 Yeah, what's the word of the day? The word is Greg Fry, President of the Hawaii State Bar Association, which is really interesting in ordinary times, but certainly much more interesting here now. So this is Life in the Law, Community Matters, and we're talking with Greg about his term, which is going to be up at the end of December, oh, two years, thank you, a two-year term as President of the Hawaii State Bar Association. Oh, my gosh, two years, Greg. What has it been like? Actually, Jay, what they've done is they've added, as you just correctly indicated, an additional year. They actually call it preceding the President year, which I'm in now. They call it President-Elect. It's virtually the same thing, but you're assisting very directly and as a companion, the existing President, as I do now have a President-Elect working with me. But what has it been like? I have to tell you, it is literally, I think, for anybody in charge of any organization, certainly a philanthropic or a charitable association or board, it has literally been black and white from 2019 into 2020. Anything we thought we were going to do traditionally, both budgeted by way of expenditures as well as traditional projected revenues, literally went out the window starting in March of 2020. And it was almost, take it as it comes, react as you will as we moved forward. Yeah, does that make it easier or harder for you as the President? Thankfully, I have a staff that is unbelievably dedicated and they're very seasoned, but I have to say for myself personally, brilliant question, I'd have to say while many lawyers most are very quick thinkers on their feet and can react, I think, to complex situations quite well and quite complete, every day for me has literally been an adventure, not necessarily overwhelming, but certainly new. So is it harder than what would have been on paper? This month we're going to do A, B, and C. The next month we're going to do D, E, and F. Yes, it's been harder from that standpoint because there were no ABCs, D, E, and Fs. Well, it strikes me just observing you at a distance and through the newsletter and the website that you're writing more, you're more engaged than any President at least in recent times. And I would just guess that you've been putting in 24 by 7 in order to achieve that. Am I right? You're, and I don't just say that because of that observation, you're an extremely detailed thinker and you listen, learn, and watch critically. That's what you do. You're absolutely correct, Jay. The amount of time and energy and effort I've tried to put into communicating on several levels, certainly through great shows like this one. Each time I've been asked, I tell you over and over, I'm privileged to communicate whatever I might be able to to help the audience understand a bit more about what has happened, where we are, and where we're going. I also have to act on many different levels, clearly in our industry as a cheerleader, as a positive-minded thinker, as a we can do this. It's often said, but we can do this together. We can get through this as a business. Many people don't recognize the business of law and how difficult that is and how it's been impacted. I have that aspect together with the business of the association, as well as my own business in trying to keep that going at the same time. 24-7 is a rather accurate observation, if I do say so myself. You must love what you do. I think you do love what you do. You love the communication part of it. You love the leadership part of it. Frankly, it seems to me that you love the challenge part of it, especially in the time of this great challenge. We've talked personally about how well you knew my father, and although he's been gone for so many decades and far too early, I think you see in me a lot of him. There's a couple of ways to get through a door. You could open it or you could break through it. Currently, under COVID, a lot of doors are shut. I don't have a problem breaking through doors in order to get to the other side. Quite frankly, I'll be honest to help and to guide whomever needs a little help and a little guidance, and that can be our fellow attorneys. That could be people who work within the law and in the delivery of legal services and the committees that I'm on to ensure that people still have their time in a courtroom before a judge to get their problem solved. That's another area of trying to help. Gee, they must pay you a lot of money for being the president of the Hawaii State Bar Association. You must be rolling in dough. What do you think, Rick? I'm rolling, but it's not in dough. As you know and you've heard it and you've done it and you've lived it and many of us have. Philanthropic jobs often are the hardest ones you will ever take on. There is no payment for me and you've heard it from me and I mean it. I'm a third generation attorney. To be elected by those I work with, I respect folks like you, the vaulted and revered three dot attorneys and we all know what that means. To have their faith, your faith, the collective faith to try my best. To me, that's an honor that I will forever cherish. And if I have to work really hard in order to do the best I can, I have no problem doing that. I was only joking. I know you don't make a dime out of this. And really the question is, how can you practice