I think, I think, Anissa, Anissa, are you taking over now? Hello. All right. As a public high school teacher in city, serving mainly black and brown students, thinking about the kids and the statistics for incarceration. How do we prepare our children and ourselves for a world outside of high school and protecting them from becoming one of those statistics. Thank you. Thank you for that too. As to all of you. As a former educator. Can you take that one? I can. Yeah. I think one of the big, one of the things that you can do is listen, listen, be open and offer resources. I mean, the old, you know, quote, it takes a village. It does still take a village. I think now it may take two. You know, just being that listening, opening heart, providing services, offering services, really people listen, but do you listen from your heart? Are you really hearing, if you're, you're talking about students, what this individual has to say, because as an educator, you, you know, you're, you're, you're molding them, you're framing them. So what can you do? Continue with that. But I think a lot of the times. Like now, I mean, I have younger nieces and nephews. They want to be heard. And, you know, that they're that their little voices matter. I mean, they are our future. So if we're not nurturing and loving and educating the future, who's, what is that future going to look like. So we need to take each individual with how would we want to be treated how, you know, hopefully some of us, you know, we grew up and we weren't treated well, but we have the opportunity as educators as, as grown adults to reach out where we are and just little small random acts of kindness to help mold that future because we don't want to see if all of our children end up with the pipeline like Brendan and pen of both mentioned. If, if we ignore them we ignore why are they acting out. If we ignore those cues, and that goes unnoticed, their potential to end up in the system down the road or even as a youth is great, let alone if they have a family or or a mama or a dad who's incarcerated, who cares for that child now. It's a, it can be a community responsibility that we respond to. And I think because California, as you saw by the statistics California is number one in incarceration. So what do we do with all those youth. It becomes a response to a societal responsibility and almost a moral can be a moral responsibility. When a child is ultimately going to be a working adult, by the time, you know, taking care of us when we're older wouldn't we want them to reach their full potential, as opposed to just locking them up and throwing them a key and fend for yourselves and that out of sight out of mind mentality. When, when, when a child is either shut down or acting out. There's some undelt with trauma that that child hasn't received help for. So instead of ignoring it. Let's address those issues. So it doesn't get to a point where they're ending up in state correctional facilities, when it could have if a child is addicted to something it was probably a behavior that was learned in their environment. So how can we unlearn it. And so those are questions that we can ask that we could either be ignore it, or we can be part of the solution not part of the problem. Thank you. Thank you. And a big shout out to our SF USD staff and teachers and librarians, you're doing the work. Question for. Let's go with our question from zoom. What has they been the biggest challenge of making the project. In journalism there's this fascinating 180 that happens from pitch. You know you get excited you got an idea you pitch it, and the editor accepts it and gosh, gotta go do it now. That part. Yeah, the doing it. There's one thing to think about it but then to go to find these people. And like we've could we could have done a film we could have done a reenactment to find the individuals we wanted to make sure that that there are people from clear across the state that women were represented that multiple races different backgrounds and so meeting these check marks. It was difficult at the start and so it took a lot of time for us to do the background research, as well as find individuals to represent the story. And then once we had the individuals was, we were pretty much locked in staying in contact was difficult. And actually condensing people's whole life stories into digestible pieces on the website was difficult. Yeah, I mean to that beginning part of, you know, we initially thought the project to take a year. And it would just be you know so easy and, but it ended up taking like at least six months just to meet everyone and also to do research and to learn and so shout out Nigel because she was one of the people that when we were first starting and we're like, we're like Nigel can we buy you coffee and ask about like what's going on you're like sure. So thank you for that. So educating ourselves finding the individuals doing the work and then once we had it done we had it done about this time last year. I'm finding a publication actually running we're like hey this is a really important story we're on ground zero of like a major shift in how American, the United States prison system is operating. You should run this story, and it took a little while, but we published in April through the Los Angeles Times and so. So the shift you're speaking of and that is, are you talking about the release of so many people because of the pandemic. No, the state of California was federally mandated to depopulate its prisons. So, because it was overcrowded, the prison system as a whole had to get down his population to a point that was still overcrowded on paper. So even before the pandemic, the prison system was slowly but surely be populating and then once the pandemic it, it dropped even further to 100% occupancy at like one point in the middle of 2020, since then it's slowly starting to creep back up. But yes, largely that that's the change that we were talking about. Lynn, what's happened to your brothers and how are they now to my brothers. I have four brothers, one of them actually passed away about a year and a half ago unexpectedly so one of them has passed away. One is raising a family and doing really well. And another is a chef, he's also successful and