at the same time? Practice must have taken a reduction over the course of the last year. My law partner for many, many decades, Bradley Coates is a quirky fellow. You've had him online many times. He's a brilliant fellow. He's probably the greatest human being to work with for as many years as I have worked with. But he's a forward and master plan thinker. So we, for many years as the bar was trying to get me there and trying to get me to come back on the board after having been on for many years, decades ago, we decided what we needed to do in order for me to step a little to the left in order to allow those I work with to take over. But I have to say, Jay, because of COVID, I didn't get to move over as far as I wanted to because we had to make as so many businesses have to make very tough decisions that required all of us to tighten up pretty heavily and to do a lot of things and a lot of more things than we might have otherwise wanted to. Well, you know, it strikes me. And I say this as distinguished, perhaps from other bar presidents that I have known and seen is that you are the kind of guy who's at the center of the, you're the hub, you're the hub. And I see what you're writing and I see what you're speaking, you know, in public. And I sense that you are a connector. I like your reaction of this. You connect the process in the courts. You connect the lawyers who are practicing. You connect their various organizations. You are at the center of the practice and the institution of the practice of law. Do you see it that way? Am I just, you know, off base here? Or am I right to say that you are the center of the Hawaii practice community right now? Interesting. I'll give you two quick answers to that. I think every bar president and you've known and walked with so many of them over the years and interviewed them and talked with them and you know them personally for decades back. I think every bar president has that responsibility and duty. I think COVID, however, when I have a board meeting, I think exactly the way you just spoke. What do I mean? I have a grid with 25 people in thumbnail pictures and they're all around me. And there I am in the center guiding that meeting remotely. It enhances what has always gone on, but it really makes me understand that I have to more than ever keep people engaged, interested, devoted, loyal, and I use this word a lot and it isn't one, but I enjoy it, stick to it-ness. Just keep going forward. So yeah, I see it visually now more by looking at a computer screen so often, but I do believe exactly as you said it is how every bar president needs to approach this job. Well, I'd like to spend a little time with you, Greg, on the state of the bar, if you will. You know, we've had COVID and a lot of people are leaving the state. You know, I don't speak for the lawyers now. I don't really know, but a lot of ordinary folk are leaving the state. They can't get a job. They can't make a living. They don't have enough money. They don't have a home. It isn't working for them anymore. And so they're taking a plane. And, you know, last year we had a diminution of something like 25,000. This year we have like three times that of people leaving the state. And that's probably forever. And I'm wondering, are lawyers leaving the bar? Are they leaving the practice? Because if people don't have money, then there are fewer clients. In the client pool, if there's no economic activity or very little economic activity, there are fewer business matters to handle. So what is the state of the bar this year? Great question. And we've been working on a lot of levels to determine that with more accuracy. We all have our questions. We all have our ideas in any industry, including our own. As it relates to the Hawaii State Bar Association, there's a couple of levels. One, we have done a survey. Surveys are only as good as people's energy in committing to responding. But we've done a survey. Many of the questions are exactly as you've asked. Are you intending? What are you going to do? How much longer? That's number one. Number two, we recognize fully that most of our revenue, in fact, the lion's share of it comes from bar dues, even though the association gets a small amount of the overall bar dues. One of the things we're trying to gauge is exactly what you said. How many folks, when it comes time to pay for your admittance into the next year, are going to say to themselves, I was kind of deciding to work a couple more years. But you know what? It's going to be too hard to ramp up and get back to parity. I'm going to give it up now. And just decide to go into inactive status or to resign from the bar because they're literally going to retire. Or, and we're worried about this, but it's a reality. People are having trouble paying their bills. So how many of those that don't pay timely are simply because they want to work, they are working, but they didn't have exactly the amount of money they needed on that particular due date to send a check over. So that's all of concern to us now. One thing I'm hearing in private discussions regularly with attorneys all over this community is we're waiting out our lease. We're waiting out our office space. We have had to downsize or shift or refocus. We're going to do something different, whether that is get a smaller space or work