another one is working and you know they're all working and functional in their own way. All right, as someone who is interested in urban planning. They often think about a car centric suburban American environment and how that impacts individuals ability to connect with society. Did you observe this aspect of constricted environment hindering or otherwise impacting the reentry of formerly incarcerated folks. You might have to say the beginning of that one. It's a deep question it's about urban planning and like car centric world. Yeah, and how we that blocks everybody off from being with each other just clearly saying anything that impacts us impacts people who've been incarcerated 10 fold. So we have housing issues, housing is even more impactful. And I would ask, please my friend, could you pass the mic to Myra. So we could talk about housing specifically for women who've been incarcerated who don't have children, because that's a really interesting point. So one of the problems with reentry for women. If you're not an attic, you have children or a veteran in certain situations or Mary, there, there is no assistance for you. Okay, and that's me. I'm not married. I don't have any children. My family is wherever they want to be and they can stay there. And, you know, there's just, there's a dynamic of things going on when I came home, the hardest thing for me to do was, as I transitioned out of the program I was in, was to find housing, and then it was to find housing at a reasonable price. 13, I mean, you know, like $3,200 for a two bedroom apartment, I'm like, well, I'm barely making you know what I need to make to survive. I had to save $3,000 in order to transition out of the program. And that's what they wanted for a deposit. So what was I supposed to get the rest of it. I got very fortunate through my church. So, you know, I've had this conversation with Brandon MP and one of the things that I'm trying to do is buy a house so that when women lifers come home that are in the situation that I'm in, they have some place to go and get assistance. Because, like I said, once again, hear me clearly, if you're not an addict, or you're a mother with children, or you have a husband or a family, there are no solid resources for single women. There's just none, because you have nothing to give them to get something back. Thank you for sharing. May I do that. And that's actually now in, yeah, I was fortunate enough, like I said, as a veteran to go to a veteran's reentry program. However, after transitioning out of that program, and now being in a different, a different county. I know it says in the thing, it was when I was living in Monterey however now I'm in Fresno County, and there is a large influx of people on probation and parolees and especially for women the resources I went to greet one of the women who came out and where they have them housed is not safe. It's an area that you would like. When I got out, I did not feel comfortable, because there's somebody that can escort me around. It was just, again, it was in an unsafe area there isn't enough housing period for reentry, but especially like my words saying for for women. And that's something actually my husband and I are looking to the future for is we're hoping to implement reentry for women period in the future, because we know how important it is for someone to come out and to to for successful reentry to be able just the safe roof over your head, where you can navigate learn to navigate again, but again that currently the resources aren't there for men and women, but more so for women. And so there is a huge need for that. And we want our communities to be safe that we return to. And as more people come out of the system because the system is changing to be able to continue to work on themselves and to reintegrate into society safely but with that comes, they also need safe and affordable housing so there is a huge need for that. Thank you. So this question has come up a lot during all of the events that we've had and I encourage you to pick up that brochure and look at all of the places that we've been hosting as people who are doing events. What organizations are accepting volunteers to work with incarcerated people, or people who are nearly are newly reentering literary skills etc. I know one massive literary place that takes volunteers. So here, and we work with reentry folks, and we definitely love volunteers but there are so many do any of you have any top choices Lynn. Thank you. I actually currently work for the anti recidivism coalition, and there is an office in LA there is an office in Sacramento, you can volunteer just about anywhere through the anti recidivism coalition. It is a good. They're very reputable. You can look them up on their website, anti recidivism coalition.org in helping people reentry and if you want to really volunteer they have a lot of opportunity there. Yeah, if you go to the project's website facing dot life. If you go on the on the credits page below pen and I there's a special thanks and all of the organizations reentry orgs and everything that we met with at the beginning of the project or that helped us are all listed there any of those they're all mostly California based would be a great place to help and you know we met Lynn at the gate. You know right when she came out, and you know she's saying her family was out of state so it was me there to greet her after 20 years and we never met IRL. And it was two women from the California Coalition for women's prisoners which is a really rad organization that runs on volunteer labor to volunteers met her at the gate, gave her a cell phone and took her to her first breakfast so that's a great. Same on the ear hustle website if you go to the FAQ section we have a list of different organizations that are always looking for volunteers. I would add to California Coalition for women prisoners, root and rebound critical resistance all of us are none. I'm sure all of those may be mentioned on the website as well but all of those are volunteer based. Also you can check out San Francisco public libraries jail and reentry services department on our website so we have a very small and mighty team that serves inside but also answers reference questions from all