from home, create a fully operational office in their home and deal with whatever consequences tax wise, they might get some benefit. But that being said, they're waiting out. And those, if I go to 10 big law firms and knew that I was going to be able to count on an average of 30 dues paying lawyers from the small to the tall. And now they've dined downsize to half. Where did those others go? Did they find a job? Are they going to try to put out their own shingle? These are all unanswered questions that we're trying to chase down and we're working on next year's budget right now. And boy, is it a challenge in deciding what revenues. We know where we're down on our revenues. We know where we've saved money on our expenses because we're not traveling. We're not going to conventions. We're not doing a lot of things we otherwise would do. But it's a crisis, not unmanageable, but it's a concern across the board. Well, I have to look into the future and see what it's going to be in a few months. Might be worse, might be better, might be worse. So you're also at the hub of the institutional aspect of the profession. For example, all the access to justice programs that C.J. Rectonwald likes. And there are many of them. We've been interviewing them in anticipation of the pro bono program, which is this Friday they're doing a big webinar. We're helping them on that. And what I get is there's a lot of people being honored for their pro bono activities. But pro bono by definition means you don't get paid. And I really wonder if a lawyer and people say, oh lawyers, they make so much money. Not true. There's a lot of lawyers that are not making much money, especially now. So if a lawyer is having trouble earning a buck, how can he put in pro bono time? Because that's a lot of time. Sometimes you're committed to a pro bono case and you wind up putting tons of time into that to the exclusion of all other activities. Then I wonder how that's doing. How do you see that? Are lawyers here in this community able to put in the pro bono time that they used to? Or are they getting tight on that? Great question. First, I have to commend your organization. Think Tech Hawaii. Without you, so many organizations, including the HSBA, could not put forth these large virtual tasks. I am going to be part of the pro bono celebration. I know how intricately involved you are. And think Tech Hawaii. Mahalo for that. It couldn't be done without you. I'll do your question. Here's a hard reality, Jay. A hard one, but maybe fortunate. There are lots of lawyers right now without jobs. Those lawyers are licensed. Those lawyers can work if they could just be able to work. There is a segment of attorneys right now. That's not to say the ones who normally give pro bono work aren't still doing it. But any slack that's being picked up is being picked up by lawyers who I think and I have talked to who have said I'd rather do a little bit of work, even if I'm not getting paid to keep myself skilled, keep myself polished, keep myself home. And I feel good about it, even though it doesn't pay the bills. Yeah, wow. So how do you spend your day doing this stuff? I'm trying to slip into your skin, Gray. I imagine you're on the phone a lot. I imagine now in the time of COVID you're doing a lot of Zoom and other remote programs. I imagine that in years past it was a matter of physical meetings, but now it's remote meetings and there are more of them. And there are more people involved. And in a funny way, Zoom makes us more efficient. How are you spending your day, Gray? It's interesting. Not only does it make us more efficient, and you've been at that cutting edge of IT and that type of efficiency long before we ever smashed into COVID. And when Isaac Newton, I think of that particular vein, but here's, not only are you more efficient, but you're more accessible even if you don't want to be. In other words, they know I'm in my office. They know that they can coordinate. Hey, are you available for a virtual meeting in 20 minutes? One half hour, one, two hours. What am I going to say? I'm going to another meeting? Of course I'm not. I'm here and I'm doing lots of these here. Absolutely correct. What's my daylight? I literally, Jay, have four accordion files with HSBA stuff that we constantly shift from left to right, front to center, back and forth with my paralegal who literally is as well versed on HSBA matters that she is anything in my other areas of my life, including my law life. And she just literally types up stuff for me ahead of time, shows it to me, tells me you need to answer this person, that person, or the next person. And that's what I do a little bit each day. It's changed, though, from your description of it. It's changed from the ordinary practice, the ordinary rhythm, if you will, of a daily, you know, day in the practice of law. And you've seen it, not only, you know, on your own account for your own practice and as, you know, an official of the Bar Association, but also, you know, the people who are out of the, at the spokes of that, of that wheel, you know, the far end of all the people that you traffic with. And I wonder what your thought is about what this is going to be like, what's it going to be like? The courts are changing, arbitration. We had a program, Bob Toyapuku last week, about arbitration, court ordered a next arbitration. We have, you know, the pro bono organizations are operating differently. It's all different. And it's all, you know, it's all happening. The change is at a rapid speed. And I say to myself, well, you know, we're going to be out of this in some way. The light at the end of the tunnel, maybe not right away, but say next summer, a year, who knows what, but something like that. And then it's going to be more, less abnormal and more normal, if you will. So the question is, how is the practice of law going to be different? How much of what we are learning now is going to stick? The courts, the arbitrators, the Bar Association, the lawyers in general. And for that matter, the clientele. It's interesting. I have appeared at lots of forums of late that speak to exactly what you raise. We speak of the new normal. But once we get back to whatever was close to normal, will we return to where we were? My prediction, working with the committee of operational solutions alongside with the chief justice and all of the senior and the judges across the state on a regular basis, trying to create access, trying to create efficiency virtually. It is my firm belief that much of the virtual applications that allow for perhaps, I'll call it lesser proceedings. I don't mean that in a disrespectful way, maybe things from trial down. I think everything that's being thought of now is with an idea that much of it will remain after COVID is contained in a way that we can go on with our lives in whatever level we're allowed to go into a normal life. But the people, the consumers of our product, the high price of lawyering are going to demand. I don't want you driving all the way out to court and spending two hours on the road. I want you to press a button because the total billing is going to be that much less than it was before. I think people who have learned how to do this in that committee, one of the biggest concerns is, oh my gosh, will the litigants be proficient enough on a Zoom application or a Webex application or a like application? And it turns out, Jay, and you probably know this better than anybody, that it is in fact the parties, the community that's far more well versed and comfortable in a virtual situation than most lawyers who had to play catch up to learn it. And so the more learned the community comes, the more they're going to demand efficiency that for the last year and maybe into the next year has been defined as virtual proceedings, virtual meetings, virtual work from a legal standpoint. You know, I have many other questions and areas to discuss with you about how the Bar Association has worked and is working differently these days. But I'd like to skip to one thing that I think we really need to cover. And that is the rule of law. We have several shows on Think Tech to deal with what Trump has done and will do when he gets back, as and when he gets back. And it has been in derogation in the views of many people of the rule of law. And we are about to see an election where not everybody agrees to be bound by the result. We are about to see an election where there has been suppression and violation of constitutional norms already and so forth. I could go on. And Hawaii, thank goodness, Hawaii doesn't really have that kind of issue locally. But every lawyer, every member of the Bar who is sworn in swears to abide by the Constitution and in essence the rule of law. And I wonder what your thoughts are about that. Are we performing our sacred duty to advance the Constitution and the rule of law? What else do we as a profession need to do now in these difficult and dynamic times? We need to talk about it a lot more, Jay. We need to have forums like all of these other forums dealing with COVID and how our businesses are going to go forward. That's an offshoot of our job and our responsibility that needs to be dealt with directly, especially in these fractured times in terms of distance and space. We can't get together in a room in a circle and talk about these important things. We need to do it in virtual on that issue alone. I think sometimes that critical responsibility is being blended all too freely with everything else we got to deal with. So I think we've got to paint it a little bit different color, perhaps neon so we can see it at night. And then we need to put that stick up in the air and hold it pretty aggressively so that we can have greater discussions on that. Yeah, what Shakespeare said, the first thing we do is kill all the lawyers. I think he was joking about it. I hope he was joking about that. The fact is that the lawyers are the ones who facilitate the community, the society, the civilization, and certainly this nation. And the lawyers have a special duty. They have to see that now. Right. But we are faced with not just COVID, not just a dynamic practice situation, but a dynamic government and a dynamic change to respect for the rule of law. And I'm so glad that's the way you feel. You are performing fabulous duties for all of us, Greg. And I really appreciate it as I appreciate you're coming on the show. There's another show in your future coming soon, Greg. I always look forward to that. It's a privilege to spend time with you, Jack. Thank you, Greg Fry, the president of the Hawaii State Bar Association, looking forward to more.