sorts of prisons almost the largest from the side of the Mississippi from prisons from this side. So there's also a lot of resources on that page. And then if you join us for the reception upstairs there'll be resources up there. There's a little yellow pages up there. Yes Maya, can we get Maya. Let's get Maya Mike again. Myra. Myra. Yes, my alma mater San Francisco Community College. I'm there right now getting my certification for addiction and recovery. And they have a program there they have arc and then they also have. I forget the other one, but they have two programs there and they're constantly looking for volunteers to come and work with us, because all of us aren't like computer literate or they're struggling, you know, uppers downers all around us we're like getting ready to get into that book but just go online and Eric Lewis and Carlos Webster. Those are the two gentlemen that take care of that program. Lots of places for you to volunteer lots or don't hesitate to donate some money. It's like they're gonna be volunteers they got a lot of spots to choose from. And I would say anybody else in the crowd. Can you talk about the role that books played while you incarcerated and what was information access like inside. Books play a big role. I think they play a bigger role when you're in solitary confinement. Because that's all you have sometime is books you might not even have your property. I remember I was in solitary confinement they had lost my property forever. And I remember the one book I read I was crying because it was 1100 pages, and it was it. But yeah books do serve a purpose in prison they do. Did you finish it? I did it took a while it took a I made sure it took a while but I never I would have if I had seen that book. I would have passed it by on a regular you know 1100 I can't do it but books do serve a role because they do take your imagination and take you out of the place you're in and put you somewhere else. Erlan you said it really well yeah books I think they were essential of just reading a book. It does it can take you out of the place still stimulates your imagination it's where a lot of self help and introspection can still take place. There's a lot to be said for a book still valuable on the inside just reading is you know it's a good thing stimulates your mind stimulates everything. And in a, you know, in a proactive way depending on I don't know about reading it, but anyways, I'm not a fan of clowns. But yeah books books were really essential. I mean and even if it's something donating to a library, a prison library, county library books are still a really important resource. While you're inside especially because it does give you opportunities where I you know I could have read a National Geographic book and you know took a trip outside of you know my immediate surroundings. So books are really important. There's a really great website called prisoners literature project, and they do. They send books directly to prisoners who asked for them so they're get requests, and as volunteers you can either straight up by the books that they're requesting, and they'll get them to the books inside. One city one book is doing a great. Well thank you. Yeah, great book right. We do we have one great book which is available on our first floor right now. This is your hustle. Any more questions out there. Anything that are other two subjects from facing life would like to say. For him, Myra. For him, like, oh, 100 is coming with the mic for you. brief I would just like to say the project. What they're doing and about the school of prison pipeline, it needs to be cut. Right. And the support what they action. I back that, you know just keep supporting what they're doing. Everyone come collect come together collectively and just on an understanding base and say hey, we need to say these kids are here so we can save our future. That's all I want to say. Thank you. Drop the mic man. Myra. Myra like I might get on the stage. Y'all look good up there. Um, I think the one thing that I want to say is that this was a journey for us. And I think I speak in volume for all the lifers that we appreciate the honesty and the camaraderie that we gain with these two gentlemen being able to just be ourselves. That's one thing that's really hard is to be yourself all the time, you know, and we were able to do that, trust me, and it was fun. But I encourage you, please, when it comes down to the children, I believe in what Lynn is saying. If you don't listen to what they have to say, you're never going to know what's going on. Please engage in conversation with your children. You know, like, even if it's just 10 minutes, hey, let me get that phone for 10 minutes and let's talk. Don't look at their phone. I mean, you know, I know y'all got them all hooked up anyway with all the tracking them and everything, but that's the one thing that I miss about my mother. My mother passed in 16. I came home in 18. And that's the one thing I wish I could do. I wish she could see this. You know, but like, you know, and even with for him is saying, please pay attention to your children. This world is crazy out there. People are telling them things and showing them things that you just have no idea of what's really going on. So if your kid approaches you and you're doing that job, man, drop that pen, drop that phone, whatever, please, I beg of you to listen. I went to prison when I was 21 years old and I'm 61 now. And my life is gone. Don't do that to your child. If you can prevent it. That's the only thing I'm going to ask of you and beg of you. Give them that 10 minutes. It'll be such a difference in your life. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. My drop. Final words from the palace. Final words from. No, come hang out. Fifth four. Is that where we're going? Elevator straight up. See a glimpse of Brandon and Pindarva's work. It's not moving. It's not subtle. But any of the website will be live up there so we can head up there. The fifth floor, the bridge. It's a little hard to find. Fifth floor west side of the building towards Larkin, the corner. We have some refreshments of food. Come up and join us. Meet us there. We'll be there shortly. Thank you all for coming. Thank you. Thank you.